Non-motoring > Mobile phone locations Miscellaneous
Thread Author: Slidingpillar Replies: 23
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New Sun 28 Apr 13 20:23 
 Mobile phone locations - Slidingpillar
I've always assumed, and I still think I'm right, that a basic mobile phone that does not have GPS cannot be located other than as what signals are picked up by the local phone towers. Given that they can only detect a signal level, I'd have thought the network would be doing extraordinarily well to get a phone location to within a 300yd circle, perhaps greater.

There is this link:
ec.europa.eu/digital-agenda/en/112-united-kingdom

That says The 112 operator can detect the location of the caller whithin 2 seconds. but I'd assume that an accurate location is only possible with a phone with GPS.

My brother today did a First Responders course for the Scout Association (he's an Explorer leader) and the person doing the course left everyone with the impression that the above applied to all mobile phones.

Anyone know of an authoritative site dealing with this issue as I'm having a hard time convincing my brother I'm not talking rubbish! And yes, he knows I have a full amateur licence and a degree in Electrical Engineering. I've read the Wikipedia article and it corresponds to my beliefs, but authoritative, it's not!
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New Sun 28 Apr 13 20:28 
 Mobile phone locations - CGNorwich
You can't get more authoritative that the Daily Mail. :-)

www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-205988/Mobile-999-calls-traced.htm
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New Sun 28 Apr 13 20:37 
 Mobile phone locations - Slidingpillar
Not sure I'd use the words authoritative and Daily Mail in the same sentence...

That article makes no mention of getting a phone's GPS location (if it's a GPS phone) and I've always assumed the good guys could do it, one so often reads about baddies doing it!
Last edited by: Slidingpillar on Sun 28 Apr 13 at 20:38
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New Sun 28 Apr 13 20:50 
 Mobile phone locations - Mike H
AFAIK a normal mobile phone can only be located to the cell that it's in - which roughly corresponds to the area served by the aerial that the phone has determined provides the best signal. Obviously on home soil, in your case in the UK, that will be the nearest aerial owned by your network provider, so there may be a nearer aerial for a different network. When roaming, i.e. abroad, the phone will use the best signal provided by an aerial belonging to a network which has a reciprocal agreement with your provider for the tariff that you're on (my wife and I have noticed when roaming that our UK phones are sometimes on different networks because one is PAYG and the other is on a contract).
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New Sun 28 Apr 13 21:02 
 Mobile phone locations - Dave
As the mobile phone system consists of cells (hence the name, cell phone), the phone is in communication with a number of cells at one time, even though only one cell is being used for the transmitting and receiving. It needs to stay in contact with surrounding cells so that it can switch between them (and switch frequency), depending on signal, load and location.

So maybe in theory the system can triangulate the location of the phone.
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New Sun 28 Apr 13 21:08 
 Mobile phone locations - Fullchat
Its already been done by triangulation. At least two different masts provide direction and where the lines bisect there you have the phone location. Not certain to what accuracy it works down to.

news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/4738219.stm
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New Sun 28 Apr 13 22:20 
 Mobile phone locations - Bromptonaut
The 999/112 operator can identify the cell transmitter through which you are connected.

A few years ago we witnessed a climber falling on the summit knob of Causey Pike - Newlands.

The operator taking my 999 call to Mountain Rescue put me at Braithwaite, a reasonable nearest point in habitation. A grid ref from my GPS and description of where we really were had a MR team member (walking nearby) there in under 20 minutes.

Land rover, team from Keswick plus helicopter were another 15.

At that time it didn't seem possible to triangulate but it may be by now.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Sun 28 Apr 13 at 22:22
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New Sun 28 Apr 13 22:21 
 Mobile phone locations - AnotherJohnH
The distance a mobile is from a cell is known approximately to 500 metres or so, AFAIR.

Google "GSM timing advance".

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New Sun 28 Apr 13 22:30 
 Mobile phone locations - Fursty Ferret
And with several masts that inaccuracy falls rapidly towards 100 metres or so.

Your phone also has other ways of identifying its location - for example, if it detects a wifi network nearby and that network has a published location (and you'd be surprised how many do), then you've got your location to about 30 metres.

Certainly when I fire up a mapping app on the phone, the coarse location tends to be within 10 - 150 metres of my true location, and the phone shows an inaccuracy of between 50 and 500 metres. Obviously depends on location density.

A final point - I have a Femtocell in my house and the address is registered with EE for the express purpose* of providing a location in the event of a 999 call. The service agreement I signed had some pretty draconian penalties for moving it and not telling them.

* So they tell me.
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New Sun 28 Apr 13 22:38 
 Mobile phone locations - Slidingpillar
About as clear as mud but...

If you know the timing advance, you know the rough distance (I'm unsure of the accuracy) to the used mast. That gives a circle around the used mast of width depending on the accuracy.

Then by measuring the signal strengths to other received masts, you get an estimate of which part of the circle the phone is in. I can see this helping the overall accuracy but I'm not sure it's that magic. I don't think you can get a timing advance figure from a mast you are not using - but I'm prepared to be proved wrong.

