MADE In Britain labels could soon disappear under new regulations being considered by the European Union.
Brussels officials are planning a shake-up of market rules that will mean that the country of origin is determined by the most expensive element in a product. A handbag designed and produced in England but using Italian leather would have to be labelled “Made In Italy”. The move has outraged many British manufacturers. Some are believed to be threatening to give up the labels altogether rather than risk costly fines from Brussels.
www.express.co.uk/news/uk/421416/EU-threat-to-Made-In-Britain-labels (other news media covering the story are also available)
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What are the items average consumers can buy still made in Britain?
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>>What are the items average consumers can buy still made in Britain?
makeitbritish.co.uk/
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Cars, good quality shoes and clothes, a lot of food stuffs, airliners (parts made in UK but assembled in Toulouse) military aircraft, jet engines (Rolls Royce Trent)
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To those who love the EU so much, be careful what you wish for and to those who dont like it, do something about it.
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Why would this news item necessarily and automatically be a disbenefit to the UK, and not other countries? Surely the effects would be equal across the Union?
I'm not arguing in favour or against as I don't have access to any evidence in either direction, but as usual the EU antis are out shouting "Boo" because an article's got the word "Europe" in it, and have as limited grasp of the idea/its potential consequences as I do.
It's been written by an news outlet with an agenda, and yet you take it at face value. Par for the course, of course.
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We make an awful lot of stuff - we are very good at doing high value stuff, maybe the low value stuff will come back as well.
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>> Why would this news item necessarily and automatically be a disbenefit to the UK, and
>> not other countries? Surely the effects would be equal across the Union?
>>
Because our spineless politicians will comply with every letter of it, the rest of Europe will give it a good ignoring.
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Ah yes. Carry on up the Cliché. Of course. Swallowing everything the tabloids say again.
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Only when it suits the required view.
Everything that gives the required opinion is clearly gospel, whereas everything else is [insert opposition] propaganda.
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>> but as usual the EU antis are out shouting "Boo" because an article's got the word "Europe" in it <<
Except of course nobody actually did prior to you making comment.
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If it is the Daily Express it's spherical objects.
It IS the Daily Express.
It IS Spherical Objects.
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>>Except of course nobody actually did prior to you making comment.
Ummm, not looked at the thread title then?
Or indeed 20 minutes before the steering-wheel clutching pyscho made his comment.....
"To those who love the EU so much, be careful what you wish for and to those who dont like it, do something about it."
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>>Or indeed 20 minutes before the steering-wheel clutching pyscho made his comment.....<<
You think suggesting people are cautious is psychotic?
You think suggesting that if people dont like the sound of something they should perhaps do something about it is psychotic?
I think you, like the shrill Renault driver, are drinking too much coffee. Chill for heavens sake, we know you worship at the EU altar, you dont need to prove your worthiness at every opportunity, I am sure they will show you the secret handshake one day :-)
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I think you're a fool. And I already know the secret sign to use.
However, thank goodness you exist, it limits the danger that groups like UKIP will ever run the country whilst retaining enough noise to keep the others awake.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Mon 12 Aug 13 at 18:29
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>>I think you're a fool <<
I see you avoided my questions, too hard to answer without looking like a fool, I suspect since neither caution nor taking an active role changing things you disagree with are infact foolish in a civilised society.
What is amusing is that you really do think you know anything about which you talk, you see I know facts because I am there in person, you simply project your baseless assumptions onto anyone in UKIP in the absence of any genuine knowledge, other than the cartoons you read written by people with the same skewed view as yourself.
There was a time when I felt the need to defend supporting UKIP, but now I know how little you know. That isnt annoying anymore but it is funny, I pity you.
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Thank you for proving it.
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>>Thank you for proving it <<
Only to you sweetheart ;-)
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>> the shrill Renault driver
Oh the irony, coming from a UKIP candidate. Delicious. Keep 'em coming.
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>>Oh the irony, coming from a UKIP candidate. Delicious. Keep 'em coming. <<
I know, I thought that :-)
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>>
>> I'm not arguing in favour or against as I don't have access to any evidence
>> in either direction, but as usual the EU antis are out shouting "Boo" because an
>> article's got the word "Europe" in it, and have as limited grasp of the idea/its
>> potential consequences as I do.
