Non-motoring > Sunderland up to its armpits. Tee hee... Miscellaneous
Thread Author: Armel Coussine Replies: 47
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New Wed 3 Apr 13 20:00 
 Sunderland up to its armpits. Tee hee... - Armel Coussine
Poor David Miliband has had to resign from his favourite football club and main working-class qualification following the appointment of Paolo di Canio as manager. No wonder Miliband is fleeing to warm, soft-capitalist America.

So far di Canio, a fascist, has said first that he is a fascist but not a racist, something that won't really convince anyone. It's true that the posturing ninny Mussolini wasn't originally anti-Semitic, but he and the Italian fascists joined in with a will after the Hitler-Mussolini love-in. Anyway Italians, though kind-hearted and lazy, are pretty racist in their hearts. I remember a rather posh boy from Milan whom we met in Lecce in the late sixties. He referred to the locals (among whom he was stationed during his national service) as 'nigretti' - little black geezers. And there was Abysssinia of course.

Now di Canio says he doesn't subscribe to fascist ideology. Since when? Why hasn't the idiot admitted that he used to be a fascist - I imagine everyone has seen the clips of him baring his teeth and doing the salute - but has realised the error of his youthful ways and is now a bunny, tree, feminist and gay hugger? Nothing could be easier, but the little footie-playing nazi hasn't done it.

I'm not from Sunderland but I will be surprised if this one doesn't run for a while. What idiots people are.
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New Wed 3 Apr 13 20:32 
 Sunderland up to its armpits. Tee hee... - Robin O'Reliant
What's it matter if he's a Fascist? He's managing a football club, his political beliefs are irrelevant provided they don't interfere with his work. There'd soon be an outcry if a Muslim was prevented from working because his religion is seen as homophobic.

Incidently, Di Canio's best friend at West Ham was Trevor Sinclair, a black player and his agent is Jewish.
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New Wed 3 Apr 13 20:41 
 Sunderland up to its armpits. Tee hee... - Armel Coussine
OK RR. So why doesn't he say he's changed?

Naturally his politics have nothing to do with his value as a manager. But, you know, for one reason and another those fascist salutes have become a matter of public discussion, and that could interfere with the holy and sacred exercise of goddam football. Di Canio and Sunderland have played this incredibly badly. No doubt baffled Geordies will be hoping that doesn't presage rubbish play on the field.

Personally I rather hope it does. Nasty of me I know.

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New Wed 3 Apr 13 20:50 
 Sunderland up to its armpits. Tee hee... - Robin O'Reliant
>> OK RR. So why doesn't he say he's changed?
>>

>>
Why should he?

His political beliefs are nobody's business but his own provided they don't prejudice his dealings with people. There is no evidence that they have.
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New Wed 3 Apr 13 20:59 
 Sunderland up to its armpits. Tee hee... - Armel Coussine

>> His political beliefs are nobody's business but his own

Garbaggio comrade. That's what di Canio says, but he would wouldn't he?

The media have done the right thing by dragging up this ancient history. The guy should explain himself, not just whinge that the comment is hurtful.
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New Wed 3 Apr 13 21:12 
 Sunderland up to its armpits. Tee hee... - Robin O'Reliant
>> The media have done the right thing by dragging up this ancient history. The guy
>> should explain himself, not just whinge that the comment is hurtful.
>>

Nobody outside of politics has any need to explain whatever perfectly legal beliefs they have. Plenty of Stalinists went on to high office in public life without being called to account.
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New Wed 3 Apr 13 21:22 
 Sunderland up to its armpits. Tee hee... - Armel Coussine
The Stalinists helped enormously to win the war against fascism. The fascists were on the other side. They were wrong, the Stalinists were right, as we were, anyway about the fascists.

If I were a Geordie I would expect di Canio to explain that he used to be the enemy, but isn't any more. If he didn't I wouldn't take him to my warm Geordie heart. That's the problem he has brought with him and very ostentatiously failed to solve.

