Non-motoring > Baroness Thatcher - Volume 2   [Read only]	Miscellaneous
Thread Author: VxFan	Replies: 118

New Wed 10 Apr 13 12:40   Baroness Thatcher - Volume 2 - VxFan

***** This thread is now closed, please CLICK HERE to go to Volume 3 ***** Ongoing debate about Maggie's recent death. Last edited by: VxFan on Thu 11 Apr 13 at 21:22

New Wed 10 Apr 13 10:15    Baroness Thatcher has died following a stroke, - BobbyG

What exactly is the pointy of recalling parliament to spend a day letting MPs say she was a jolly good fellow? Really, what is the point, and this is nothing to do with Maggie, but what can this achieve that cannot be achieved throgh modern social media? We have already heard all the leaders opinions and heard many more so why bother? Oh, and I also see mention that each MP can claim up to £3750 in expenses if they have had to interrupt a holiday. Well that's not going to be abused is it?       1

New Wed 10 Apr 13 10:47    Baroness Thatcher has died following a stroke, - Bromptonaut

>> What exactly is the pointy of recalling parliament to spend a day letting MPs say >> she was a jolly good fellow? I agree. Recall should be about serious issues. Examples in my lifetime were Soviet intervention in Czekoslovakia, internmnet in Ulster, the invasion of the Falklands or disorder on the streets. Parliament will be back on Monday. With proroguation and the Queen's Speech coming up the business managers will have their work cut out but surely a couple of hours for debate on the subject could have been found.       2

New Wed 10 Apr 13 11:59    Baroness Thatcher has died following a stroke, - Westpig

>> What exactly is the pointy of recalling parliament How about respect. For someone who achieved so much and was such a big deal for this country?       1

New Wed 10 Apr 13 12:04    Baroness Thatcher has died following a stroke, - BobbyG

But what does that mean - respect? They could do this on Monday can they not? What does it achieve? We have heard what everyone's opinions are so why pull everyone in to listen to it all again? I really can't see the point of it - as mentioned before it if was due to a national crisis that needed debated or decisions made then fair enough, but just for a load of politicans to take it in turns saying what a nice person she was whilst the rest just give it yays. Just don't get it. And I am not saying this cause of Maggie, I just can't see the point in this day and age of social media, web, 24 hr news etc that it is required.

New Wed 10 Apr 13 12:20    Baroness Thatcher has died following a stroke, - DP

There's been a lot of hate circulating on the interweb, and particularly on Facebook, most of which has been little short of contemptible. There was one tongue-in-cheek comment however which I couldn't help but find amusing, mostly because it's quite difficult to see the lady herself taking offence at it. To paraphrase, it suggested that, given the funeral was going to be paid for out of the public purse, it should be put out to competitive tender, and the lowest bidder selected for the job. Which, when you think about it is very much in line with her approach to public spending.

New Wed 10 Apr 13 13:03    Baroness Thatcher has died following a stroke, - Cliff Pope

>> But what does that mean - respect? >> It doesn't matter what it means. The public expects politicians to show it, and having a debate and a public funeral gives them that opportunity. The public doesn't know what it means either, except that they will be quick to condemn anyone who doesn't show it.

New Wed 10 Apr 13 13:14    Baroness Thatcher has died following a stroke, - Armel Coussine

My comic jeers today that Thailand and Taiwan have illustrated reports of Mrs Thatcher's death with photos of Meryl Streep and the Queen respectively. It hasn't noticed yet though that among the hundreds of photos it published yesterday was one of Buckingham Palace, captioned as Westminster Abbey.

New Wed 10 Apr 13 13:14    Baroness Thatcher has died following a stroke, - SteelSpark

>> It doesn't matter what it means. The public expects politicians to show it, and >> having a debate and a public funeral gives them that opportunity. For many of the MPs, in will be about respect. But for many more, it will just be being part of the theatre and history of parliament. It will be the same for may lining the funeral route. Many will be there to genuinely pay respect, but many others will just be there to say that they were there. Nothing wrong in it, just the way it is.

New Wed 10 Apr 13 14:07    Baroness Thatcher has died following a stroke, - Cliff Pope

>> >> Nothing wrong in it, just the way it is. >> Nothing wrong with it at all, but what is respect?

New Wed 10 Apr 13 13:31    Baroness Thatcher has died following a stroke, - WillDeBeest

At home today - overdue spot of Easter holiday leave. Heard a yelp from downstairs, which turned out to be from Mrs Beest, who had stumbled on the Mail's 'news' of the BBC's coverage of the 'great lady'. Apparently, There was also criticism that TV anchors failed to show sufficient respect. Huw Edwards, who was presenting a programme on Lady Thatcher on both the BBC News Channel and BBC One, was among those who did not wear a black tie. The scowly button is this way ..........................................˥ ..........................................V whoever you are. And for those who think our news presenters should instruct the nation to share the views of the governing party, North Korea is somewhere over there ------------------------------------------------------------------>

New Wed 10 Apr 13 15:19    Baroness Thatcher has died following a stroke, - Roger.

>> And for those who think our news presenters should instruct the nation to share the >> views of the governing party, North Korea is somewhere over there So it's OK if our news presenters instruct the nation to share the views of the chattering left?

New Wed 10 Apr 13 15:27    Baroness Thatcher has died following a stroke, - WillDeBeest

Who's instructing anyone, Roger? By not wearing a black tie? The BBC's job is to report the news - the facts. An 87-year-old woman died. When she was younger, she did some newsworthy things, some good, some bad. Views differ on the balance of good and bad, so let's hear from people who were on either side in that period. If some of those people do not offer the 'She did a good job and she was all right really' platitudes usually spoken of the recently dead, that's editorial balance. Remember Thatcher was a head of government, never a head of state like, say, Reagan. She had the support of about 45 percent of the electorate for several years in the 1980s. That does not make her a figure behind whom the nation can or should unite. Views will differ and it's the BBC's job to report that. From what I've heard, it has. Last edited by: WillDeBeest on Wed 10 Apr 13 at 15:27       2

New Wed 10 Apr 13 14:13    Baroness Thatcher has died following a stroke, - Westpig

>> But what does that mean - respect? Making an effort? Doing something above and beyond the norm? Putting yourself out? >> They could do this on Monday can they not? What does it achieve? We have >> heard what everyone's opinions are so why pull everyone in to listen to it all >> again? So you are an MP. You wish, through your workplace, our government seat, to show some respect to a previous leader and internationally renowned stateswoman. Do you: A, Recall Parliament, which doesn't happen very often and do your respect showing within that framework...or... B, Turn up for work as usual and fit it in sometime then. Which one of those shows more meaning?       1

New Wed 10 Apr 13 14:21    Baroness Thatcher has died following a stroke, - BobbyG

Do you: A, Recall Parliament, which doesn't happen very often and do your respect showing within that framework... and able to claim up to an extra £3750 for doing so or... B, Turn up for work as usual and fit it in sometime then. Which one of those shows more contempt for the British public in a period of austerity? Last edited by: BobbyG on Wed 10 Apr 13 at 14:22       1

New Wed 10 Apr 13 15:08    Baroness Thatcher has died following a stroke, - Zero

>> >> What exactly is the pointy of recalling parliament >> >> How about respect. For someone who achieved so much and was such a big deal >> for this country? Much as I am down in favour for what she did, and much as I think the people celebrating her death are uneducated filth who have too many chips on their shoulders and think the world owes them a living, this is all a step or three too far. There is no need to recall parliament, run a state funeral, or put a statue of her on the vacant forth plinth in the square. She is, after all, just a prime minister. The first female one I grant you, but just a prime minister.

