Funniest cartoon I've seen for years -
www.telegraph.co.uk/news/matt/
|
I shall genuinely applaud Cameron if this actually REDUCES the amount that the UK pays into the auditor qualified accounts of the EU.
(In most lending decisions an auditor's qualification of an organisation's accounts is a BIG red warning light!)
Last edited by: Roger on Fri 8 Feb 13 at 12:08
|
|
I dont think it is going to happen Roger, Nick Robinson is suggesting that our contribution will still increase - its all PR, nothing more sadly.
|
|
Bit like Osborne's "cuts" - a reduction in the rate of increase, probably
|
Looking like the classic politicians fudge.
Apparently the overall EU budget will be cut; this will enable DC to return home covered in glory claiming that he got his way and they agreed cuts in the budget.
However, it looks like the share that the UK, Germany and France pay will be increased, thus DC can claim the budget has been cut but in reality we will still end paying more.
Hollande will be able to return to France and claim that he has agreed to pay a little more but France is a winner because he's still managed to protect the CAP, any reduction in CAP payments would be political suicide for a Frenchman.
Merkel will be able to play the head stateswoman role, which will go down well in Germany.
The other 24 heads of state will be able to go home and say that they managed to get away with a minimal reduction in budget but have managed to get the three 'rich' countries to take a bigger share of the budget payments so it was worth it and the proceeds reduction spread amongst them is minimal and offset by the reduction in their share of the contributions.
Everyone comes out smelling of roses, or at least not smelling of brown sticky stuff, and the gravy train rolls on but slightly slower.
Everyone poses for big smiley photos, go off and have a very nice meal all washed down with some very fine wines before travelling home, DC to Croydon aerodrome where he will get off the plane waving a piece of paper; ooops, sorry, getting confused with another PM who got screwed by the Germans.
|
>> Everyone poses for big smiley photos, go off and have a very nice meal all
>> washed down with some very fine wines before travelling home, DC to Croydon aerodrome where
>> he will get off the plane waving a piece of paper; ooops, sorry, getting confused
>> with another PM who got screwed by the Germans.
>>
It wasn't Croydon, it was Heston.
|
>> Hollande will be able to return to France and claim that he has agreed to
>> pay a little more but France is a winner because he's still managed to protect
>> the CAP, any reduction in CAP payments would be political suicide for a Frenchman.
Alas not, Hollande is being pilloried in the French press, claiming he is the biggest loser. CAP is still the major expenditure, but its been cut. ( in real terms)
Cameroon has played a good hand, given the cards he had.
|
>> Cameroon has played a good hand, given the cards he had.
>>
I think he's doing a good job generally, when you think of the shackles he has. No outright majority. Bedfellows with the Lib Dems, which irritates the hell out of the Right of his party.
Same with Clegg.
At least they are making a coalition work and have achieved a few things.
I'm surprised the whole kaboosh didn't come tumbling down within 3 months, so credit where credit is due.
|
>>
>> >> Hollande will be able to return to France and claim that he has agreed
>> to
>> >> pay a little more but France is a winner because he's still managed to
>> protect
>> >> the CAP, any reduction in CAP payments would be political suicide for a Frenchman.
>>
>> Alas not, Hollande is being pilloried in the French press, claiming he is the biggest
>> loser. CAP is still the major expenditure, but its been cut. ( in real terms)
>>
Hollande may be getting a kicking but the CAP still exists even if it has had some small cuts, sadly until the CAP is on the table, and probably our 'rebate' then the EU can not be regarded as being serious about any reform.
I'm afraid I can't take the EU finances as anything other than a joke since no one can remember when they last actually managed to get a set of annual accounts signed off.
Last edited by: Cockle on Fri 8 Feb 13 at 19:15
|
Now we hear that there will be a secret vote on this budget, so no one, including their own governments, will know how individual MEPs voted.
I wonder why?
|
We need every penny at the moment and northen country's are in look after number one mode.
Iam afraid the Greeks Italians Portugese and Spanish have to learn to balance their own books if not it's sink or swim.
|
>> Iam afraid the Greeks Italians Portugese and Spanish have to learn to balance their own
>> books if not it's sink or swim.
