| Non-motoring > Racism | Miscellaneous |
| Thread Author: L'escargot | Replies: 45 |
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New Wed 17 Jul 13 06:51
Racism - L'escargot
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| In a recent edition of one of the TV "soap" programmes, one of the mixed-race characters was offended because a Caucasian character (using a figure of speech he had been brought up with) said "Play the white man". The offended character said that the remark was racist, and demanded an apology. If someone called me a white honky I would just laugh. Incidentally, when I was young I had a golliwog. Ageism, sexism, racism ~ I think there are far more important problems in the world to worry about. What do you think? |
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New Wed 17 Jul 13 07:00
Racism - Meldrew
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| It is only a soap but I suppose the plot lines have to reflect contemporary attitudes, up to a point. Don't thye already cover lesbian relationships, surrogate parenting etc? stand--by for a same sex marriage or a bit of paedophilia |
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New Wed 17 Jul 13 07:26
Racism - MD
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| As a lad when I was not playing the game so to speak my Father would say, "Play the White Man, Darkie". Never though much about it. I knew black folk and we just got on with life. |
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New Wed 17 Jul 13 07:37
Racism - WillDeBeest
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Ageism, sexism, racism ~ I think there are far more important problems in the world to worry about. What do you think? I think you've never been disadvantaged because you belong to a group you didn't choose to join. Come back and tell us what you think when you've been refused beneficial but expensive medical treatment because you're considered too old. Even so, it shows a remarkably poor imagination not to see the damage a discriminatory attitude can do. You might argue 'play the white man' is just a harmless stock phrase, but is it, when it carries the implication that one ethnic group is morally superior to another? |
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New Wed 17 Jul 13 07:42
Racism - Dog
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I used to visit a garage down the ole kent road in my mobile car tuning days, a coloured gentleman working there used to be called spade. I found it hilarious tbh, but he didn't seem to mind one iota, he was quite an okay geezer istr, I tuned his car at one time, but I don't think I had the audacity to call him that! www.youtube.com/watch?v=c_gN7zlpnz8 |
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New Wed 17 Jul 13 08:22
Racism - Cliff Pope
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I think use of old traditional stock phrases by real people in real life is understandable, and has to be seen in context. Very often it has no intentional racism at all, although of course sensitive people may still see it as such. But in a soap opera every single word and phrase has been carefully thought about and deliberately written. The writers one would assume are therefore carefully making a particular point by giving a character such a line. They are deliberately raising the possibility of a mixed response, presumably have done so with an intention. Obviously if a soap or play or book portrays a racist character it would be ridiculous for the author to then apologise for the character's views, or indeed for anyone to be offended by it. Taking an extreme case, if an author wrote a play about Hitler, it would be silly and pointless to airbrush out his anti-semitism and portray him as a PC person living in 2013. |
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New Wed 17 Jul 13 10:23
Racism - Cliff Pope
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I was working in an office in 1975 with about six people, one of them black. Someone making the coffee asking who wanted milk or sugar shouted across the room, "Hey, Winston, are you white?" As one innocently does, offering someone milk or not. Winston replied in his best put-on West-Indian voice "No, man, ah's black". Laughter all round. He normally spoke cockney. |
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New Wed 17 Jul 13 10:20
Racism - Zero
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>> In a recent edition of one of the TV "soap" programmes, one of the mixed-race >> characters was offended because a Caucasian character (using a figure of speech he had been >> brought up with) said "Play the white man". The offended character said that the remark >> was racist, and demanded an apology. If someone called me a white honky I would >> just laugh. Incidentally, when I was young I had a golliwog. Ageism, sexism, racism ~ >> I think there are far more important problems in the world to worry about. What >> do you think? the basis of the phrase "play the white man" was to suggest that anyone who was not white was not trustworthy. Although the phrase may have passed into common vernacular, its so specific in the words used, its almost guaranteed to inflame any non white person. It will eventually disappear as a phrase. |
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New Wed 17 Jul 13 10:26
Racism - Westpig
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>> the basis of the phrase "play the white man" was to suggest that anyone who >> was not white was not trustworthy. Although the phrase may have passed into common vernacular, >> its so specific in the words used, its almost guaranteed to inflame any non white >> person. It will eventually disappear as a phrase. >> I can remember my gran calling me a 'dirty arab', which isn't overly PC nowadays. Didn't mean the user was trying to be or even had any knowledge that it was offensive though...and you are right, it has died out (I think). |