New Wed 10 Apr 13 13:23   Baroness Thatcher - A Reply to MM - Bromptonaut

From previous volume. I'm getting tired of this. And I'm not going to play the game on your terms of challenging facts (or opinions - you mention both) when the issue is tone, presentation and selectivity. My original point was, and remains, that the pieces in the Mail are hagiographies with no attempt to discuss her record from any perspective but support. Heffers opinions are just that, assertions based on his right wing libertarian outlook. His text is peppered with buzzwords like 'militant' 'extreme' and 'Marxist'. Many union leaders, including Jack Jones but probably not Hugh Scanlan were moderates. Were all Leyland's cars ugly rust buckets? Didn't the management have as much to answer for as the unions? The Times was closed down by management; in effect a lockout. The whole of Amanda Freeman's piece is constructed on a false premise. Thatcher was not in any sense a champion of women’s lib still less feminism. She had few if any women in her cabinet (I think one in 11 years). She was typical of those who think everyone should be able to haul themselves up as she had. Of course the support of a wealthy husband, the ability to afford domestic help were of no relevance whatsoever. I've already challenged the assertion that the 'Milk Snatcher' campaign was the most vitriolic ever aimed at a woman politician. The item on terrorism is interesting. Geoffrey Howe observed in a piece published this week that her Nationalism was British and perhaps English. Any notion that Scots or Irish might have nationalism of their own was a notion she regarded as disloyal. On the one hand her apparent notion of no compromise with the Nationalist/Catholic cause would have left the issue to fester and get worse. On the other she did actually sign the Anglo-Irish Agreement which upset the Unionists no end. Was that as far as she would go or a step along the way to the eventual Mitchell agreement signed 15yrs ago today after first Major and then Blair seized the real issue?

New Wed 10 Apr 13 13:49   Baroness Thatcher - A Reply to MM - Westpig

>> Thatcher was not in any sense a champion of women’s lib still less feminism. Of course she was....only she came from the angle of 'there's no reason why a woman shouldn't/couldn't do something, so i'll prove it'...and she did, by some considerable margin. ....rather than 'let's put one in there because there aren't many there already'. When she was in charge as PM, along with HM as head of State, I was glad two very competent people were in charge of our country. Their sex mattered not a jot...and it really shouldn't matter to anyone else either. If your version of a feminist is the bra burning type, who wants quotas to automatically fill posts, then I think you'll find a lot of people don't like that and prefer Maggie's version..'just get on with it and prove how good you are'.

New Wed 10 Apr 13 14:10   Baroness Thatcher - A Reply to MM - Bromptonaut

>> If your version of a feminist is the bra burning type, who wants quotas to >> automatically fill posts, then I think you'll find a lot of people don't like that >> and prefer Maggie's version..'just get on with it and prove how good you are'. That's not my version of feminism at all. However good you are just getting on with it ain't going to work properly without locating, challenging and removing institutional hurdles prejudice. That's what my version of feminism includes. My point is that MM, having suceeded herself, didn't much like that prospect.

New Wed 10 Apr 13 15:29   Baroness Thatcher - A Reply to MM - Westpig

>> My point is that MM, having suceeded herself, didn't much like that prospect. >> I presume you mean MT. See my take on it, is she thought everyone, inc women, should stand or fall on their own merit.

New Wed 10 Apr 13 15:32   Baroness Thatcher - A Reply to MM - Westpig

>> However good you are just getting on with it ain't going to work properly without >> locating, challenging and removing institutional hurdles prejudice. That's what my version >> of feminism includes. She didn't do too badly with changing the City, did she? Only she didn't just do it for women, she did it for all, so that anyone could work there, not just someone in the Old Boy network. That would be my idea of feminism...make it easier for all, inc women, not just exclusively making it easier for women.

New Wed 10 Apr 13 15:42   Baroness Thatcher - A Reply to MM - Bromptonaut

>> That would be my idea of feminism...make it easier for all, inc women, not just >> exclusively making it easier for women. I suppose what it's really about is ensuring that the course to the top is not harder for or insurmountable by women because of entrenched attitudes or prejudice. Not just for the women denied but for all of us. Talent locked out is loss to society. And the same applies to ethnicity, GLBT and the disabled too. I cannot believe you never saw direct still less indirectdiscrimination in the Met becuase I've seen enough of it in the Civil Service. Less and more nuanced now than at the start of my career but still there.

New Wed 10 Apr 13 20:07   Baroness Thatcher - A Reply to MM - Westpig

>> I suppose what it's really about is ensuring that the course to the top is >> not harder for or insurmountable by women because of entrenched attitudes or prejudice. >> >> Not just for the women denied but for all of us. Talent locked out is >> loss to society. And the same applies to ethnicity, GLBT and the disabled too. Yes...easier for anyone with ability to get to the top..but certainly not to overly endorse people who fit certain criteria (e.g. gender, ethnicity, sexual orientation) as this would skew the results and the truly able wouldn't necessarily be at the top....just those that fit the criteria. >> I cannot believe you never saw direct still less indirectdiscrimination in the Met becuase I've >> seen enough of it in the Civil Service. When I first joined, there was banter etc that nowadays would be stamped upon...but the truthful answer is the latter years (15 at least) had the Met truly paralysed by political correctness. It is hard to really convey how bad it became (and still is)...those outside of the organisation have absolutely no idea how non discriminatory it is...to the extent it has gone the other way, noticeably. Last edited by: Westpig on Wed 10 Apr 13 at 20:08       1

New Thu 11 Apr 13 09:26   Baroness Thatcher - A Reply to MM - Mapmaker

>>I cannot believe you never saw direct still less indirectdiscrimination in the Met becuase I've >>seen enough of it in the Civil Service. You wouldn't get away with it in the private sector, in my experience. I have never seen direct - nor indirect - sexual discrimination in my workplace. Nor have I ever heard of it; with one exception. And that exception was an absolute ball-breaking woman, who had reached the top of the tree and was an absolute bitch. No man would have got away with treating his staff like she treated hers. A coup relieved her of her head-of-very-large-department role, to the relief of all; following which she began the process of taking her fellow partners to an employment tribunal in which she claimed sexual discrimination. Pah! I have no doubt she took much cash away with that little play.