How much are they paying this monkey anyway?
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New Wed 3 Apr 13 21:26 
 Sunderland up to its armpits. Tee hee... - Bromptonaut
>> If I were a Geordie

If you were a Geordie you'd not be from Sunderland. They're mackems on Wearside
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Wed 3 Apr 13 at 21:28
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New Wed 3 Apr 13 21:35 
 Sunderland up to its armpits. Tee hee... - Armel Coussine
>> If you were a Geordie you'd not be from Sunderland. They're mackems on Wearside

They all sound the same to us Bromptonaut. But Mackem by all means.
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New Wed 3 Apr 13 21:53 
 Sunderland up to its armpits. Tee hee... - No FM2R
>>Nobody outside of politics has any need to explain whatever perfectly legal beliefs they have

Of course not.

I do tend to think though, if I was so much in the public eye, I might see it as being to my own advantage to do so. Especially if I was relying on the support of some of that public.

I think the way he's handling the issue speaks rather more about his character than any political beliefs he holds or has held.

Having said that, I suspect that he'd get the media in his face whatever he did.
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New Wed 3 Apr 13 22:25 
 Sunderland up to its armpits. Tee hee... - Roger.
Plenty of German politicians in today's crop learnt their trade in East Germany!
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New Wed 3 Apr 13 21:42 
 Sunderland up to its armpits. Tee hee... - Zero
>> >> OK RR. So why doesn't he say he's changed?
>> >>
>>
>> >>
>> Why should he?
>>
>> His political beliefs are nobody's business but his own provided they don't prejudice his dealings
>> with people. There is no evidence that they have.

You were hoping he would be West Ham manager at some stage there RR,,,,, Just like me. Paulo played his legs off for West Ham, the fans there worship him.
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New Wed 3 Apr 13 21:55 
 Sunderland up to its armpits. Tee hee... - Robin O'Reliant
>> You were hoping he would be West Ham manager at some stage there RR,,,,, Just
>> like me. Paulo played his legs off for West Ham, the fans there worship him.
>>
>>
One of the best players the club ever had Zero, and a true Hammer in the traditional mould. He'd have fitted into any of the sides that earned a reputation for the quality of their football.
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New Wed 3 Apr 13 20:43 
 Sunderland up to its armpits. Tee hee... - Bromptonaut
How did this story get 'legs'?

The answer I think is that Di Canio's appointment prompted Miliband D to resign from club's board.

Now, having applied for an office of profit under the crown, Miliband wouldn't be looking for an out from the North East without looking too much like a reverse carpet bagger would he?

Now would he?
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Wed 3 Apr 13 at 20:44
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New Wed 3 Apr 13 20:59 
 Sunderland up to its armpits. Tee hee... - sooty123
What's a reverse carpet bagger?
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New Wed 3 Apr 13 21:25 
 Sunderland up to its armpits. Tee hee... - Bromptonaut
>> What's a reverse carpet bagger?

Perhaps a poor choice of phrase. Even as a committed Labour man I doubt David M's directorship of Sunderland AFC reflected anything more than an attempt to ingratiate himself with a sub set of his (former) constituents.
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New Wed 3 Apr 13 21:44 
 Sunderland up to its armpits. Tee hee... - Armel Coussine
>> Even as a committed Labour man I doubt David M's directorship of Sunderland AFC reflected anything more than an attempt to ingratiate himself with a sub set of his (former) constituents.

As I said differently in the OP... but to give the devil his due, perhaps David Miliband quite likes footie from the directors' box, Veuve Clicquot to hand. A lot of people do. Even I watch it sometimes on the box. But don't spread it around.

As a committed Labour man, though, I'm not sure you should be trying to defend a fascist by calling poor Tweedlegeek a carpetbagger, either way round. Smacks of rabid football enthusiasm to me.

