The delights of a "period" property - ie old and needs stuff doing all the time.
Water leak through bedroom ceiling in all the rain over Christmas. Emergency fix the next day, "temporary sort out", he said, cost me a couple of hundred. I asked for a quote for proper repair - there is no lead flashing around the chimneys, and the mortar, I'm told, has/had cracking. This is a man recommended by someone I do trust.
Quote comes in for lead flashing, two chimneys, which involves scaffolding - £3500.
Ow.
Next quote, nice man, but unknown company other than they advertise locally, quote for lead flashing, involves scaffolding - £3500.
I can't keep getting quotes forever, but that's a lot of dosh to me! Neither will use a ladder ("health and safety mate"). I don't even know if that's fair enough or unreasonable, and that's half the cost alone.
A quick internet search yields figures less than that, but not round here, and not very recently. Anyone got any experience of this?
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Actually that's not bad including scaffolding, and I am not surprised they refuse to use a ladder.
My house is 3 stories, so it was a worse situation. In that case hiring a cherry-picker for about 4 hours was considerably cheaper.
Equally, can you get to the roof/chimney join from inside? Because whilst flashing is one way, there are other ways of repairing from inside.
It is unlikely that the join has gone from watertight to gushing water in one go, it must have deteriorated over a period of time. Equally, depending on the roof and age, they can cope with a level of dampness. Depends on a number of things.
I presume you've checked the situation with your insurance?
I'd say you need to get a proper roofer in. A decent roofer will have experience of this, and should also know about cherry picker hire.
If you're in the North Oxon, Northants area then drop me an email, I can recommend someone.
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Thanks for the steer and clarification it's not entirely mad pricing, Mark.
I'm not in those areas, but thanks anyway. Insurance - nah, it wasn't a specific "storm", just heavy rain for a few days, and as its clearly general slow deterioration it won't be covered.
Oh well, that's just the next three years holidays kyboshed, or at least severely curtailed. C'est la vie.
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when i worked in the building trade i heard of an old dear who had paid some dodgepot builders to repoint her chimney
what the scrotes actually did was wrap brick effect wallpaper around the chimney so it looked better than new from the ground
whether its true or not i dont know but i wouldnt put it past some folk
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Sounds about right. Back in about 2005, my roof sprang a leak; local roofer said it would be either a couple of hundred to do a temp repair, repeatable every year thereafter when the next bit went, or I could bite the bullet and have the whole lot done for £5600.
It proved to be money well spent, although ironically that particular roof section has now been done again due to the fire I had in August.
Roofers will no longer just "pop up a ladder" unless it's something extremely basic like one loose slate. With something like that chimney, there could well be a lot more to it than meets the eye on the initial inspection, so a wise contractor would factor that into his initial quote; it saves arguments later. As you say scaffolding adds dramatically to the cost but at least the job is done properly, and I suppose that if they're adhering to those rules it's a reasonable bet that they'll adhere to the others and do a good job. As always you get what you pay for.
As an aside, something I've learned; if you're considering having a slate-roofed property re-done, it is usually possible to re-use the existing slates but you must budget for losing one third of the total during the strip-down due to damage and faults.
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& *don't* use Spanish slate as it has a very short life.
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We had what sounds like a similar problem in our old house. Our experience might help so I'll share it.
The chimney on the old Edwardian house was letting some water in - chimney breast damp. Got our neighbour who does all sorts of building/decorating jobs and he raked out the old loose mortar and fixed it up. This seemed to fix it and it was fine for ages, dried out and we redecorated. He BTW climbed onto the roof with his ladders, walked over and tied himself to the chimney with a rope!
Many months later some water came back in. Not happy. Another neighbour recommended a roofer he knew. Again without scaffolding he went up and said it was the lead flashing and quoted to replace it- £180 total (I know lead has gone up a lot since). Seemed a bargain. He did the work and again no scaffolding. Seemed to have fixed it and then lots more water came in!
We then got some other roofers we knew of (children went to school with their children) and they had a look and said it needed repointing. Oh and scaffolding was needed. Tried to say I thought it was the lead work as the problem was worse after that but they insisted it was en excellent job and done right.... so scaffolding went up, they repointed it... and the problem was not fixed when we had heavy rain! I think the work was around £200 and the scaffolding a similar amount (total about £400). So not happy.