New Wed 10 Apr 13 13:49   Baroness Thatcher - A Reply to MM - SteelSpark

>> From previous volume. >> >> I'm getting tired of this. Not too tired to carry it over to this new thread, and then write another few hundred words on it! :) Last edited by: SteelSpark on Wed 10 Apr 13 at 13:50       2

New Wed 10 Apr 13 14:02   Baroness Thatcher - A Reply to MM - Mapmaker

>>The whole of Amanda Freeman's piece is constructed on a false premise. Thatcher was not >>in any sense a champion of women’s lib still less feminism. I've just reread Freeman's piece. I see no reference to Lady T as a champion of women's lib, or feminism. Very many women I know have no desire to be feminist or women's libish at all. They just expect to be - and are - treated exactly the same as the men; which is the thrust of Freeman's piece. But of course I cannot stop you from reading this into the article. >>She had few if any women in her >>cabinet (I think one in 11 years). Quite right too. She didn't feel the need to appoint people because of their sex, irrespective of ability. >>She was typical of those who think everyone should be >>able to haul themselves up as she had. Of course the support of a wealthy husband, the >>ability to afford domestic help were of no relevance whatsoever. Ah, envy. Such a beautiful thing, Brompton. And why was the Times shut for a year? Because the workers wanted to stick to 19th century technology. Unions are great; we need more of them. >> Were all Leyland's cars ugly rust buckets? Didn't the management have as much to >> answer for as the unions? Management certainly had something to answer for; not standing up to the unions and allowing progress. Even to this day there are companies that struggle with unions and working to rule. A nation cannot advance under such circumstances. Last edited by: Mapmaker on Wed 10 Apr 13 at 14:03       2

New Wed 10 Apr 13 14:15   Baroness Thatcher - A Reply to MM - Bromptonaut

>> Ah, envy. Such a beautiful thing, Brompton. Why envy? That accusation is just the easy response of several on here to any attempt to challenge privilege or inequality.

New Wed 10 Apr 13 22:09   Baroness Thatcher - A Reply to MM - Kevin

>Why envy? >That accusation is just the easy response of several on here to any attempt to challenge privilege or inequality. And this statement wasn't an attempt to denigrate her achievement of becoming the UK's first female PM? "She was typical of those who think everyone should be able to haul themselves up as she had. Of course the support of a wealthy husband, the ability to afford domestic help were of no relevance whatsoever." Are you implying that she only achieved high office because she wasn't chained to the ironing board? Looks like those gender and diversity courses weren't worth the money we paid for them.

New Wed 10 Apr 13 22:25   Baroness Thatcher - A Reply to MM - Roger.

>> Are you implying that she only achieved high office because she wasn't chained to the >> ironing board? She had a career before politics, unlike too many of today's crop!

New Wed 10 Apr 13 22:44   Baroness Thatcher - A Reply to MM - Bromptonaut

>> Are you implying that she only achieved high office because she wasn't chained to the >> ironing board? In a sense yes. If one can afford childcare and other domestic help without the sacrifice that involves for people on ordinary wages then making the time to work on one's selection for a winnable seat is do-able. I'm not saying MT was not deserving of selection, just that her husband's money made it possible.

New Wed 10 Apr 13 23:38   Baroness Thatcher - A Reply to MM - Kevin

>In a sense yes. >If one can afford childcare and other domestic help without the sacrifice that involves for >people on ordinary wages then making the time to work on one's selection for a winnable seat >is do-able. So, is it just Conservative female MPs who wouldn't be there unless they had a "wealthy husband" or all female MPs? >I'm not saying MT was not deserving of selection, just that her husband's money made it possible. Well, bit by bit we're getting there but it's hard work.

New Wed 10 Apr 13 15:31   Baroness Thatcher - A Reply to MM - Bromptonaut

>> I've just reread Freeman's piece. I see no reference to Lady T as a champion of >>women's lib, or feminism The sub head at the start of Freeman's piece: 'Greatest women's libber of them all' What more do you need?

New Wed 10 Apr 13 15:34   Baroness Thatcher - A Reply to MM - Westpig

>> 'Greatest women's libber of them all' Was she not? She couldn't have achieved a great deal more.

New Wed 10 Apr 13 22:49   Baroness Thatcher - A Reply to MM - Bromptonaut

>> >> 'Greatest women's libber of them all' >> >> Was she not? She couldn't have achieved a great deal more. Oh, she achieved it OK, but see my reply to Kevin. Women's lib is about opportunity for all, not just those whose husbands' (or even their own access to barrister type earnings) can sub them.

New Thu 11 Apr 13 19:22   Baroness Thatcher - A Reply to MM - Westpig

>> Oh, she achieved it OK, but see my reply to Kevin. Women's lib is about >> opportunity for all, not just those whose husbands' (or even their own access to barrister >> type earnings) can sub them. That is a hopeless pipe dream. Only the best get to the top. She did because she was. Did I get to the top of my career?...No. Why not?....I didn't have the drive, ambition, nous, wherewithal, call it what you like...I could moan about things and a couple of points I might have a point, but the bottom line is, if I was good enough, I would have overcome them.

New Thu 11 Apr 13 20:51   Baroness Thatcher - A Reply to MM - Roger.

>> Did I get to the top of my career?...No. Why not?....I didn't have the drive, >> ambition, nous, wherewithal, call it what you like...I could moan about things and a couple >> of points I might have a point, but the bottom line is, if I was >> good enough, I would have overcome them. You probably were not ruthless enough to trample over your colleagues in the rush. Wise is the person (M/F!) who knows the limit of their abilities. Too many don't and finish up proving the Peter Principle.

New Thu 11 Apr 13 21:01   Baroness Thatcher - A Reply to MM - No FM2R

Oh you do talk stuff and nonsense. >>You probably were not ruthless enough to trample over your colleagues in the rush. If I didn't reach the top, I got pretty close. And I've never trampled on a colleague in my life. However, on a business level I am about as ruthless as it gets, I just don't see why that would impact personal relationships. Making decisions which are hard upon your colleagues, hard upon your subordinates or just generally hard are not necessarily trampling. >>Wise is the person (M/F!) who knows the limit of their abilities. Rubbish. That's almost always an excuse for failure, lack of will or lack of effort.

New Thu 11 Apr 13 21:02   Baroness Thatcher - A Reply to MM - Roger.

>> Oh you do talk stuff and nonsense. >> >> >>You probably were not ruthless enough to trample over your colleagues in the rush. >> >> If I didn't reach the top, I got pretty close. And I've never trampled on >> a colleague in my life. However, on a business level I am about as ruthless >> as it gets, I just don't see why that would impact personal relationships. >> >> Making decisions which are hard upon your colleagues, hard upon your subordinates or just generally >> hard are not necessarily trampling. >> >> >>Wise is the person (M/F!) who knows the limit of their abilities. >> >> Rubbish. That's almost always an excuse for failure, lack of will or lack of effort. My reply was not addressed to you.

New Thu 11 Apr 13 21:12   Baroness Thatcher - A Reply to MM - No FM2R

Well nonetheless I read it. Nyaah nyaah. What you gonna do?

New Thu 11 Apr 13 21:14   Baroness Thatcher - A Reply to MM - Robin O'Reliant

>> Rubbish. That's almost always an excuse for failure, lack of will or lack of effort. >> I'll cheerfully admit to all three of those. But I am good looking with all my own hair and a charming personality.

