.... I thought they usually kept going until they died in modern times?
www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-21411304
Wonder what's prompted this. I know he's old but that's not made recent Popes resign.
In fact looking here: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papal_resignation
The last Pope to resign was Pope Gregory XII (1406–1415), who did so to end the Western Schism.
Last edited by: rtj70 on Mon 11 Feb 13 at 11:08
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Clearly deemed to be a bit news item by the BBC as it appears on their news website in a red banner on all pages. Usually the scrolling ticker tape headlines are on the front page only. You can close/acknowledge it so it goes to the default.
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Given the rigid "rules" of the vatican this is a major departure from the norm.
Perhaps in a few days when we find this moved to the Saville thread all will become clear.
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I did think of joking about it too but thought it inappropriate. It sounds like he is just doing the right thing due to his health and abilities so someone younger can take over. He might live for quite a while longer.
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As you point out it's not happened for some 600yrs and it is the tradition that the pope is wheeled out while there is breath in him.
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If I were Pope (!) I would have found the taint of scandal depressing since it is so major and engulfing.
See Priest's abuse of children
And the Vatican has I suspect more major financial scandals to come. Its prior involvement with the Mafia was quite deep - tinyurl.com/4vljh -and
tinyurl.com/3fxyuot
and
tinyurl.com/btkxxbk
and given Italy's political system...
Last edited by: madf on Mon 11 Feb 13 at 11:47
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I didn't think there was a "leave" or "resign" option available to the pope.
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>> I didn't think there was a "leave" or "resign" option available to the pope.
>>
I guess you were not around the last time it happened :-)
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>> >> I didn't think there was a "leave" or "resign" option available to the pope.
>>
>> >>
>> I guess you were not around the last time it happened :-)
Those were the days when the HR department poisoned popes they didn't like.
Last edited by: Zero on Mon 11 Feb 13 at 12:57
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Don't suppose the Vatican HR dept. wants to attract the wrath of the pope. "Anathema" is the pronouncement I think:)
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>> I did think of joking about it too but thought it inappropriate. It sounds like
>> he is just doing the right thing due to his health and abilities so someone
>> younger can take over. He might live for quite a while longer.
>>
Depends on the situation. In charge of a group worshiping a magical sky wizard whilst causing huge damage to many people across the world, then perhaps jokes are acceptable.
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Instead of resigning, why doesn't he just pop a prayer up to his boss, you know, ask him to sort out whatever it is that's up with him?
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I heard that he has Parkinson's. So maybe he/they are worried about his future decision making.
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I won't be applying for the job, the retirement prospects are terrible - no pension.
Ask any of the previous incumbents.
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Conspiracy theorists say some cover up is going on. Vatican is quite famous for such things :-)
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>>Depends on the situation. In charge of a group worshiping a magical sky wizard whilst causing huge damage to many people across the world, then perhaps jokes are acceptable.<<
Yup.
Who says it isn't a desperate bid to tempt Berlusconi away from trying to be PM with the chance of job with better perks?
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The BBC article says-
"Father Lombardi said the Pope would then move into a monastery of cloistered nuns inside the Vatican, for "a period of prayer and reflection".
That might tempt some!
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>> The BBC article says-
>> "Father Lombardi said the Pope would then move into a monastery of cloistered nuns inside
>> the Vatican, for "a period of prayer and reflection".
>>
>> That might tempt some!
>>
Not the nuns I have seen .. and sometimes they stink...
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Cloistered nuns stop inside don't they? You must have a good nose.
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or an excellent disguise........
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>> or an excellent disguise........
>>
I'm really Gerard Depardieu in drag..
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>> I'm really Gerard Depardieu in drag..
>>
Aaaaaargh! Quick! The Mind Bleach!
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Lesson from this?
Appoint a younger man who will have the energy to manage the changes needed. (See the COE choice of Archbish of Cant)
Chances? nil?
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>> God is not pleased...
>>
>> www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-21421810
>>
Hell yeah. Nothing like a bit of divine retribution to keep the God botherers happy!
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What a scoop!
The reporter who broke the news of Pope Benedict XVI's resignation got the scoop because she understood his announcement in Latin.
Italian wire service reporter Giovanna Chirri, who had clearly been paying attention in secondary school. Her Latin was up to the job and she broke the story of the pope's resignation to the world.