>>
Presumably this is the EU's attempt to end the current madness where a product is labelled "Made in a country" when all that happens in that country is that the "Made in.." sticker is put on it, the rest of the action happens in China/Poland/wherever. Seems reasonable enough to me. I'm having to get to grips with this for my current client, as the value of product that's sourced within the EU is taxed differently than that sourced outside. So country of origin becomes a big issue.
Last edited by: spamcan61 on Mon 12 Aug 13 at 17:59
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I'm dying to ask FoR - how do you feel about Scottish and/or Welsh independence ?
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>>I'm dying to ask FoR - how do you feel about Scottish and/or Welsh independence ?<<
Easy one for me. While I think the Union is generally positive, I would be an utter hypocrite to deny either the Welsh or Scots the right to self-determination while arguing that the UK should have the right.
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I would be
>> an utter hypocrite to deny either the Welsh or Scots the right to self-determination while
>> arguing that the UK should have the right.
>>
And therein lies the fallacy at the heart of UKIP and its supporters, that the UK has no right of self determination. Let's have a look at the list of bills before the UK Parliament for 2013 and see how many are EU edicts:
services.parliament.uk/bills/
Hmm. Fair bit of self determination going on there.
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>>And therein lies the fallacy at the heart of UKIP and its supporters, that the UK has no right of self determination.<<
You deal in absolutes because it looks dramatic when infact membership of the EU is full of overlap and partial integration when it comes to self-determination. We have a fair amount of control remaining, I am not saying we dont. Scotland and Wales have a degree of self-determination too but I respect their choice to either extend that further or fully.
>>Hmm. Fair bit of self determination going on there.<<
Indeed, a fair bit, I have never claimed that the UK Parliament plays no part although I am certain you would like me to.
You are not interested in the views of people who are different from yourself, thats ok many people are like that, but I wont be drawn into your absolutism, it isnt how I feel about these issues and I will retain a more nuanced view no matter how much you try and push it.
I joined UKIP on the understanding that they would be pushing a more balanced agenda and my role as a member is to make sure the people within the party who take a black and white view of things become a minority, it is however a process that takes time.
Contrary to what you may think, the EU is rarely discussed and that you give the impression you imagine we all stand around throwing darts at a dartboard with the face of Barroso pinned to it rather underlines to someone on the inside how misinformed you are. I dont blame you for that, you get suckered in by what you read in your favorite newspapers which feed your prejudice, but to me your arguments are no more intelligent than Nick Griffin claiming that indigenous British people actually exist.
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You said: "I would be an utter hypocrite to deny either the Welsh or Scots the right to self-determination while arguing that the UK should have the right. "
Implying that we have no/are planning to give away our evident self determination. Both of which would be fallacious in the extreme.
But well done for the back peddle once called on your inaccurate soundbite.
As I've said before, I voted UKIP years back, circumstances change and my opinion has changed. I don't especially think I'm the closed minded loon you would like me to be. There's a phrase about glasshouses, and one about ladies protesting too much.
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Apologies for the horrific spelling mistake there. Back pedal, of course. Blast this edit limit.
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>>Implying that we have no/are planning to give away our evident self determination. Both of which would be fallacious in the extreme <<
I am in my 30's ( plenty of years left ), I know that the pro-EU lobby wants complete integration at some point and there is a strong political will on mainland Europe, it wants the UK inside that union and I am not keen on that so I feel it is more effective to resist now rather than further down the line.
It is not about whether politicians WILL do something, it is whether they MIGHT continue a transfer of powers as a Labour/Lib Dem or coalition may well wish to in a future government - I have alot of years left to consider.
>> I don't especially think I'm the closed minded loon you would like me to be. There's a phrase about glasshouses, and one about ladies protesting too much. <<
Well I hope you arent, but you sound like one sometimes when people hold a different view.