New Thu 11 Apr 13 09:21   Baroness Thatcher - A Reply to MM - Mapmaker

>> >> I've just reread Freeman's piece. I see no reference to Lady T as a >> champion of >>women's lib, or feminism >> >> The sub head at the start of Freeman's piece: >> >> 'Greatest women's libber of them all' >> >> What more do you need? >> I'll give you £5 if Freeman wrote that. Written by some pig-ignorant headline writer; probably to Freeman's considerable annoyance. As well you know. Now, try answering the question. Have another go, and read the article and see if you can spot a sentence - or phrase - that refers to Lady T as a champion of women's lib, or feminism.

New Thu 11 Apr 13 10:07   Baroness Thatcher - A Reply to MM - Bromptonaut

>> Now, try answering the question. Have another go, and read the article and see if >> you can spot a sentence - or phrase - that refers to Lady T as >> a champion of women's lib, or feminism. You're moving the goalposts again MM. The whole tone of the article is of her as a pioneer for women. She wasn't. And incidentally there's a factual innacuracy at the start with e reference to no female life peers at time of her election/selection. There were no life peers of any sort in at that time.

New Thu 11 Apr 13 13:36   Baroness Thatcher - A Reply to MM - Mapmaker

>>The whole tone of the article is of her as a pioneer for women. She wasn't. Was she a man then? Of course she was a pioneer for women. She just wasn't a feminist; which is why everybody thought she was amazing. I have moved no goal posts; you just keep changing what she was or wasn't.

New Wed 10 Apr 13 15:34   Baroness Thatcher - A Reply to MM - Pat

>>Very many women I know have no desire to be feminist or women's libish at all. They just expect to be - and are - treated exactly the same as the men<< Hallelujah:) It's taken four years but you have climbed up that pedestal in my eyes MM, you do actually live in the real world and I'm afraid I may even start to like you as well as respect you:) Well said, it's a concept so many people can't seem to understand though. Pat

New Wed 10 Apr 13 15:57   Baroness Thatcher - A Reply to MM - Armel Coussine

>> it's a concept so many people can't seem to understand though. Non-feminist feminism you mean Pat? You may remember that I have accused you of that, and I have been waiting for you to turn up in this thread. :o}

New Wed 10 Apr 13 16:20   Baroness Thatcher - A Reply to MM - Armel Coussine

And I learn from another thread that you were one of Mrs T's union-busting hell drivers. Chapeau! I would really have disapproved at the time. But I am older and wiser now.

New Wed 10 Apr 13 16:20   Baroness Thatcher - A Reply to MM - Pat

I'm not a feminist at all AC, I just want to do anything I love doing and be accepted as a person ( not a gender). I'm loving this thread but I don't really know what my feelings are on Maggie. She did what she did very, very well. Was she right to do it? I'm not sure. I have met a lot of miners and dockers, who in a reflective moment will tell me they didn't realise how well off they were and now know they shouldn't have been so militant. I lived in a council house when we got the right to buy but moved to the Fen to be a lorry driver instead...when I go back 'home' the quiet cul-de-sac of 12 council houses has just two which are not privately owned and look unkempt and divided from the small community spirit as I knew it. I am appalled at the comments and celebrations at her death and what sort of worl we live in but I had a very close friend of my sons, who I had known from birth in the Falklands. I remember Maggie said we should all rejoice at the sinking of the Belgrano....is this Karma? Pat

New Wed 10 Apr 13 16:23   Baroness Thatcher - A Reply to MM - WillDeBeest

I think her 'Rejoice!' ad-lib (or was it?) was for the fall of Stanley, Pat, not for the Belgrano. She probably knew that it had happened just before the artillery had to resort to writing BANG on bits of paper and firing them at the Argentinians.

New Wed 10 Apr 13 16:26   Baroness Thatcher - A Reply to MM - Pat

:) Probably so WdeB, I was too busy trying to escape the chains of being a Rep, wife and mother and following MY dream before it was too late at the time! Pat

New Wed 10 Apr 13 16:43   Baroness Thatcher - A Reply to MM - Armel Coussine

>> 'Rejoice!' ad-lib (or was it?) was for the fall of Stanley, Pat, not for the Belgrano Yes. But the amount of mud dishonestly showered on Mrs T by ideologues has stuck so well that ignorant children are still seeing her as a mad thuggish warmonger. The fact is that women are generally somewhat less callous than men, and there's no reason to suppose that she was any different. No sane PM likes to go to war. It's never clean, it's never easy, and no one comes out of it smelling of roses. And they know that when British troops are killed or injured many will blame them personally. Yet if they can't do it when it seems necessary, they aren't fit for the job. As most of us wouldn't be. The front-page Matt and the middle page Adams cartoons in today's comic are both funny.       1

New Wed 10 Apr 13 17:11   Baroness Thatcher - A Reply to MM - Pat

I always listen/watch BBC News on BBC1 when I get up around 3am and this morning they certainly attributed that remark to the Belgrano...but could have been wrong. I like Hard Talk and was interested in Ian Paisley this morning, he's lost weight! Pat

New Wed 10 Apr 13 18:16   Baroness Thatcher - A Reply to MM - Robin O'Reliant

Thatcher was often quoted wrongly or wildely out of context. "There is no such thing as society" is a classic example.       1

New Wed 10 Apr 13 17:30   Baroness Thatcher - A Reply to MM - Armel Coussine

It wasn't the fall of Stanley but earlier, the fall of South Georgia. I don't think she felt too good about the Belgrano. No one did. It may have been a hopeless old cruiser manned by teenage matelots, but it was armed, capable of inflicting damage and in the area. The Argentinians, remember, were chucking ordnance at British ships and actually did sink and damage several, causing quite a few casualties. To some though the whole sorry business was entirely Mrs Thatcher's fault. It was quite widely believed that she had deliberately provoked the Falklands war to win the next election on a surge of patriotism. What poppycock.       1

New Wed 10 Apr 13 17:42   Baroness Thatcher - A Reply to MM - Armel Coussine

And incidentally, Argentinians have good reason to be grateful to Mrs T, although it is understandably difficult for most of them to admit it (a few did I seem to remember): their defeat in the war they started sent the military back to their barracks where they belonged and restored whatever passes for democracy in those parts. Now they have the crass Mrs Kirchner though.       1

New Wed 10 Apr 13 18:15   Baroness Thatcher - A Reply to MM - WillDeBeest

It wasn't the fall of Stanley but earlier, the fall of South Georgia. So it was.       1

New Wed 10 Apr 13 19:06   Baroness Thatcher - A Reply to MM - Duncan

>> It wasn't the fall of Stanley but earlier, the fall of South Georgia. >> >> So it was. >> Pedant's Corner. The island of South Georgia 'fell' on March 19th 1982. The island was recaptured on April 25th 1982, to which item of news Margaret Thatcher said 'rejoice'. To use the word 'fall' when the island was retaken is inappropriate.       1

New Wed 10 Apr 13 19:11   Baroness Thatcher - A Reply to MM - sooty123

Can you explain the difference? To me they mean the same thing.