Most of the reporters present had to wait for the Vatican's official translations into Italian, English and languages that people actually speak
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I wonder what Chris would have thought of it all.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=ilfSlpENb2Y
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You know what he thought of it he spoke often enough about it.His brother is a practising catholic how different brothers can be.
The pope retired he is frail and old maybe he got a push who knows.There is something sinister about the Vatican.
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>> .There is something sinister about the Vatican.
>>
There is something sinister about all organised religions.
Momentito. ¿Dónde está mi sombrero de estaño?
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>>There is something sinister about all organised religions
Don't know if its sinister, but its certainly a thing.
A friend of mine is an Archbishop (Catholic). He's a good friend and we have many an argument/discussion over a wine. For an intelligent, aware and generally entertaining man he has a total blind spot where God is concerned.
He's pretty pragmatic about the Church, insofar as management of that church is concerned. But get anywhere near the religious beliefs and it is a totally closed mind.
He gets annoyed if one talks about crowd brainwashing.
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>>>A friend of mine is an Archbishop (Catholic). He's a good friend and we have many an argument/discussion over a wine. For an intelligent, aware and generally entertaining man he has a total blind spot where God is concerned.
He's pretty pragmatic about the Church, insofar as management of that church is concerned. But get anywhere near the religious beliefs and it is a totally closed mind.
He gets annoyed if one talks about crowd brainwashing.<<<
You could replace the the words 'archbishop', 'church' and 'God' by any suitable combination of corporate entities, and see a similar thing.
How about senior executive, apple & jobs for a start:)
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Oh no, An archbishop thinks he serves god, Jobs thought he was God.
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How about IBM and Akers?:)
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"He's pretty pragmatic about the Church, insofar as management of that church is concerned. But get anywhere near the religious beliefs and it is a totally closed mind.
He gets annoyed if one talks about crowd brainwashing"
Yeah, Id be the same I think, if someone started quizzing me about my values in life, in what might possibly come across at best as doubting manner and at worst a hostile or mocking manner, especially if I wore them on my sleeve like any overtly religious person does. Many people have closed minds on something or other - the most common probably being their political colour, you see it all the time here - so choosing something close to someone's heart as a discussion point is probably not the smartest thing to be doing.
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>> I wonder what Chris would have thought of it all.
Something disobliging, smug and predictable, along the lines of several posts here, but probably better turned.
It isn't a sign of towering intellect not to believe in childish mediaeval superstitions, so one can't help wondering why people are so eager to rubbish the superstitions. Something to do with denial of a nagging residual belief perhaps?
Heh heh...
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>> >> I wonder what Chris would have thought of it all.
>>
>> Something disobliging, smug and predictable, along the lines of several posts here, but probably better
>> turned.
>>
>> It isn't a sign of towering intellect not to believe in childish mediaeval superstitions
Haven't listed to all of it, but what he appears to be concentrating on is the numerous terrible actions carried out in the name of the religion, rather than its beliefs?
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>> Haven't listed listened to all of it
:)
Last edited by: Focusless on Tue 12 Feb 13 at 13:47
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>> the numerous terrible actions carried out in the name of the religion, rather than its beliefs?
Surely also well known to and well rehearsed by anyone with a smattering of history and current affairs? Tired stuff really. It would have seemed more shocking and stimulating to Americans who are more old-fashioned than us about religion. And Hitchens was slippery enough to endear himself to the US by sucking up to the Dubya gang. I think of him as their national treasure rather than ours.
Last edited by: Armel Coussine on Tue 12 Feb 13 at 13:51
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Hitchins was very pro attacking Iraq and always defending Bush.
No doubt a very intelligent man but to full of himself in my opinion.It's a shame you can't read Dutch A.C unless maybey you can.We used to have a eccentric caracter Godfey Boymans great to listen to.
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>>
>> It isn't a sign of towering intellect not to believe in childish mediaeval superstitions, so
>> one can't help wondering why people are so eager to rubbish the superstitions. Something to
>> do with denial of a nagging residual belief perhaps?
>>
>> Heh heh...
>>
>>
Those of us who were force fed the fantasy during our childhoods until we saw through it all and became old enough to realise that many of the people we were supposed to look up to for moral guidance were the biggest rogues and hypocrites under the sun are perfectly entitled to rubbish it.