We got them back and again they took a long look on roof ladders. They said they could see the ridge tiles were possibly part of the problem. Evidence of water getting under the tiles and running down the felt to the chimney. So they had found something. More scaffolding at rear of house now needed for this job - health and safety. We paid for the scaffolding but not the work. So about £250 this time.
And again when we had heavy rain in the same direction.... we got water coming in! To say I was not impressed to have paid out and have more water coming in than ever.
So around this time a builder came knocking and asked if we wanted the pointing doing. As it happens it needed doing. He quoted some ridiculously low figure - he underestimated the time it would take. But he offered to also look at the chimney when they came. Took them two days longer than he quoted for the pointing - and they didn't use scaffolding.
Anyway the builder got on the roof and said water was coming in under the lead - as I suspected because the problem got worse after that was replaced. The lead work sat on the tiles and not under them... which I am told is the right way to do it. Anyway he used a tube of sealer and squirted it under the lead for a quick fix and it worked. He did quote us to replace it and said the cost of the lead was a lot more than I'd paid for the whole original lead job! We risked the can of sealer.... and it remained fine for ages.
Whether it is still fine I have no idea - we have since moved.
And on the subject of scaffolding... why is it needed for health and safety but the blokes who put it up don't even use ladders! When we had the scaffolding on the chimney only a platform around the chimney was needed for the pointing. So the roofer got up there on a ladder. There were no platforms lower down. So the scaffolding was all put up with the scaffolder at risk of falling from the top of a large 4 bed Edwardian house!
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>> The lead work sat on the tiles and not under them... which I am told is the right way to do it.
The lead flashing should be under the tiles or slates on the uphill side of the chimney, over them on the other three sides. This doesn't have to be explained. It's obvious, just as it is obvious that the flashing should be let into the chimney under a fillet of waterproof mortar.
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and dont forget the small lead rolled plugs that you wedge the flashing into the brickwork courses with before the mortar fillets otherwise the lot will slide out
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AC it was obvious to me! But not the roofer who did it or the one that came afterwards.
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>> >> The lead work sat on the tiles and not under them... which I am
>> told is the right way to do it.
>>
>> The lead flashing should be under the tiles or slates on the uphill side of
>> the chimney, over them on the other three sides. This doesn't have to be explained.
>> It's obvious, just as it is obvious that the flashing should be let into the
>> chimney under a fillet of waterproof mortar.
>>
AC my dear. You really should stick to reporting on the Notting thing Carnival. UNDER slates and OVER most tiles. (0-/:-0)
To others: Scaffolding is not expensive unless you are being mugged. There is no norm, but for most Chimney scaffolds I pay between £280.00 and £350.00. I have paid more on occasions when they have been higher or very awkward access.
If CC can post some pictures on a hosting site, preferably detailed (decent zoom lens), age of property etc. I will give impartial advice. There are some greedy people out there.
Don't be ripped off.
Last edited by: VxFan on Tue 5 Feb 13 at 01:31
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I got prices for scaffold a few years ago - it proved remarkably close to what Martin was saying - the cost didn't seem any more be it there for a week or a month - I knew a guy in the trade in another life - he seemed happy to leave it up for as long as possible....one theory was that the kit was safer wrapped round someone's gaff than in his yard. He has a another tale as well about putting scaffold up on a house that was due to be re-roofed - he duly arrived erected it at the address given by the roofer - his gang arrived and stripped the roof - the owner arrived home to find his house unexpectedly clad in scaffold and roofless - the contractor had made a mistake with the house number by one crucial digit...
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There is only ONE digit I don't want removed by mistake.....
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>> AC my dear. You really should stick to reporting on the Notting thing Carnival. UNDER slates and OVER most tiles. (0-/:-0)
And over our tiles it seems to cause a problem.... it was only after some sealer the problem was fixed. The logic in my mind must be the same as AC's... what stops the water going under the lead work over the tiles.... nothing?