New Wed 10 Apr 13 19:13   Baroness Thatcher - A Reply to MM - Armel Coussine

Not at all Duncan. First it fell one way, then it fell the other. A bit unstable, these islands. Like old geezers tottering home from the drinker.

New Wed 10 Apr 13 19:21   Baroness Thatcher - A Reply to MM - Duncan

But from the British perspective, they 'fell' to the Argentines and were recaptured by us. I stand my ground.       1

New Wed 10 Apr 13 19:30   Baroness Thatcher - A Reply to MM - CGNorwich

"they 'fell' to the Argentines and were recaptured by us." Like two down and outs fighting over a dog-end.

New Wed 10 Apr 13 19:47   Baroness Thatcher - A Reply to MM - sooty123

>> over a dog-end. I can remember similar thoughts from those first posted to norfolk ;) Last edited by: VxFan on Wed 10 Apr 13 at 21:13

New Wed 10 Apr 13 20:13   Baroness Thatcher - A Reply to MM - Armel Coussine

>> down and outs fighting over a dog-end. Bald men fighting over a comb, they said at the time. British masochism, masquerading as modesty. Oh dear, how embarrassing. All that blood and clamour, really! Almost as bad as the monarchy. Sneer. One finger to one nostril, jet of snot out of the other all over the modesty-shop window.

New Thu 11 Apr 13 01:28   Baroness Thatcher - A Reply to MM - Armel Coussine

>> Bald men fighting over a comb, they said at the time. British masochism, masquerading as modesty. Oh dear. The comment was really made by the Argentine poet Jorge Luis Borges. From where he stood it was a courageous and apposite remark. But it was much quoted here, with masochistic approval.

New Thu 11 Apr 13 09:36   Baroness Thatcher - A Reply to MM - Mapmaker

>> It's taken four years but you have climbed up that pedestal in my eyes MM, >> you do actually live in the real world and I'm afraid I may even start >> to like you as well as respect you:) Fighting is too much like hard work, in my view. Easiest if we all help each other.

New Wed 10 Apr 13 17:42   Baroness Thatcher - A Reply to MM - No FM2R

>>Were all Leyland's cars ugly rust buckets? Pretty much. One or two weren't ugly, but I think they were all rust buckets. >> Didn't the management have as much to answer for as the unions? Absolutely. The management were shockingly awful. That doesn't make the unions innocent though. The unions were as ridiculous as the management. >> Many union leaders, including Jack Jones ..... were moderates He was a dedicated and forceful man of significant integrity and substantial beliefs. But not a moderate. Not at all. Not even a little bit.       1

New Wed 10 Apr 13 19:40   Baroness Thatcher - A Reply to MM - Lygonos

I quite liked my old Maxi 1750 automatic. Considering the original version was built in 1969 -it had potential to become a world class car(5-door hatch, FWD, 5 speed manual albeit crappy cable linkage originally, nice roomy interior). 1970s sorted that out though - my 1980 variant was barely distinguishable from the earliest ones.

New Wed 10 Apr 13 19:56   Baroness Thatcher - A Reply to MM - zookeeper

the montego was a far superior car to the maxi

New Wed 10 Apr 13 20:48   Baroness Thatcher - A Reply to MM - Armel Coussine

Poets are better at this sort of thing. A late friend, Caribbean in origin and Brixton-dwelling, had a poem that began: I don't like Mrs Thatcher No I don't like that girl I don't like Mrs Thatcher She's the worst girl in the worl'... There's affection there. He was a geezer who liked bad girls (as we all do up to a point) and the term 'girl' is itself affectionate. Can't remember most of it but it ended even more affectionately with the line 'Cos I'm a masochist'. He wasn't of course... heh heh.

New Wed 10 Apr 13 20:50   Baroness Thatcher - A Reply to MM - Lygonos

Not back in 1970 it wasn't.

New Wed 10 Apr 13 21:19   Baroness Thatcher - A Reply to MM - No FM2R

I had a Maxi, I'd forgotten all about that. Manual though, not automatic. And it was that awful BL orange. I realise I've no idea what happened to it. I loved that car.

New Wed 10 Apr 13 21:20   Baroness Thatcher - A Reply to MM - No FM2R

And I had a talking Montego, the EFI, with a digital dash. What a nasty, nasty, nasty car that was.

New Wed 10 Apr 13 21:25   Baroness Thatcher - A Reply to MM - Robin O'Reliant

>> And I had a talking Montego, the EFI, with a digital dash. What a nasty, >> nasty, nasty car that was. >> You don't know what nasty is unless you owned a Marina. I had two of the heaps.

New Thu 11 Apr 13 18:02   Baroness Thatcher - A Reply to MM - corax

>> You don't know what nasty is unless you owned a Marina. I had two of >> the heaps. And you didn't learn after the first one?

New Wed 10 Apr 13 21:13   Baroness Thatcher - The Commons Debate. - Bromptonaut

The Member for Hampsted and Kilburn in full flow: www.youtube.com/watch?v=XDtClJYJBj8 Roger may be 'confused'.

New Wed 10 Apr 13 21:37   Baroness Thatcher - Volume 2 - Manatee

I'm saddened to see people celebrating her death. Older people who should know better even if they didn't vote Conservative themselves, and younger ones who can know very little. I wasn't sympathetic to her policies then, or now. But neither did the unions throughout the 1970s and early 80s act with much sense or responsibility - quite the opposite, the ones with the power acted as selfishly and irresponsibly as the most extreme caricature of Thatcherite capitalism, and sod the other workers and innocents hurt by the strikes. The closed shop, and strikes without proper ballots, were together as dishonest and unprincipled as any city slicker. It still seems wrong to me that the principal utilities should be privately owned - their infrastructures are de facto monopolies and can't operate on market principles alone; bureaucratic regulation can be just as bad as bureaucratic management. I also believe, as I did then, that the seller of his labour needs power or intervention to protect him from capital that left to its own devices strives to impoverish him and accumulate surpluses to itself. But to blame Thatcher is idiotic. By all means blame a leader for failure to act, for dereliction of duty, venality, dishonesty, deceit (WMD in 45 minutes?). But not for conviction. Not to mention the minor point that the Conservatives, led by Thatcher, were elected. There was a cabinet; there was a Parliament. Thatcher won an election, unlike Gordon Brown, and then another two in 1983 and 1987 with substantial majorities. If you think that was owing purely to the Falklands effect, then again blame the electorate for being stupid enough to cast its votes on that basis, or because they thought that and having a few shares from Sid made them middle class. If you hate Thatcher, you may as well also blame Labour and the unions for letting her get elected. And it's not surprising that she was - it's hard to conceive now of the power held and abused by union leaders and the havoc wrought by one strike after another as successive industry sectors sought 'parity'. The unions of the 1970s were an embarrassment to any kind of socialist except the revolutionary kind. And I say all that as a liberal socialist who has never voted Conservative. I agree with Billy Bragg that it is a tragedy in a wealthy country that an average wage earner can't support a small family with the lowest aspirations, without state support. I just don't get the direct connection to Thatcher. The jubilation at her passing makes me want to puke far more than the glorification of her achievements. Last edited by: Manatee on Wed 10 Apr 13 at 21:41       11