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New Wed 17 Jul 13 10:32
Racism - Zero
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| Yeah, stuff like that will change or disappear, but it takes time. To use a point from the OP, does anyone really miss gollywogs? Kids don't for sure, the only people that do are those that try to venerate it as an example of PC gone to far. When they die out so will any thoughts of gollywogs. |
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New Wed 17 Jul 13 15:43
Racism - Bromptonaut
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>> I can remember my gran calling me a 'dirty arab', which isn't overly PC nowadays. >> Didn't mean the user was trying to be or even had any knowledge that it >> was offensive though...and you are right, it has died out (I think). My Gran, who given that you and I are proximate in age, was of the same generation was given to warn of the danger of being 'Jewed' by shopkeepers who drove a hard bargain. |
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New Wed 17 Jul 13 11:21
Racism - TeeCee
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>> What do you think? >> Witch! Witch! Burn the witch! or Heresy! Burn the heretic! I suppose we should be glad that burning at the stake for failing to be au fait with this week's newthink has gone out of fashion. |
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New Wed 17 Jul 13 11:36
Racism - WillDeBeest
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| Eh? |
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New Wed 17 Jul 13 12:47
Racism - Westpig
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One thing that used to really get me going, was the thoughtless tits that used to ban a word/saying for no real reason and had got the wrong end of the stick. I can remember going to a seminar or something many moons ago and being proudly told by the facilitator that it wasn't a blackboard anymore, but a chalk board. What the hell was wrong with blackboard? |
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New Wed 17 Jul 13 13:26
Racism - R.P.
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I don't watch the Street anymore, but was vaguely aware of the storyline - in fact I quizzed Mrs RP about it as I had a professional interest in race issues for a while. On reflection and reading this thread it does seem that this seems to have been handled very well. It was a phrase in relatively common usage for many years in my little world. I can see how this could be quite an insult to anyone who doesn't happen to be white. Remember that the perception of a "victim" of any use of words or phrases is what's important. I think it was quite a clever way the script-writers wove it in - creating debate about this sort of stuff is important. |
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New Wed 17 Jul 13 14:53
Racism - Haywain
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"I can remember going to a seminar or something many moons ago and being proudly told by the facilitator that it wasn't a blackboard anymore, but a chalk board." My wife is a teacher and uses a white board (with non-permanent pens) and everyone refers to it as a .................... (drumroll) ............. "whiteboard". So, why is there an objection to 'blackboard' - but not 'whiteboard'? Next, I'll be told that I can't call a spade, a 'spade'! |
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New Wed 17 Jul 13 15:54
Racism - Zero
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>> "I can remember going to a seminar or something many moons ago and being proudly >> told by the facilitator that it wasn't a blackboard anymore, but a chalk board." >> >> My wife is a teacher and uses a white board (with non-permanent pens) and everyone >> refers to it as a .................... (drumroll) ............. "whiteboard". >> >> So, why is there an objection to 'blackboard' - but not 'whiteboard'? >> >> Next, I'll be told that I can't call a spade, a 'spade'! > No-one has ever suggested that a spade can not be called a spade, its talk like that that gives real racists their ammunition and oxygen. |
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New Wed 17 Jul 13 14:23
Racism - L'escargot
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Sticks and stones may break my bones, but names will never hurt me. I'm not too keen on being sprinkled with salt though! |
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New Wed 17 Jul 13 14:27
Racism - helicopter
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I'm not too keen on being sprinkled with salt though! Yep , much better in the shell with herb butter ..........Yum...... |
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New Wed 17 Jul 13 14:32
Racism - Crankcase
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| I'd never heard that phrase before, and until this thread explained it I would have had no idea what it meant. |
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New Wed 17 Jul 13 14:57
Racism - L'escargot
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>> I'd never heard that phrase before, and until this thread explained it I would have >> had no idea what it meant. >> I've known it (and used it) for as long as I can remember. I've never had any racist thoughts when I've said it. Nor have I ever thought of a golliwog as being anything other than a colourful toy. And I certainly never thought of the "Black and White Minstrels" show as being racist ~ it was just a variety show which had performers who had lots of colourful makeup. You'd have to be incredibly over-sensitive to let anything like that get under your skin. |
