What do you more technically minded people think as a solution to the following:
We live in a 2 storey house, that has the rear look like a bungalow, i.e. the 1st floor windows at the rear are like they are on the ground floor (and obviously there are no rear windows on the ground floor, because it is under ground).
There is quite a long landing upstairs and three of the bedrooms are at the end of it. The only access to downstairs is at the other end of that long landing (where the 4th bedroom and bathroom are).
My wife and I have discussed the way out in a fire as the kids bedrooms are at the end where the staircase isn't...and.......none of the windows comply with modern regs, they are all small openers at the top, so you could just about post a kid out, but the lardy parents would fry.
My intial thought was change a window for a door..but...we are in Dartmoor National Park where planning is strict, we don't necessarily want a door there and would rarely if ever use it and cost would come in to it.
Then I thought of having the window changed for a more modern lower opening one. Bit of cost comes into it, but better than doing nothing.
Then, I thought of having it re-glazed as it was, but having an emergency type handle(s) placed about the interior beading, so you could easily pull the pane out from the inside (is there such a thing?).
Then, there is the emergency glass breaking things you get in some vehicles. Would one of those do attached to the wall on a bracket, would that break a double glazed unit?
Doing nothing is not an option.
Anyone got any ideas?
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so are you saying there is little or no drop from the rear windows to the ground? IMHO its a no brainer, replace one of the windows with a fully opening type that meets current building regs.
It needs to be non complicated, so glass breakers and "pull outs" are a no go.
I might, as an extra fit a fire delay door on the landing.
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>> IMHO its a no brainer, replace one of the windows with a fully
>> opening type that meets current building regs.
>> It needs to be non complicated,
>> I might, as an extra fit a fire delay door on the landing.
>>
I agree with Zero.
A fire delay door then add some intumesent strips and maybe a door closer.
www.wickes.co.uk/invt/165870
Assume you have some interlinked smoke alarms.
Review what happens from the window cill onwards into the dark.
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>>Then, there is the emergency glass breaking things you get in some vehicles. Would one of those do attached to the wall on a bracket, would that break a double glazed unit?
Have you tried breaking a double glazed unit? The air between the frames acts as a spring, as does the other pane of glass. I'm told the trick is to hit it in a corner, but would a child remember that in the panic of a fire?
Looks like you're going to have to dig into that gold-plated pension of yours. ;>)
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Car side and rear windows are toughened glass which when broken breaks into nice small bits. House windows are generally normal glass and when they break, they have sharp edges galore. So a glass breaking hammer would be very risky to use.
I think you need to change the glazing so there is either a lower and bigger opening or what amounts to a door.
Glass is heavy so you would not want to be taking glass out in a hurry.
I'd be asking a local builder or joiner. They ought to know what is acceptable as planning in National Parks can be a bit funny and although approval might be needed, asking may get you required to do something you'd rather not.
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Bear in mins as well that (IIRC) WP's kids are quite young - well pre teens - and may need to get out with minimal adult assistance.
Remember discussing this with our two when they were small.
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New window.
Anything else is a fudge.
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>> New window.
>>
>> Anything else is a fudge.
>>
You are right.
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>> Bear in mins as well that (IIRC) WP's kids are quite young - well pre
>> teens - and may need to get out with minimal adult assistance.
One is 5, the other is 1
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That was what I thought.
Mine are 18 and 20 but you don't stop worrying. Eldest ended up in minor injuries in Sheff today after a fall in her pole dancing exercise class. Collar bone was more robust than mine and only bruised.
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>> Mine are 18 and 20 but you don't stop worrying.
Glad you don't.
I thought kids had passed me by..but i'm glad to say they haven't. Hadn't planned on having little ones fast approaching 50..but there are more advantages than disadvantages.
One point was, booking all my holiday leave and days owing at the end of my police service, so I could have a chunk of time off at the end, paid..and then realising that I was also entitled to 5 days paid 'maternity support leave'. My boss had to electronically authorise it..and in discussions about it, he reckoned he'd never heard of anyone achieving that and to be fair neither had I...and I was in charge of the office that dealt with that sort of thing.
