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Man dead in suspected Woolwich terror attack. Just google it.
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Summary - looks like an off duty squaddie was killed in a random attack - the offenders hng around long enough to be confronted by armed Police and were shot. Described as a terrorist attack. The nearer the gutter the press, the more gruesome the detail.
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Odd comment from Auntie - "The Queen is being kept informed"...
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Did you see the dark fellow performing in front of the camera?
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>> Did you see the dark fellow performing in front of the camera?
>>
Whatever his politics he looked to have serious mental issues IMO.
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Nice to see the Copper shouting at the bystanders to "Get back".
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>> Nice to see the Copper shouting at the bystanders to "Get back".
Yes, charming. Noisy jumped-up arrogant so-and-so, screaming at the media like an idiot.
Listen babe, we got two kinds of publicity, favourable and otherwise. You want some otherwise already?
Tchah!
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Strangely both of the suspects who threatened the police at the scene with weapons survived being shot by the armed police marksmen who attended, could have been a favourable scenario for the use of tazers.
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May have been wearing body armour I suppose........easy to analyse in retrospect though.
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>> Strangely both of the suspects who threatened the police at the scene with weapons survived
>> being shot by the armed police marksmen who attended, could have been a favourable scenario
>> for the use of tazers.
>>
You have to get quite close to use a taser, as I understand it. Not sure I would have wanted to get that close!
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If they were shot, why are they not dead?
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the cops must have been using low velocity rounds under the circumstances ( built up area lots of innocent bystanders) given the choice tho i would have opted for dumb dumb bullets and blew them away...no expensive trial etc etc
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From what I've heard, there was a considerable delay ( 20 mins) in the police getting there, because the original call(s) stated the suspects had firearms...but the firearms unit wasn't anywhere nearby.
The local units were dispatched quickly...but only to a rendezvous point, not to the scene.
Meanwhile, women, children etc were milling about in the vicinity of two madmen.
Just as well these two clowns only wanted to kill one person, wasn't it.
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Looks like Enoch was right all along.
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I could not agree more. However successive Government's of whatever persuasion have allowed this to happen and that is simply to let these low life scum 'in'. Allow them citizenship. Allow them to breed and the rest is history and whatever one says it is tooooo late to do chuff all about it. If the dog plays up it gets chastised and a wagging finger. If it bites we up the game. If it bites again it gets a whack and the third time I WOULD shoot it. I see little reason to exclude Humans (sic) from this scenario.
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>>However successive Government's of whatever persuasion have allowed this to happen and that is simply to let these low life scum 'in'<<
I often wonder ya know, if these killings could have anything to do with the tens of thousands of Muslim people, including women and children, that 'Great' Britain and America have killed in the Middle East in the last 10 years or so.
Last edited by: Dog on Thu 23 May 13 at 07:21
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The Daily Mail has it that some woman confronted them before the Police arrived.
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>> Just as well these two clowns only wanted to kill one person, wasn't it.
Its a very strange, almost unique scenario. I bet this one hasn't been considered or planned for.
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Can't plan for that or many other situations my friend. Armed response not in locality. Huh!
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>> Its a very strange, almost unique scenario. I bet this one hasn't been considered or
>> planned for.
>>
The specifics don't need to be planned for.
Nutter wants to kill people with......(insert weapon).......Police need to attend sharpish with the right tools to deal with it, i.e. (usually) firearms.
If the nearest firearms unit is 20 minutes away (no criticism of the individuals involved, in any way shape or form) then how many could die in that time?
If this was the beginnings of another Mumbai or one of those American school nutters...20 minutes would have meant a catastrophe.
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>> i would have opted for dumb dumb bullets and blew them away
>>
They almost certainly did, as exposed core or "dum-dum" rounds are de rigeur for police use.
The last thing you want is for the thing to pass through the target and hit something behind it, as a fully jacketed round often will.
Exposed core rounds flatten on impact and are far less likely to make it through with any significant velocity remaining.
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>> Strangely both of the suspects who threatened the police at the scene with weapons survived
>> being shot by the armed police marksmen who attended, could have been a favourable scenario
>> for the use of tazers.
>>
Should've been a favoured scenario for the use of buckshot.
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Could have been a scenario for the use of more powerful firearms.
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>> Tchah!
For the record, I slightly regret that post. Even I am a bit upset by the truly horrible story.
What I hope is that the spooks and special branch will come down in blanket fashion on the families and friends of the two crazed halfwits and bust them if they had the faintest idea of what was in the wind. There's no other way of stopping this sort of thing, or reducing it. It's going to take a lot of manpower, and cooperation from Muslim organisations. Many will cooperate. Imams who justify this stuff... throw the key away. There must be limits to humane liberalism. There's a very flexible offence of 'incitement'. People clearly guilty of it are still at large.