It's only a game for heaven's sake. Or rather, it isn't, unfortunately.
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New Wed 3 Apr 13 21:49 
 Sunderland up to its armpits. Tee hee... - R.P.
BBC in its new prissy self refers to his German/Nazi salute as a "Roman" salute. A certain publication has Kim Jong Un as the manager-in-waiting of Carlisle United....
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New Wed 3 Apr 13 22:10 
 Sunderland up to its armpits. Tee hee... - Armel Coussine
>> Kim Jong Un as the manager-in-waiting of Carlisle United....

Yeah, but he's put on a bit of weight since he scored 107 goals against Brazil in 12 minutes in a friendly whose details have been suppressed by imperialism. The other thing is he has these duties. So Carlisle can whistle cheerfully for it.
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New Wed 3 Apr 13 22:55 
 Sunderland up to its armpits. Tee hee... - Londoner
Funny how David Miliband feels that he has to resign from the board of a football club because an alleged Fascist gets appointed as manager, but he didn't feel compelled to resign from a cabinet led by a war criminal.
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New Thu 4 Apr 13 00:33 
 Sunderland up to its armpits. Tee hee... - Armel Coussine
>> an alleged Fascist

Come come Londoner. Look at the clips. Di Canio is or was a fascist.

>> cabinet led by a war criminal.

War is crime. In that sense, yes, perhaps. But this Blair stuff is pretty silly really. Exaggerated and fed by trivial voter preference as a rule. Any national leader risks becoming a war criminal. If you weren't up for that you wouldn't climb the greasy pole.
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New Thu 4 Apr 13 02:28 
 Sunderland up to its armpits. Tee hee... - Londoner
>>But this Blair stuff is pretty silly really

No it isn't, AC, and I am disappointed in you. Ask the Iraqis who told the BBC reporter recently that life was actually worse now than under Saddam Hussein if it is "pretty silly".

>> Any national leader risks becoming a war criminal. If you weren't up for that you wouldn't climb the greasy pole.

There is a big difference between Blair and other Prime Ministers of the last 100 years. Asquith, Lloyd George, Chamberlain, Churchill, Atlee and Thatcher were leaders of the UK during times of wars which they did not start, whereas Blair was an active warmonger, and eager supporter of the right-winger George W. Bush. Nelson Mandela described Blair as "the U.S. foreign minister".

From wikipedia: "In his first six years in office Blair ordered British troops into battle five times, more than any other prime minister in British history."

Yes, Di Canio is/was a fascist - but he is a choirboy compared to Blair.
Last edited by: Londoner on Thu 4 Apr 13 at 02:28
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New Thu 4 Apr 13 03:16 
 Sunderland up to its armpits. Tee hee... - Armel Coussine
>> Di Canio is/was a fascist - but he is a choirboy compared to Blair.

Certainly, although choirboys aren't all saints. Blair's record is poor. But he was unlucky in his time, and in the US government of his time. The Iraq thing was done stupidly and the British were helpless passengers. I don't think Blair intended things to become worse for the Iraqis.

Perhaps I am wrong to defend him though. He was a brilliant parliamentarian but a fairly crap statesman, impulsive at best.

Thinking about that stuff does make di Canio's ugly faces and dumb Hitler salutes look pretty small beer. But you still wouldn't want him in your sitting room until he had explained himself.
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New Thu 4 Apr 13 07:24 
 Sunderland up to its armpits. Tee hee... - R.P.
What a lot of people I know can't stomach with Blair is his sanctimonious, self-righteous, hypocritical, beatings since the war - nobody likes him any more - and I don't think he can handle that. He wants to be loved by someone.
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New Thu 4 Apr 13 07:31 
 Sunderland up to its armpits. Tee hee... - Pat
Don't we all? :)

Pat
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New Thu 4 Apr 13 19:26 
 Sunderland up to its armpits. Tee hee... - Westpig
>> He was a brilliant parliamentarian

If by that you mean manipulator extraodinaire, then I agree.
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New Thu 4 Apr 13 00:40 
 Sunderland up to its armpits. Tee hee... - Cockle
Demonstrates a lot of what is wrong in the reporting of football in this country now, it is so Premiership centric that it is almost laughable.

