I saw that. Good on him, the nation owes him a pint.
I dont blame Thornton for not answering though, Clegg has changed his story three times already so whatever he says would be old news the next day, not to mention untrue.
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Changed again by tonight's news. Man's a squirmer.
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Billy Bunter got fresh with town girls behind the tuckshop and now any sadistic prat of a voter can torture Nick Clegg and his cohorts on the already painful Eastleigh hustings. Have people no heart, or do they think this is poetic justice?
The raving loony, or one of them, is another Bunter lookalike.
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You sound like an apologist for this coalition AC. Mr Clegg deserves this. And what's wrong with the electorate challenging the elected members - or are they too precious ?
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>> Mr Clegg deserves this.
Why? He didn't do it. So Rennard's a groper, allegedly. There are a lot about. I imagine some people think it's the thing to do, though it's bullying when the perp is in a position of authority.
>>And what's
>> wrong with the electorate challenging the elected members - or are they too precious ?
What's going on is just an attack on his image and reputation, using any old stick to beat him with.
I'm no apologist either, he doesn't impress me.
They are all ducking and diving, pretending to be shocked and saintly, with the exception of the admirable Baroness Williams.
"... Baroness Williams, a senior member of the party, said the Lord Rennard situation had been "hopelessly exaggerated" and he was "a very fine man".
She went on to say that women in Parliament were "not treated very fairly" and described the Commons as a "very bullying place, a very masculine culture" that needed to change."
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>>Why? He didn't do it. So Rennard's a groper, allegedly. There are a lot about. I imagine some people think it's the thing to do, though it's bullying when the perp is in a position of authority.<<
Why? Because he is a liar. He said he didnt know anything, then he knew something, then he knows someone quit partly because of something - that is a man getting caught up in his own lies. He deserves everything that he gets if he knew about things and his party which prides itself on womens rights turns out to not practice what it preaches.
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I can't deny there's a point there Stu but it's such trivial stuff... and if what he knew was rumour, can he credit it? I gather that's his position now.
If only the gentlemen of the press would pursue important things with such vigour.
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>>I can't deny there's a point there Stu but it's such trivial stuff... and if what he knew was rumour, can he credit it? I gather that's his position now.
If only the gentlemen of the press would pursue important things with such vigour.<<
Who knows what his position is, it seems to depend on how much more leaks out which seems to be his cue to admit something.
Actually this is quite important - it is the deputy prime minister potentially presiding over a party which failed in its duty of care to its female members when they raised concerns of sexually inappropriate behaviour by a senior party member.
The fact Danny Alexander felt it important enough to warn off Rennard suggests to me they were well aware of what was going on and recent denials are simply a PR exercise that is going wrong.
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>> You sound like an apologist for this coalition AC. Mr Clegg deserves this.
I'm surprised you think so Rob. It's just that I'm not impressed by voxpop representatives banging away at the bleeding obvious... 'Did Bunter get fresh? Did he? Did he? Eh? Eh?'
The answer seems to be, not very. No worse than my glamorous aunt's frisky Dublin bishop.
And anyway, what have Bunter's fumblings got to do with the unhappy Mr Clegg's difficult job? Damn all, except in hypocritical (in the bad sense!) British tabloidese...
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Clegg should have coughed the job or stuck to his story, rather than do a spinnig top impression. Might have done him some good !
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>> Clegg should have coughed the job or stuck to his story, rather than do a
>> spinnig top impression. Might have done him some good !
True. Taking the first loss is your least loss with these things.
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He was the same with the Student Fees thing - I actually agree with what they did - but why apologise for something he seemed to agree with ?
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I like it,don't point your finger at me.>:) UKIP win?
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It's just the LDs getting the attention of journalists in detail - something they are unused to.
As they are a party which likes to face at least two ways at once, the public attention makes Janus look straight faced...
Edit
For a small Party, they have a long and dishonourable history: Lloyd George, Thorpe, Pantsdown, Oaten Huhne etc.
At least they are consistent in that aspect :-)
Last edited by: madf on Wed 27 Feb 13 at 19:55
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What is the result going to be then?
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>> What is the result going to be then?
>>
Man Utd to win .
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And by the way, UKIP is looking distinctly uppity in Eastleigh (well done Rastaman, Stu and other nutters) and Labour, contrary to my confident prediction, is looking pretty sick for a mainstream party with the sitting one in some disarray....
Can't win em all innit.
Last edited by: Armel Coussine on Wed 27 Feb 13 at 23:54
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I dont think any UKIPper dare think of winning, that would I think suprise even Tigger.
I would be speechless if UKIP won tomorrow but regardless of that, they have managed to mobilise Lib Dem style for a by-election, something they talked about but few thought they would actually do it.