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>> I was also entitled to 5 days paid 'maternity support leave'.
Old civil service rules I suspect.
A colleague got married three times and had a weeks leave each time!
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If you're in Dartmoor National Park you'll know that builders there have a don't ask, don't tell policy when it comes to building work. Just make sure it looks original. :-)
Last edited by: Fursty Ferret on Mon 28 Jan 13 at 20:24
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I have no advice to help people jumping out of the 1st floor window, but I have a guaranteed, 100% patentable idea to ensure that not a single person would ever fall out of the 110th floor of a sky scraper. No parachutes, no rope ladder, no tying the sheets together.
The design of the tower would be to sculpture the bottom five floors (in glass) like the serif of a 'Times Roman I'. So had those guys in 9/11 jumped out of the windows and rapidly hit terminal velocity, the 'serif shape' would gradually alter their trajectory from up/down to sideways starting around the fifth level and save them. Like a large-scale slide. Sure they might land a few blocks away, but a guaranteed fail-safe.
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That's a pretty neat idea. And probably not much worse than going over Niagara falls in a barrel.
It would be almost irresistible to test it on some of the people I've worked with.
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If you have two 'serif' towers side by side, I wonder what the pendulum effect of a human being would be. How far would he reach up the second tower after jumping off the top of the first? And how many pendulum motions would occur before he stops at the bottom between the two?
Where's Number Cruncher?
Last edited by: BiggerBadderDave on Mon 28 Jan 13 at 22:30
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Find a chap like we have on tap, an independent window and double glazing bloke and a decent full opener will cost surprisingly little.
Theres the dubious question about locking the windows, make sure everyone knows where the keys (several that cannot be lost as attached but secret to your family) are to be found in total darkness and smoke by a frightened little 'un should the unthinkable happen, if indeed you do lock the windows or remove the keys which is something we all decide for ourselves.
Wise man WP, its something my dad instilled in me and i'm wary to this day of making the sure the house is escapable as can be bearing in mind security.
I've visited peoples houses before where they have to faff around finding door keys and five minutes later they finally have the front door open, incredible.
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>>>dubious question about locking the windows,
Would you ever lock the windows when you were in the house?
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Been musing this myself - thinking of getting a rope ladder type thing - used to see them advertised quite regularly.
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I don't lock any window in our house.Never have done I would have a escape window fitted we have one on top of the landing.
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>> >>>dubious question about locking the windows,
>>
>> Would you ever lock the windows when you were in the house?
The question is, do you unlock all the windows when you get back to the house? (if you lock them when you leave)
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It's been a very long day and just popping in here before the land of nod so don't berate me if I'm wrong.
'Means of escape windows'. AFAIK means access for emergency services, NOT necessarily for us lardy types to escape. Most windows would foil me now for getting out due to their height, lack of width and of course the failing hips and knees, the latter being a brake on movement at all times. The OP has raised an exceptionally important subject which I guess we all fail to address properly. Pretty much the same as Muster on ship to organise escape. We all think it's a fag to do and a bit 'silly', but to be fair it's a small price to pay for not having a lifetime of regret.
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>> Would you ever lock the windows when you were in the house?
>>
Well without giving any potential burgaleer the nod would you return home and unlock 16 person sized full openers every time you returned home, and then relock them every time you went out?
Would we give the same answer to an insurance investigator?..;)
I wonder if celebs have home central locking or do they have a gopher for things like that.
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>> I've visited peoples houses before where they have to faff around finding door keys and
>> five minutes later they finally have the front door open, incredible.
>>
I come across that all the time, particularly with the elderly. It's one thing taking a few minutes to find the key in normal circumstances, quite another when your 'arris is on fire and you're in a blind panic.
