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I'm surprised at the number of working Car4players that appear to post during working time. The IT department of my final employer used to monitor internet usage, and disciplinary action would be taken against any employee caught using the internet on a company computer for anything other than company business. Was my employer unusually harsh?
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Well as most of us work(ed) for IT companies promoting internet use, banning its use would be a bit hypocritical.
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I think many businesses monitor it, but in my experience, only the larger ones with an IT department will actively police it. Small companies tend to be run informally - I used to work for a small charity employing 10 people, and there was no time or inclination for me as the office manager/IT manager to get involved in checking who was accessing what (for a long time it wasn't easily possible anyway due to our very simple network). But I previously worked for a part of BT, and they certainly monitored, and in some cases blocked, non-business use of sites. My son works for a water company, and they send regular emails warning about the use of personal emails, and non-business use of websites, occasionally. Whether they do actually monitor it or not, I have no idea.
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Two of my colleagues were suspended for a week when they were caught.
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>> Two of my colleagues were suspended for a week when they were caught.
If the offence was serious then you'd be suspended here too. That would be on pay; purpose of suspension is to prevent interfrence with the investigation.
Is L'es saying they were punished by losing a weeks work/pay?
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>> >> Two of my colleagues were suspended for a week when they were caught.
>>
>> If the offence was serious then you'd be suspended here too. That would be on
>> pay; purpose of suspension is to prevent interfrence with the investigation.
>>
>> Is L'es saying they were punished by losing a weeks work/pay?
>>
Because it was their first such offence they were suspended on full pay. Suspension meant going home and not coming into work for a week. I've no doubt that a second offence would have been dealt with more harshly. Their suspension damaged their reputation within the company, and served as a warning to others.
Last edited by: L'escargot on Mon 22 Jul 13 at 13:14
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Not sure I ever got a communication saying it was outright banned but it was certainly understood. In my case, had they objected a log of times would have showed I usually spent longer than my contracted hours on company business, and at times, used my home PC for business purposes. Most of the office knew my home email address and many had used it for work related queries.
Never made any secret of it, indeed propounded the cup of coffee rule. That is to say, if I was drinking a cup of coffee at work, I might be doing other things than work, and if something needed attention at home, I'd not mind as long as it took no longer than the time to drink a cup of coffee.
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Our policy allows reasonable use provided work is not interfered with. Managers monitor exceeds in same way as other timewasting. Either it's affecting your output ot they're seeing the same screen over your shoulder too often.
If they need to check up, or an unsuitable image is reported, then managers can call for reports of sites accessed. Blocking software cuts access to stuff deemed unsuitable. No doubt that includes porn and until recently facebook and twitter but those, particularly the latter now have a recognised business function.
In a organisation with a huge range of roles and functions that trying to 'catch' individuals, other than for example egregious ebay traders, is not an economic prospect. There are just too many sites accessed either for work or under permitted personal use for the sort of checking l'es reports to be viable.
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>> Our policy allows reasonable use provided work is not interfered with.
Same here.
And any websites deemed unsuitable (eg, porn, social networking, torrent sites) are auotmatically banned by the net nanny filter. Occasionally it throws a wobbly (just like the swear filter here), but a quick email to IT requesting access be given resolves it.
Last edited by: VxFan on Mon 22 Jul 13 at 10:18
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Our rules have stuff about not doing anything naughty, but really they're most interested in whether you do the work or not. Hence no fixed working hours or timesheets etc., and freedom to post to C4P.
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Personal use is encouraged provided it doesn't interfere with work. Unlimited 3G in the UK, "within reason" abroad.
Last edited by: Fursty Ferret on Mon 22 Jul 13 at 10:11
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They sound a bit harsh to me yes. I don't bother with the internet at work but plenty do. Certain sites or blocked automatically, but I've never known anyone even been spoken to about their internet useage at work. Everyone has a log in but never known it be monitered.
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Use monitored in my daughter's local authority office but private use allowed in the official lunch hour.
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I'm glad I'm not running an office any more - people not working when they are being paid to would be a nightmare for me.
I once walked through a newsroom of an evening paper I worked for - not in that office - and virtually every screen was displaying that Solitaire game that came with Windows. Lazy sods.
When I ran the show it was well known that when you worked you worked and when work was over we pushed the boat out.
Simpler times - and people still say they wish they could work for me again...
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My site is blocked by a NHS Trust...