All of a sudden Di Canio's politics are a problem, nobody seemed to notice when he was managing Swindon in League 2 last year and League 1 at the beginning of this season. Also his achievement of getting Swindon promoted last year was lauded on MOTD as him demonstrating his abilities at a cash strapped club, they didn't seem to realise that he had by far the biggest budget in League 2 last year by far and that was what caused Swindon to be cash strapped and nearly go broke this year.
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New Thu 4 Apr 13 19:54 
 Sunderland up to its armpits. Tee hee... - Robin O'Reliant
Letter in the Guardian -

"As a Sunderland fan I was mortified to discover the club had aligned itself with a dangerous idealogue who supports the implementation of a totalitarian regime that would use military force to impose its dogma on third party nations. I'm glad to see that David Milliband has now resigned"
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New Fri 5 Apr 13 11:18 
 Sunderland up to its armpits. Tee hee... - neiltoo
>> "As a Sunderland fan I was mortified to discover the club had aligned itself with
>> a dangerous idealogue who supports the implementation of a totalitarian regime that would use military
>> force to impose its dogma on third party nations. I'm glad to see that David
>> Milliband has now resigned"
>>

Have to clean the coffee out of the keyboard again.

8o)
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New Fri 5 Apr 13 13:56 
 Sunderland up to its armpits. Tee hee... - Armel Coussine
>> I'm glad to see that David Milliband has now resigned"

Oh ho ho ho... but I've regretted this thread ever since starting it.

Today's comic says Sunderland players have been reassured by teams formerly managed by Mr di Canio that he hasn't shown any signs of racism, and are invigorated by his approach to the game.

That's all right then. And it's true that other sports personalities have shown a distasteful political side while remaining widely accepted. I still wouldn't want him in the sitting room, but I wouldn't want most of them either.
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New Fri 5 Apr 13 14:22 
 Sunderland up to its armpits. Tee hee... - Dutchie
Surprising how many people are fascist or racist A.C.More than you think, if he keeps Sunderland in the premier league he will be a hero.

Remember prince Harry prouncing about in a Nazi uniform he should have known better.
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New Fri 5 Apr 13 16:43 
 Sunderland up to its armpits. Tee hee... - Armel Coussine
>> Remember prince Harry prouncing about in a Nazi uniform he should have known better.

To give the devil his due Dutchie that was at a fancy dress party and no doubt the young man hoped there wouldn't be any paparazzi. Some hope, in these days of the amateur paparazzo... and you're right, someone should have advised him not to do it.

'Prouncing' is a brilliant neologism, worthy of the lamented oldman... somehow combines poncing, prancing and pouncing in one tasty word.

:o}
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New Fri 5 Apr 13 17:15 
 Sunderland up to its armpits. Tee hee... - Robin O'Reliant
>> >> Remember prince Harry prouncing about in a Nazi uniform he should have known better.
>>
>>
Ed Balls has also been pictured in an SS uniform at a fancy dress during his younger days and Keith Moon used to go drinking in one. A fuss over nothing, fancy dress is meant as a P take, not a statement of political beliefs.

The further we get from the last war the more offended people seem to get over these things, no one moaned when Freddie Starr or other comics did it three decades ago.
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New Fri 5 Apr 13 18:12 
 Sunderland up to its armpits. Tee hee... - Armel Coussine
>> Ed Balls has also been pictured in an SS uniform at a fancy dress

Yes, but he's left (of centre anyway, more or less) so the irony was obvious. By the same token, Prince Harry would have looked a lot wittier if he had dressed as Stalin or Mao.

>> The further we get from the last war the more offended people seem to get over these things, no one moaned when Freddie Starr or other comics did it three decades ago.