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New Wed 17 Jul 13 15:07
Racism - Armel Coussine
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I know a certain amount about this subject having had privileged access to the unsanitised views of black people, including a few who were right villains, for 55 years. By and large the British are not virulently racist although our formerly imperialist and colonialist nation is inevitably and pervasively racist. However racism including anti-semitism is to be found in virulent and poisonous form in some people on all levels of society (not, as is widely assumed, disproportionately in the white working class). Ill-educated, prosperous upper-middle and upper class people are among the most disgusting offenders. These also include surprising numbers of what are called the 'chattering classes'. Nor can it be said (although some say it) that black and brown people can't be racist. They can be and often are. However such people aren't much of a threat to us, are they? Whereas we pose a constant potential threat to their dignity, self-respect and career prospects. It's hardly surprising that unscrupulous individuals sometimes resort to false accusations of racism for one reason or another. Black people in our society are sensitive to nuances. They are very good, pretty well 100%, at distinguishing between sly bullying malice and simple uncultured choice of language. Names can hurt just as much as sticks and stones, more so even. Sometimes the only dignified response is a bunch of fives, verbal or physical. |
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New Wed 17 Jul 13 15:53
Racism - Westpig
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>> I know a certain amount about this subject having had privileged access to the unsanitised >> views of black people, including a few who were right villains, for 55 years. Can't argue with any of that AC. |
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New Wed 17 Jul 13 19:54
Racism - Westpig
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>> Nor can it be said (although some say it) that black and brown people can't >> be racist. They can be and often are. I did notice there can often be a high degree of animosity between indian and black people, more so than usually between whites and others. It certainly isn't a white problem only. |
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New Wed 17 Jul 13 20:02
Racism - RattleandSmoke
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I get it sometimes, one of my Indian customers has told me a few times how he really doesn't like the Pakistanis. Of course coming from a white person that would be racist, but coming from an Indian it some how doesn't seem as bad. |
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New Wed 17 Jul 13 20:37
Racism - Lygonos
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Amusing inadvertent racist outburst from a schoolmate in the 80s: Modern Studies teacher (female of Asian descent) was asking the class a question, ending with the query "How now?" My friend unconciously blurted out "Brown cow" and within a nanosecond realised what he has said and was mortally embarrassed. The whole class peed themselves needless to say. |
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New Wed 17 Jul 13 21:00
Racism - MD
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| Oh! Hell. I just felt like I was there. That must have been so funny............ |
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New Wed 17 Jul 13 21:14
Racism - Robin O'Reliant
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Racism by school teachers was the norm back in the sixties. I got slapped round the face by a female teacher and called "An Irish cur", another woman teacher lined everyone up in the playground to tell us that whenever there was trouble it was always the little black boys causing it. Today episode 1 would have resulted in a jail sentence and 2 would at the very least have been end of career. We thought nothing of it. |
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New Thu 18 Jul 13 00:22
Racism - Armel Coussine
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>> The whole class peed themselves needless to say. Can you remember how the teacher took it Lygonos? Perhaps not, but it would be interesting to know. There's a line in Romeo and Juliet: "Quick! Draw thy tool! Here comes two of the house of Montagu!" When we got to that line in the sixth form we all giggled helplessly. Lord Montagu of Beaulieu, a car man actually, and some of his gay friends had just been exposed in the tabloids for jumping on boy scouts camping on the Beaulieu estate. I think one of the gay friends did time for it. Our teacher, a very uptight and puritanical Jesuit (they aren't all like that), foamed at the mouth almost and said we had filthy minds. That added to the general mirth. Goodness it was funny. |
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New Wed 17 Jul 13 23:53
Racism - Bromptonaut
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>> I did notice there can often be a high degree of animosity between indian and >> black people, more so than usually between whites and others. It certainly isn't a white >> problem only. The one occasion recently I've had to pull somebody up over racism was a West Indian lady who had issues with west Africans. Indigenous Windward Isles rather than Afro-Caribbean FWIW. |
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New Wed 17 Jul 13 23:54
Racism - Roger.