Not a rude word nor a naughty image on it. Just the story of a car rebuild and a few engineering resources. Was going to demonstrate it to a doctor but had to give that idea up.
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If you're employing people who work only their contracted hours and have to be monitored down to the level of toilet and smoking breaks, you may also need to be prescriptive about Internet use. But for workers who can be managed by their outputs rather than their inputs, the kind of 'acceptable use' policy of this and all my previous employers - backed with content blockers as VF describes - is generally enough.
I'm at work now, digesting my lunch and using my smartphone because I have my own read-only policy for personal stuff on the corporate network. I wouldn't want to risk embarrassing myself or my employer online. I don't Twitter or Facebook but would use the phone if I did. And I don't worry about the time because, like SP, I spend far more time doing work in personal time than I spend on personal business in work time.
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We have had a succession of temps to help out with a big project over the past 3 months or so. One lad of about 18 didn't last very long, after I had to remind him that we were paying him to process a pile of forms, and not to look at Facebook and WhatsApp on his phone. He got very humpy about being thus corrected.
Office had to tighten its internet policy for practical reasons - people were using iPlayer and the like to catch up on TV during lunch breaks and it was devouring bandwidth like nobody's business.
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Don't forget some of us in manual jobs without company computer access work odd shift patterns, thats why my posts can appear during normal working hours.
Similarly i can complete my shift and be home again before playboys Lud and Dog have surfaced and eaten their tofu ..:-)
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When I was at work, there'd be plenty of times I was so damned busy I had a burning pain in my groin, because I'd not had chance for a 'p' for a number of hours.
So if eventually I got 15 minutes to myself for a rosy lea and a sandwich..i'd have been willing to argue with anyone that I had a right to some time to myself..and if that meant looking at the internet or similar at the same time, then so be it.
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SWM had words with me ole mate Ali at the post office/convenience shop. His new shop assistant, Wakas, was surfing or something on his phone and serving customers at the same time.
That soon stopped but I've noticed on my tea scrounging missions that he seems to have started up again. Very rude.........I bet he puts the damn thing away when he sees wifey coming up the road !
Ted
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>> I had a burning pain in my groin, .............
When I had that it turned out to be an inguinal hernia.
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I work online which is very fortunate ;)
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Everyone who reports to me is measured on performance. If they achieve their sales targets they earn a reasonable living, if they exceed them they earn a very decent living, if they fail to reach them too often they have to go.
What time they start work and what time they finish or whatever else they do while at work is of little concern to me provided they meet the objectives set them or indeed exceed them.
I've never had a job with set hours or set pay or whatever. Wouldn't want one now either.
This always amuses me... Not a million miles from reality sadly !
( bit rude here and there so don't click if you're easily offended )
www.youtube.com/watch?v=y-AXTx4PcKI
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>> This always amuses me... Not a million miles from reality sadly !
Real good mate of mine was a double glazing salesman with a big outfit...some of his yarns were an eye opener and tend to confirm what you've said.
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Humph - as we both know people manage the most complex thing they understand.
If someone looks at their role and decides that the most complex thing they understand is time keeping, then that's what gets managed.
Managing performance, whilst undoubtedly the correct approach, is one for the competent and that doesn't include all [many?] managers.
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I post on-line during work time. There's no policy, I also work quite hard when required, they get their money's worth - end of.
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The nature of our business is such that people have to work unsupervised much of the time and make their own luck due to the way they are paid which is highly geared to commission rather than salary.
When recruiting, I find that it's not the ones who claim to be a "team player" or "good timekeeper" or some such guff who make it but the driven ones. I look for people who strive for individual success. Marathon runners, distance cyclists, people well qualified in martial arts, triathletes and the like usually turn out to be reliable self-starters who will see things through and make things happen. By their very nature though, they tend also to be self-regulating loners and need to be given space to be individuals and if that means they work in unconventional ways, provided they achieve results it's of no consequence.
One of my best guys generally only works 3 days a week on average. He's a single parent and wants a work/life balance but also wants the best income he can provide for his kids. He works hard but more importantly he works smart and usually achieves more in his short week than most do working full time or more so of course everyone is happy.
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I used to be very, very driven in my old line of work - my life changed as did my attitude to a lot of things including work. I like my work, the nature of my role, fits my free-spritness, CAB workers are not paid a fortune and one would never get rich on it. There's a quid pro quo - I didn't get any breaks today - so I lingered over a pre-going home brew.