They also seem to have picked a better than usual candidate who has had some rather positive press for the way she has handled herself, unlike Hutchings who has been a bit of a car crash at times.
Last edited by: FoR on Thu 28 Feb 13 at 00:16
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As Confucius might have said,
Man who adopts moral high ground invites egg on face.
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What the hell is innapropriate behaviour?
See Zoe Williams in today's Grauniad:
www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/feb/27/carnival-chaos-over-sex-injustice
Also an interesting discussion about women's experince in politics on Today. Participants were Sheila Gunn (C), Gisela Stuart (Lab) and a third player, presumably Lib, whose name I missed. Pretty much common ground between them that there were and still are sex pests but it's better than it used to be.
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It's not so much the inappropriate behaviour allegations which have hurt the LibDems, but the incredibly cack-handed way they have responded.
Their leader has blustered, denied and now finally admitted "some" previous knowledge about some complaints (specific or not!)
Had he come clean straight away about the party management's prior knowledge; apologised and promised a third party enquiry and stricter implementation of proper guidelines (if found necessary by said enquiry) I think this would gone away by now.
Last edited by: Roger on Thu 28 Feb 13 at 14:29
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>> They also seem to have picked a better than usual candidate who has had some
>> rather positive press for the way she has handled herself, unlike Hutchings who has been
>> a bit of a car crash at times.
Win or lose, Diane James has done us proud.
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Certainly has Roger. I have seen several comments in articles saying that she came across as a Tory A-lister, more so that Maria which at a time when the party wants to be taken more seriously is exactly the sort of press she needed to get. What she also has is a really rather good CV - varied and even speaks several languages. If she is the UKIP candidate of the future then it is looking rather good.
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Good point Roger - Politicians deserve to be brought down to earth - these AMs that Wales have are quite heavy handed in the way that they deal with stuff - they are remote from the public in their gin palace in Cardiff Bay - yet they are surprised when they get a drubbing from their public - they appear to have forgotten why and by whom they were elected. They seem to think that accountability are for other people - Police/NHS or whoever else is getting a kicking that day. They really need to get out more and not on escorted field trips but out amongst their electorate to speak to real people outside of election times.
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I think its rather flattering Roger. It is also a good measure of how worried they are.
I wonder how they are funding it now Lord Cashcroft has withdrawn his millions?
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Well, I just missed out on collecting a £200 win from William Hill - £10 at 20/1!
Interestingly, votes cast on the day had UKIP first: the postal votes, sent out before campaigning got going properly, swung it for the LibDems., as indeed happened for Labour at Rotherham.
Still, no complaints; that's the system and we live with it.
I did, however, feel sorry for poor Maria Hutchings, the Tory candidate and a decent lady, who was so devastated she left the count with a rictus smile pasted onto her face, refusing to speak to reporters.
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By elections are like giant killing acts by non league teams in the FA cup.
When it comes to the Final tho, only the established clubs are there.
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>> By elections are like giant killing acts by non league teams in the FA cup.
I'm not quite sure what the fuss in the press is about today.
1) The incumbent party won, despite a scandal blowing.
2) The incumbent was representing a party in government and at mid-term.
3) A small party did well in a By-election, but didn't win.
4) Someone else came 3rd.
5) There's no runner-up prize, nor is there a bronze medal.
When you look at it like that, you realise that someone somewhere is desperately trying to make news out of nothing.
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>> When you look at it like that, you realise that someone somewhere is desperately trying
>> to make news out of nothing.
True. The Tories, the leading party in the coalition, have got the result that most sitting governments get in a by election, no surprise there.
But they have still managed more than 10,000 votes, over 6,000 more than the Labour candidate.
Labour got almost exactly the same share of the vote as they did in 2010, and half the share they got in 2005, so it looks as if quite a few Labour voters have switched to UKIP too.
In fact Labour's share as a proportion of the Conservatives' share is well down on 2005, so it's not just the Tories who have a mountain to climb.
On QT last night, Ken Loach accurately pointed out that there is no proper party of the Left. He's right. Labour is currently harder to take seriously than UKIP (represented incidentally by the rather feeble Neil Hamilton).
Ken Loach 9 minutes in - food for thought.
www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b01r1twc/Question_Time_28_02_2013/
Last edited by: Manatee on Fri 1 Mar 13 at 11:16
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>> On QT last night, Ken Loach accurately pointed out that there is no proper party
>> of the Left. He's right. Labour is currently harder to take seriously than UKIP.
Actually there ARE a few "hard left" parties available, such as the Green Party, The Socialist Party of Great Britain (SPGB), the Communist Party and a few others.
Why are they not greater in strength? Because hard left Socialist policies are completely discredited, that's why!
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>> Actually there ARE a few "hard left" parties available, such as the Green Party, The
>> Socialist Party of Great Britain (SPGB), the Communist Party and a few others.