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| We are all tribal - discuss !! |
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New Thu 18 Jul 13 02:25
Racism - zippy
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>>We are all tribal - discuss !! Yes we are, it is human nature but it does not mean that it is an excuse to be spiteful or just plain evil to someone in a different tribe. Proof of tribalism? When filming Planet of the Apes it was noted that the actors dressed as gorillas lunched together, apart from other groups as did the actors dressed as chimps etc. |
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New Wed 17 Jul 13 23:56
Racism - Bromptonaut
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>> In a recent edition of one of the TV "soap" programmes, one of the mixed-race >> characters was offended because a Caucasian character (using a figure of speech he had been >> brought up with) said "Play the white man". The offended character said that the remark >> was racist, and demanded an apology. If someone called me a white honky I would >> just laugh. Incidentally, when I was young I had a golliwog. Ageism, sexism, racism ~ >> I think there are far more important problems in the world to worry about. What >> do you think? We've done this before. Insulting messages directed at the racial majority are wrong but not in same league as t'other way round. |
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New Thu 18 Jul 13 12:38
Racism - Westpig
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>> Insulting messages directed at the racial majority are wrong but >> not in same league as t'other way round. >> If something is insulting..it is insulting, so it matters not which way the insult goes. I'd agree that if a non white person called me a honky, the actual phraseology would be water off a ducks back...however...if I were to be chastised/disciplined/prosecuted for saying the equivalent back then I'd think that one sided and expect an equivalence of action(s)...after all what's good for the goose is good for the gander. Too many people feign hurt feelings as a means of some form of control/power over everyone else (or feigning on behalf of others who often couldn't care less)...which irritates and more importantly takes away from the real cases of unpleasantness that blights people's lives. |
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New Thu 18 Jul 13 13:10
Racism - Bromptonaut
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>> If something is insulting..it is insulting, so it matters not which way the insult goes. >> >> I'd agree that if a non white person called me a honky, the actual phraseology >> would be water off a ducks back...however...if I were to be chastised/disciplined/prosecuted for saying the >> equivalent back then I'd think that one sided and expect an equivalence of action(s)...after all >> what's good for the goose is good for the gander. >> >> Too many people feign hurt feelings as a means of some form of control/power over >> everyone else (or feigning on behalf of others who often couldn't care less)...which irritates and >> more importantly takes away from the real cases of unpleasantness that blights people's lives. I could have phrased myself better last night. Racist views and insults, directed by a minority against a the majority can be laughed off. As you say, water offf a ducks back. I've related before the experience with a woman passenger on a Watford train years ago, who accused the white passengers of being 'honkies' and smelling. She had I suspect Mental Health issues. OTOH when such views/language are used against a minority they acquire a more threateniig dimension. I know black/Asian people who won't go outdoors during an EDL demo. Worse still is when such language or behaviour is exhibited by those with power (politicans, public servants) or other 'authority' roles. According to this morning's Guardian six of your former colleagues are on disciplinaries for exchanging racist jokes by text. The content of the jokes was deemed not publishasble. No doubt the lads will enter a defence of banter and deny that even for a minute the attitudes displayed in the jokes might leach out inot their professional attitude. Even post McPherson it seems some lessons are unlearned - don't even go near such stuff. One person feigning racial offence to 'get one over' in work or whatever situation is one too many. But it's not really typical behaviour is it? If you're persistently treated with no respect whatsoever (see the other thread) on what look and feel like racial grounds then you've every right to try and assert some 'equality of arms'. Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Thu 18 Jul 13 at 13:12
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New Thu 18 Jul 13 13:32
Racism - Westpig
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>> Even post McPherson it seems some lessons are unlearned - don't even go near such >> stuff. Hmm. Would I/do I find some jokes funny that someone else would say is 'ist' or even are glaringly obviously 'ist' in the first place?....Yes, I do. Would I ever state anything to anyone that would seriously offend them?...No Would I ever treat someone poorly/unprofessionally/in a second class manner because of personal feelings of apathy towards their background etc?...No Is it wrong of me to find the dodgy joke funny?...Not in my book, no. If I sent one on my private mobile phone to another recipient's private mobile phone, whose business is that? >> One person feigning racial offence to 'get one over' in work or whatever situation is >> one too many. But it's not really typical behaviour is it? It isn't greatly typical, i'd agree...but it is out there, it's human nature. Trouble is some feel untouchable because of it, especially the poor performers who hide behind it. That rankles everyone else. |
