are they still important, does anyone care any more?
BBD's recent thread about a chap dragging his wife under the car door prompts this question.
Does anyone open and close the door and assist a lady or indeed their own fair maidens in entering and alighting from their cars by proferring a steadying arm to hold....its not a comment on anyones age or frailty, young or old always appreciated by a well brought up lady i find as are most manners from a increasingly distant previous era.
A lovely woman seemed pleasantly surprised at a customers premises recently when i doffed my safety helmet to her..;)
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>>
>> Does anyone open and close the door and assist a lady or indeed their own
>> fair maidens in entering and alighting from their cars by proferring a steadying arm to
>> hold....its not a comment on anyones age or frailty, young or old always appreciated by
>> a well brought up lady i find as are most manners from a increasingly distant
>> previous era.
No. They wanted equality, they got it ! :-)
Last edited by: Skip on Fri 22 Feb 13 at 20:12
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>>A lovely woman seemed pleasantly surprised at a customers premises recently when i doffed my safety helmet to her<<
I doffed my helmet at a lovely woman recently, and she ran a mile.
But seriously folks, when I was with my German g/f in the 90's she expected all that palaver all-the-time, she was a 'cultured' lady (she said) I found it all a pain-in-the-ass.
She even tried to teach me how to hold a knife and fork properly :)
She was a very nice woman (and all that) but I was glad to get back to eating with my fingers.
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I hold doors open for ladies, open & shut the car door for my wife, walk on the outside on pavements, and say "please" and "thank you" for small tasks done for me by her ( a nice meal or a shirt ironed, for instance).
I was also brought up to doff headgear to appropriate persons and at one school was required to raise my straw boater to any CofE clergyman, known to me or not - well it was a cathedral school:-)
These days I say "pardon" if I fart in bed!
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>> I hold doors open for ladies, open & shut the car door for my wife,
>> walk on the outside on pavements, and say "please" and "thank you" for small tasks
>> done for me by her ( a nice meal or a shirt ironed, for instance).
I'm 'only' 38 but I believe very strongly in good manners to all, not least female members of the opposite sex. I do all of the above for Mrs B, and also walk behind her when going up stairs, and in front of her when go down stairs, lest she stumble. My Grandpa was an absolute gent, through and through and I think that that has rubbed off on me.
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My wife called me a selfish pig because I didn't open the car door for her.
I was swimming for my life at the time.
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Mrs B wouldn't expect me to do any such thing. Indeed I've reminded her occasionally of house rules about engine off, park brake on and gear engaged before opening a door.
My mother gets the steadying arm thing but she needs it as she walks with a frame.
Otherwise I open/hold doors for people irrespective of gender. My female colleagues do the same including recognising fact that with bike in one hand and briefcase in other I potentially struggle with doors (though in practice I've a drill for each of them in our own building).
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Manners seem to me to be important. If you haven't grown up with them they are well worth acquiring at second hand.
I've been considered mad in Africa for standing up for a lady on a bus. But manners differ from place to place. In Africa it's important to remember people's names and utter them at least once a day.
'Manners' are formalised kindness and therefore essential to the fluid progress of things.
A year or two back when still in London I was touched on more than one occasion by younger people deferring to me for a seat on the bus or tube. They tended to be black or Indian, although I seem to remember an English girl offering me her seat once. I must have been looking well knackered.
It's quite all right to give chicks your chair and open doors for them while swearing and cursing freely in their presence. Anyway I hope it is because that's the way I behave.
Last edited by: VxFan on Wed 6 Mar 13 at 01:11
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Indeed manners differ from place to place. Here, it's not often someone will hold a door open for you, and if done for them they won't usually say thanks. I try to uphold (English) standards, while accepting theirs may be different, but it can sometimes grate a little.
When hunting, it's polite to take off your hat and gloves when first meeting and greeting, and the same when departing. I often forget, so they probably go home muttering about the rude Englishman.
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I tend to tailor the etiquette to the person involved.
Most older ladies like the the 'nice young man' to open the door, younger ones I dont usually bother with unless they are carrying something and there is a practical reason - they want equality they can open their own ruddy doors or even better, open the door for me :-)
Slightly different with the wife as she likes some of the old-fashioned gentleman bit, so I have to walk closest to the road and usually I hold the door for her, but she doesnt insist on any of it, she just likes the romance of men being gentlemen.
I find im most comfortable behaving that way but some people get so very offended by offers of help it isnt an automatic response anymore.
I dont think a woman has ever opened a door for me and usually when people hold the door after going through it is almost all men that do that in my experience, maybe they feel they wont offend another bloke so easily!
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>> some people get so very offended by offers of help it isnt an automatic response anymore.