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>> Humph - as we both know people manage the most complex thing they understand.
>>
>> If someone looks at their role and decides that the most complex thing they understand
>> is time keeping, then that's what gets managed.
>>
>> Managing performance, whilst undoubtedly the correct approach, is one for the competent and that doesn't
>> include all [many?] managers.
>>
It isn't as simple as that though, is it?
If you are sales, then yes, it can be that simple, because it's sink or swim.
If you are admin for example, that might work, but there again it might not..because it takes all sorts to make a world...and you might have someone in admin who is distinctly average or even slightly below average, but not poor enough to get rid of and they only ever will be, so the concept of performance and trust to do the job in your own time etc is not something you want to leave to them...so you make sure they're there for as long as possible to at least achieve something.
Private versus public is another one, harder to get rid etc.
When you are in the above zone, try telling one of the hard workers who does keep time that it doesn't matter when the lazy git is tardy or fiddles their time keeping.
Motivated, supported staff, not if someone else is taking the 'p'.
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Hmmm, well I'd maybe be finding other ways of measuring productivity/efficiency than just the amount of time spent doing it.
If the objective is to manufacture a thousand flingelwidgets on a shift then provided a thousand get manufactured then why worry if the person doing it knocks off early or comes in late? If his/her colleaugue takes all day to do their thousand then they maybe need to be there for the full shift. Or if the objective is to process lets say, mundungus forms and the target is to process a hundred of those then the same applies. The real trick, in my view, is to incentivise over-performance with reward and praise rather than fear. If someone wants to take that reward in the form of shorter hours then fine.
Under-performance combined with lead-swinging is of course a different matter. Those individuals tend to be found out and shipped out fairly quickly. In the real world anyway.
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>> Under-performance combined with lead-swinging is of course a different matter. Those individuals tend to be
>> found out and shipped out fairly quickly. In the real world anyway.
>>
I don't think you can begin to understand public service mediocrity..and the utter frustrations at having to put up with it..and the running in quicksand feeling about trying to address it.
Then you get a taste of the local authority...and realise your lot isn't half as bad.
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>>don't think you can begin to understand public service mediocrity...
You're probably right. For example, I couldn't imagine having to pre-arrange a time or ask permission to take a lunch break. Equally though, if pressure of schedules means I occasionally have work silly hours then I just do it.
I'm posting on here now but I'm also concurrently in a work related email conversation with a colleague on the west coast of America right now having started work this morning at 05.00 doing the same with a supplier in China.
Sat in the sun for an hour mid afternoon though.
Just the way it is. Got a lot done too.
Different way of life.
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Are you a Jekyll and Hyde character Humph? Do you really come on like the appalling fellow in the bit of film you linked? Suddenly stop being a virtual Buddhist by our standards and turn into a snarling prat like that? I must say I doubt it. I imagine you agonise a bit about firing people ad let them go as gently as possible.
Funny stuff, selling. I am spectacularly bad at it myself. I tried it when young, stupid and desperate, couldn't sell anything at all although our leader said I had a 'classy dem'. Fat lot of good that did me...
One of my intake colleagues was a South London yobbo who said gleefully that he and his mates were coming up to Notting Hill to beat up some blacks. This was in the summer of 58. Some black guys I had fleeting retail business with were making paranoid noises about the same time, apparently for good reason. I went to Bath to see my parents, get something to eat and borrow a few quid, and when I came back the famous 'race riots' were all over. Certain number of broken windows and so on.
The egregious Oswald Mosley was campaigning in the manor. I went to one of his meetings. Even at that age I could see he hadn't a chance, hopelessly stiff and out of date.
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>>Are you a Jekyll and Hyde character...
No of course not. The film clip serves only to present an extreme to illustrate a point. The real message is that selling takes effort. Just sitting waiting for the customer to come to you isn't effective. You have to find a way, whatever that is, of convincing them that it's the best idea they've had today to decide to buy your products or services and that, in it's simplest form, is at the very least, asking them to decide.
A little test. A subject we on here find at least interesting. The car market. Some here are experts on that and I wouldn't presume to be one of them but let's take a simple example.
Let's suppose you are a salesman at one of the following dealerships ( VW, Ford, Vauxhall ) Let's also suppose you've got into conversation with a potential customer on your forecourt who has revealed that he/she is in the market for a Polo or a Fiesta or a Corsa. Have a think about what you might say to them to ensure that the business came your way.