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Please yourself rtj. It's your chimney. But sealant shouldn't be needed if the flashing is correctly fitted and correctly placed.
A frequent problem, caused by the price of lead perhaps, is that the flashing may not be wide enough.
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>> caused by the price of lead perhaps, is that the flashing may not be wide enough.
And of course there's no practical difference between tiles and slates. They overlay each other in a similar fashion.
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Stick to what you do best rtj. Think it through. With interlocking tiles what do you suppose supports the Lead soakers 'underneath.'
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>> & *don't* use Spanish slate as it has a very short life.
>>
There are often few alternatives. Chinese slates apparently turn white and the quality is not consistent; Welsh are prohibitively expensive, you're talking a fiver per slate second-hand! And short life or not, my slates will almost certainly still be up on that roof long after I'm gone.
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There's a lot of slate in Pembrokeshire I seem to remember. Varying from very hard and sharp - but always splittable - to completely rotten stuff you can crumble in your hand, and the strata also varying from horizontal to vertical.
Decent slate rooftiles are well worth a close look, chipped away beautifully round the edges on both sides. No wonder terracotta tiles are cheaper, lump of clay shaped over a fat girl's thigh and chucked in an oven...
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Watched a geezer last month using 2 ladders to repair some ridge tiles on the owse next door.
The weather was damp and he wasn't a youngen, he also did some repairs to the chimney while he was up there.
=£70!! ... I nearly fell orf me chair, like.
He originated from Clitheroe, I chatted him - nice bloke.
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We had water coming in via two chimney breasts. Roofer spent 3 days remortaring in flashings and replacing cracked bricks. No scaffolding. £350.
Need two other chimneys to be done = other chimney breasts (we have 4 in total).. so he'll get the job when it's dry...
Last edited by: madf on Mon 4 Feb 13 at 16:14
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Fred Dibnah would be up there in a flash using just a bit of old rope.
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you cant beat swithland slate for quallity... up here in the east midlands up't northish
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Got all Fred Dibnah's videos great bloke he used to drive his steamroller half p.
3.500 quid seems a bit steep for lead flashing and pointing no problem if you have the money.
Did some work on the chimmey once when I was young and daft.Ladder against gutter and got on with it.A previous old house also pointed the outside wall.
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>> Did some work on the chimmey once when I was young and daft.Ladder against gutter
On our old house, you'd not get me up as high as the chimney on a ladder!
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It sounds on the pricey side to me, but I suppose the scaffolding will be a disproportionate part of what is really only a small job.
We recently had a big old stone cottage chimney entirely rebuilt from roof level upwards, including flashing, flaunching, new/reclaimed brickwork corners, chimney pot, liner and scaffolding, for about £3,000.
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If it's only one chimney that needed pointing then surely scaffolding and cost of the job for that is not over £1700. Scaffolding and platform for repointing a chimney is surely hundreds of pounds. And the job itself too. Depends where in the country I know.
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Get your own quote for the scaffold - plenty of competition out there.
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>> you cant beat swithland slate for quallity... up here in the east midlands up't northish
>>
My best mate lives near Melton Mowbray, got a Grade II* listed Jacobean manor house with Swithlands on it. I've spent a fair bit of time on that roof helping him. Brilliant when finished but because they're all different sizes it's like doing a jigsaw puzzle!
Last edited by: VxFan on Tue 5 Feb 13 at 01:31
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we have the swithland quarries as a nature park now, they are set in some of the oldest rock formation on the planet, the quarries are full of water now ( around 160 feet deep) they are fenced off but the local divers and police practice in the water
many a good sunday afternoon spent there in my younger days....oh and the fence didnt keep us out :)
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Send me some decent pictures, rough location etc. and I'll tell you the facts. No Bull.
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Ping them to my address and I'll forward them to Martin - not sure whether his e-mail is publicly visible or not.
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Not, methinks Rob.
Last edited by: Martin Devon on Mon 4 Feb 13 at 22:20
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Martin's offer much appreciated. Pics will happen at the weekend, which is the first time I'll see it in the light.
Interesting idea about getting the scaffolding sorted separately too - thanks Rob.