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Let me get this right. Are the bedroom windows at the front ie the first floor or the back ie the ground floor? Either way some proper opening fire escape windows. New windows come under building regulations anyway. I cant see officialdom overiding basic safety requirements. Or maybe I'm naive. They would be more interested in style and materials. 'I say buy one get one free'.
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>>New windows come under building regulations anyway.
>> I cant see officialdom overiding basic safety requirements.
>>Or maybe I'm naive.
IMO Only a real cowboy would install windows and not give a FENSA certificate so there is some sort of backup re building regs but any decent buyer will want FENSA certificates if you move then watch the fan!!
www.fensa.org.uk/
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>>Or maybe I'm naive
Sorry, you're naive.
According to Building Regs I needed an escape window. According to conservation I would be staked to the nearest ant hill if I tried to install one.
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>> Let me get this right. Are the bedroom windows at the front ie the first
>> floor or the back ie the ground floor?
Part of the landing and one child's bedroom faces the rear (as does another part of the landing and the bathroom, at the top of the stairs end of the landing). None of the windows at the back conform to any fire regs for escape.
There are wider opening windows at the side and front in 3 out of the 4 bedrooms..but...A, they are all on the 1st floor..and B, they open out onto a sloping roof on an extension downstairs. So for an escape route it would be well dodgy, as we seem to have an enormous amount of rain here.
I'm thinking the best advice is get a new window..and ...put it in the child's bedroom at the end of the corridor, so the 3 bedrooms at that end could use that room as a refuge by shutting the door and escaping via the window.
The sole bedroom at the other end of the landing is near the top of the stairs anyway...and if there was a problem with fire coming up the stairs, you'd run to the 'safe' bedroom and shut the door behind you (once you've grabbed the kids of course).
The stairs and landing is all open..as is the bottom of the stairs into a living room with a large wood burning stove.
There are two smoke alarms and two carbon monoxide alarms, where they should be.
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Any realistice escape in our house would be the front door at the bottum of the landing.We have a smoke alarm in the living room and the kitchen.Both kitchen and living room doors are shut when I go to bed.I would be able to escape out the top of the landing window I doubt my missus would.I forgot a smoke alarm linked to the burglar alarm on top of the landing.Panic is the problem exspecially with children a fire drill wouldn't do any harm.
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Maybe lock the windows when you go on holiday but...
It has already stated that it is difficult to break a single pane - how about double glazing. so trying to get in from the outside is a big faff provided they are good windows, glazed from the inside etc. The simple locks will not make much difference if a crow bar is used.
My daughter's flat is two and a half floors up with a fire ladder bolted to the outside wall. Concerned dad talked to the very local fire station lads re what to do etc
" In normal circumstances we will be there before you have really have time to react so wait for us"
This is fine in an urban are but if they are already on a shout ????
May I suggest you have a chat with the local fire lads before progressing?
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I asked about locking windows because we never lock (modern DG) unless going away overnight. The locks do not make any difference from the point of view of anyone breaking in from outside. They have to already have smashed a window or got in through a door to push the unlocked button anyway so to me locking has minimal advantage. As fas as I can see it just makes it slightly harder to use the window as an escape route with the gear.
I would rather know all possible fire exits (opening windows) are freely available and take that tiny risk that should I suffer theft and should the insurance company faily to pay out in full it will cost me.
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>>May I suggest you have a chat with the local fire lads before progressing?<<
^ I'm with this geezer.
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>> May I suggest you have a chat with the local fire lads before progressing?
I like that idea, but would they be bothered with that? Maybe i'll try to find an admin number and give them a call.
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IME local fire bods are usually very keen to come out and give advice in these circs - makes their life easier if the worst ever happens. If your kids are lucky they might bring the appliance with them (always ready for a shout) and let them have a sit in it/ring the bell etc.
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>> >> May I suggest you have a chat with the local fire lads before progressing?
>>
>> I like that idea, but would they be bothered with that?
I have always found them most helpful.
I suspect you start off with brownie points by approaching them.