I understand many of the arguments of the pro-EU lobby, I actually do take the time to absorb them and understand why they take the view they do, but that doesnt mean I feel I can agree - whisper it, I used to believe in an EU state so please dont think I always felt as I do - what happened was I spent alot more time learning about politics and especially about how things were done and by what people, that is what changed my mind - the actual purpose of the EU isnt an especially bad one but I have come to believe far more strongly in more localised politics and the EU is about as far from localism as you can get, so for me the opposite end of how I want politics to engage in peoples lives. It was actually meeting my local councillor that really nailed down for me why the EU is so incapable of a meaningful connection with the individual citizen.
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>> What are the items average consumers can buy still made in Britain?
Top Gear showed quite a few the other day.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=evxaVdzrYaY
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>> What are the items average consumers can buy still made in Britain?
Church's shoes. www.church-footwear.com/en/UK/history
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>> >> What are the items average consumers can buy still made in Britain?
>>
>> Church's shoes. www.church-footwear.com/en/UK/history
Church's do not market or sell to the average consumer.
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>> >> >> What are the items average consumers can buy still made in Britain?
I've got one of these:
www.crosslee.co.uk/english/index.html
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>> >> >> What are the items average consumers can buy still made in Britain?
>> >>
>> >> Church's shoes. www.church-footwear.com/en/UK/history
>>
>> Church's do not market or sell to the average consumer.
>>
I buy them and I consider myself to be average. I have an average income for a pensioner. I live in an average property. I buy an average car and I keep it for an average length of time. I'm average.
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>> I buy them and I consider myself to be average. I have an average income
>> for a pensioner. I live in an average property. I buy an average car and
>> I keep it for an average length of time. I'm average.
You are far from average, Average people don't buy Church's shoes. Average pensioners don't have the disposable income to spend on expensive footwear and new cars.
Last edited by: VxFan on Tue 13 Aug 13 at 21:10
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Truly, the Internet can provide almost anything. No clue as to its quality of course.
www.pensionspolicyinstitute.org.uk/default.asp?p=83
Shows the average pension as of 2012, both occupational and personal.
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Not many people could justify paying those prices for a pair of shoes, perhaps even our shoe guru on here? (Sorry Humph) Let alone an average pensioner.
They are premium shoes. I wish I had L'Escargot's pension awaiting my retirement!
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>> Not many people could justify paying those prices for a pair of shoes,
I can and I have. With good shoes you only pay once when you are flush.
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I wouldn't justify to myself paying £400+ for a pair of shoes, certainly not over £1,000. I could buy a £500 pair of shoes each month I suppose but I don't.
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£500 for an awesomely comfortable and long-lasting pair of shoes isn't so insane.
Other than formal occasions, however, my feet have been clad in Adidas Samba (blue suede ones) trainers for more than a decade.
People paying £1000+ for a car satnav that has less use than a Tomtom has always amazed me.
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>>£500 for an awesomely comfortable and long-lasting pair of shoes
But they won't last if you use them for £500 worth surely?
So is one pair better for £500 or... 5 pairs at £100 each? or.......
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>> >>£500 for an awesomely comfortable and long-lasting pair of shoes
>>
>> But they won't last if you use them for £500 worth surely?
>>
>> So is one pair better for £500 or... 5 pairs at £100 each? or.......
you get your 500 quid pair repaired.
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Last edited by: L'escargot on Wed 14 Aug 13 at 09:37
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>> I buy them and I consider myself to be average. I have an average income
>> for a pensioner. I live in an average property. I buy an average car and
>> I keep it for an average length of time. I'm average.
>>
Looking at those prices, hell's bells! You have a very different idea of average to most people. My car is worth less than many of those pairs of shoes.
Last edited by: VxFan on Wed 14 Aug 13 at 01:27
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>> Looking at those prices, hell's bells! You have a very different idea of average to
>> most people. My car is worth less than many of those pairs of shoes.
>>
Having read about what cars other Car4players have, then my car is very much average for this forum.
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>> >> Looking at those prices, hell's bells! You have a very different idea of average
>> to
>> >> most people. My car is worth less than many of those pairs of shoes.
>> >>
>>
>> Having read about what cars other Car4players have, then my car is very much average
>> for this forum.
>>
Oh I wasn't knocking your choice, just that people with fairly new cars and have shoes that cost hundreds of pounds wouldn't met my idea of average.