New Wed 10 Apr 13 22:03   Baroness Thatcher - Volume 2 - Londoner

Terrific post, Manatee. I regret that I have only one thumb to give you.       2

New Wed 10 Apr 13 22:47   Baroness Thatcher - Volume 2 - No FM2R

Ditto. Excellent post Manatee.       2

New Wed 10 Apr 13 22:13   Baroness Thatcher - Volume 2 - Bromptonaut

>> Not to mention the minor point that the Conservatives, led by Thatcher, were elected. >> There was a cabinet; there was a Parliament. Thatcher won an election, unlike Gordon >> Brown, and then another two in 1983 and 1987 But that's how the system works. Nobody outside Finchley voted for Thatcher, they voted for her ciphers. As it happened a relative handful of seats changed hands so she got more ciphers than Callaghan/Foot/Kinnock. Major was PM from 90 to 92 on same basis as Brown - he was the chosen leader of the party with most ciphers in the Commons. So was Alec Douglas-Home after Macmillan. Even the need an engineered by-election in a safe seat didn't exclude him from the tenancy of 10 Downing St. Remind me, how was Churchill endorsed by popular vote as PM before 1951?

New Wed 10 Apr 13 22:43   Baroness Thatcher - Volume 2 - Manatee

>> But that's how the system works. Nobody outside Finchley voted for Thatcher, they voted for >> her ciphers. As it happened a relative handful of seats changed hands so she got >> more ciphers than Callaghan/Foot/Kinnock. >> >> Major was PM from 90 to 92 on same basis as Brown - he was >> the chosen leader of the party with most ciphers in the Commons. So was Alec >> Douglas-Home after Macmillan. Even the need an engineered by-election in a safe seat didn't exclude >> him from the tenancy of 10 Downing St. >> >> Remind me, how was Churchill endorsed by popular vote as PM before 1951? Ciphers? All they had to do was put a cross in a box, not crack the enigma code.. My point was not that Brown (or Major, Douglas Home or Churchill) shouldn't have been PM, but that Thatcher had as much explicit legitimacy as our system confers, as leader when the party was elected to power. Are you saying the voters didn't really want her? Yet they elected the party with her as leader three times by accident?       2

New Wed 10 Apr 13 23:02   Baroness Thatcher - Volume 2 - Bromptonaut

>> >> My point was not that Brown (or Major, Douglas Home or Churchill) shouldn't have been >> PM, but that Thatcher had as much explicit legitimacy as our system confers, as leader >> when the party was elected to power. >> >> Are you saying the voters didn't really want her? >> >> Yet they elected the party with her as leader three times by accident? No she had that legitimacy. My observation was that when leaders lose the confidence of their party, resign, fall ill or die their successor is no less legitimate for not having been the figurehead at an election. That's how our democracy works. If it devalues Brown or Callaghan then Churchly pre 1951/2 and Home were equally devalued.

New Wed 10 Apr 13 22:49   Baroness Thatcher - Volume 2 - No FM2R

Bromp, You know how I won't let go when I'm talking about prison and you wish I would? I think, Grasshopper, you have studied well and, at least on this subject, you may have reached my dizzy heights!       1

New Thu 11 Apr 13 03:41   Baroness Thatcher - Volume 2 - No FM2R

Now that's strange, Bromp had replied to this earlier, something like joking agreement, and the reply has gone. So what happened there then?       1

New Thu 11 Apr 13 10:33   Baroness Thatcher - Volume 2 - No FM2R

Is this going to be another of those peculiar disappearing ones where nobody knows anything ? Like the one of Zero's which got deleted? Bromp, you did post a reply? I'm not going nuts? Last edited by: No FM2R on Thu 11 Apr 13 at 10:34

New Thu 11 Apr 13 10:37   Baroness Thatcher - Volume 2 - Zero

I was told stuff does go missing. for no reason.

New Thu 11 Apr 13 10:46   Baroness Thatcher - Volume 2 - VxFan

>> Bromp, you did post a reply? I'm not going nuts? He did reply. I subsequently deleted it because of evading the swear filter by using %&$ type characters. As you can probably remember from when you were a moderator, it's easier and quicker to delete than it is to edit. Although on the whole the moderation of this site compared to the other one is more relaxed, I still like to keep up certain standards that we implemented on the other site however. Remember this? www.honestjohn.co.uk/forum/post/index.htm?t=33415 ps, that didn't apply though to Zero's post. To this day that remains a mystery where that one vanished to. Last edited by: VxFan on Thu 11 Apr 13 at 10:49

New Thu 11 Apr 13 12:32   Baroness Thatcher - Volume 2 - No FM2R

>>To this day that remains a mystery where that one vanished to. Of course it does.

New Thu 11 Apr 13 16:24   Baroness Thatcher - Volume 2 - Bromptonaut

>> >> Bromp, you did post a reply? I'm not going nuts? >> >> He did reply.I subsequently deleted it because of evading the swear filter by using >> %&$ type characters. > For heavens sake. I know there are rules but the word was one I'd use in front of my mother without either of us needing to blush.

New Thu 11 Apr 13 21:17   Baroness Thatcher - Volume 2 - VxFan

>> For heavens sake. I know there are rules but the word was one I'd use >> in front of my mother without either of us needing to blush. It's not just you or your mother to consider though is it. There are others who also read this forum who might be offended by your swearing.

New Thu 11 Apr 13 02:07   Baroness Thatcher - Volume 2 - Armel Coussine

I've given you a gong too Dugong, for balance and decency. But: the unholy collusion of dumb unions and idle, ignorant crap management that so degraded manufacturing industry here dated from the forties and the end of the war. It wasn't something that happened in the lefty seventies. It was just that by then everyone had got used to it and feared (or hoped) it would last for ever. I strongly agree with you about the privatisation of utilities and the need for some level of unionisation to protect workers from naked capital. But if workers are too impoverished they can't consume - buy products - and that makes capital protect them up to a point in a society like this one. And I certainly observed at the time that not all revolutionary leftists were thick enough to go along with Scargillite sod-the-lot-of-them trade unionism. No one has mentioned 'Victorian values'. That slogan was projected as meaning hard-working, honest, family-oriented behaviour aspiring to home and car ownership etc., but was widely alleged on the left to mean an attack on wages. It struck a dud note even at the time and was quickly abandoned. Is it really true that someone on an average wage can't support a small family with low aspirations without state help? Seems unlikely. The problem today is the number of people who can't even earn an average wage, or find a job at all. This can't be blamed on politicians really. It's something to do with technology and modern economies and is common to all western countries.

