To be serious for a moment, has anyone but me noticed the mischievous role being played by all the international media including Al Jazeera in the ghastly clamour coming out of Egypt?
The media, and actually the White House and Downing Street among others, have been encouraging the Muslim Brothers and their supporters by being creatively vague about the meaning of democracy.
The fact is that the appalling Morsi, elected by 51% of voters at the time against one other candidate held to represent the former army regime, immediately went back on his pledges and started to change the constitution to restore the usual dictatorship, this time inspired by God. The army is doing the right thing and trying to be gentle. It is quite right to shoot rioting nutters. The more the better.
It's perfectly clear that a large majority of Egyptians don't want religious crap or a dictatorship by bearded idiots but a serious government for a very important, vulnerable, not-very-Arab country of 90 million people. A country with an ancient civilization vastly predating the simple desert religion Islam. But only Egyptian secularists have said so in so many words. Everyone else, BBC, Al Jazeera, White House and Downing Street, has wittered about a coup.
One could almost believe in a conspiracy. Tchah!
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I understand that 22 journalists employed by Al Jazeera have resigned from the Arab funded broadcaster, citing bias and pressure always to portray the Muslim Brotherhood as "good" and all its opponents as "bad".
They have some bottle to bring into the open such bias in an Arab owned and widely watched broadcaster, not only in the Arab world, but also in the West.
It never ceases to amaze me how "soft" on Islam are the BBC - and I guess ,quite a few other Western broadcasters are.
Islam is almost given protected status, certainly in this country, compared, for example, with Christianity.
I hold no brief for any organised religion, but it seems that any criticism of Islam and actions by its adherents is met by the cry of "racism", "hate crime" etc. whereas similar criticism of other religions is dismissed as well, just criticism.
Last edited by: Roger on Wed 10 Jul 13 at 09:56
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Most Islamic countries will be better off under a dictator. History proved this over & over again.
>> it seems that any criticism of Islam and actions by its adherents is met by the cry of "racism", "hate crime" etc. whereas similar criticism of other religions is dismissed as well, just criticism.
When it is a question of Islam vs other religions, muslims are all united and fight together. In all other religions, there are people who hate their own religions. Such behavior is extremely rare for muslims.
Once muslims manage to get rid of other non-muslims, then they start fighting among themselves.
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istianity.
>>
>> I hold no brief for any organised religion, but it seems that any criticism of
>> Islam and actions by its adherents is met by the cry of "racism", "hate crime"
>> etc. whereas similar criticism of other religions is dismissed as well, just criticism.
Another biased view not borne out by the facts. How conveniently we bend the perception to suit our aims, and how conveniently we forget things like the Jewish lobby who even managed to get questioning the holocaust banned by legislation.
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I agree with the comment that they're not ready for democracy. I wonder if they ever will be.
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That applies in many parts of the world, a fact the west seems to unappreciate, constantly trying to force the square peg of western style democracy into the round hole of local custom and affairs with the subsequent chaos that brings.
Last edited by: Zero on Wed 10 Jul 13 at 10:27
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I have visited and done business with Al Jazeera in Qatar although not for some time .
Based in Doha it is the fastest growing news channel in the world and of course they are going to reflect the news from the Arab Muslim viewpoint , just as the BBC would reflect the British view and CNN the American.
Qatar has remained unaffected by the 'Arab spring'and the Emir only last week peacefully transferred power to his son , the crown prince due to ill health.
Of course the fact that Qataris have a small population and the highest per capita income in the world does help to suppress any desire for revolution.........
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I have just seen the above new posts .....Movilogo is correct in saying that religion is a uniting factor in the Middle East......
I was working for an Iranian company during the first Gulf war and made many good friends there many of whom were conscripts who had fought against Saddam for 20 years.... one in particular had seen his best friend blown to bits.......
But they were all absolutely united with their Muslim brothers in their hatred of the Great Satan.....
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''But they were all absolutely united with their Muslim brothers in their hatred of the Great Satan....''
Did that hatred include the UK, the poodle tail that gets wagged by the great satan?
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In the words of the great Churchill ..........
No , not Winston ...... the Dog...
OOOH YES....
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The OP wasn't a criticism of Islam and wasn't intended to encourage attacks on Islam. Quite the contrary. It was a criticism of the media and western powers for failing to point out gently that Morsi had been removed by the army in response to overwhelming public demand after he used the presidency to perpetrate an Islamist con trick.
The Muslim Brothers have generally opposed the use of violence, unlike some other Islamist groups. However some of its leaders have now sent their followers out to fight the army in the streets in defence of the democracy they don't understand and don't want.
A majority of Egyptians do have some understanding of democracy and do want it. The picture is being dangerously clouded by the events on the streets. The real underlying issues are being ignored by opinion-makers in favour of a simplistic tabloid army-versus-people narrative.
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>> a simplistic tabloid army-versus-people narrative.
>>
The "good general" to a liberal is a similar unwelcome concept as the original "Good Samaritan".
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The army has run Egypt to its own benefit since it booted out King Farouk 61 years ago. Anyone who thinks otherwise had better engage with the real world. And that includes media organisations engaged in the sort of brainless coverage of events Tahrir Square two years ago, one year ago and now.
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>> The army has run Egypt to its own benefit since it booted out King Farouk 61 years ago.