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>>
>> Those of us who were force fed the fantasy during our childhoods... are perfectly entitled to rubbish it.
Of course, of course. But you are just kicking a dead horse.
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>>I wonder what Chris would have thought of it all.
Or ... Stephen Fry thinks of it all: www.youtube.com/watch?v=qqB3F6N527U
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>> I heard that he has Parkinson's. So maybe he/they are worried about his future decision
>> making.
>>
>>
I can see how that might make them a bit twitchy.....;-}
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According to dogma, the Pope is infallible, being guided directly by God, rather like a sock-puppet.
So if he makes a really, really, dodgy pronouncement, (use your imagination here!) it's OK 'cos it was in fact God who made it.
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According to dogma, the Pope is infallible"
Wot?, you mean like Mr Farage. Wow! ;-)
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According to me , I am infallible.
You can keep your mouldy old dog ma.
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It's all an unnecessary fuss anyway because the fact is, I am God.
I know I am because when I tried praying I found I was talking to myself...
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>> It's all an unnecessary fuss anyway because the fact is, I am God.
>> I know I am because when I tried praying I found I was talking to
>> myself...
So it's you everyone talks to down the 'big white telephone'?
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How did he manage to keep it so quiet and then manage to resign so quickly?
The Archbishop of Canterbury resigned months ago, but has only just got round to packing his belongings.
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>> How did he manage to keep it so quiet and then manage to resign so
>> quickly?
>>
>> The Archbishop of Canterbury resigned months ago, but has only just got round to packing
>> his belongings.
>>
The Archbish has to answer to a Conference which votes. See wimmin biships...
The Pope is absolute Head.. what he says goes..
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.....and he's said "I'm going" so he's gone.
Now the horse trading (!) by the red frocked, yarmulke wearing, power brokers begins.
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Apparently 'Arry Redknapp is interested in the job, though Jose Murinho is the bookies favourite.
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>> Apparently 'Arry Redknapp is interested in the job, though Jose Murinho is the bookies favourite.
'arry says there is not enough scope for bungs, and Jose thinks he is the popes boss.
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'Arry would love to have access to the Vatican Bank.
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www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-21572724
You have to wonder if this is the tip of a new iceberg due to float by soon? Perhaps the pope just couldn't face the hassle.
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>> www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-21572724
>>
>> You have to wonder if this is the tip of a new iceberg due to
>> float by soon? Perhaps the pope just couldn't face the hassle.
>>
The speculation in Italy is of sex rings for cardinals.
I agree: Pope felt he could not face all this especially after the abusing priests episode... but then it's naive to assume the priests were the only abusers.. They could not have gone on abusing without assistance from those above them....
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>>They could not have gone on abusing without assistance from those above them<<
Where's the missus put my mind bleach!
:}
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I think this link is now quite appropriate...
www.youtube.com/watch?v=rBhTIoIXoTI (Blackadder)
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I never was too happy about blokes who dress up in fancy frocks and go on about sky-fairies (or Jimmy Savile!).
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Something very, very wrong and possibly evil in the Catholic church.
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There's going to be a lot wrong and indeed evil in any big church or religion, and the bigger it is the worse the worst things will be. The small ones are different: some of them are pure nests of vipers and some seem pretty harmless and well-meaning.
But it's also true that a few high-profile scandals can create a very exaggerated impression. I was raised as a Catholic in a fairly part-time sort of way, attending several non-Catholic schools but also a convent and a Jesuit public school. I had a Jesuit great-uncle who had been an eminent education supremo. I had to learn to serve mass and wear those slightly silly clothes.
Never once was I abused nor anyone I knew well. I am a fairly keen observer but I can honestly say I never caught even a whiff of scandal. Once a priest in confession seemed a bit too interested in the details of my sins of impurity perhaps, and my glamorous Dublin-dwelling aunt mentioned a bishop who had tried to feel her up in a taxi... but that's it.
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>> Something very, very wrong and possibly evil in the Catholic church.
>>
My early years were spent in 1950's Ireland when the Catholic church had the same sort of hold on the population that the Nazis did in Germany. I developed a deep loathing of nuns in that time and for the first few years in England when I had them as school teachers. Thick as planks and cruel beyond belief with a hatred of little boys.
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>> My early years were spent in 1950's Ireland when the Catholic church had the same
>> sort of hold on the population that the Nazis did in Germany.