Of course the ghastly Enoch Powell wasn't 'right'. These people may not be British born - although a lot are - but they have gone native in a big way. They learn that crap here. It's commonplace. When they nip off to the Middle East to recharge their batteries, don't let them back in. Send their families and pussy cats to join them if that's what they want.
Last edited by: Armel Coussine on Thu 23 May 13 at 00:02
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"Of course the ghastly Enoch Powell ..........."
Yes, as a young man, I too used to think that Enoch was ghastly .............
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>> Yes, as a young man, I too used to think
Yes Haywain, I came round to him a bit later in life too. But the foaming Tiber speech was definitely a step too far and encouraged racism, which probably wasn't his intention. It was an awful political mistake. He was too eccentric to make it to the top in politics although very intelligent.
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>>
>> >> Yes, as a young man, I too used to think
>>
>> Yes Haywain, I came round to him a bit later in life too. But the
>> foaming Tiber speech was definitely a step too far and encouraged racism, which probably wasn't
>> his intention. It was an awful political mistake. He was too eccentric to make it
>> to the top in politics although very intelligent.
>>
www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/3643823/Enoch-Powells-Rivers-of-Blood-speech.html
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>> www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/3643823/Enoch-Powells-Rivers-of-Blood-speech.html
Thanks for posting that Roger. Little of what he predicted has come to pass.
The quote about the white woman and a 'respectable' street in Wolverhampton looks just like some of the myths peddled by today's racists.
Quite shocking that as recently as 1968 an opposition front bench spokesman (Defence?) could get away with such language.
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>> Thanks for posting that Roger. Little of what he predicted has come to pass.
Yes, thanks a lot Rastaman. Casting an eye over that made me remember what the speech really was: a bid for support and votes from existing racists who were and still are numerous. It wasn't so innocent really: Powell was dabbling in realpolitik and probably thought that encouraging the Alf Garnetts was just collateral damage, undesirable but worthwhile if it propelled him to national prominence.
I was pleased and relieved that the nation at large, and the political class that represented it, rejected the vulgar and defective reasoning behind the speech, of which Powell of all people must have been aware. So he got his hands dirty for nothing. The same thing, or something like it, seems to be happening to Mr Vuvuzela and UKIP (fingers crossed though).
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The fact that we are too frightened of the slurs of "racist" to comment on current affairs as we might wish is indicative that our enemies are winning.
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>> The fact that we are too frightened of the slurs of "racist" to comment on current affairs as we might wish is indicative that our enemies are winning.
Cobblers Rastaman. You just have to find the words. Unless of course you are a racist, in which case your enemies deserve to win, hmmmm?
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>> >> The fact that we are too frightened of the slurs of "racist" to comment
>> on current affairs as we might wish is indicative that our enemies are winning.
>>
>> Cobblers Rastaman. You just have to find the words. Unless of course you are a
>> racist, in which case your enemies deserve to win, hmmmm?
My point proven!
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>> The fact that we are too frightened of the slurs of "racist" to comment on
>> current affairs as we might wish is indicative that our enemies are winning.
>>
I agree. At the risk of being called a racist, there wasn't anywhere near as much of this kind of thing happening in Britain before it became a "multinational society".
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When was Britain NOT a multinational society?
And "Jihad" type attacks are still waaaaaaaaaaaay below the level of IRA activity through the 70s and 80s.
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>> When was Britain NOT a multinational society?
Before approximately 1950.
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>> >> When was Britain NOT a multinational society?
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>> Before approximately 1950.
So why was the first Mosque in Northern Europe built in Woking in 1889?
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Our history is full of things like this, long before the rest of the world had even been discovered.
But to bring it further closer to this time, an almost direct parallel was two British Army personnel being dragged from their car, stripped and beaten by a howling civilian mob, hauled away, shot in the head, and bodies dumped.
Not a single black person within 50 miles of the event, no muslims, all white anglo saxons, all christian church goers.
The cause of this event in Woolwich is not immigration, its the British government sticking its nose into places it shouldn't be, and for no good reason.
Last edited by: Zero on Fri 24 May 13 at 08:41
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>> The cause of this event in Woolwich is not immigration, its the British government sticking its nose into places it shouldn't be, and for no good reason.
That is very close to what the Islamists say actually. Perhaps you'd care to expand on it a bit, flesh it out a little?
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>> That is very close to what the Islamists say actually.