>> Why are they not greater in strength? Because hard left Socialist policies are completely discredited,
>> that's why!
Roger,
You spoil your argument by bracketing the Greens with the 'hard left'. Whether you agree with them or not they are a party founded on clear principles and not solely on revolution or primarily on redistributive economics. The also have an MP, Caroline Lucas (Brighton Pavilion), and modest representation in local government and in Europe.
Socialist parties in the UK have doctrinal splits that make the Scots Free Churches look a paragon of brotherhood. We have however had communist MPs in the past of whom Willie Gallacher was the most famous sitting for Wet Fife from 1935 until 1950.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Fri 1 Mar 13 at 12:06
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>> You spoil your argument by bracketing the Greens with the 'hard left'.
I always bracket the Greens with the 'hard left'. If you actually look past the "must do green fings", "we luv whales" and "no nukes" rhetoric at the detail policy that actually matters (i.e. how they'd run a country) they're rabid Marxists with a healthy dose of good, old-fashioned, Soviet style statism added.
There's a good reason why, in countries with a PR system, you'll always find the greens and reds in coalition.
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Country's with a full pr system can work well.Nothing wrong with the greens being part of a coalition Germany isn't dong to bad are they.
We have a half baked system here which isn't working that's why UKIP is doning ok at the moment.Jo public don't know whichway to turn and will vote for anybody whith different idea's.
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>> There's a good reason why, in countries with a PR system, you'll always find the
>> greens and reds in coalition.
Which country would that be?
Not Ireland where the Greens went into coalition with Fianna Fail and the righ/libertarian Progressive Democrats?
Wiped out at next election.
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>> >> There's a good reason why, in countries with a PR system, you'll always find
>> the
>> >> greens and reds in coalition.
>>
>> Which country would that be?
>>
For personal experience - Spain.
Izquierda Unida (United Left) is an alliance between the Greens and the Communists.
They run a good number of Town Halls, especially in Andalusia.
For those who think a Spanish Town Hall is similar to a UK one, think again! They are much more akin to a UK District Council in their powers, including planning, taxing and control of many, many aspects of local life.
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>> >> You spoil your argument by bracketing the Greens with the 'hard left'.
>>
>> I always bracket the Greens with the 'hard left'. If you actually look past the
>> "must do green fings", "we luv whales" and "no nukes" rhetoric at the detail policy
>> that actually matters (i.e. how they'd run a country) they're rabid Marxists with a healthy
>> dose of good, old-fashioned, Soviet style statism added.
>>
>> There's a good reason why, in countries with a PR system, you'll always find the
>> greens and reds in coalition.
Spot on TeeCee.
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>> When it comes to the Final tho, only the established clubs are there.
>>
Like in the last few years, Millwall, Stoke, Cardiff, Portsmouth, Southampton, West Ham.....all perennial also-rans. Granted, of those, only Portsmouth took the trophy.
In relation to the by-election, it's an excellent result for a governing party to hold a seat mid-term, especially one beset by scandal. The UKIP vote was a protest vote, and their result will not be reflected in the General Election. Which means, obviously, no MPs and no influence for them, as usual. Which, although I disagree with them strongly, is perverse and wouldn't happen under alternative, fairer voting systems. Which the good old British Public refused to acknowledge when offered one.
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>>Which, although I disagree with them strongly, is perverse and wouldn't happen under alternative, fairer voting systems. Which the good old British Public refused to acknowledge when offered one.<<
AV was a dumb idea. If you are going to change it, go the whole way and go for PR.
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It would have been a step in the right direction, and would have given the opportunity for full PR to become a reality. By rejecting it we've made it impossible for PR ever to come to pass. And have, therefore, forever prevented your favourite party from gaining the representation it deserves, given the number of people who agree with it.
So, I see absolutely zero point in anyone supporting them whilst this situation remains. You're peeing in the wind.
AS I read on another forum this morning:
"If UKIP can't win a by-election handed to them on a plate, what hope have they possibly got when they have to go into another General Election campaign and activity takes place across 600+ constituencies rather than just one?"
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Nothing is impossible and I dont believe in making grubby little compromises - I consider AV worse that FPTP so I have no problem rejecting it. AV wouldnt have lead to PR, we would have just been stuck with AV for 100 years - if you are going to change it, do it properly and if you cant bring the people with you, it is the wrong time and you have to accept it.
>>So, I see absolutely zero point in anyone supporting them whilst this situation remains. You're peeing in the wind.<<
4000 people voted Labour in Eastleigh - now THAT is peeing in the wind.