A little bit of hyperbole there, RR, but the Catholic Church did have significant influence in the Republic.
Fair play to the Irish though. They have fought and largely won a battle against these reactionary forces to make Ireland into a modern state. (Now all they have to do is fix the crippling deficit)
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Whilst we were there last year there was a news report about a priest who'd done a runner from his US parish after being accused of abusing kids and back to the homeland and was being protected by a bishop there...
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>>A little bit of hyperbole there, RR
I was in digs with a Catholic from NI, in 1971-2. Although he to loathed and detested the church, he used to accept the termly invitations to tea from the Catholic chaplain of the university, which he looked forward to with obvious dislike.
I said he should should decline the invitations. "You don't know the priest at home" was the answer.
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>> A little bit of hyperbole there, RR, but the Catholic Church did have significant influence
>> in the Republic.
>>
>>
They had more than influence, the Garda wouldn't touch anything involving a priest with a bargepole and no government would dare introduce legislation which the church opposed.
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>> .... no government would dare introduce legislation which the church opposed.
>>
The Church opposed Divorce and Contraception, and yet they have both in the Republic. Popular movements and pressure on the legislature achieved these social gains, often with referendums to legitimise the changes in the law.
I am not an apologist for the Roman Catholic church. Far from it. It was grossly unpleasant in Ireland (and elsewhere) and guilty of many, many crimes, but to compare it with the Nazis is ludicrous, quite frankly. (Especially in post war Ireland).
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What about the thousands of women that had to come to the UK for abortions - sometimes unwanted pregnancies as a result of rape.
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.>> What about the thousands of women that had to come to the UK for abortions
>> - sometimes unwanted pregnancies as a result of rape.
>>
It was appalling. I condemn it. However, it in no way negates the point that I am making. Read what I wrote again.
QUOTE
I am not an apologist for the Roman Catholic church. Far from it. It was grossly unpleasant in Ireland (and elsewhere) and guilty of many, many crimes, but to compare it with the Nazis is ludicrous, quite frankly. (Especially in post war Ireland).
END-QUOTE
No-one would suggest that this is anything other than condemnation of the Catholic Church!
The Nazis were an order of magnitude more evil than the Catholic Church in post-war Ireland. Anyone who doesn't think this has not studied the Nazis and what they did. (I don't blame anyone who hasn't - it takes a strong stomach). Try reading "The Theory and Practice of Hell" by Eugene Kogon as a starting point.
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>> The Church opposed Divorce and Contraception, and yet they have both in the Republic. Popular movements and pressure on the legislature achieved these social gains, often with referendums to legitimise the changes in the law.
>>
>> I am not an apologist for the Roman Catholic church. Far from it. It was
>> grossly unpleasant in Ireland (and elsewhere) and guilty of many, many crimes, but to compare
>> it with the Nazis is ludicrous, quite frankly. (Especially in post war Ireland).
>>
>>
>>
The church in Ireland bitterly opposed every shred of sexual libralisation that was introduced, it was only when changing public attitudes freed the government to pass the relevant laws that reforms (though much more limited than we enjoy here) were introduced.
I would happily compare the Catholic church with the Nazis, the fact that they didn't carry out the atrocities attributed to the latter doesn't alter the fact that their doctrine was intolerant oppression of the population with no room for dissent.
Unfortunately, as Catholicism diminishes in power and influence, Islam grows.
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>> Unfortunately, as Catholicism diminishes
It seems to be doing alright brain washing people in Africa and South America.
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And the Chief Exec saying to the said people that the use of condoms is a sin and won't stop HIV - the man is either out of touch with reality, a prize idiot or a very bad liar.
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>> I developed a deep loathing of nuns in that time and for the first few years in England when I had them as school teachers.
Yeah, a dumb old Irish nun can be pretty heavy going and nasty with it. I did come across one or two of those. But better ones too.
Anyway, 'deep loathing' is one thing and the idea that the Catholic Church is riddled with nonces is another.
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What about the Magdalene Workhouses - 30000 women effectively enslaved by a Church which has a facade of Christianity - that veneer must be paper thin at best....
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>> What about the Magdalene Workhouses - 30000 women effectively enslaved by a Church which has a facade of Christianity - that veneer must be paper thin at best....
>>
And talk to anybody who had to put up with the "Christian" Brothers.