European Jews of my generation whose families were robbed and murdered by the nazis have good reasons for jumping on any frivolous comment about nazism, and so do their children. I know because I've done it (been frivolous I mean) and got severely scolded for my coarseness. I couldn't doubt that they were right, hence my somewhat sanctimonious starting of this thread.
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New Fri 5 Apr 13 19:17 
 Sunderland up to its armpits. Tee hee... - Westpig
>> Ed Balls has also been pictured in an SS uniform at a fancy dress during
>> his younger days and Keith Moon used to go drinking in one. A fuss over
>> nothing, fancy dress is meant as a P take, not a statement of political beliefs.
>>
>> The further we get from the last war the more offended people seem to get
>> over these things, no one moaned when Freddie Starr or other comics did it three
>> decades ago.
>>

My take on it as well....Prince harry dressed as a Nazi..to me was a young man having a laugh at a fancy dress party...that's it.

If anyone wants to make more of it, they are mischief making.
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New Fri 5 Apr 13 14:55 
 Sunderland up to its armpits. Tee hee... - Londoner
>> ". . .I've regretted this thread ever since starting it. "
You shouldn't have any regrets, AC. It has been a very interesting discussion.

I despise Fascism, as I despise every other form of totalitarianism.

However if people such as Di Canio are to be banned from taking certain jobs purely because of their extremist views then where do we stop? What jobs SHOULD he be allowed to do, once that principle gets established? Accountant? Hairdresser? Vet?

People can only be banned from jobs if there is something about them which is fundamentally incompatible with that particular job, e.g paedophiles working with children, White supremacists working in jobs which require that they deal with all races impartially.
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New Fri 5 Apr 13 15:28 
 Sunderland up to its armpits. Tee hee... - No FM2R
I'd suspect he threw the "fascist not racist" term in to escape the last media storm over the salute, and has regretted that particular approach ever since.

However, whilst it is difficult to see how once can be Fascist without involving racism or some form of xenophobia, it is the only morally offensive bit of Fascism isn't it? I mean, the rest of it is wrong and ridiculous, but not *morally* offensive.

Unless I'm missing something?

So unless he is a racist, and I have no idea, then I'm not sure I see the outrage.
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New Fri 5 Apr 13 19:19 
 Sunderland up to its armpits. Tee hee... - Westpig
>> However if people such as Di Canio are to be banned from taking certain jobs
>> purely because of their extremist views then where do we stop? What jobs SHOULD he
>> be allowed to do, once that principle gets established? Accountant? Hairdresser? Vet?
>>
>> People can only be banned from jobs if there is something about them which is
>> fundamentally incompatible with that particular job, e.g paedophiles working with children, White supremacists working in
>> jobs which require that they deal with all races impartially.
>>

Quite agree. I don't like football and had never heard of Di Canio before all this fuss.

I now find myself almost in support of him.
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New Fri 5 Apr 13 19:31 
 Sunderland up to its armpits. Tee hee... - Zero
Hes a character. Unlike most, as a player whilst not being immune to the cash, he was primarily driven by passion for the game. A strange mix of win at all costs, pure of skill, and a sense of play by the rules, he was above all, 999% a character. Hated or loved, nothing in between.

For example, he once more or less, assaulted a referee whom he though was being a prat, for which he was banned. On the other hand he once stopped and picked up the ball when he could have scored a clear goal, so an injured player could get attention.


If the club and fans gave him support, he would walk on hot coals for them. You could be assured of value for money and entertainment from him. I even went to watch Swindon Town once to see his antics from the managers bench. hes not immune form calling a spade a shovel, and he'll give you the "truth" as he sees it.
Last edited by: Zero on Fri 5 Apr 13 at 19:33
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New Fri 5 Apr 13 20:12 
 Sunderland up to its armpits. Tee hee... - Robin O'Reliant
A smashing bloke by all accounts, wears his heart on his sleeve.

Fabio Capello once told him he had a face like a penis. Bit rich as Capello's on mush closely resembles a pair of grizzled swingers.
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New Fri 5 Apr 13 20:47 
 Sunderland up to its armpits. Tee hee... - Armel Coussine
Funny stuff this.