Yes. But it hasn't on the whole been a bloodstained tyranny by the standards of the region. Egypt is a mature, laid-back place, used to endemic corruption but displeased by extremism, violence and so on. I was only there once or twice, in Sadat's time, but I was very struck by that aspect. It didn't feel like a fascist regime a la Saddam or the ghastly Syrian dynasty, and obviously wasn't one.
I'm sure the generals are pretty terrible fellows, but they aren't stupid although many here and elsewhere seem convinced they are. They are trying to be honest brokers to prevent their compatriots from freaking out and costing money and lives. That's the way it looks to me.
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I would like to nominate Zero (fourth post) for the Mona Seif prize for the most inappropriate inclusion of Jew or Israel in a forum thread.
Well Done!
Simon B
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>> I would like to nominate Zero (fourth post) for the Mona Seif prize for the
>> most inappropriate inclusion of Jew or Israel in a forum thread.
>> Well Done!
>>
>> Simon B
>>
Disagree. Zero's post was a rational response, with example, as to how comments about religions other than Islam raise alleagations of 'ism' and/or are self censored.
I've seen and heard enough evidence to be absolutely sure that the holocaust took place and that the numbers quoted and the broad history around the camps, abuses of humanity and mass murders are correct. Those who deny it absolutely look like nutters.
There is though room for research, debate and argument about the role of individuals and specific sites/events. No law should constrain that.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Thu 11 Jul 13 at 11:17
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And well done, SimonB, for proving Zero right.
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As far as I know, there is no statute forbidding denying the Holocaust in British law; as there should not be.
Zero, in his post was not denying the Holocaust, he was complaining about the "Jewish Lobby" and its attempts to ban discussion of the subject. The "Jewish Lobby", a pejorative description which can be used to provide a fig leaf for the user's racist views, is trying to promote discussion of the Holocaust so that the memory of the slaughter of Jews, Gypsies, Homosexuals and others by their millions is not forgotten and consigned to the dustbin of forgotten history.
My complaint was why Jews?
As this thread is about Egypt and The Moslem Brotherhood, it would have been far more appropriate for Zero to carry on with that meme rather than to try to shift the focus to the "Jewish Lobby" aka Jews.
In Sharanski's 3D test, Demonization, Double Standards, Delegitimization are the signs of the modern anti-Semitism: in my opinion, Zero's post was a step along the way.
SimonB
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So no criticism of the Jewish peoples allowed for fear of the accusation of anti-semitism. There's at least one other religion I can think of, many of whose proponents share your view that their religion should be immune from criticism.
All religions are soppy old guff and should be accorded the same protections against criticism - none.
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Of course you can criticise Jews. I do it 20 times a day, from my boss, who won't take my advice, to the bus driver, who scared me half to death this morning, to the dustmen, who left half my rubbish.
What you can't do is build a strawman "The Jewish Lobby", ascribe to it false intentions and then castigate them. Well, of course, you can do this but you are only revealing your own prejudices.
I disagree with your views on religions in general, but there are many that can be decribed soppy old guff.
For me, religion is a second, external conscience which is there to fortify my innate one.
Simon B
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>> I disagree with your views on religions in general, but there are many that can
>> be decribed soppy old guff.
The irony is strong with this one.
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I think it's a bit of over thinking of zero's post too much. It looks to me like you look out for such posts and then over analyise them, for example your reference to some unknown person's obscure test.
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Sooty,
I tend to read the threads here, dare I say religiously, as I am bored and underused at work. I have often been tempted to reply to K9 for his ad hominem attacks on Israel but it is not worth the effort arguing with someone who has a closed mind.
Today, the inappropriateness of Zero's post moved me to add my twopence worth.
Simon B
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>> Sooty,
>> I tend to read the threads here, dare I say religiously
In a religious manner, quite so.
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Simon,
Like you I don't think there is any UK ban on holocaust denial though such things have been mooted.
I accept that the term 'Jewish Lobby' can be used pejoratively. It does however also have currency to imply a degree of questioning over the role of , amongst others in the UK, the Chief Rabbi, the Board of Deputies and the Chronicle attempting to influence the UK (or devolved) governments.
Recognising that there is a vocal, influential and well funded voice for Judaism and for the State of Israel does not imply anti-semitism. It does imply the need for a degree of realism and even scepticism over that sectors publications and activities.
To repeat myself again Zeddo simply sought to counter the view that Islam alone sheltered behind accusations of racism or similar in dealing with those who disagree with its position or tenets.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Thu 11 Jul 13 at 13:16
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>> in my opinion, Zero's post was a step along the way.
>>
>> SimonB
Zeros post was not a step away, merely an example used to debunk a point that Islam was the only religion that was getting special protection in the UK media, officially or otherwise.
The Jewish Lobby exists, indeed the Simon Wiesenthal organisation has freely described its activities in the past as lobbying, so is in no way a pejorative description.
It was totally appropriate to use a reference to wide spread legislation across Europe specifically criminalising Holocaust Denial, as a reference to real religious protection, and your complaint "why Jews" is completely without merit, and your claims that it is anti-semetic is baseless.
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Off to a concert now.The weekend starts here.
I'll reply tomorrow, if anybody's interested.
Simon B
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I am agnostic, but religion has its place, and we should take the best from Islam, Judaism, and Christianity.
Take Friday, Saturday, and Sunday off.
Last edited by: Zero on Thu 11 Jul 13 at 15:14
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Be careful what you wish for... if you have to spend a good part of those days in the synagogue, mosque and church (supervised by heavily-armed members of the faithful) it may not seem so attractive.
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Egypt - Roger.