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>> What about the Magdalene Workhouses - 30000 women effectively enslaved
Over how many years, with the full collusion of the Irish government? People these days have such a pitiful sense of history. The Catholic Church grew old in a world far harsher, unimaginably more brutal and dangerous, than the one we know. Only in the last century and a half have humans in rich countries been gradually relieved of the worst infectious diseases and from physical pain, and learned to expect job security and a tolerable place to live.
The church is what it is. Whistle-blowing is big at the moment and it's been getting its share. Perhaps it's even in terminal decline - I sometimes think so. What it isn't though is the caricature that has been sketched here, in part by people who must actually know better.
Of course people have a right to get things wrong, to huff and puff indignantly and generalize from a few tabloid cases. Same with some of the teaching orders. Got a friend who suffered the Christian Brothers and they did sound a bit much. But even the Jesuits and Benedictines could be strict, just like countless civilian schools and teachers.
There's another way of looking at all this. For a long time people in the West belonged to God, and thus to the Church which ordered their lives. Then for a much shorter time they belonged to the State which could use them for wars of conquest and rapid capitalist development. Now, for about the last ten minutes, they have come to imagine that they own themselves and are in a high and chaotic state of excitement about it, like a lot of headless chickens. May come out all right but looks a bit worrying to me.
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Or perhaps the Church is the entity that has been dragged kicking and screaming into the 19th Century, always 200 yrs behind what the population and their rulers desired.
The Church wants the status quo. Always.
When it can't get it, and knows it can't get it, it tries to nullify change by offering it's 'moral guidance.'
Why all this anti-gay rubbish when it has been known for generation that the priesthood has a greater-than-proportional share of homosexuals within it?
By the time I'm in the grave I expect the Catholic church will at least be allowing its priests to marry.
I doubt they'll be allowed to marry each other until after my children are gone.
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>> it has been known for generation that the priesthood
>> has a greater-than-proportional share of homosexuals within it?
>>
>> By the time I'm in the grave I expect the Catholic church will at least
>> be allowing its priests to marry.
>>
How will that help? You are not about to suggest that removing temptations and allowing them to marry will "cure" them, are you?
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Am I correct in my understanding that the Roman Catholic Church has not always forbade its priests to marry - that it was adopted in medieval times to prevent nepotism ?
I further understand that a married Anglican priest who converts to Catholicism can remain both as a priest and be married ?
So, (my) logic suggests that allowing priests to marry is not a great theological step ? However, I do not claim any particular understanding of these matters.
As to the suggestion that the Catholic priesthood has a higher percentage of homosexuals than other walks of life, I'm not sure how relevant this is given that behavioral standards are surely not a facet of a person's sexual orientation ?
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>> that it was adopted in medieval times to prevent nepotism
>> ?
>>
That didn't work either. Nepotism literally means favouritism of nephews, a euphemism for the illegitimate sons of popes being promoted to high office.
Last edited by: Cliff Pope on Wed 27 Feb 13 at 13:29
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>> That didn't work either. Nepotism literally means favouritism of nephews, a euphemism for the illegitimate
>> sons of popes being promoted to high office.
>>
For example, Pope Alexander Borgia making his son Cesare a Cardinal. (Cesare was only 18 at the time, BTW.)
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>> For example, Pope Alexander Borgia making his son Cesare a Cardinal. (Cesare was only 18
>> at the time, BTW.)
Is that why all new popes have to be 81?
Honestly the amount of hoo ha and adulation thrown at the popes feet makes me want to vomit. I cant think of a more corrupt, manipulative and immoral organisation anywhere on earth.
Well I can think of plenty similar, but none of them try and paint a disguise of christianity over themselves.
Last edited by: Zero on Wed 27 Feb 13 at 14:25
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With you there, Z. With you there.
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>> I cant think of a more corrupt, manipulative and immoral organisation anywhere on earth.
>> Well I can think of plenty similar, but none of them try and paint a disguise of christianity over themselves.
So, is Christianity a childish mediaeval superstition foisted on the ignorant by that corrupt, immoral and manipulative organization the church, or is it something essentially good and valuable used as a disguise by the church, the US and British governments and other corrupt, immoral and manipulative organizations? There seems to be a contradiction here struggling for expression.