Further to that: the essential component in these criminal murderous attacks must be the pathology of the individuals who make them. The slippery Islamist ideology - a modern political phenomenon, almost entirely separate from the religion of Islam which forbids killing except in self-defence - as retailed by so-called Imams and poisonous British smart-alecks like the disgusting Chaudhury, is really just an excuse for these damaged and confused people to do what they really want to do.
In the case of meat-cleaver man the other day - born here in fact - he is recorded as saying a good few years back that he had the 'right' to behead enemies of Islam. He wanted to behead someone and feel virtuous about it. And now he has had a go, along with his impressionable buddy.
As for the root causes of Islamism, they belong elsewhere to a very large extent. But let's not go into that here. We are sufficiently entangled with the real culprits for this minority of alienated halfwits to blame us.
There are signs that the real Muslims are becoming impatient with these events. One can only hope that they make an intellectual contribution to the rebuttal of Islamism, because it's clear most of us aren't up to it.
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>>there wasn't anywhere near as much of this kind of thing happening in Britain before it became a "multinational society
Absolutely true.
Damned Romans, Vikings, Normans really messed it up.
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>> The fact that we are too frightened of the slurs of "racist" to comment on
>> current affairs as we might wish is indicative that our enemies are winning.
Interesting choice of words. Immigrants are now the "enemy" are they.
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>> Interesting choice of words. Immigrants are now the "enemy" are they.
Your words - not mine.
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>> no - your words.
Agree with Zero. It's difficult to put any other interpretation on the words you used yesterday.
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I'm sure UKIP will be proud - although you might have let it slip before they were ready.
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"Yes Haywain, I came round to him a bit later in life too'
It's interesting how one's perspective changes with age. I now find myself agreeing with much of what Lord Tebbit says ....... mind you, Norman has also started to think like me - after all, he has made the move to Bury St Edmunds!
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" It's going to take a lot of manpower, and cooperation from Muslim organisations" Agreed, and on that basis it won't happen; we don't have the manpower and many of them don't have the wish to help.
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>> Odd comment from Auntie - "The Queen is being kept informed"...
What's Elton John's interest in it?
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no doubt these scumbags will get the best medical support and top barristers in what will probably be a lengthy extradition battle...theresa may needs to grow a pair and consider bringing back hanging,
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A better strategy would be to kill them and issue a statement that those two didn't survive the bullet shots.
Otherwise even if they go to jail, they'll be out after few years on human(?) right and public memory is usually very short anyway.
So back to square 1.
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>> no doubt these scumbags will get the best medical support and top barristers in what
>> will probably be a lengthy extradition battle...theresa may needs to grow a pair and consider
>> bringing back hanging,
Judging by the accent in the vids I'd wager at least one of them was London born and bred so nowhere to extradite to. Home grown nutters 'converting' to Islam are grossly over represented amongst the cohort carrying out terror offences.
No point in even thinking about the death penalty. The British hangman has long been our opponents best recruiting Sergeant (see Ireland and colonial wars passim).
As Z says further down, stripped to its basics this is a London street killing.
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Elton John is A queen - HM is THE Queen.
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Photos just in - the Home Secretary in person directing operations:
tinyurl.com/omgmokx
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It's grim op North down sowf.
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Its unfortunate for the soldier and his family of course, and my sympathies. But this is a lot of fuss about not much. Anyone who has lived and worked in London since 1973 will be completely unmoved by this after a life of various terrorist bombings and outrages.
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>> Anyone who has lived and worked in
>> London since 1973 will be completely unmoved by this after a life of various terrorist
>> bombings and outrages.
Precisely.
And with regard to all the people bleating on in various places today about kicking out Muslims and how it wouldn't have happened in the good old days, I don't recall calls to boot out the Irish living here when the IRA planted 370 bombs on the British mainland during the 70's and 80's.
Fanatics are fanatics. To associate them in any way with the "cause" they claim to represent just gives them a degree of legitimacy which they don't deserve. They are medieval scum. Nothing more, nothing less. The vast majority of Muslims are no more of a threat to society than you or I.
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I just find it odd that in most (?all) other instances where guns are being wielded around the suspects have ended up dead, I could have believed if one had survived but both of them?
I also found it odd that on the ITV 10pm news the station decided to cut the video clip where the men where tackled by the firearms squad BUT they left in the shocking bit where the guy with the knife and meat clever covered in blood comes to the camera and makes a short speech before returning to the victim on the ground, not that I wanted in anyway to see anyone being shot just a strange choice to make.
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We are our own worse enemies here.