Anyone who gave me gyp and accused me of male chauvinism for being courteous to them would soon see another side of me. I like to think they would never dare to react like that again. But the world is full of these stubborn moronic types.
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>> Anyone who gave me gyp and accused me of male chauvinism for being courteous to
>> them would soon see another side of me.
AC, here is something that I keep in reserve for such situations.
Lady: "I hope that you are not opening that door for me because I am a woman!"
Me: "No, it's not because *you* are a woman . . . it is because *I* am a gentleman!"
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Got help from a young women carrying some heavy stuff.She must have thought I was struggling and I was.Tall same height as me and strong.Got the feeling she was a off duty copper she looked the type fit as a fiddler.I thanked her and got a nice smile.
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I do all the old-fashioned stuff for Mrs L, and she always acknowledges and appreciates it.
A couple of years ago, I was on a small boat in Greece. There was a party of Greek senior citizens who were obviously on a day out, and everyone had a seat except for one old lady dressed in the traditional black. Nobody made a move, so I stood up and gestured toward my seat. She smiled warmly at me and sat down, whereupon Mrs L (who speaks fluent Greek) explained that I was English and rather old-fashioned in matters of etiquette.
Mrs L relayed to me later that the old lady had been very impressed and sparked a general discussion on how better behaved English men were than their Greek counterparts.
Obviously she has never seen the Brits at some of the more raucous holiday resorts!
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I certainly appreciate all of the gestures mentioned above and Ian does them a a matter of course.
I do find that good old fashioned manners seem to come from the people you least expect though, which always makes it a pleasant surprise.
I never wanted equality so why shouldn't I be treated like a lady.
To me true breeding was demonstrated occasionally when I was parked up overnight at a motorway service station.
It would be the end of a long hard day, I would have just climbed all over a load of steel of timber to secure the straps and looking grubby and disheveled. When walking across into the building to get a shower and a meal some well dressed buisiness men woulld still hold the door open for me.
I always thanked them but secretly marvelled that they hadn't judged me on appearance alone.
It was always a lovely moment to be reminded I was actually a female :)
Pat
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I sometimes find women scowl at me over minor courtesies, for example if I hold a door open for them. Perhaps they find it patronising?
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I travel through London on the Tube twice a month and on the odd occasion that I don't get a seat I am quite often get offered one by younger people. I am old enough to remember when people, both pedestrians and those in buses, took their hats off when they passed the Cenotaph.
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I am real gent, I unlock the car door for her. Its no hardship its only a button on the keyring.
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I used to hold the door open for my ex-wife. She did eventually get the hint...
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the boot out was the giveaway?
Last edited by: Zero on Sat 23 Feb 13 at 09:21
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An old friend of mine died last year - he was once head of English at Winchester College and was the personification of the school motto 'manners makyth man'. I try to follow what was the best example I knew, now partly to keep his memory alive.
I once got the whacks at school for turning the obligatory touch of the cap when meeting a master in the street into a sweeping gesture which was interpreted (rightly) as sarcasm.
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Just as a matter of interest Mike, what is the level of gentlemanly behaviour and general manners in Austria? I recall that, in Germany in the early 70s, there was great formality, raising of hats, clicking of heels and the like. Quaint but charming I thought.
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>> great formality, raising of hats, clicking of heels and the like. Quaint but charming I
>> thought.
Sounds rather sinister and arrogant to me
All this etiquette crap is just that, crap. Its not needed, all one needs to be is pleasant and friendly. In what ever way you wish to express it.
Last edited by: Zero on Sat 23 Feb 13 at 10:45
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I spent 8 years working for a German company. My german isn't too bad but where I used to get caught out was on when to use the formal form of address and when not to. I guess they just know instinctively.
For example, while in the office everyone was "Mr" or "Mrs" or "Miss" but if we went to the pub after work everyone reverted to informal use of first names regardless of their work status, age, gender or whatever. As a foreigner that often tripped me up.
Eventually, I decided to just do what I thought was right and let them think of me as eccentric if they wanted to.
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There is a difference between etiquette and good manners. Sometimes they are the same - why wouldn't you hold or open a door for someone, especially if they have their hands full.
Whether you put your milk in first is neither here not there to me. On the other hand there is some basic etiquette, such as how to use a knife and fork properly, that I wouldn't send my children into the world without.
One of Boy's girlfriends, a nice lass, held cutlery with the business end coming out out the little finger side of her hand - very disturbing.
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When we where children my brother sister and me wern't allowed to leave the diningroom table untill everybody finished eating.
You didn't start to eat untill everybody sat at the table.Using a knife and fork,we where tought at a early age.