New Thu 11 Apr 13 08:12   Baroness Thatcher - Volume 2 - Lygonos

>>Is it really true that someone on an average wage can't support a small family with low aspirations without state help? Depends how you define 'low aspirations'. No car, small rental flat, no foreign holiday, recycling clothes then I guess it can be done. Hey hang on a minute: that's the income/lifestyle of the 70s I remember, that Billy Bragg appears to look back on as a time of plenty. Anyone with 2 kids with a single earner making £22-25k will get a good chunk extra from the state (Just under 2 grand Child Allowance and I would imagine at least the same again in tax credits of various sorts)

New Thu 11 Apr 13 08:27   Baroness Thatcher - Volume 2 - Zero

Low Aspirations? Isn't that a euphemism for the "State has a duty to keep me in comfort so why should I try and better myself?"       3

New Thu 11 Apr 13 08:33   Baroness Thatcher - Volume 2 - Roger.

Despite my admiration for the late Baroness Thatcher, I think that holding what is virtually a State Funeral, is not appropriate due to (a) cost to the public (the taxpayer's) purse and (b) no post war politician is worth a State Funeral!

New Thu 11 Apr 13 08:48   Baroness Thatcher - Volume 2 - Bromptonaut

>> Despite my admiration for the late Baroness Thatcher, I think that holding what is virtually >> a State Funeral, is not appropriate due to (a) cost to the public (the taxpayer's) >> purse and (b) no post war politician is worth a State Funeral! I am a liberal socialist but I think you're spot on there Roger ;-)

New Thu 11 Apr 13 09:53   Baroness Thatcher - Volume 2 - Manatee

>> Low Aspirations? >> >> Isn't that a euphemism for the "State has a duty to keep me in comfort >> so why should I try and better myself?" It could be but all I meant by "lowest aspirations" was a modest lifestyle. What I was driving at was that a choice that was widely available to our cohort is no longer realistic. My wife gave up work in 1980 to look after our children and they were brought up at home, not in child kennels. Despite a modest wage we owned (on a mortgage) a standard 3 bed semi and ran an old car. We did get child benefit of course. I don't think that is a choice open to many now and the main culprit is probably housing cost. I am baffled as to why Osborne thinks that subsidising house buyers will help. It's the prices that are the problem, driven to where they were by borrowed money. The benefit of higher household incomes from dual earners has been lost to that and I don't see that as an improvement in people's lives. Unfettered market economies create wealth. They don't of themselves distribute it or better the existence of ordinary people. Not to mention the sustainability problem. Or, as Kenneth Boulding allegedly put it, “Anyone who believes in indefinite growth in anything physical, on a physically finite planet, is either mad or an economist.” Last edited by: Manatee on Thu 11 Apr 13 at 09:54       1

New Thu 11 Apr 13 08:37   Baroness Thatcher - Volume 2 - Roger.

I am not a liberal socialist, but I reckon you are spot on, Manatee.

New Thu 11 Apr 13 09:49   Baroness Thatcher - Volume 2 - Pat

I agree but would go a bit further, I think every MP who was in the Commons yesterday should publicly declare that they won't be claiming the expense for being recalled. What an example that would set.... Pat

New Thu 11 Apr 13 10:16   Baroness Thatcher - Volume 2 - Roger.

Ha, ha, ha. Don't hold your breath, Pat!

New Thu 11 Apr 13 13:52   Baroness Thatcher - Volume 2 - Dutchie

You are battling on your own Brompt I respect you for it. I'm not clever enough going though all the political arguments what she did for Britain or not. I remember the time when she was in charge.I was lucky I had a good job but I didn't like what went on in the UK.       1

New Thu 11 Apr 13 13:58   Baroness Thatcher - Volume 2 - Armel Coussine

Very good piece by Peter Oborne on the funeral in today's comic.

New Thu 11 Apr 13 14:42   Baroness Thatcher - Volume 2 - Dutchie

State funeral next week I wonder how she will be mourned in Northern England and parts of Wales.Don't want to go on about it may she rest in piece.

New Thu 11 Apr 13 14:55   Baroness Thatcher - Volume 2 - No FM2R

The whole thing will be horrible. Firstly, a minutes silence at a football match? Much as I respect Margaret Thatcher, what on earth for? Not only is it inappropriate, it would never be respected. It'll just be an embarrassing public spectacle. In any case the whole minutes silence, clapping at 7 minutes for a No 7 player etc. etc. is all getting completely out of hand. Even the Hillsborough thing. Sad, horrible and awful. But will we still be having a minutes silence 100 years from now? 50? 10? Week after next? Secondly, the funeral procession. Again, it seems inappropriate, and you just know that people will use it as an opportunity to smash shop windows to prove that they are hard done by. She was Prime Minister, and an important and significant one. She was a human being. So, respect is important, and a respectful funeral also. But such a funeral? I find it all very uncomfortable and likely to be a disaster, and I shall have to keep explaining to a bunch of South Americans why British people behave like that. Which is equally embarrassing.       4

New Thu 11 Apr 13 14:58   Baroness Thatcher - Volume 2 - Zero

Yeah, its indefensible.

New Thu 11 Apr 13 16:16   Baroness Thatcher - Volume 2 - Robin O'Reliant

I hear arsenal are trying to persuade their fans to hold a minutes noise in tribute. Last edited by: VxFan on Thu 11 Apr 13 at 21:18

New Thu 11 Apr 13 16:29   Baroness Thatcher - Volume 2 - Armel Coussine

>> its indefensible. Why exaggerate? It can be defended and many will defend it. You and I may not be among them, but they are just as real as we are. I'd love to hear FMR explaining to South Americans 'why British people behave like this'. 'Well you see Señor, there's a fair amount of unemployment, political ignorance and confusion, and a bit of (cough) class resentment. Now they haven't got much of an empire to maintain by force, bribery and subterfuge they are feeling at a bit of a loss, so unfortunately their underlying tendencies to hysteria and mawkishness tend to get free rein. See what I mean? Cast your mind back to the late Princess of Wales's funeral, frightful display I'm sure you'll agree, what?' 'Qué?'

New Thu 11 Apr 13 16:37   Baroness Thatcher - Volume 2 - Dog

"That the passing of Margaret Thatcher elicited from members of this forum, some about her and others directed at each other... a mix of sides as it were. Reading over the list I find it hard to think of a word better to describe her legacy than divisive in the extreme, and I say this as someone who has no UK experience... positive or negative. Long term damage, appalling legacy, odious woman, sycophantic creep, disgusting, toxic image, invertebrate sycophantics, obnoxious woman, it's a socialist thing, deliberately cold, callous and cruel influence, Marxist leaning, free thinking people (insinuating the opinions of ours came from lack of thought), desperate, spiteful, deceitful man, arrogant, babble, brainless, meaningless drivel, your appalling standards, Adolf Hitler, Joseph Stalin, Marxist, Fascist, lackey, shame on you, unsubstantiated drivel, if you have the wit to look, that's disgusting, studiously ignored, being irrelevant, sycophants, cheap shots, purile drivel, Communist, chattering classes, crass & unwarranted criticism, smug, obnoxious, boorish, elitist, without empathy, compassion and wisdom, bully, bludgeon and trample, dripping disdain, old "talking down" ploy,, the fashion on this site by some, pot/kettle, Thatcher fanatic, many heartless and deliberate policies, what utter drivel..." Lifted from the expat-in-Spain forum (he's a Yankee) Thread is closed now!