>>
Isn't it the GIPSIes?
Greeks, Italians, Portugese, Irish and Spanish. No?
|
|
I thought they were the PIIGS.
|
>> I thought they were the PIIGS.
>>
tinyurl.com/apj5rab
|
|
Struggling to get a complimentary acronym out of that lot!
|
>> I'm afraid I can't take the EU finances as anything other than a joke since
>> no one can remember when they last actually managed to get a set of annual
>> accounts signed off.
>>
Time to put that myth to bed. The EU's accounts are signed off every year. They can account for every cent.
From this site: jebadel.com/visionsoftomorrow/?p=10
QUOTE
1. Myth: The European Union’s accounts are not audited, or, the Auditors refuse to sign off on the accounts.
1. Fact: The Auditors actually audit the European Union’s accounts every year, and the funds spent by the EU itself are signed off. However the Auditors annually criticise the member state governments for not providing information on how they spent the money given to them by the European Union .
END-QUOTE
|
I think the last paragraph of this puts an interesting perspective on things.....
tinyurl.com/bxlu7vn
If I may quote: The EU budget accounts of just 1% of the EU’s national wealth, and 2% of governments’ spending. It matters most to smaller, poorer countries for whom EU transfers offer a real economic boost (more than 4% of GDP for some). But for the big, wealthy states that are the main contestants in the budget fight, the net contributions amount to about 0.2%-0.3% of GDP
Every little helps I guess, but this is perhaps more of a symbolic victory than anything else ?
|
It's Merkel giving Cameron, a committed Europhile, a paper victory to wave at the British people.
I just wonder what he had to promise in return.
The result is a rotten deal for the UK as we are more than likely to see our contribution increase in any event. We are paying over £50 million per day now.
The EU budget is not a done deal though, as it still has to be ratified by MEPs who, it seems, are being allowed as secret vote, so their electorate won't know who has voted to keep the gravy train rolling on.
|
Need to check my maths / sources but I think the UK's GDP runs at around GBP 380,000 Million a quarter ? Lets assume 92 days in a quarter: UK PLC makes GBP 4,130 Million a day.
Making the GBP 50 Million EU funding (not sure if this is net of the rebate) around 1.2% of GDP which is in line with the Economist's comments I'd suggest.
Would I be right in thinking that the current EU budget arguments are about low-value percentages of this (already numerically small) percentage and so are actually very small in comparison to actual GDP ?
Last edited by: idle_chatterer on Mon 11 Feb 13 at 11:12
|
>>The result is a rotten deal for the UK ......
So he would have been better to agree an increase?
|
|
He hasnt secured anything yet, just a few good headlines. Wait and see what the eurofanatics do with it in their parliament before ordering the balloons.
|
Strangely though if he had agreed a budget increase all the UKIP supporters would be in here baying about the outrage.
Or would they still say "oh no, we need to wait and see"?
The one good thing about UKIP is that its not necessary to put in any effort to show them as naive and one trick.
BTW, welcome back. How was the flounce?
Last edited by: R.P. on Tue 12 Feb 13 at 07:22
|
If we do leave the EU, what will Farange do when UK has its I, he will have no P for party.
|
So much for Cameron's huge success: UK only EU country to see EU payments to Brussels increase under Budget Cut.
(From UKIP website - so far no finite figures given - for the benefit of UKIP knockers!)
|
Surely UKIP should wait and see? I'd heard it somewhere that the deal wasn't done yet, that it still needed to be ratified.
Or is that only when it suits?
|
>>If we do leave the EU, what will Farange do when UK has its I, he will have no P for party.<<
Labour abandoned the labouring classes, despite their name. The Conservatives stopped being conservative, despite their name. Volkwagen used to mean peoples car, although many people cant afford one now. And yet they all exist trading on the past. Its just a name.
|
So he will just become a back bench MP? If elected? for a party with no name? if they have a majority? What do you do, vote for the blank line on the slip?