We always turn the television off when anybody is visiting for a natter.Ignorant in my opinion trying to talk to sombody and looking at a T Screen.
If I go visiting people I take my shoes off don't like trampling over peoples carpet with maybe mucky shoes.I learned my lesson working on a barge for a while.Shoe's off before entering the cabin.And slippers on.Wash your hands after going to toilet.Plenty of people don't.
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I remember after the wall came down my east german relatives came over to visit - I remember being utterly struck as a child by how everyone shook hands - this toughened older lady ( turned out she was my grandfather's sister ) grabbed my hand out of nowhere with a vice like grip and Im sure nearly tore my arm off - I thought she was terrifiying.
It was the first time a woman ever shook my hand and there wasnt any hugging or kissing - even my little cousin Franzi who was 4 at the time came up and shook my hand.
Quite an experience when you are a kid.
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>>Just as a matter of interest Mike, what is the level of gentlemanly behaviour and general manners in Austria? I recall that, in Germany in the early 70s, there was great formality, raising of hats, clicking of heels and the like. Quaint but charming I thought.<<
I know nowt about Austria but the level of superficial courtesy in France is still very high. You get used to it and long may it continue. At first all the handshaking, kissing, saying hello to strangers, etc, takes some getting used to but you eventually miss it when it isn't there. I was in the UK a few years ago and popped into Asda. The place was packed and there were signs about 'greeters' and 'huddle points' (whatever they are) but no-one spoke to me or acknowledged my existence. When I got back to the pub my friends laughed when I said it made me feel twitchy, but that's the way it is when you are used to France.
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>> I've been considered mad in Africa for standing up for a lady on a bus.
>>
You'll be saddened to know that this is still the norm.
edit to add: when in a hotel in lagos, was most perturbed to have women on duty opening the door to and from the bar and restaurant in the hotel.
Just feels WRONG!
Last edited by: Ian (Cape Town) on Sat 23 Feb 13 at 16:42
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>> in a hotel in lagos, was most perturbed to have women on duty opening the door to and from the bar and restaurant in the hotel.
Just feels WRONG!
Yoruba respect can take pretty extreme forms. It is disconcerting at first when a maid goes down on one knee to hand you your beer or whisky. I used to object to being addressed as 'Master' by servants there, but complaining about it only upset and worried them, so I just had to accept it.
When a friend's mother stayed with us for a few days in London, we got a phone call from a young guy who asked tremulously if 'Chief Mrs. ******' was there. Later he and a friend came to see her. To our astonishment they both lay on their faces in front of her on our sitting room floor until she urged them to stand.
I am afraid such extreme deference is potentially dangerous to the characters of high-status individuals. Intelligent or kind-hearted people usually manage all right, but harsh, thuggish and arrogant treatment of servants, waiters and humble workers in the street is quite common among the more stupid and self-satisfied.
Last edited by: Armel Coussine on Sat 23 Feb 13 at 17:11
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It makes me cringe the way some people behave in front of Royalty the bowing and scraping not for me.I can inmagine Philip haviing a good laugh about it whe he is on his own or with his own kind.Be polite don't go over the top.
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I learned from my old man's example to open the car door for a woman so she can enter and then close it for her - although not necessarily to promptly jump out of the car at the end of the journey and open the door for her to climb out.
I rarely do that now with wifey, probably because we have a routine - she's the last to leave the house, set the alarm, lock both door locks and check the post box. Meanwhile, I've driven out of the garage, reset aircon, fan and temperature, selected the right tune while it warms up.
My old man doesn't do it now and I just don't see if very much. Shame really, perhaps it's just out of fashion. Or perhaps because modern cars lock and unlock themselves, even close the doors themselves.
Still do it for the mother-in-lard of course - open the door and offer her a seat behind me so I can't see her. Or smell her.
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>>although not necessarily to
>> promptly jump out of the car at the end of the journey and open the
>> door for her to climb out.
Silly boy, thats the best time to look up a ladies skirt.
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My mother-in-law once expressed a wish to have a run out in the passenger seat of my Westfield. FIL and my wife followed in his car. My father-in-law and I managed to get her in the Westie somehow but the only way we could get her out at the country pub we were visiting as a family for Sunday lunch was to take the roof off, slide a broom handle under her arms and with her husband at one end of the broom we'd borrowed from the pub and me at the other we sort of heaved her out into the car park. She never went in it again.
FIL and I couldn't eat our lunch for choking...
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I stop at the end of our track and wait for my wife to get out and open the gate, and then wait just beyond the gate so that she can get back in again.
But being a gentleman I stop at the point where it's not quite so muddy.
If it's dark I even drive on so that I can get out and turn the lights on for her.
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etiquette and gentlemans manners - Skip