If the news simply reported "Man stabbed to death in Woolwich", it would be factual, not at all unusual, would warrant no more than three lines in the South East London advertiser inside page, and the fanatics would be starved of publicity - no point if no-one kicks up a fuss.
But what do we do? National crisis proportions.
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I don't watch the news, but I do watch my collared doves feeding at the bird table, was the man actually beheaded?
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According to the Telegraph, there's an internet campaign to buy something from the Help for Heroes charity...as a sort of two fingers to those that have warped minds and think that violence like this would influence the decent majority.
I understand the victim was a soldier and was wearing a H4H t-shirt.
I'm trying to enter the website as I type, but it's frozen. I shall be buying several.
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I gave HFH a small bung some time ago in a motor factor near here. Got one of those colourful rubber bracelets in return and have worn it ever since. It goes well with my other bracelets.
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>>...as a sort of two fingers to those that have warped minds and think that violence like this would influence the decent majority
what will that achieve? Do you think extremists (if thats what we have here) are going to say oh lets stand down because folks are buying from a website?
Its like the disaster in Oklahoma - houses and all contents totally wiped out but there was a couple of guys hanging their stars'n'stripes between two trees as an act of defiance? Listen buddy, your house has been wiped out by a force of nature, your flag ain't gonna stop it.
Re this killing, I can't help but think Cameron etc are using it for political gain, was there not recent unrest amongst the Tories about something or other that will be quashed now?
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>> >>...as a sort of two fingers to those that have warped minds and think that
>> violence like this would influence the decent majority
>>
>> what will that achieve?
It would be my way of giving two fingers to those that think like that. A civilised and polite reminder that their warped ways will not make a jot of difference to the rest of us.
I agree it won't change them...but it's better than letting them think most of us are bowed by what they do.
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>> I agree it won't change them...but it's better than letting them think most of us
>> are bowed by what they do.
We can do that by ignoring them.
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>> We can do that by ignoring them.
>>
Yeah, I'd agree with that...but I'll be doing it wearing my new H4H Polo shirt.
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>> no point if no-one kicks up a fuss.
>> But what do we do? National crisis proportions.
The problem with that is that the media aren't under state control but are 'free'. And who could resist running a live story with bloodstained fanatic ranting in the street over a corpse?
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Z has a point though. What worries me is if I grab a meat cleaver and go and hack some unfortunate soul to death, I am quite rightly branded a nutter, someone who should be locked up. If I do the same to a soldier, I am branded a nutter. If I shout "Praise to the Lord" while i am doing it I am branded a religious nutter. If I shout "Praise be to Allah" I am branded a terrorist, the Prime Minister has to comment, COBRA meets, MI5 gets involved, there is much wringing of hands and utterance of the T word. The press assists this frenzy and the whole thing is escalated out of proportion, no wonder it alienates some folk.
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MI5 has to justify its resistance to job cuts you know.
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>>no wonder it alienates some folk<<
And encourages others who are looking for their moment of glory.
Pat
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These two individuals ought to get a really long sentence of about three months...
...in a military prison.
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>> ...in a military prison.
I dont think the glasshouse is quite as bed as it used to be. Even military prisoners have "rights"
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>> I dont think the glasshouse is quite as bed as it used to be. Even
>> military prisoners have "rights"
>>
Not in the showers or the excercise yard.
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>> >>no wonder it alienates some folk<<
>>
>> And encourages others who are looking for their moment of glory.
>>
>> Pat
I plan a longer reign than "momentary"
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We are pleased that the IPCC have announced there will be no criminal or misconduct charges levelled against the Metropolitan Police Officers involved in yesterday's shooting in Greenwich.
Such an incident is stressful for all concerned and this early announcement will assist the officers in their return to normal duties at the earliest opportunity.
Met PolFed.
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>> We are pleased that the IPCC have announced there will be no criminal or misconduct
>> charges levelled against the Metropolitan Police Officers involved in yesterday's shooting in Greenwich.
>>
>> Such an incident is stressful for all concerned and this early announcement will assist the
>> officers in their return to normal duties at the earliest opportunity.
>>
>> Met PolFed.
I think that is the Met Police Federation trying to play the IPCC's hand...there hasn't been a statement from the IPCC saying no charges or no prosecution...just no investigation at this stage.
Tomorrow morning could have something else come up..and a different 'stage' reached and hey presto, an investigation.
www.ipcc.gov.uk/news/Pages/pr_230513MPSwoolwichverified.aspx
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The armed response need 're-training'. Save us money next time. Short sharp justice should prevail. Why an investigation?
R.I.P. the Young Man. The thoughts from myself and my Family are with you and yours.