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>> Looking at those prices, hell's bells! You have a very different idea of average to
>> most people. My car is worth less than many of those pairs of shoes.
>>
One of the big advantages of buying good quality all-leather shoes is their good durability. I have Church's shoes that I bought in about 1970. They're still stylish, still in good condition and still polish well. The all-leather construction is much kinder to your feet and, as Zero said, when the sole wears through they will be able to be repaired. The cost per year of those shoes will undoubtedly be much lower than the cost of the cheap Clarks shoes that I bought recently.
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Isn't this all hypothetical...I was under the impression that we haven't made anything since 1993...
Seriously though, why do companies need "Made in..." labels? So they can charge people more for MIBritain, rather than MIChina...because people are too ignorant to research which is a better quality item, and rely upon the deeply unreliable proxy of which country it was made in?
Take all the money spent on this nonsense, and use it build a chain of adult colleges, where people are taught basic research skills...and pastry making...
Last edited by: SteelSpark on Mon 12 Aug 13 at 18:18
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>>
>>
>> Take all the money spent on this nonsense, and use it build a chain of
>> adult colleges, where people are taught basic research skills...and pastry making...
>>
And infringe people's human rights to spend money as they please getting obese and fatties through drinking fizzy colas and eating pies and pastries?
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The proposal would allow a “Made In” label to be displayed only if at least 45 per cent of a product’s “value content” comes from the country specified.
So, in what way is that an unreasonable proposal?
Anyway, the Germans oppose it, so it will never happen, but lets not let that get in the way of another groundless EU scare story.
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Products are "made" all over the place, and hardly ever have 100% components, raw materials, labour, capital, and assembly in any single country.
They need something like food labels:
China 95%
Germany 4%
UK 1%
Warning - may contain nuts.
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>> Warning - may contain nuts.
>>
So you're suggesting it for mens undergarments as well then?
Last edited by: VxFan on Tue 13 Aug 13 at 10:44
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Why cars don't come with "Made in ....." labels?
Although one can figure out by parsing the complex chassis number.
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>> Why cars don't come with "Made in ....." labels?
Some come with an "assembled in ......" stickers on the windscreen or stuck somewhere else.
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>> >> Take all the money spent on this nonsense, and use it build a chain
>> of
>> >> adult colleges, where people are taught basic research skills...and pastry making...
>> >>
>> And infringe people's human rights to spend money as they please getting obese and fatties
>> through drinking fizzy colas and eating pies and pastries?
Well, they won't need to buy pastries when they've been trained how to make them.
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>> Isn't this all hypothetical...I was under the impression that we haven't made anything since 1993...
>>
>> Seriously though, why do companies need "Made in..." labels?
It's for the benefit of people who like to support British industry and British workers.
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>>It's for the benefit of people who like to support British industry and British workers.
Well, it's really for the benefits of companies who feel their sales will be improved by a "Made in..." badge.
And the squealing is going to come from companies flying the "Made in Britain" sales pitch, whose products are NOT made here.
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We could always do what the rest of Europe already do with many EU directives - ignore it.
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Part of a xenophobic, but interesting viral email sent to me the other day
"Nowadays, Chinese businessmen know that consumers do not prefer products "MADE IN CHINA ", so they don't show from which country it is made.
However, you may now refer to the barcode - remember if the first 3 digits are:
690-692 ... Then it is MADE IN CHINA
00 - 09 ... USA & CANADA
30 - 37 FRANCE
40 - 44 GERMANY
471 .... TAIWAN
49 ... JAPAN
50 ... UK"
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Certainly xenophobic, but certainly not accurate
www.hoax-slayer.com/product-bar-codes.shtml
link fixed
Last edited by: VxFan on Tue 13 Aug 13 at 12:42
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>> Certainly xenophobic,
>>
Why is it xenophobic for a Chinese business man to say that Chinese products are not popular? I think the word is Oikophobic.
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My experience of made in China is rubbish.
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Huge in flux of Chinese cars into South America.
And most of them of a quality like they were made by British Leyland. Misfitting panels, cheap plastics, and bits falling off.
But there are lots of them, and they will get the quality sorted eventually.
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>> Huge in flux of Chinese cars into South America.