Last edited by: Zero on Mon 11 Feb 13 at 20:20
|
|
Why are you fixated about there being no name? If UKIP managed to steer the UK to independance Nigel will be making sure everyone knows it for all of eternity, so they simply stop being the party who want independance to the one which helped it to happen, for which they will claim credit going forward.
|
I am not being fixated about no name, your are the one who was fixated by the name. I was talking about no reason for existence. IE no mission.
|
>>I am not being fixated about no name, your are the one who was fixated by the name. I was talking about no reason for existence. IE no mission.<<
It does have a mission, the EU is nowhere near the top of why people vote UKIP. It is social conservatism with a dash of libertarianism/liberalism. You can argue about the exact composition but that is the general direction of domestic policy.
|
>> It is social conservatism with a dash of libertarianism/liberalism.
I doubt you even know what that means in the real world.
|
>>I doubt you even know what that means in the real world.<<
Bless you. Scio me nihil scire. Parva leves capiunt animas.
|
Know nothing?
Tu es stultior quam asinus.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Mon 11 Feb 13 at 21:00
|
>> >> It is social conservatism with a dash of libertarianism/liberalism
Ah.. a nationalistic, society-focussed party for the workers of the country.
Never seen that before :-)
|
>>Ah.. a nationalistic, society-focussed party for the workers of the country.
Never seen that before :-) <<
Well they were socialists, not conservatives, thats why its called National Socialism :-)
|
>> >>I am not being fixated about no name, your are the one who was fixated
>> by the name. I was talking about no reason for existence. IE no mission.<<
>>
>> It does have a mission, the EU is nowhere near the top of why people
>> vote UKIP. It is social conservatism with a dash of libertarianism/liberalism. You can argue about
>> the exact composition but that is the general direction of domestic policy.
Err no. The UKIP manifesto is remarkably wooly and empty on that.
|
>>Err no. The UKIP manifesto is remarkably wooly and empty on that <<
Manifesto is out of date, policy for 2015 is still evolving, call back in 2 years time, Labour dont have any policies at all :-)
|
So they have no manifesto but we shouldn't worry, they'll have one in two years time?
[giggling]
|
>>So they have no manifesto but we shouldn't worry, they'll have one in two years time?<<
Labour dont have one, they dont even have an economic policy and they ran the country for 13 years. Is the low hanging fruit all you can manage? Go over to Labourlist and make your point there, not that you would dare :-)
|
Much as I disagree with much of the philosophy and many of the policies of the Labour Party, they are at least a real party who have a full set.
Not an empty-headed bunch of idiots who have no manifesto, won't have one for two years, have no opinions on anything other than immigration is the root of all evil and cannot even explain that coherently.
And if I went over to Labourlist and made my point, that UKIP is worthless, what would they do? Hurt me? be mean to me? disagree with me strongly? Gosh, scary.
|
>>Much as I disagree with much of the philosophy and many of the policies of the Labour Party, they are at least a real party who have a full set.<<
Please do point me towards the cuts that Labour identified to meet their defecit reduction plan?
You would be easier to take seriously if you went through the 2010 UKIP manifesto and actually offered a critique of each policy rather than just name calling, but I guess thats all you have. In that sense you are perfect for the Labour policy dept.
|
>>You would be easier to take seriously if you went through the 2010 UKIP manifesto
Really? I had heard that it was out of date and that one should wait for a couple of years.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Tue 12 Feb 13 at 00:05
|
>>Really? I had heard that it was out of date and that one should wait for a couple of years.<<
Out of date information hasnt stopped you before. Its an open goal, but then if you did find a sensible policy or infact more than one policy at all, you would have to retract what you have said before and make more intelligent criticisms, so I wont hold my breath.
|
>>but then if you did find a sensible policy
Well, you hold your breath while I'm looking, but I suspect it'd take a while to find one....
I'd be more worried about UKIP and the disruption it could cause if they didn't have such ridiculous supporters illustrating its short-comings far more effectively than I could point them out.
|
>>I'd be more worried about UKIP and the disruption it could cause if they didn't have such ridiculous supporters illustrating its short-comings far more effectively than I could point them out.<<
People are who they are and UKIP supporters are a massively varied bunch from both the left and right, usually with ideals that fall outside the very narrow 3 party solutions.
These disagreements are rather pointless in a way because you dont care why a person may feel the way they do, only that you disagree with it and they must be ridiculed into silence, so you are ill-equipped to understand. Your intolerance of mental health sufferers points to a general intolerance of people different from yourself, although your self-image might visualise the opposite.