New Thu 11 Apr 13 16:30   Baroness Thatcher - Volume 2 - Bromptonaut

Spot on Mark. You'd think the Chairman of Wigan's football club would be sufficiently locally grounded to know she does not meet with universal approbation in what was once industrial and coal mining territory. Thatcher had no understanding whatever of football. David Mellor was on the radio yesterday recounting the efforts he and Ken Clarke, as the only regular match attenders in the cabinet, went to in dissuading her from the football identity card scheme. Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Thu 11 Apr 13 at 16:31

New Thu 11 Apr 13 17:08   Baroness Thatcher - Volume 2 - Robin O'Reliant

>> Thatcher had no understanding whatever of football. David Mellor was on the radio yesterday recounting >> the efforts he and Ken Clarke, as the only regular match attenders in the cabinet, >> went to in dissuading her from the football identity card scheme. >> To be fair Brompt, I'd not class Mellor as having any understanding of football either. BTW, I don't go on CC any more, I should imagine the discussion over there has got rather heated?

New Thu 11 Apr 13 17:48   Baroness Thatcher - Volume 2 - Bromptonaut

>> BTW, I don't go on CC any more, I should imagine the discussion over there >> has got rather heated? I will miss SJ's bon mots. The Thatcher dies of a stroke thread now runs to 43 pages. Anythig useful wa said by end of first two first two. The lass from Swansea's comment was quite funny but the Andy from Sig etc v 'The Left' merrygoround loses my will to live.

New Thu 11 Apr 13 17:10   Baroness Thatcher - Volume 2 - BobbyG

Dutchie, am with you in that camp, don't have the knowledge and will to argue all her policies but I remember how her actions, policies and behaviour affected my families and the communities we lived in. It is very obvious from here that there are those in her camp and those that aren't and never the twain shall meet. I would guess that this is due to the different camps being in different communities and environments at the time. There is just something about her dying whilst living in a 5 star hotel, with a family wealth touching 3 figures of millions, whilst at the same time a new a raft of measures are being introduced against the poorest in our society, the countries highest earners are getting to save on their income tax bills. And the country is footing the bill for a grand funeral for her costing millions. Some will find that all OK, others like me , do not.

New Thu 11 Apr 13 17:22   Baroness Thatcher - Volume 2 - Zero

> >> highest earners are getting to save on their income tax bills. My income tax is being cut. I am not a high earner. Funnily enough, your income tax is being cut as well, but I can see how you dont want to make a fuss about it. Kinda spoils the argument a bit.

New Thu 11 Apr 13 17:17   Baroness Thatcher - Volume 2 - SteelSpark

Ding Dong the Witch is Dead! gets into the Top 5 tinyurl.com/cskqdyb Would be fascinating to see a demographic breakdown of the people buying it. Probably 2% ex-miners, and 98% teenagers/students, who probably don't know who she was, but think it's a great jape anyway. If you're 16, and have no idea who she was, can't quite remember who Tony Blair was, and are only doing it for the..ahem..."lulz", is it still disrespectful? Last edited by: SteelSpark on Thu 11 Apr 13 at 17:18

New Thu 11 Apr 13 17:19   Baroness Thatcher - Volume 2 - No FM2R

I would just love the owners of the song to declare that they were donating all revenue from the record sales to one of Margaret Thatcher's favourite charities.

New Thu 11 Apr 13 17:20   Baroness Thatcher - Volume 2 - BobbyG

Are the bankers a charity???????? Joke, joke ok!!!! :)

New Thu 11 Apr 13 18:05   Baroness Thatcher - Volume 2 - No FM2R

I get that it was a joke. But there seems a startling similarity between the arguments from those people who blame "Bankers" for the ills of the world, without really understanding what they mean by bankers, and those that blame Margaret Thatcher for the same thing, without really understanding the time and interactions. And on the other side those that blame Robbo and Scargill et al also seem to forget that they too were voted in. And when it is pointed out that MT was elected three times, rather than admit anything they fall back on the fact that it was only because of a faulty electoral system. Albeit that the same faulty election system had previously voted in Labour ministers. And apparently it is at its most faulty when it doesn't vote Liberal - or whatever they choose to call themselves these days. And yet we always forget those that really own the blame - the electorate, whether or not they actually voted. I guess its just not cool blaming yourself, and a bit dodgy blaming the bloke next to you, you might get called on it. Far better to attack a "Banker" or a politician from 25 years ago. But do those people blaming MT, or the Bankers, or anyone else actually understand what they are blaming or why? Or is it simply the need to blame outweighs the need to take responsibility? In my experience I have yet to find someone that I would consider intelligent and responsible, from any position on the political scale or any set of beliefs, who indulges in or relies on blame as much as the truly ignorant.

New Thu 11 Apr 13 17:31   Baroness Thatcher - Volume 2 - Bromptonaut

>> I would just love the owners of the song to declare that they were donating >> all revenue from the record sales to one of Margaret Thatcher's favourite charities. No knowledge of MT's charities but I'd be pressing for them to go to the miners welfare in the former coalfields. But then I'm a Northerner.       1

New Thu 11 Apr 13 17:37   Baroness Thatcher - Volume 2 - No FM2R

>>but I'd be pressing for them to go to the miners welfare in the former coalfield I'd be pressing for it to go to whatever charity that would distress the poor, sad, mindless idiots who bought the record the most.

New Thu 11 Apr 13 17:39   Baroness Thatcher - Volume 2 - Armel Coussine

>> whatever charity that would distress the poor, sad, mindless idiots who bought the record the most. The London Symphony Orchestra?

New Thu 11 Apr 13 17:28   Baroness Thatcher - Volume 2 - Bromptonaut

>> Would be fascinating to see a demographic breakdown of the people buying it. Probably 2% >> ex-miners, and 98% teenagers/students, who probably don't know who she was, but think it's a >> great jape anyway. >> >> If you're 16, and have no idea who she was, can't quite remember who Tony >> Blair was, and are only doing it for the..ahem..."lulz", is it still disrespectful? I think the 2% ex-miners, albeit tic substantially under estimates her enduring capacity to divide - see Bobby's post above. My kids are seriously surprised at the level of 'who was she' comments amongst this year's A level cohort. I'd like to think my generation could have placed her rival as great peacetime PM, Attlee, correctly. Daughter, who is a student of politics, has found the whole thing fascinating and an education.

New Thu 11 Apr 13 17:48   Baroness Thatcher - Volume 2 - SteelSpark

>> I think the 2% ex-miners, albeit tic substantially under estimates her enduring capacity to divide >> - see Bobby's post above. Not entirely tic, but rather trying to reflect that those who hated her, but are of an older generation might not tend to express themselves by downloading such songs. Whereas, I'd wager that there are endless teenagers, who only heard of her when she died, downloading it just for fun. The same could perhaps be said for the street parties, and other nonsense. How many are spurred by real hate and/or protest, and how many just out there for the sheer hell of it?