MD
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Where were the MoD Police while the murder was being committed? It seems they were culled in 2008 in a defence "review". But apparently sentries at the gates are not allowed to venture off-base, for fear of prosecution. Tragic. tinyurl.com/p7uglp4
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>> Where were the MoD Police while the murder was being committed? It seems they were
>> culled in 2008 in a defence "review". But apparently sentries at the gates are not
>> allowed to venture off-base, for fear of prosecution. Tragic. tinyurl.com/p7uglp4
Clearly the gate guard never saw the event happen, or if they did never connected it to military matters, they would have called it out, no troops turned up so they didn't. If the gate guard never raised the alarm nor would the MP's.
Completely pointless & disingenuous reporting.
Last edited by: Zero on Fri 24 May 13 at 08:19
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Given other, recent events at or near to a weak point of an army base, I'd have expected the exterior to be under surveillance. It may not have been, which is a little surprising.
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>> Given other, recent events at or near to a weak point of an army base,
>> I'd have expected the exterior to be under surveillance. It may not have been, which
>> is a little surprising.
>>
Bearing in mind it takes less than a minute to ram someone with a car and set about them with a weapon all the surveillance in the world wouldn't do much good unless you had coppers stationed along the road at ten yard intervals. Ditto the criticism of MI5 who had the suspects on their list of baddies, there must be tens of thousands on the security service books and you can't follow them all 24/7.
Some things are impossible to prevent if the perpetrator is determined enough.
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>>Some things are impossible to prevent if the perpetrator is determined enough.
Killing someone is only difficult if you wish to survive and/or escape yourself.
Otherwise it is easy to do and impossible to prevent.
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>> it is easy to do and impossible to prevent.
Yes. But most people are prevented from putting such fantasies into effect (all men have them, dunno about women but they probably do) by their childhood moral conditioning, which with most people is very strong and lasts a lifetime.
What's interesting in these acts of political terrorism is the mechanism for unlocking that prohibition. These jihadis aren't psychopaths exactly, people with no moral consciousness at all. Indeed they think themselves morally superior to decadent irreligious westerners. The mechanism that gives them the excuse to behave like psychopaths is complex and roundabout. But the only way to really combat it is piecemeal, component by component. That's where the real problem lies, in the intellectual challenge.
Without a lot of help from real Muslims it's simply a lost cause. I may know that murder is unIslamic, but no Islamist is likely to accept that coming from me. It would take a fellow believer who knows the Koran by heart. And even they can get shouted down in the mosque by smart-aleck mischief-makers whose motives are purely egotistical.
Fundamentalist Christianists in the US, indeed everywhere, are very similar actually. They call themselves Christians just as Islamists pretend they are Muslims.
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>> Fundamentalist Christianists in the US, indeed everywhere, are very similar actually. They call themselves Christians
>> just as Islamists pretend they are Muslims.
>>
>>
They don't have to pretend anything, just as Christian fundamentalists don't have to pretend they are Christian. All these faiths are based on fantasies handed down by word of mouth in the first instance and are open to whatever interpretation their believers chose to put on them.
It's how IRA bombers could go to Mass the day after blowing up civilian targets convinced they were good Catholics.
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"Fundamentalist Christianists in the US, indeed everywhere, are very similar actually. They call themselves Christians just as Islamists pretend they are Muslims. "
Remind me of the last fundamentalist Christian who was a suicide bomber...
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>> Remind me of the last fundamentalist Christian who was a suicide bomber...
I said they were similar, not identical in every respect. There are people who describe themselves as Christians who are clearly bullying, troublemaking villains. They are a minority although as with Islamist ideas in Islam, some of their attitudes don't get the scrutiny they deserve from real, ordinary, believing, non-militant Christians.
It simply doesn't matter whether you believe any of this crap or not. What counts really is that huge masses of people do believe it, or bits of it. There's no point in alienating them just to show how rational you are, if you hope to engage any of them in dialogue.
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>> Clearly the gate guard never saw the event happen, or if they did never connected
>> it to military matters, they would have called it out, no troops turned up so
>> they didn't. If the gate guard never raised the alarm nor would the MP's.
>>
>>
>> Completely pointless & disingenuous reporting.
>>
Mod plod originally did not have civilian police powers. Then they did.
Nowadays they can and do react to stuff outside their jurisdiction, but try to limit it, because it takes them away from their main role.
If there had been Mod plod at the barracks...and they were armed...they might have helped, if someone had told them.
Soldiers specifically would not help with a civilian matter, it's beyond their role. In many cases the soldiers on guard duty don't have ammo up the spout anyway.