They appreciate you being pro active rather than them sorting out the aftermath.
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>> Maybe i'll try to find an admin number and give them a call.
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I would start off low key, in person rather than formal approach especailly as it is not yet claer what is involved re planning concent etc.
When you get closer to getting windows the majority of PVCu ( and my aluminium ones) come equiped with friction hinges and NO stays so it is a case os lean out to close windows. They do not point this out when in sales mode.
Also IMO avoid small top hinged upper windowsfor the same reason.
One of my windows cracked a few weeks ago . Installed 5/6 years ago but I told them it was not my fault but theirs. A new one is now awaiting installation so I will quiz them further .
Any more questions I can ask them ?
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>>>" In normal circumstances we will be there before you have really have time to react so wait for us" This is fine in an urban are but if they are already on a shout ???? May I suggest you have a chat with the local fire lads before progressing?
Good idea, ask them what their average response time to attend is. They have the figures but don't always give them out. Ask them how long you really have to get out before a fire takes hold and creates enough smoke to kill you and then how much longer before the flames get to you.
In reality you have one to two minutes to get out from hearing the smoke alarm so you need to gather your senses, your family, dial 999 and get out. 4 minutes is more than enough for the smoke to fill every room of the house closely followed by the flames.
Linked alarms are a must (I've slept through a single downstairs alarm, its easily done), an escape rope ladder with plastic steps that rest proud of the wall is a very good idea and a window (if not in the lock, key in blue tack under the inside ledge) that you can all clamber through and easily shove out a couple of mattresses if they're in that room to drop onto. Then as others have said practice run it with the kids, waking them up, finding the key in the dark, deploying the ladder, getting all 4 of you out steadily and safely. See how far you're through the process when 2 minutes is reached.
This video shows a downstairs room catching fire, at 2:30 minutes the room above it would be a death zone. The smoke alarm would have sounded at around 20 to 30 seconds. Assuming no other calls, the fire service will be around one minute into their journey to reach you.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=piofZLySsNc
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>>...before a fire takes hold and creates enough smoke to kill you
>>....4 minutes is more than enough for the smoke to fill every room of the house
>>
Well just to add to the gloom..... The information I read was " after 15 SECONDS in smoke your eyes close and stay closed" so that will slow evacuation.
Remember what happens when near a bonfire and the smoke suddenly comes you way!
As I posted earlier- fit intumesent strips as a smoke barrier,
This video shows a downstairs room catching fire, at 2:30 minutes the room above it would be a death zone.
Very impressive but it was not a sealed room which would surely slow things down.
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"Very impressive but it was not a sealed room which would surely slow things down."
From his description, the OP's living room isn't sealed off from his bedrooms either.
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"you need to gather your senses, your family, dial 999 and get out."
No! Get out, get safely away from the fire, corral the kids so nobody attempts to go back into the house after toys, teddy bears etc (it happens all too often) THEN ring 999.
I don't mean to be any way picky, but should the worst happen its vital that you know instinctively what to do. Otherwise you panic, and that's when many tragic mistakes have been made.
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Why all the fuss though? I've lived in 15 homes (and a few remand homes) since I was thrust into this world,
and never had a fire, I've never been struck by lightning, run over by a bus, been in a aircraft/shipping disaster,
never been mugged/raped/robbed, hit by a meteorite or abducted by aliens etc.
But like Bad Dave, I do take precautions e.g. 3 smoke alarms (wired) and a CO detector.
I should imagine the vast majority of house fires can be prevented - with a modicum of not-so common sense.
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"never had a fire, I've never been struck by lightning, run over by a bus, been in a aircraft/shipping disaster, never been mugged/raped/robbed, hit by a meteorite or abducted by aliens etc."
A few days after writing this a series of most unfortunate incidents befell Dog which made him famous throughout the world.........
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Fame and tranquillity can never be bedfellows - I'll stay watching the lowing herd wind slowly o'er the lea.
:}
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Advice needed re 1st floor fire escape route - Zero