I'll give you a clue as to what I'd be doing before I went down the price negotiation route. I'd be trying to find out why they'd shortlisted those three. Is it "my mate has one and he loves it" Is it "I learned to drive on one and I feel really comfortable driving them" Is it "My dad says these are good" or what is it. Whatever it is, that's your hook and and that's the thing you emphasise the positive aspects of. It's rarely useful to denigrate the competition, that just makes you sound smarmy. Stick to gentle reminders of the positive benefits of your product and try where possible, not to discuss the possibility of them buying the competitors product at all.
It sounds simple but it's surprising how many people new to the work don't even begin to employ even those most basic principles. A good deal, in any business, is done when both the seller and the buyer conclude the transaction with both parties happy with the outcome. It's never useful when one tries or even succeeds in shafting the other. Lead people to a sensible outcome which meets their needs and desires while keeping a profit for yourself and you've ticked all the boxes.
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>>> It's never useful when one tries or even succeeds in shafting the other. Lead people to a sensible outcome which meets their needs and desires while keeping a profit for yourself and you've ticked all the boxes.
Perhaps I'm doing it right after all.
The Carphone warehouse guy that lost any chance they'd get our business for daughter's birthday IPhone failed in these respects. We listened to the last few minutes of his patter with the previous customers and it didn't take long for him to alienate us. Confrontational making us feel we were on opp sides of a very tall fence, attempting to score points and belittle our understanding with every angle as he worked towards a sale + extras.
The people before us did buy but you could see even as they were offering the credit card it was a negative experience for them, the end of their deal was concluded more like an argument. He may have got that one sale but I bet they won't rush back there.
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>> The real message is that selling takes effort. Just sitting waiting for the
>> customer to come to you isn't effective.
It's effective when I buy a car. I do my research and I've decided exactly what I want even before I walk into the showroom. All the salesman has to do is to agree to an acceptable price.
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>> It's effective when I buy a car. I do my research and I've decided exactly
>> what I want even before I walk into the showroom. All the salesman has to
>> do is to agree to an acceptable price.
>>
The salesman has to talk you into paying the most he can get out of you. Any fool can sell something for peanuts.
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"The salesman has to talk you into paying the most he can get out of you. Any fool can sell something for peanuts."
So they are not selling, they are robbing you. Hence treat with so much suspicion.
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>>>in a work related email conversation with a colleague on the west coast of America right now having started work this morning at 05.00 doing the same with a supplier in China.
Getting your west coast cousin to offer some style tips for the Alibaba boys to run up for the spring 2014 collection then Humph?
Have to admit I had similar thoughts to AC. As far as I remember back your life attitude in so many areas has seemed at odds with a high pressure sales guy.
Like AC too in my career life anything sales related for me seemed so alien. Odd that now the small business I run only earns when I sell stuff and I need to make folks want my thing not the other 20 they could choose at that time. The fact that it's working perhaps says a relaxed, honest, non pushy guy can sell... but not enough to keep your shareholders happy though.
Last edited by: Fenlander on Thu 25 Jul 13 at 00:15
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>> Odd that now the small business I run only earns when I sell stuff and
>> I need to make folks want my thing not the other 20 they could choose
>> at that time. The fact that it's working perhaps says a relaxed, honest, non pushy
>> guy can sell... but not enough to keep your shareholders happy though.
>>
>>
I disagree.
Pushy salesman sell once.
A relaxed non pushy salesman can build trust, and with that, repeat business.
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>>
>> I'm posting on here now but I'm also concurrently in a work related email conversation
>> with a colleague on the west coast of America right now having started work this
>> morning at 05.00 doing the same with a supplier in China.
>>
>
Similar situation here. I'm the boss, I can do what I like. I'm on the computer most of the day with work-related things, and at the same time flick between various forums reflecting my interests, do personal stuff, use the phone.
There's no particular rule for staff, but as most are customer-facing or on the move there's not much opportunity. I only stamp on things if it affects business, otherwise a blind eye is often the best policy.
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Reasonable personal use in working hours is fine here, as long as it doesn't adversely impact business.
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I am the boss and can do as I want and it is not unknown for me to be sending work emails out in the transit lounge in Dubai at midnight whilst waiting for a connecting flight.....but if I want to take a day off I do not have to ask anyone.....
I treat my staff in a similar fashion and if the work gets done then I do not mind if someone wants to slip off early or come in late.....
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Posting during working time - Zero