I'm not saying a crowd of squaddies wouldn't have run out if they'd known one of their own was being attacked...but if all they knew was there was an incident outside, the army would not get involved, Mod police might.
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point is, they never new it was happening till it was all over.
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>> point is, they never new it was happening till it was all over.
Even viewed close up some witnesses thought it at first to be an RTA. Even when the hacking starts it looks like gang crime. Every reason for military to miss or leave it to civvy police to deal with.
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Westpig makes alot of good points with regards to the realities of military armed guards responding to incidents off station. For our London based members how far off the main gate was this?
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>> how far off the main gate was this?
Round a corner or so I think, but I don't know the place well.
What seems to have happened is that the killers ran the guy down, or over, with a small car which they left crunched against a lamp post, and then set about the dying or dead victim, first dragging him into the road.
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Thanks AC, as I thought. It seems if that was the case, it's more a matter of how quickly they could be arrested rather than stopping the original crime. Little anyone could do if it happened quickly. Still the nature after the crime of hanging about, speechs into people's phones while they put it onto the internet, all very odd. Some sort of mental issues afoot here.
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>> Still the nature after the crime of hanging
>> about, speechs into people's phones while they put it onto the internet, all very odd.
>> Some sort of mental issues afoot here.
Well, to begin with, it is almost impossible for one human to kill another, unless they are a psychopath. Certainly if they are not in a kill or be killed situation.
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>> >> Still the nature after the crime of hanging
>> >> about, speechs into people's phones while they put it onto the internet, all very
>> odd.
>> >> Some sort of mental issues afoot here.
>>
>> Well, to begin with, it is almost impossible for one human to kill another, unless
>> they are a psychopath. Certainly if they are not in a kill or be killed
>> situation.
>>
>>
>>
I'm not too sure thats right SS. There's a lot of killing in the world, so I don't think its almost impossible. As for the need to be in a kill or be killed, if that's true I most have worked with a lot of psychopaths.
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>> it is almost impossible for one human to kill another, unless they are a psychopath.
What you mean is that people are morally conditioned against killing another human. But the act itself can be tragically easy when people are sticking knives in each other for example. It just has to go in a bit too far or in the wrong place and someone's dying or dead. Happens all the time among excitable macho teenagers.
Horrible professional thugs are unlikely to kill someone by accident, but scared teenagers quite often do.
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>> Horrible professional thugs are unlikely to kill someone by accident, but scared teenagers quite often
>> do.
>>
And most domestic murders are heat of the moment acts of violence.
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Actually they are mostly the end of an ongoing escalating path of violence. The "crime of passion" is pretty rare in comparison.
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>> >> it is almost impossible for one human to kill another, unless they are a
>> psychopath.
>>
>> What you mean is that people are morally conditioned against killing another human. But the
>> act itself can be tragically easy when people are sticking knives in each other for
>> example. It just has to go in a bit too far or in the wrong
>> place and someone's dying or dead. Happens all the time among excitable macho teenagers.
Not quite. You generally still need to be a psychopath. Which, after all, is about 1% of the population. So, in a school of, say, 600 kids, you'll have about 6 of them. As for spouse killing spouse, on a street of 100 houses, well you can do the maths.
A lot of money has been spent trying to get soldiers to actually kill the enemy, rather than go through the motions. The best they've achieved is to try to train it as a reflex in a given combat situation, rather than actually condition them to be able to kill.
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You mean they are brainwashed to kill.
Some people kill more easily than others.
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>> You generally still need to be a psychopath.
No doubt it helps SS, but you are wrong really. A lot of murders or killings are not consciously intentional and cause remorse. The habit of violent abuse mentioned rightly by Zero is a case in point. A rough bullying drunken brute and wife abuser may well not be clinically psychopathic, just the product of a hideous background, and going a step too far may cause a lifetime of remorse (for what it's worth under the circumstances).
Not too many murdering carphounds here though we hope. Other places are a lot worse. You don't want the floodgates opening.
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A psychopath is more calculating.I a war situation you become a hero.
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>> >> You generally still need to be a psychopath.
>>
>> No doubt it helps SS, but you are wrong really. A lot of murders or
>> killings are not consciously intentional and cause remorse.
Ah yes, you are right if there is no intention to kill. If you punch somebody perhaps, and they fall and hit their head, for example. Or, if you are using a knife to threaten someone and they tussle with you, that kind of thing.
Deliberately sticking a knife in somebody, even on the spur of the moment is a different kettle of fish though, and certainly in the case of Woolwich. I think that there is little doubt that they are psychopaths.