While I am sure you hold different views from Nick Griffin, your fundamental approach to people who are different to yourself is the same. I wouldnt waste any more of your time on it, it is beyond your capabilities.
|
Must you keep harping back to Mental Health?
I know you claim to have issues, you know I think you lie.
Neither have anything to do with this thread.
|
If you think he has mental health issues Mark.Be the bigger man and let it be.
I don't like extreem politicis nothing is black and white.Geert Wilders played on race and immigration it backfired on him in the last general election over there.
|
>>If you think he has mental health issues Mark.Be the bigger man and let it be.
Fair point.
|
>>Neither have anything to do with this thread.<<
Actually many of your contributions are tainted by a fundamental intolerance of people different from yourself and it happens to manifest in a rather hateful way when politics or mental health are mentioned.
Nobody who isnt a qualified mental health professional can make an accurate judgement on whether Im crazy or not - the idea that you think you can is laughable and says more about your ego than any knowledge of the matter.
|
According to the BBC we will pay more than before, so a real success by any measure for a euronut. A technical cut but the UK still pays more, so why would anyone who objects to the expenditure be happy about that? The eurofanatics are just annoyed someone noticed.
>>BTW, welcome back. How was the flounce? <<
I never left, just had to put a lid on the idiot at the back for a week.
|
Oh, I thought you were saying if I didn't stop you'd leave. And I didn't stop. I tend not to.
My mistake.
|
|
Is there a simple pie chart somewhere that shows, as a proportion of govt spend, (a) our gross contribution to EU and (b) the net after receipts from CAP, remote areas budget etc?
|
|
If anyone has it Bromp, it will either be the Guardian or the BBC.
|
This is a start... (albeit old)
news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/8036097.stm
Last edited by: No FM2R on Mon 11 Feb 13 at 20:50
|
Despite all the sneering and small-minded comments by our resident left-leaning members, just remember that without UKIP there would not even be a debate about Britain's membership of the E.U, neither would there be reasonable debate about the uncontrolled immigration from which we are and will continue, to suffer.
It is by no means cut and dried that the UK receives value for its fifty million (borrowed) quid a a day heading to Brussels, despite the scaremongers saying "we're all doomed" if we leave.
This country does need immigrants, but it should be our choice whom we admit.
Try emigrating to the USA, Canada, Australia or New Zealand without either a job agreed, or sufficient funds to be wholly self-supporting and see how far you get.
UKIP has good policies in many areas and they are evolving as circumstances change.
At the last general election, UKIP received just under a million votes, with no seats: the Green party with 285,000 votes won a seat - it's the first past the post system which rewards a concentration of votes, rather than total numbers.
Be that as it may, we have the system and will live with it, but for folk to sneer at UKIP as a bunch of loons with little support should note the figures!
In the meantime UKIP will continue to field candidates at every opportunity.
The party is still growing and now stands at over 22,000 paid up members, a year on year increase of 20%.
Not many other political parties are increasing their membership at prsent!
|
>>Despite all the sneering and small-minded comments by our resident left-leaning members
Oh, is *that* why the clown keeps going on about the Labour party! I am not left-leaning. As far as I am concerned Genghis Khan was a liberal and Margaret Thatcher was a commie.
>> just remember that without UKIP there would not even be a debate about Britain's membership of the E.U,
Are you serious? Those discussions have been going on for far longer than Nige has been rattling around at the forefront..
|
>>Are you serious? Those discussions have been going on for far longer than Nige has been rattling around at the forefront..<<
And yet the Cameron only acted when UKIP polling started to worry him, or rather backbench MPs were worried about their seats in 2015. For someone so big in the mouth, you dont seem to read much, the internal issues over UKIP polling has been going on for a while now, it is well documented on Tory blogs/websites. Do try and keep up.
|
>> And yet the Cameron only acted when UKIP polling started to worry him, or rather
>> backbench MPs were worried about their seats in 2015. For someone so big in the
>> mouth, you dont seem to read much, the internal issues over UKIP polling has been
>> going on for a while now, it is well documented on Tory blogs/websites. Do try
>> and keep up.