It's two chimneys, one at each end, so either two sets of scaffolding or one enormous set I guess. It also needs to go on the neighbours drive for one of them, which is going to be an "interesting" sell. They park their car exactly where it needs to go and have nowhere else. They don't know this yet.
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Interesting sell?
You have loose slates.. Don't want them to land on their car?
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Crankcase, loose slate, I'd never have adam & eved it.
:}
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You probably could obtain legal right of access for repairs to your property under the Neighbouring Land Act. It is also possible that there is an easement in the deeds allowing access to neighbouring properties for repairs especially if it is a newish house.
Probably best to start negotiations with a polite request though!
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It's not slates, it's manky tiles, and they're not loose. Others have talked in this thread about loose slates, but not me.
It'll be ok, it's just they're not hugely welcoming however hard we try, and I always seem to be asking them to do things that inconvenience them. I'll just have to have, well let's call it an encounter.
Not newish either. It's on an 1845 map, who knows how much further back it goes.
Last edited by: Crankcase on Tue 5 Feb 13 at 09:51
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>> It's not slates, it's manky tiles, and they're not loose.
>>
We know that. But I think madf was suggesting that if the neighbours thought there might be a possibility of loose slates they would not want to park their car underneath, and would positively beg you to put up some scaffolding pdq and fix them.
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I think £3500 for flashing on two chimneys is utterly staggering. Assuming the usual simple lead flashing I see guys put on Victorian houses I'm going to guestimate the lead plus misc materials at £60 per chimney, scaffold £500 for two done together. I reckon it would take builder/roofer + mate max 2 days at £300/day labour. That's less than £1300 for the job.
I've assumed gable end chimneys which are easiest but if either is situated centrally along a roof ridge allow an extra £300 scaffold/materials/labour costs.
It annoys me when roofers/builders will charge folks materials at full "retail", a good chunk of labour... but then add a massive profit element which is totally unrelated the the complexity of the job... more to top the bill up to what they think you'll pay.
Same as double glazing. Quite possible to supply/fit a 12 window house with basic double glazing for £4000 charging a fair labour rate... or charge £7000 if the owner is gullible enough.
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The figure I had in my head was pay no more than 1500 pounds.
If in doubt get some Polski lads do a good job for a fair price.>:)
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Link the chimney scaffoldings. Saves a lot of up and down. One cost will negate the other. Where is the job? The scaf' over the neighbours might be able to be hung from the roof if they don't want tube on their land, but the cars will have to go cos of falling debris.
Not all Polskis are good either and some are downright thieves. They can also have a very nasty streak out of all proportion to the problem.
Everyone here has missed what could be the problem with water/moisture ingress, but you'll just have to wait until the pics arrive.
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Hmm, reminds we of when the valley gutter[1] went on a house I used to own. Tenant phoned a local firm with a nice, bright ad in the Thomson local who stuck some tarps up for an exorbitant callout fee.
They also quoted to patch the leak. Four grand!
A good mate of my father's is an architect. He recommended a firm he used regularly for roofing work who came out and looked at the thing. They pointed out that patching it would be, at best, a short term fix and ideally the whole shebang needed replacing in conjunction with next door.
Total of 1200 quid each, which both I and next door jumped at. They did a Rolls-Royce job too. There are good, honest firms out there, it's just a question of asking the right person.
The first mob attempted to bill me for rental of their shonky old tarps at 250 quid a week. I told them I'd see them in court and heard no more of it.
[1] Semi-detached, seperate pitched rooves with a huge, lined gutter running between them for the full depth of the property.
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>>phoned a local firm with a nice, bright ad in the Thomson local<<
BIG mistake!
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Or, almost any advert in any publication that is accompanied by a list of 'phone numbers as long as your arm.
Last edited by: Clk Sec on Tue 5 Feb 13 at 13:23
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The best tradesmen don't need to advertise for work :)
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All this wet weather must have had an effect. My colleague randomly commented today he'd taken a good half dozen calls on chimney related problems - (we are involved where the stacks are shared on adjoining properties) - I've had quite a few as well.
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I guess you've sorted it Sir?