Of course, if you are trying to groom terrorists, you have the same problem that armies have faced for many years. It's easy to get them to pick up a weapon and train with it, but when face to face, it is almost impossible to use it to kill.
You can groom thousands of potentials, who will talk all night about what they would like to do westerners, but for many it will just be talk. For a few, they actually might buy into surrendering their lives for the "cause", but then only a few (1%?) of them would actually carry out an act such as Woolwich.
It's perhaps one of the reason that there is so little terrorism. It's very hard to find the people who will actually carry it out.
If you're interested and have the time, this documentary is well worth a look on the subject.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=2vlGR7S2wcI
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>> if you are trying to groom terrorists
You have to do three different things. You have to find angry and bitter people who feel rightly or wrongly that they are marginalised and despised for racial or other reasons, and raise their morale by proving that they are as good as the next person and that society at large can be tagged with contemptuous epithets. You have to persuade them that there is a concerted attack on the religion they think they believe in by forces of Crusader (or whatever) evil. And you have to switch off their moral prohibition against murder with a combination of emotional argument and tortured reasoning putting the finger on selected scapegoat groups or individuals.
It's quite complicated, but Islamist ideology is seductive to many in a bewilderingly complex and confusing world. It's simple to understand: They call you Paki but they are worse, they are kuffar. They want to crush Islam because they always have. To this end they are murdering Muslims, massacring them in huge numbers. they pretend to be liberal but really they are all the same and all in it together. The preacher says the Book says that gives us the right to kill them. Any of them, all of them.
This has nothing whatsoever in common with the religion of Islam contained in the Book. The book doesn't say anything like that, its message is the opposite almost. Needless to say though, as in say the Bible or the I Ching, you can find a text that seems to justify anything if you look hard enough. But as I say: no Islamist would listen to that from me. It's the Muslims who have to refute Islamism.
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All this passion under the umbrella of religion seems only to occur in cultures that seem to identify with religion alone, and have no concept of a secular society.
I may by descent and cultural upbringing be a "Christian", but if I were identified in connection with some crime it would be ludicrous to describe me as "a man of Christian appearance".
No leader of any so-called Christian community is going to claim he represents me, nor would I accept one if he purported to be negotiating on my behalf.
I do not get agitated about wrongs suffered by my co-religionists in other parts of the world, nor even those next door. I would object to human injustices, but have no interest in the religions of the parties.
But it would appear that some, eg muslims, hindus, jews, cannot consider themselves as going under any other label.
It seems odd to me.
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>> It seems odd to me.
>>
....and so does being able to circumvent the general laws of a country, by invoking your religious rights and quietly daring anyone else to challenge you.
So the rest of us willingly comply with the laws on racism, sexism, homophobia, cruelty to animals etc.....whilst others?
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>>
>> >> It seems odd to me.
>> >>
>>
>> ....and so does being able to circumvent the general laws of a country, by invoking
>> your religious rights and quietly daring anyone else to challenge you.
>>
>> So the rest of us willingly comply with foot dragging reluctance to the laws on racism, sexism, homophobia, cruelty
>> to animals etc.....whilst others?
>>
FTFY!!
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Wed 29 May 13 at 12:34
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>>
>> FTFY!!
>>
You know what I mean though, don't you.
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>> But it would appear that some, eg muslims, hindus, jews, cannot consider themselves as going
>> under any other label.
>> It seems odd to me.
There are a number of possible reasons why some of these self identify by religion rather than nationality. History is the first and most obvious.
Jews, as potentially a race of their own and with a history of persecution going back centuries should need no further explanation. To some extent the same applies to Islam. A number of what we call Islamic countries, Pakistan is the most glaring example, are colonial or post colonial carve ups, at least in part to keep religions apart.
I've not seen much example of Hindu self identity - Indian heritage seems synonymous anyway.
The CofE is fairly laid back about self promotion although there is certainly a world wide Anglcan community who will sometimes speak collectively for its adherents. The globe trotting of various Popes and their influence (eg bans/restrictions on contraception and abortion and influence of elections) goes much further. Catholicism has a community and identity equal to nationality in some parts of the world- particularly where, like in Islam, nationality is superimposed on a clan or tribe identity.
Descriptions owe more to the eye of the beholder.
A person of 'Islamic appearance' simply relates to the religion's prescriptions on dress etc. It's likely to mean a man wearing a robe or similar anmd possibly with a long beard. A woman is likley to be wearing a hijab etc.
Don't think anyone would get away with 'of Jewish appearance' these days.
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>> Don't think anyone would get away with 'of Jewish appearance' these days.