In fact this thread seems to have become a resort for the confused and feeble-minded. There's nothing wrong with an honest simple believer or non-believer in any religion but all this smug, half-smart, half-informed hostile wittering makes me want to vomit.
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The Church should be strong enough to take some flak AC - I come from a religious background, but don't particularly practice, although, perhaps I pay lip-service to its traditions
in some or even many ways. I find the ridiculing of religion (whoever's) quite offensive (apart from the Book of Mormon :-) ). But I find the hypocrisy that surrounds the activities of any Church particularly irritating.
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>> The Church should be strong enough to take some flak
Indeed. It's taken a lot in its time, and deserved it too.
Hypocrisy is an interesting issue, not as simple in religion or politics as people think. It is necessary in some contexts and we as a nation are renowned for it.
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We're not the only ones by a long chalk.
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>> We're not the only ones by a long chalk.
No, you're talking about something negative, a vice. I am talking about hypocrisy as a virtue. It is hardly an exaggeration to say that the British are actually admired, if reluctantly, for their hypocrisy. But these are fairly subtle matters, deniable by definition. I wouldn't want to exaggerate.
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Must be my Methodist upbringing AC
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>> In fact this thread seems to have become a resort for the confused and feeble-minded.
>> There's nothing wrong with an honest simple believer or non-believer in any religion but all
>> this smug, half-smart, half-informed hostile wittering makes me want to vomit.
>>
That's an astonishingly accurate description of the people who tried to force their religious views down my throat during my schooldays.
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>> an astonishingly accurate description of the people who tried to force their religious views down my throat during my schooldays.
I wasn't really talking about you RR. You have some experience to go by at least, not just tabloid stories writ large and repeated ad infinitum.
I feel it's probably time for you to recover from the shock and indignation though. There's more to this sort of thing than forcing religious views down people's throats. There's a big picture. There are the millions of believers. It's political, grown-up stuff. Never mind how you feel: try to assess the way things are, whether you like it or not.
A propos, when I referred above to people imagining they own their own bodies now, and are over-excited about it, what I meant really was that the way it looks to me 'public opinion' supercharged by malign media forces could just conceivably kick the major religions and the state to bits before coming up with viable substitutes. There is nothing whatsoever to be said for bringing the whole shebang crashing down. That is always ghastly for all but a very few. What is always needed is a more or less controllable transition.
I grew out of revolutionary politics years ago.
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>> I grew out of revolutionary politics years ago.
>>
Yeah, you've well chilled, man. You're even polite to right wingers now...can you believe that?
;-)
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Oh dear!
Quite a few nauseous folk around. Watch out for my suede shoes.
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>> Something very, very wrong and possibly evil in the Catholic church.
>>
I suspect Pope Benedict effectively found himself incapable and too old to be able to confront what seems to be an ingrained way of life for some clergy - supported by their seniors.
The whiffs of scandal in Italy suggest the secret reports commissioned by the Pope have revealed large scale sex scandals at Cardinal level
More to come I suspect...
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Everybody is at it.A Liberal MP touching up females at the dining table. (Allegedly)
He should have been enjoying his pork chop.
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> touching up females at the dining table. (Allegedly)
>>
Lot of shrinking violet modern feminists these days considering how equality has moved on, i bet our very own resident trucker lady knew how to sort out the unwanted wandering hand brigade without needing an army of diversity co-ordinators or significant compo either, often years after the event.
Poke in eye with sharp toothpick?
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I was sexually assaulted two weeks ago whilst paying at the entrance for my yoga class.
A very nice young(er) lady pinched me on the rear.
She apologised the next week.
I must be growing old.....
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I am what would be described as a lapsed catholic.
Brought up in a staunch catholic household but I have issues with some of their teachings but I stilll find myself defending it from outside ! Like when the Pope came to Glasgow, I didnt go along. But found myself defending him from work colleagues etc!
Ironically, i have a very close friend who is a priest and hearing from him how the diocese and hierarchy works is probably the final straw for me!
No other business, no other public body would be able to work this way with what is effectively the publics money.
Re the claims against the Cardinal, no idea what they are. But alongside Savile etc,I really worry about where our society is going. We already have drivers using dashboard cams to protect them from false accusations, accidents etc.
How do you defend yoursdlf against something that happened 20 or 30 years ago? With Saville, the number of claims coming forward back up the bigger picture.