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Golly, didn't think there'd be an interest sufficient to dredge it up! Thanks Martin.
Not yet sorted, and family illness circs prevented me taking any pics at the weekend unfortunately. However, I've told both quoters that I'm not proceeding at this moment, so I can get some breathing space. The dripping, which is much reduced but present, has been re-routed, via a complex series of trays, pots and other paraphenalia, to empty into the hot water expansion tank for the moment. Don't suppose a bit of rainwater will do it much harm.
I'll get pics done at the next opportunity, which might be Sunday, when I think there will be about one hour in daylight when it's possible, assuming nothing else crops up.
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Always here somewhere Matey. If Rob pings them to me I'll have a Butchers Hook.
Regards,
M.
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Seats, edge of, I know, I know.
tinyurl.com/a988zcq
Link to Picasa with I hope a couple of pics. First is the "good" chimney, second is the "temporary bodge repair".
I have to say that:
it doesn't leak any more at the moment, even in the rain
it looks like a disaster zone in the picture
I can see gaps in the pointing in that pic you can't see from the ground, but hey, they went up there and I assume those gaps aren't significant.
Anyway, still at the "getting it sorted properly" will be £3500 stage. My inclination at the minute is to leave it and see if it leaks again when we get serious rain.
House insurance said push off, btw.
House has been there at least since 1845, but no idea when that chimney was built/repaired/replaced.
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Why not using the same colour mortar mix instead of the white stuff.Just wondering.
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>>
>> House has been there at least since 1845, but no idea when that chimney was
>> built/repaired/replaced.
>>
But the roof is much more recent, not to say modern, and that might be the problem.
If the original roof were slate it would have been thinner, so even if it had had lead flashing it would have been in the wrong position on the chimney to simply tuck the newer tiles under it.
Hence the expedient of just bodging it up with that tile stuff and mortar, rather than fitting new lead flashing in the proper position. It's a bit like trying to seal a leaking bath edge by sticking on a bit of quadrant.
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One of the nice men will do the lead flashing repair for £3500, or a whole new roof for £5000, he tells me, (using the same kind of concrete monstrosity tiles that are there now).I'd dismissed that as too many pennies for no real benefit. Should I consider it?
Last edited by: Crankcase on Tue 26 Feb 13 at 13:22
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>> One of the nice men will do the lead flashing repair for £3500, or a
>> whole new roof for £5000,
>>
I don't get that. He'd have to do the same work on the flashing anyway. Why throw in a new roof for £1500 when there is apparently nothing wrong with the old one?
Or is he saying that the roof is fundamentally wrong around the chimneys, and would really be best rectified by a new roof?
I'd get a new quote from another roofer and simply ask, how much would it cost to put a proper lead flashing on the chimneys?
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If y'all can get both stacks lead flashed AND the duff one re-pointed for 3.5 big ones, I don't think that's too painful ... for where you live.
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Standard concrete tiles I have them on our roof 30 years old now. It all depends what you can afford to pay and willing to pay.There are far nicer roof tiles to buy.I have seen them when I go to my birth village they are shiny like glazed but expensive.I would wait untill summer keep a eye out if you have any leakage.
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Building insurances don't want to know.Unless it is storm damage tiles blowing off the roof etc.Water damage in the house should be covered by house insurance shouldn't it?
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Blimey, never seen a cement collar like that acting as a water seal. Surprised its not leaked since the day it dried.
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>> Blimey, never seen a cement collar like that acting as a water seal.
Lots like it in our street. Maybe in 1902 a velocipede turned up with "Shoddy Brothers - Chimney Installations for One Shiny Shilling" written on it.
As to insurance - no, unless it was a "storm, by which we mean wind speed in your postcode area of over 47mph for a duration of more than 30 minutes". I asked.
Last edited by: Crankcase on Tue 26 Feb 13 at 13:33
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>> Blimey, never seen a cement collar like that acting as a water seal. Surprised its
>> not leaked since the day it dried.
Something similar on our last but one house, a Victorian terrace place in Watford. A mortar 'fillet' round the chimney was common adjunct to replacing crappy old slates with concrete pantiles. Our had been done some years by time we bought in 86.