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New Thu 18 Jul 13 13:50
Racism - Bromptonaut
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>> Would I/do I find some jokes funny that someone else would say is 'ist' or >> even are glaringly obviously 'ist' in the first place?....Yes, I do. Like the 'boyfriend' thing we don't know the full facts. Seems one of the recipients did not apprecaite sentiments. If they were just juvenile jokes about 'little black sambo' or play on accents I'd agree with WP. Even stuff about wars the Jew, the Christian and the Imam can be funny. Words of advice perhaps. OTOH if it was about current cell inmates, colleagues or the Lawrence case then feet should not touch. |
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New Thu 18 Jul 13 14:01
Racism - Cliff Pope
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>> >> If something is insulting..it is insulting, so it matters not which way the insult goes. >> >> Doesn't it depend on someone actually being insulted? If you swore, violently, in a defunct language that no one now understood, would it still be insulting? |
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New Thu 18 Jul 13 14:05
Racism - Dog
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| G string. |
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New Thu 18 Jul 13 14:12
Racism - Armel Coussine
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>> G string. Why do you keep saying that Perro? Is your mind fixed on guitar repairs or intimate female apparel? Just curious you understand... |
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New Thu 18 Jul 13 14:22
Racism - WillDeBeest
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...or is he just muttering to himself as he wanders through the house looking for his pants? Tip: now he's over sixty he can wear those enormous Old Man Y-fronts. No danger of losing those. };---) |
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New Thu 18 Jul 13 14:46
Racism - Dog
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>>now he's over sixty he can wear those enormous Old Man Y-fronts. No danger of losing those. I actually andar a lo gringo and have done for decades :o} |
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New Thu 18 Jul 13 15:00
Racism - Ted
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Me too ,Bonzo....See, I knew we were related ! Ted |
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New Thu 18 Jul 13 14:42
Racism - Dog
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>>Why do you keep saying that Perro? I do it to remind myself I need to buy a set of Ernie Ball Super Slinkies for my Strat :) |
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New Thu 18 Jul 13 14:58
Racism - No FM2R
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Racism is difficult to understand unless you've suffered from it. And by "suffered" I don't just mean heard it, I mean been affected by it. And unfortunately those who pretend to be offended by it damage the cause of those that are. I get called Gringo all the time. Mostly in much the same way as I might be called Taffy, Jock or similar, but sometimes in the an insulting way which is intended to be denigrating. But I come from a country that has spent chunks of its history lording it over other countries, rather than the other way around. A relatively successful country which is perceived to be full of successful people, which others aspire to be part of, who have historically lorded it over others rather than the other way around. So however nastily someone might mean "Gringo", I tend to hear jealousy or resentment, which actually isn't that annoying, so water off a ducks back and all that. Even when in Argentina, it just doesn't cut that deep. Its kind of difficult to take it seriously given the source. For others in other situations with different histories I can see how it might. |
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New Thu 18 Jul 13 16:08
Racism - Armel Coussine
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>> For others in other situations with different histories I can see how it might. That's about the size of it FMR. I've been called a racist, an imperialist, a capitalist (jolly unfair that), an exploiter, a spy, a hack employed to distort the truth, etc. etc. in various places. There's a sort of combination of racism and envy that makes people sound particularly venomous. On the whole these misconceptions are quite easy to understand and don't hurt. And when the insulter is being a damn humbug, which can happen, you can just let them have it in, er, spades. Unfortunately though one's po-faced British indifference can seem smug and supercilious to the dumber or nastier sort of person, enraging them still further. Give them a proper American capitalist or Franco-Belgian racist any day, they seem to be thinking. Heigh-ho... |
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