If I was a celeb of any standing, I would be videoing and taking statements from every conquest, meeting etc because someone can come out in 20 years time, make accusations. If the law is the same as now, the accuser can remain anonymous but defendant gets named and slaughtered.
Worrying times. Very.
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I have had an increasing interest in Quakerism of late - it may be somewhere to park my shaky faith.
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I had you down as a Pastafarian Rob.
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Organized religion what bothers me not faith.Wife is Catholic I encouraged her to go back to church if that is what she wanted.I was brought up in a Protestant household.Sister and brother don't care for religion who knows maybe they are right.
I am clever enough to know that I know very little who has the answers.?
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They like oats don't they? But you get wine in church I'm told. Bit of a no brainer if I felt the need...
:-)
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Very tolerant and non-judgmental lot the Quakers, in my experience. Both of the world, and of each other. They don't really have a consensus on whether they are strictly Christian or not, but it doesn't bother them - anybody else would be having a schism over it.
They are an endangered species though.
I always liked the absence of creed, bells, smells and candles. Perhaps more people like a bit of ritual.
A plus is that they don't disapprove of alcohol in moderation.
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They have a Meeting House in Bangor. May pop over one day for a look. I had a colleague who was brought up a Quaker - he was ex-Royal Marine (not a mean achievement in itself) - was a medic though so found a way to deal with his creed.
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>> They have a Meeting House in Bangor. May pop over one day for a look.
>> I had a colleague who was brought up a Quaker - he was ex-Royal Marine
>> (not a mean achievement in itself) - was a medic though so found a way
>> to deal with his creed.
Being picky, because you probably weren't using the word creed in the formal sense, but there's an important related point, he found a way to fit with his own belief.
Quakers don't have a creed in the sense of a set of beliefs that you have to adopt, one of the things I like - they always seemed to me to have thought it through.
A creed to them is a second hand set of beliefs - you can't decide to believe something because somebody tells you it's true, you either do or you don't. Not having priests fits with that.
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I was struggling to find the right word there - They do seem to be the thinking man's (or woman's) creed/religion/belief system or whatever....I like their views about stuff and as you say seem to mould their stance on stuff around their lives. I learnt a lot about them over recent years - a lot of the Welsh ones were bullied out of the country and went to settle in other parts like Patagonia, I rather like the underdog as I said before.
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Congregationalists seem pretty cool to me Rob, and not so far from your Methody roots... my grandfather was a pillar of his chapel... herself's family have a lot of Quaker genealogy, perceptible to a sharp eye... they seem cool too. And I was very impressed by the German Lutherans I met in Tanzania, and a Danish novelist who had much to say on Danish Lutheranism.
I speak as a long-time but not fanatical atheist of course.
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I was always impressed by the Huguenots (not their anti Semite views though) - maybe they deserve more investigation. They were somewhat persecuted by the Catholics in France though - maybe it's an underdog thing.
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I think there are Eastern Orthodox churches in Manchester. If I were so minded to be involved in an organised church, it would be like Catholicism without the Roman element. And they do not have the Gregory VII edicts, (1074 or thereabouts) and the later Concordat of Worms preventing clerical marriage:)
Last edited by: NIL on Wed 27 Feb 13 at 21:43
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We call them Hugenoten.I'm not sure if they where antisemetic.Calvijn was their teacher who followed Erasmus teaching from Rotterdam.Their religion was very strict but church members choice the leaders.
Lots of Huguenots escaped to the Netherlands and brought skill and wealth.Amsterdam became one of the richest city in the world due to the Huguenots.They wher percsecuted by the Catholics,Calvinisme Calvijn had a different vieuw than the pope how to interact and believe in a God.
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>> Hugenoten.I'm not sure if they where antisemetic.
All Christian sects big and small were anti-Semitic until recently, more or less by definition. The nonconformist sects in the 19th century would have broken that mould, but not all of them. It would have depended to an extent on where the sect was implanted and what its members did for a living I guess.
Very obviously, the Nazi holocaust led to a general sea-change making overt anti-Semitism unacceptable in decent circles (it is still to be found here and there however).
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>> Very obviously, the Nazi holocaust led to a general sea-change making overt anti-Semitism unacceptable in
>> decent circles (it is still to be found here and there however).
>>
>>
>>
At football matches where Spurs play..
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Pope to Resign... - rtj70