The Conservatives tore themselves apart over Europe after 1992. In reality it's a split that has been in the party since Heath and before. Remember Neil Marten, Powell etc?
Cameron seemed, for a time, to have put a lid on it but the pressure is uncontainable and would have burst out UKIP or not.
|
>>Remember Neil Marten, Powell etc? <<
I was born in the Thatcher era :-)
>>Cameron seemed, for a time, to have put a lid on it but the pressure is uncontainable and would have burst out UKIP or not. <<
I think actually UKIP were just in the right place, right time as the Eurozoen crisis has given far more focus on the inner workings of the EU and the people who run it, much the same political elite that preside over the Eurozone issues.
The pressure has come because Cameron has berated the eurosceptics in his party relentlessly and he was on thin ice with them on many issues, so the rise in UKIP polling which politically is closer to some Tory eurosceptics than Cameron is has emboldened them. They are unlikely to remain quiet for that long but will be for the time being so Cameron feels the love for moving their direction a little, but there are several issues brewing which mean it will be short lived.
The poll bounce that Cameron got for the referendum at the expense of UKIP has evaporated, but it was always predicted to be soft, so those backbenchers in marginals will be back for more.
|
>> Despite all the sneering and small-minded comments by our resident left-leaning members, just remember that
>> without UKIP there would not even be a debate about Britain's membership of the E.U,
So ever since ( and before) the referendum has there not been almost constant reports in the press about the rebellious wing of the tory party? Has the question about our membership not debated in depth by all views int he press before UKIP? Do you even know (without looking at wiki) where Ferrage came from before he went on to form his party?
And you have still never answered how you reconcile moving round Europe to live as it suits you, and being against "uncontrolled immigration"
Frankly you are not an asset to UKIP, merely a constant reminder of how ill-informed and naive its membership is.
Oh and BTW, I have never voted for a left leaning party in my life.
Last edited by: Zero on Tue 12 Feb 13 at 09:13
|
I thought I had, but to reply to your question - we moved to Spain, bought a home for cash, were fully self-supporting during our time there, paid all relevant Spanish taxes and took not a centimo from the Spanish state.
Our health care was UK funded, by UK funds sent to the Spanish Social Security system, as we had properly signed out of the NHS system in the UK and were not only registered as resident with the Spanish state, (with an identity card!) but were also fiscally resident.
During our time there we contributed, purely on an inward to Spain cash flow basis, a considerable sum of money.
That is what I say should be a main criterion for immigration to the UK i.e a job guarantee for a needed speciality, or if not actively working, self sufficiency financially.
|
|
Exacly, none of which would have been possible without the EU.
|
|
Do Spain ban all non-EU immigration then?
|
|
In the way roger went there with those benefits at his age at the time? Yes.
|
|
Spain allowes non EU immigration I don't know any EU country who dont.
|
Spain does not ban non-EU immigration, but has requirements of self-support and health insurance for non-EU members.
AFAIK NO social security payments are available to individuals not registered with the Seguridad Social.
Again, had we as UK citizens, fallen on hard times there would have been no help available as we did not pay social security, being pensioners.
There is no automatic right to social housing or assistance to those who have not contributed.
(That is to the best of my recollection, so as they say "E & OE")
|
Hi all,
As you know I am only an infrequent contributor, but do read stuff on here most days. You guys are an amusing read in work breaks.
One of the things that sets this place apart from others is the gentlemanly attitude and respectful tone of posters.
Whilst this topic is one of those 'hot' ones - 'religion, politics and sex', where feelings are sincere on all sides and tend to run high, could I please, respectfully, ask that all at least try to maintain the pleasant atmosphere.
At the least can we make it a rule to never do any name calling - even if we silently mutter such things to ourself to say as much just as we press the "Post" button. By this I exclude much of the typical banter where the recipient definitely knows the intended meaning isn't detrimental and light-hearted fun is the only objective.
I know it's a challenge to hold strong opinions and argue in a courteous, respectful manner, but on here I know you all like a challenge.
.. gets off bar stool..
|
You saved me the lecture......:)
Pat
|
Cameron in EU Budget Cut Debate - Roger.