They wouldn't write it down, but they might mutter it to someone. There are characteristic physiognomies. One's unspoken conclusion often turns out to be right too, depending to some extent on one's 'eye' and on other indications.
What is absolutely clear to me however is that you can also be wildly out, and can never be sure of being right about that sort of thing, judging a person's origin from their facial features, general physique and skin colour.
Another thing I've discovered is that people can do it back to you. In Kenya once in a roomful of Kenyans I was asked where I came from and carelessly replied that I was English. After a short, pregnant silence one of the Kenyans said rather disapprovingly: You're not English.
Of course that's quite true. My mother came from Malta and I certainly have Berber, Arab, Turk etc in my genealogy as well as half solid English with a bit of French, Scottish and Italian. Late in summer I could easily pass for an Arab, North African, Indian or Pakistani. What I'm not is pink and rubicund. Herself has some actual sub-Saharan Bantu via the Caribbean a century or so back, but you'd never think so.
Interesting stuff all this.
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Interesting anecdote. Of course it wouldn't work backwards. Imagine a white person in Britain telling someone who was superficially black and proud of it that of course he wasn't really, he was obviously mixed race.
I have searched all my family lines and haven't found a single drop of foreign blood. Not even Scottish, which I was rather keen to be once, having been born there.
I used to believe I had an American great-grandfather, but it turned out his father was a first-generation emigrant who changed his mind. I'm doomed to be irredeemably English.
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I am ashamed to say I have some Irish in my blood. It gets worse, its the pie key type as well.
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>>Don't think anyone would get away with 'of Jewish appearance' these days<<
But it could relate to dress in exactly the same way as your example. Ever wandered around Stamford Hill on a Saturday? tinyurl.com/Stamfordhill1
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A woman on a train starts talking to a fellow passenger. "Excuse me," she said, "but are you Jewish?"
"No," replied the man.
A few minutes later the woman returned. "Excuse me," she said again, "are you sure you're not Jewish?"
"I'm sure," said the man.
But the woman was not convinced, and a few minutes later she approached him a third time. "Are you absolutely sure you're not Jewish?" she asked?
"All right, all right," the man said. "You win. I'm Jewish."
"That's funny," said the woman." You don't look Jewish."
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>> >>Don't think anyone would get away with 'of Jewish appearance' these days<<
>>
I dropped an enormous cobbler once, about 15 years ago at work. Someone central had sent the nick some questionnaires that needed filling out and they needed to be completed by a white PC, white WPC, black PC and black WPC and indian PC and WPC.
Somewhere along the line, they landed on my desk..so as I was in a busy office, i thought i'd dish them out as the first person that fit that criteria, walked through the door.
When a young Indian looking lady walked in, i went through my spiel...and handed her the form.
Her response was: " I can if you like, but i'm not Indian"....then "Ooh, you've gone all red Sarge".
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>> You have to do three different things. You have to find angry and bitter people
>> who feel rightly or wrongly that they are marginalised and despised for racial or other
>> reasons, and raise their morale by proving that they are as good as the next
>> person and that society at large can be tagged with contemptuous epithets.
Just re-read this AC, brilliant summary, thanks.
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I was prompted to return to this thread by today's report of the Parliamentary Intelligent and Security Committee into the murder of Lee Rigby. It's brief conclusion is that MI5/6 ould not have prevented the murder but action over postings on a media site - believed to be Facebook - might have done.
Bit of an establishment cover up TBH.
I was though massively impressed by the spokesman for the Rigby family, an Uncle I think. Instead of following the usual 'blame and emotion' line which the media would no doubt have wanted his message was constructive and reflective about the lessons learned.
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>> I was though massively impressed by the spokesman for the Rigby family, an Uncle I
>> think. Instead of following the usual 'blame and emotion' line which the media would no
>> doubt have wanted his message was constructive and reflective about the lessons learned.
>>
Just watched him on Sky news. Paragon of good sense.
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>> The armed response need 're-training'. Save us money next time. Short sharp justice should prevail.
>>
The second suspect now released from hospital.
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-22734302
IIRC eight shots were fired but I thought shots were supposed to be aimed at the body so these two suspects seem to escaped relatively lightly.
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>> IIRC eight shots were fired but I thought shots were supposed to be aimed at
>> the body so these two suspects seem to escaped relatively lightly.
>>
If you point a gun at an armed copper expect a "kill" shot in reply.
If you "only" have a knife you can be stopped with a few shots in the legs and a potential valuable source of information is preserved. IMO.
I expect it saves a lot of paperwork and IPCC attention as well. :-)
Last edited by: Old Navy on Fri 31 May 13 at 18:27
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