It leaked occasionally in particular wind/rain combinations. Local builder reckoned roof was sagging under weight of pantiles, improved support by adding a brace in the loft and patch replacing mortar.
No more leaks before we left a couple of years later.
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>> never seen a cement collar like that acting as a water seal. Surprised its
>> not leaked since the day it dried.
I've seen a few, and they all leak even if proper waterproof cement is used (which it often isn't). The other thing is that that chimney could certainly do with repointing and is porous perhaps from the very top. The fillet round the base of a chimneypot often cracks and is a usual source of water ingress.
Flashing should be made of lead or failing that zinc sheet (less durable). And properly installed of course.
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>> >>phoned a local firm with a nice, bright ad in the Thomson local<<
>>
>> BIG mistake!
>>
Yes, I had a complete sense of humour failure. Bad enough that they had a big colour spread. The fact that the'd paid to have it appear first in the category (i.e. out of alphabetical listing sequence) would put it, for me, firmly into the same category as that email informing me that I'm in line for a million quid from an african lawyer.
It's bad enough that there are people gullible enough to fall for this sort of thing, without them being gullible at my expense.
However. I did really enjoy telling them exactly where they could stick their bill for tarp rental.
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the whole lot wants re doing ( sucks air through teeth) the old compo needs knocking out to at least 15 mill then re-pointing, the concrete 'flashing' should really be replaced with lead...or a strong 3:1 mortar screed type finish preferably acid resistent cement if the chimney is active
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How much d'you reckon then beekeeper, a Monkey, a Grubby Hand, an Archer?
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It will be a complete re-build Crankers incorporating at least 1No. code 5 lead tray within. The mortar fillet is an amateur method. Lead soakers OVER the tiles and stepped lead flashing to the sides. If it were local to me say 2.5 -3k depending on factors. All plus v.a.t. sadly. Hope this helps.
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Thanks Martin - the professional eye is appreciated.
Sounds like the price I've got is pretty much realistic and not a complete rip off, which is what i was trying to establish. Paying for it all and organising it is a different set of problems to be dealt with.
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might be cheaper to have it taken off and the area tiled over? is it in use?
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Most roofers/builders will insist on scaffolding blaming it on "health & safety".It isn't-it's usually their insurance company-H & S only require a safe working environment.
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>> i was trying to establish.
As a pedant, you really must pull up your socks.
;-)
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If you do go for the complete job send me their spec' if you wish before you sign up and I'll have a look at it. The detail is very important as in the code (weight) of the lead, salt free sand etc. Often a lot can be garnered by the way things are written.
All the best, Martin.
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Martin,
I have one quote electronically here, so pasted as follows:
For erecting 2no. scaffolding towers enable safe working access. This is a requirement of the HSE.
Both to be erected around chimneys.
For stripping off the tiles and set aside for re-use from around both chimneys.
For carefully knocking off the mortar .
For cutting into the brick work new chase to take new step and cover flashings.
For supplying new BS code 4 lead which is fitted into the new brick chases..
For re-tiling in the tiles taken off around the chimney, replacing any we feel not suitable for re-use.
For dressing over new lead work onto the tiles complete.
For dressing into the wall new lead wedges.
For re-pointing the chase in which the lead is returned into neatly, ensuring a good strong mix of mortar.
For checking around the chimney and re-flunch tops complete.
For clearing away all debris from the above property leaving clean and tidy as found.
A little negotiation has resulted in 2,300.00 + VAT
Last edited by: Crankcase on Fri 1 Mar 13 at 10:27
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As you have negotiated a sizeable discount, it might be worth establishing whether or not your chosen contractor will be working to the same specification, same materials, etc, as outlined in his quote.
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If that is for 2 Chimneys then fine. My previous costing of course was a re-build for one only. The spec' sounds OK as long as they adhere to it. Where Lead back gutters and front Aprons (if applicable) are required, then they should be cut and burnt at the corners and not just dressed around.
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working off a ladder is a bit un pc these days....your supposed to have three points of contact on the ladder leaving one hand free to work with...or foot if your really good
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Chimney flashing repair - No FM2R