I was wondering where do they sell all those Chinese made cars.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_automobile_production
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This is about a year old.............
Chinese cars cover 12.7 pct of Chilean market, ranking 2nd
SANTIAGO, Jan. 9 (Xinhua) -- Chinese manufactured cars took 12.7 percent of the Chilean market share in 2011, ranking second among its competitors, according to data published by the National Automotive Association of Chile on Monday.
Technological progress, competitive prices and reliable quality are the main factors that led to the better sales of Chinese cars on the Chilean market, newspaper El Mercurio said.
Ramiro Urenda, general manager of Derco, a company which represents some Chinese carmakers like Great Wall, Geely, Changan and Jac, said that the technological progress of some Chinese trademarks was really "impressive."
General manager of Great Wall, Thibaud Aymeric, vowed to "break some myths," noting that in 2007 people thought those cars were cheap, with unreliable quality and copied designs. "Perhaps we could demonstrate we had first-level products," he said.
"The competitive prices of the Chinese autos and the kind of equipment are many times better than their competitors," said Marcial Larenas, commercial manager for the Chinese automaker Chery in Chile.
In 2012, the goal for the Chinese automakers is to reach a market share of 18 percent.
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>>But there are lots of them, and they will get the quality sorted eventually <<
When they do I suspect it will be a tough time for the established players. I had a look around a Great Wall Steed recently - galvanised, 6 year warranty and decently cheap to buy - reasonably well made too, they are nearly there already.
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Cars are expensive in South America, but people aspire to large SUV / Pickup / 4x4 so cheap Chinese models are attractive.
The Great Wall stuff is quite good, but some of the other models are awful. Most of them look like copies of other manufacturers models, albeit not very well done.
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If you're really interested (and you'd have to be the way this site formats stuff!!)
Number 32 is fun.
The table is position, Brand, Number sold, %. New cars, 11 months of 2012.
Bear in mind that this shows brands, not country of manufacture.
Chile 11 months 2012 – brands:
1 Chevrolet 51,032 16.7%
2 Hyundai 31,960 10.4%
3 Nissan 31,231 10.2%
4 Kia 26,206 8.6%
5 Toyota 23,797 7.8%
6 Suzuki 15,967 5.2%
7 Ford 9,793 3.2%
8 Peugeot 7,976 2.6%
9 Mitsubishi 7,832 2.6%
10 Chrysler/Dodge 7,508 2.5%
11 Great Wall 7,478 2.4%
12 SsangYong 7,464 2.4%
13 Mazda 7,242 2.4%
14 Volkswagen 6,109 2.0%
15 Samsung 5,011 1.6%
16 Chery 4,836 1.6%
17 Citroen 4,649 1.5%
18 Mahindra 3,933 1.3%
19 Fiat 3,920 1.3%
20 JAC 3,734 1.2%
21 Subaru 3,599 1.2%
22 Renault 3,334 1.1%
23 Mercedes 3,085 1.0%
24 Honda 2,790 0.9%
25 BMW 2,298 0.8%
26 Geely 2,218 0.7%
27 BYD 2,113 0.7%
28 Audi 2,052 0.7%
29 Volvo 1,729 0.6%
30 Hafei 1,655 0.5%
31 Lifan 1,508 0.5%
32 MG 1,267 0.4%
33 ChangAn 1,237 0.4%
34 DongFeng 1,053 0.3%
35 Daihatsu 857 0.3%
36 ZX Auto 840 0.3%
37 Haima 780 0.3%
38 Zotye 775 0.3%
39 ZNA DongFeng 648 0.2%
40 Skoda 573 0.2%
41 Land Rover 531 0.2%
42 Brilliance 409 0.1%
43 Mini 402 0.1%
44 Lexus 360 0.1%
45 Foton 360 0.1%
46 Tata 351 0.1%
47 Opel 347 0.1%
48 Porsche 318 0.1%
49 Jinbei 255 0.1%
50 Alfa Romeo 236 0.1%
51 JMC 95 0.0%
52 Jaguar 72 0.0%
53 Infiniti 33 0.0%
54 Ferrari 17 0.0%
55 Maserati 15 0.0%
56 Aston Martin 15 0.0%
57 GMC 7 0.0%
58 Iveco 6 0.0%
59 Lotus 4 0.0%
60 FAW 4 0.0%
Last edited by: No FM2R on Tue 13 Aug 13 at 14:09
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I had no idea Samsung made cars.