Getting a GPS phone to say 'I'm here' still strikes me as the best method, but it's only going to give the GPS accuracy if
a) your phone has GPS
b) the network provider has the means to ask it
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New Sun 28 Apr 13 22:41 
 Mobile phone locations - No FM2R
The MNO can usually triangulate, anyone else can only know the current broadcast tower using the CID.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Sun 28 Apr 13 at 22:42
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New Sun 28 Apr 13 22:56 
 Mobile phone locations - henry k
The only problem I have is no signal at home.
It has been like it for about six weeks now ( upgrading to 4G ?)
I will returning a call from "The Excutive Ofiice" in the morning.
I expect some excuse and techno garbage.
This is the second time we have suffered extended rubbish service from a company who do not seem to know who they are!!
I emailed everythingeverywhere and in a response from Orange it said sorry my EE was a problem. No mention of T Mobile which sometimes appears on my phone :-(
I am not alone - the same executive office has a view.
www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/mediatechnologyandtelecoms/telecoms/8848832/Everything-Everywhere-chief-Olaf-Swantee-says-company-name-is-silly.html
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New Mon 29 Apr 13 05:58 
 Mobile phone locations - Meldrew
NMA = Not Much Anywhere? My local Vodafone signal, at home, varies randomly between 4 Bars and "No Service" BTW
Last edited by: Meldrew on Mon 29 Apr 13 at 05:59
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New Mon 29 Apr 13 08:07 
 Mobile phone locations - Zero
The telco can triangulate to about 150 metres using adjacent cells, (where the cells are dense and small) and provide a rough location. Where there are less cells this of course gets much bigger.

All the other methods (GPS or Wifi hotspots) are unreliable remotely for the simple reason you can turn them off (or not allow their use remotely)
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New Tue 30 Apr 13 19:46 
 Mobile phone locations - spamcan61
>> The telco can triangulate to about 150 metres using adjacent cells, (where the cells are
>> dense and small) and provide a rough location. Where there are less cells this of
>> course gets much bigger.
>>
>> All the other methods (GPS or Wifi hotspots) are unreliable remotely for the simple
>> reason you can turn them off (or not allow their use remotely)
>>
Indeed; in the mid 90s I had to do an awful lot of sums on this subject, as the Americans were already pushing for better than 100yds positioning accuracy using GSM infrastructure. E-OTD versus U-TDOA. In practical terms anything better than 200yds. was pushing it.
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New Mon 29 Apr 13 10:13 
 Mobile phone locations - henry k
>>I will returning a call from "The Excutive Ofiice" in the morning.
>>I expect some excuse and techno garbage.

Wrong on both the above.
Just got a call from their office.

"The engineers say the problem SHOULD be fixed by SEPTEMBER !!!!"

What a way to run a company!!! Next move ???
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New Mon 29 Apr 13 10:38 
 Mobile phone locations - Fursty Ferret
henry -

Ask for a free Signal Box. I was in a similar situation and throwing a tantrum over the phone produced results.

business.ee.co.uk/public-sector/products/coverage-solutions/signal-box

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New Mon 29 Apr 13 11:37 
 Mobile phone locations - movilogo
Even without GPS activation inside phone, your mobile relays lot more info you think.

As other mentioned, one mobile tower indicates phone is anywhere within its radius. Two towers will reduce that to a smaller area (where 2 tower's range circles intersect). With 3 or more towers it becomes very easy.

Your mobile also transmits IMEI number. So big brothers can point out your (mobile's) location.

Criminals are frequently caught using mobile locations all over the world.

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New Mon 29 Apr 13 13:15 
 Mobile phone locations - AnotherJohnH
>> "The engineers say the problem SHOULD be fixed by SEPTEMBER !!!!"

>> What a way to run a company!!!

>> Next move ???


Pin them down to the year when the fix is expected ?
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New Tue 30 Apr 13 19:59 
 Mobile phone locations - Zero
>> >>I will returning a call from "The Excutive Ofiice" in the morning.
>> >>I expect some excuse and techno garbage.
>>
>> Wrong on both the above.
>> Just got a call from their office.
>>
>> "The engineers say the problem SHOULD be fixed by SEPTEMBER !!!!"
>>
>> What a way to run a company!!! Next move ???

Frankly H, its your own fault. I for one would have been an ex customer shortly after the first debacle, let alone hang around for another.
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New Tue 30 Apr 13 22:46 
 Mobile phone locations - henry k
>>Frankly H, its your own fault.
>> I for one would have been an ex customer shortly after the first debacle, let alone hang around for another.
>>
In normal circumstances I would have said farewell but
Two unusual factors are that we both have an historic contract that costs zilch per month and we just pay for calls and text.
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New Wed 1 May 13 07:44 
 Mobile phone locations - Zero

>> In normal circumstances I would have said farewell but
>> Two unusual factors are that we both have an historic contract that costs zilch per
>> month and we just pay for calls and text.

Well as most of the time you cant use them, whatever you are paying is outrageous.
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New Wed 1 May 13 08:41 
 Mobile phone locations - AnotherJohnH
>> we both have an historic contract that costs zilch per month...

perhaps that explains the tardy repairs: they want you to leave as they are making no money.
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New Wed 1 May 13 10:49 
 Mobile phone locations - henry k
>>Well as most of the time you cant use them, whatever you are paying is outrageous.
>>
They work OK away from home or at the bottom of the garden :-)
We do still have a landline that has IIRC had just two faults in 30+ years and both were external faults and fixed quite quickly :-)
>>
>>>> we both have an historic contract that costs zilch per month...

>>perhaps that explains the tardy repairs: they want you to leave as they are making no money.
Tell that to my neigbour who has a business to run :-(
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