Lots of people who are 'characters' are thoroughly offensive and boring. Others who have been a bit idiotic are identified as bad.

I don't care for football much but I can see that it's a proper sport capable of generating 'passion' or great enthusiasm and devotion. But obsessive devotion to sport can be damaging and brutalising in itself.

It isn't simple at all. But I still regret starting this thread. Even though the clip of di Canio baring his teeth and sticking his little hand up makes you want to shoot the carphound. Perhaps that grimace passes for a winsome smile in footballing fascist circles.
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New Fri 5 Apr 13 21:00 
 Sunderland up to its armpits. Tee hee... - Robin O'Reliant
A photo captures but a fleeting moment and a facial expression and gesture can be taken way out of context.

As any tabloid editor knows.
Last edited by: Robin Regal on Fri 5 Apr 13 at 21:01
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New Fri 5 Apr 13 21:23 
 Sunderland up to its armpits. Tee hee... - Armel Coussine
That's true RR. I can think of a few personal examples. The camera often 'lies'.

Even so, the teeth, the salute and the fascist views even in the past... they add up to something.
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New Mon 8 Apr 13 12:18 
 Sunderland up to its armpits. Tee hee... - Ambo
>>What idiots people are.

Aren’t you being a little fascistic yourself, Armel? Contempt is very much a feature of fascist societies.

>> The fascists were on the other side. They were wrong, the Stalinists were right… anyway about the fascists.


Other features of fascism include the cult of The Great leader; intolerance of intellectuals suffering from “false consciousness” (i.e. disagreeing with the GL); a general push towards discipline and conformity; a well-developed secret police and network of sinister prisons; promulgation of an irrelevant or mythical past (Nordic Myths, Roman Empire, divine Emporer, at a pinch perhaps Alexander Nevsky); worship of power and development of military strength; and the creation of encouragement of hate targets (class, various races, foreign states also suffering “false consciousness”). I refer, of course, to aspects which apply to Stalinism.

>> this monkey

An echo of a number in the fascist send-up “Cabaret”. I think the title is “If you could see her from my eyes”.
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New Mon 8 Apr 13 12:27 
 Sunderland up to its armpits. Tee hee... - Ambo
Sorry, should be "Emperor".
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New Mon 8 Apr 13 13:13 
 Sunderland up to its armpits. Tee hee... - SteelSpark
Probably like the majority of men who publicly identify with fascism, it is seated in some kind of macho camaraderie image of the groups involved.

Young men who want to belong to some kind of cause, and feel all tough and macho at the same time.

It is a little sad, when they are 25 and struggling to find a way in life, but many will grow out of it. It's positively tragic when they are 45 and still needing that "macho" crutch, and just down right pathetic when they are 61 and have swastikas hanging on their front room wall.

tinyurl.com/cgyxuws

Di Canio should perhaps be ridiculed as a middle aged guy, still trying to be a macho man along with his "comrades", but I doubt that he is deeply involved in the ideology.





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New Mon 8 Apr 13 13:35 
 Sunderland up to its armpits. Tee hee... - Zero
>> Probably like the majority of men who publicly identify with fascism, it is seated in
>> some kind of macho camaraderie image of the groups involved.
>>
>> Young men who want to belong to some kind of cause, and feel all tough
>> and macho at the same time.

Its the uniforms, Facism is nothing without the fancy pervy uniforms. Thats why communism fell - crap uniforms.
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New Wed 1 May 13 01:00 
 Sunderland up to its armpits. Tee hee... - Armel Coussine
>> the fancy pervy uniforms.

Nothing like that for poor Mr di Canio now. He's always turned out in severe black Armaniesque gangster suits.

I have to say I've come round to him a bit having seen several photos of him still scowling as usual, but several feet in the air. Never seen a snarling man in a black suit hovering so far off the ground. A hint of Oriental sorcery there. It must terrify the players after their binge-drinking weekends.
Last edited by: Armel Coussine on Wed 1 May 13 at 01:01
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