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Now Renault owned I think.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Tue 13 Aug 13 at 14:16
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Every day's a school day.
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Going to sea with my dad as a child I remember him always buying British shoes and suits.
Makes you think what has happened to our industries.A shame that we have to rely on so many foreign goods.
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>>Makes you think what has happened to our industries
"Although the manufacturing sector's share of both employment and the UK's GDP has steadily fallen since the 1960s, data from the OECD shows that manufacturing output in terms of both production and value has steadily INCREASEDsince 1945. A 2009 report from PricewaterhouseCoopers, citing data from the UK Office for National Statistics, stated that manufacturing output (gross value added at 2007 prices) has increased in 35 of the 50 years between 1958 and 2007, and output in 2007 was at record levels, approximately double that in 1958"
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>> My experience of made in China is rubbish.
>>
My experience is just the opposite. One of my last jobs was to approve the manufacture under licence of one of my employer's product ranges by a Chinese company. The quality and durability of the samples they submitted was much better than those made in our UK factories.
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We bought electrical stuff toys clothes no where near the quality of European goods our experience.In the States everything you buy is made in China,no wonder Detroit is a ghost town..;)
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Interesting article about Chinese quality control here. Snipquote:
"They change product specifications without asking, and they believe that it is better to beg forgiveness than to ask permission."
www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/comment/6962703/Why-Made-in-China-is-a-mark-of-shame.html
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>> they believe that it is better to beg forgiveness than to ask permission
What that means in practice is that if they ask for permission to reduce quality they know that their customer will say no.
Whereas if they simply reduce the quality then firstly they may not get found out, secondly for all the time they're not found out they make more money, and in the end the worst that can happen is that they will have to increase the quality again without penalty and without any legislative impact.
And since Western businessmen do not share their knowledge about the manufacturers, they remain largely immune from business implications of bad delivery.
This is not a charming or harmless Chinese behaviour. It is cynical, financially driven and deliberate.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Tue 13 Aug 13 at 15:07
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>> The quality and durability of the samples they submitted was much better than those made in our UK factories.
I'm sure they were.
I do wonder how they compared to the production units though.
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>> >> The quality and durability of the samples they submitted was much better than those
>> made in our UK factories.
>>
>> I'm sure they were.
>>
>> I do wonder how they compared to the production units though.
>>
The company was required to make periodic submissions of production units. I retired shortly afterwards so I never saw production units.
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>> My experience of made in China is rubbish.
Quality control is often down to the parent company. This varies widely in China. Some are made with very good quality but others are indeed rubbish.
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Wonder how many of these they'll shift in the UK?
greatwallmotor.co.uk/vehicles/coming-soon/
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Its not rubbish, Alanović. Ok it might not be the highest of quality, but its not bad for the price.
And as far as I can tell any lack of quality seems to be in the assembly, rather than the components themselves.
Certainly there are lots of them here and one doesn't see them broken down all over the place.
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www.greatwallmotors.cl/
At the top of the screen, just below the words "Great Wall" in red you'll sen the word "Modelos" followed by their three main models.
It is the Wingle5 Bencina (petrol) which is seen so much here although there's quite a few Havals as well..
The Haval5 which looks reasonably like the one you linked to, is about £12,000 OTR.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Tue 13 Aug 13 at 15:45
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Voleex C30 - $5190? Is that US dollars? Sheesh.
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No, its $5,190,000 Chilean Pesos
About £6,500.
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For comparison a Toyota Corolla starts from $7,000,000 which is about £8,800
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Ah, like the way they leave off the last 000s!
Still fairly cheap for a decent looking saloon. Comparable to the Sandero I suppose, but given the choice I'd be going for the Dacia.
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I think the Duster is sold here as a Renault. Assuming so then the Duster DYNAMIQUE 4X4 MT is £12k.
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EU threat to 'Made In Britain' labels - movilogo