>>"If UKIP can't win a by-election handed to them on a plate, what hope have they possibly got when they have to go into another General Election campaign and activity takes place across 600+ constituencies rather than just one?" <<
I wouldnt call starting from 3.6% having it handed to them. It is unrealistic nonsense to expect them to win from 3.6% ( or 11% ish nationally ) when at the beginning they were expecting to be flighting over 3rd with Labour so the fact they came within 1800 votes of doing so is frankly remarkable and it is only the normal partisan motivations that prevent people recognising that.
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It was a by-election, FoR. The voters will return to type at the General Election, as they will perceive it as an election for Prime Minister and a governing party. Ukip vote will crash and burn in Eastleigh due to this (and it will remain a fringe party with no MPs everywhere else also). Yesterday's vote was a protest vote, when the chips are truly down, and in a FPTP system, protest votes evaporate.
Nothing, absolutley nothing, can be said about Ukip's chances nationally as an upshot of this by-election. Nothing.
The Greens have won a seat, Respect win seats - they target unique, specific places in the country where their brands of extremism find support. Ukip isn't extreme enough to be able to do this. On the right wing, only a party like the BNP has a chance of a seat or two if they got their act together like Respect or The Greens. Happily, they're far too barmy to do anything like that. Ukip is peeing in the wind. There is zero chance of this changing.
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In a proper PR system they would have a change and a input what will happen in this country.
It is obvious the general public isn't happy with the present system that is why less and less people vote.You end up with a minority running the country what is happening now.
You could say that labour and tory are extreme depends which way you look at it.
Supporting the banks and our downfall is a form of extremism.
In my opinion the labour party died years ago with Tony Blair, all they are are soft Torie's now.T
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"It is obvious the general public isn't happy with the present system that is why less and less people vote.You end up with a minority running the country what is happening now."
Nobody likes austerity measures even when needed. Just read the DT to see the drivel they write. "Cuts are good - as long as they don't affect me " is the motto.
I fully expect a Labour Government come 2015 and a wave of strikes in 2017 when trade unionists realise that Ed Balls is an incompetent lying bar steward who can't give them moire money. And that the main priority of NHS management is to preserve their jobs and pensions and accountability stands in the way of that.
As for minority Governments? What minority? The combined Coaltion votes at the last GE were 17m vs Labour 8.6m
news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/election2010/results/
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Complacency of rivals is very useful to UKIP, please do spread the word wont you :-)
Unlike you, I dont make predictions about what will happen years in advance so I will simply note down your thoughts and come back to you in May, then 2014 and finally 2015.
Ive no idea if UKIP will break through, but I dont think it is impossible, only unlikely - stranger things have happened.
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I expect UKIP will do thunderously well in European elections, probably garnering the second largest share of the vote, and disappear off the radar in a General Election - no seats, about 5% of the vote at best. That's my bet.
All because of the differing electoral systems.
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If this country had your attitude of 'its not worth doing it if you dont think you can win' in 1939 we would all be speaking german and going to regimented David Hasselhoff discos.
What is your prediction for May? How many win/loss?
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Godwin arrives. Excellent.
In May, UKIP will do marginally better than in the last corresponding elections. But as they are not really a party aimed at local governance issues, they won't do so great. That's my prediction. It will be the usual swings and roundabouts for the three main parties. Nothing exciting.
Do gleefully ram it down my throat when it turns out to be wrong.
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>>Do gleefully ram it down my throat when it turns out to be wrong <<
Front and centre, Sir!
Relentlessly, in capitals.
:-)
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UKIP have picked up seats in European elections over several years as these polls are on a PR basis.
It's possible that if Farage puts himself up in a winnable seat, for example if a Tory were to get involved in a scandal in winter 14/15, he or another high profile candidate mght get in.
The chances of more than 2 seats can be discounted. Remember predictions for the SDP in 1981/2?
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>> UKIP have picked up seats in European elections over several years as these polls are
>> on a PR basis.
>>
>> It's possible that if Farage puts himself up in a winnable seat, for example if
>> a Tory were to get involved in a scandal in winter 14/15, he or another
>> high profile candidate mght get in.
There will undoubtedly be Tory scandals in winter 14/15.. Depends on what they are. If like the muppet swearing at IPSA.. then it would be low level stuff.
Rent boys, bribery and a yacht would be different :-)
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>>Rent boys, bribery and a yacht would be different :-) <<
I think Labour and the Lib Dems have that covered although Tim Yeo looks like he may come unstuck with his conflicts of interest.
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I wouldn't get too cocky about scandals if I were a UKIP supporter. They've got Neil Hamilton on board now.
Get any bigger and the press will be all over UKIP just like the other parties. Skeletons will come crashing out. Sure as eggs is eggs.
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Nobody can as the Rennard scandal has proven.
I personally do worry about there still being anarchists or idiots lurking in the party, but the better they do and the more mainstream the policies become, the harder it will be for them to stick around undiscovered.
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Never underestimate the British Public. - Stuu
