tinyurl.com/auztrwp
What does the forum think of this?
My take is, 'too bad, shouldn't have gone in there with a firearm'.
Good chance he pegged it from 'positional asphyxia', very real problem for law enforcement, particularly with larger gentlemen. Difficult balance to get right, because if you release your hold a bit, large men often fight back again.
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>> Good chance he pegged it from 'positional asphyxia',
Wearing a gas mask did much to make this worse.....
Good luck to the CPS trying to pin this on someone. Guess it will be accidental death or misadventure.
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>> Plenny of comments about it at the bottom of this article:
Some of those comments have had me in stitches.
Presumably a nephew of the deceased posted something unwise and left his phone number?...then had his post deleted?
Sounds like a real charming family.
Last edited by: Westpig on Sat 26 Jan 13 at 16:30
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>> Sounds like a real charming family.
Every town has their selection....
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>>Some of those comments have had me in stitches<<
Bit like the comments in the Daily Mail (not that I'm a DiM reader)
We often watch Cops on CBS (Freesat) and I've seen some mighty meaty coppers jump on a fleeing felon who always live to carry on with their chosen career.
Perhaps comrade Levers had a weak heart or more likely the gas mask helped hasten his demise.
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Good riddance.
However, this quote from one of his many friends and relatives, probably his cousin who was known as UncleDad....
"Right now we want answers. We need to know exactly what happened."
It is a sign of our society that any idiot would even say that, never mind a newspaper misguided enough to print it implying justifiable outrage.
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He has to be on the short list for a place in the 2013 Darwin awards.
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"Mr Levers also said his uncle had been trying to move on from his criminal past after a spell in prison."
I'm convinced.
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One down a few thousands to go..
(I'm all heart really :-)
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....Good chance he pegged it from 'positional asphyxia', very real problem for law enforcement, particularly with larger gentlemen.....
Not that generally members of the public are familiar with this particular issue.
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Not when they are sat on his fat face they aint, no.
Shame.
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I must say that if I had to be 'restrained' I would (just) rather be restrained by Old Bill than a random mob of angry self-righteous betting shop punters.
Did this geezer even have a proper weapon? I doubt it. And I doubt that he deserved to be lynched to death either. But he put himself in harm's way so has to carry the blame, even if some of the 'restrainers' vented their cruelty on him with fatal results. It isn't that easy to kill a healthy man accidentally with your bare hands, knees, elbows, feet and so on.
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"I would (just) rather be restrained by Old Bill than a random mob of angry self-righteous betting shop punters. "
So you don't believe in helping people uphold the law? :-)
Last edited by: madf on Sat 26 Jan 13 at 18:18
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From a legal point of view if he had died at the hands of the Police in a similar situation they may have had problems with the positional asphyxia thing, public get no training in restraint and implications of PA - hopefully those involved will be exonerated...
Clearly a man of little class - trying to rob a Costcutter for goodness sake ! Maybe he was a Grumbleweeds fan.
Last edited by: R.P. on Sat 26 Jan 13 at 18:32
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If any of the betting shop customers is charged with anything you can imagine the outrage the press will promote on behalf of the have a go heroes.
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ON - Never underestimate the ability of the CPS to make a perverse decision...
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I guess anyone charged will be able to claim self defence. He was a big guy and may have been able to get the gun back.
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My personal opinion - from what I've read a proportionate response.
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"People who put themselves in danger to tackle criminals should be celebrated as heroes, the UK's most senior police officer has said.
Metropolitan Police Commissioner Sir Paul Stephenson said such people "make our society worthwhile".
Police should encourage people to intervene, not just allow them to do so, the commissioner added."
news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8470538.stm
Last edited by: madf on Sat 26 Jan 13 at 19:15
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For sure
He was not the sharpest knife in the drawer, he was, as a matter of public record; a heroin addict, an alcoholic, an habitual offender and jailbird, one who tries to carry out an armed robbery with an imitation firearm whilst wearing a gasmask and so on.
From the comments in the Plymouth paper his kin seem to be cut from the same block and can see no wrong in what he has done.
There are days when I do despair.
As always
Mark
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>a random mob of angry self-righteous betting shop punters.
>Did this geezer even have a proper weapon? I doubt it. And I doubt that he deserved to be lynched to death either.
Well done AC. I can see it now.
"Excuse me old chap. Would you mind taking off that mask and allowing us to examine your weapon?"
"Oh! and do you have any pre-existing medical conditions that might preclude us from restraining you until plod arrives?"
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They did what they did - AC would have probably written a letter to the Guardian !
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>> would have probably written a letter to the Guardian !
Not my thing at all.
When I was young and naive, not more than 20 or so, a rough looking little bloke approached me very late at night in the street in North Oxford and furtively produced some sort of blade. He said something and I said, What? The bloke, already regretting it, muttered something about did I want to buy this knife. Since it appeared to be falling apart and I didn't want a knife I said No, and we parted.
Sounds as if this geezer in the betting shop could easily have been an upmarket version of the rough looking little bloke, in other words pathetically obvious. This would have been apparent to some if not all of the people in the betting shop, as would the non-serious nature of his weapon.
Perhaps he had poor health owing to his lifestyle and died easily because of that. But perhaps not. I've seen people before being cruel and thinking they had an excuse for it. Perhaps the betting shop punters did it by accident and are feeling sorry. But it's possible some of them took advantage of the situation in a bad way. I've seen people doing that too.
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Bit undecided here, in a way well done the punters for stopping the geezer, but i don't think he deserved to die for being a a bit of a plank, and i don't suppose any of them wanted to kill him either.
He could have been slightly off his rocker, who knows he could easily have turned out to be an old soldier or other previously decent stick with the results of PTSD or other mental issue sending him a bit bonkers, could have been anyone under a gas mask really, too late asking questions when he's croaked.
Takes all sorts.
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Depends how realistic the shooter was - I would imagine that real ones aren't that hard to get in a place like Plymouth.
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>> Depends how realistic the shooter was - I would imagine that real ones aren't that hard to get in a place like Plymouth.>>
It was very realistic according to a police chief. People are hardly likely to carefully check whether or not it was when faced with such a situation.
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Just found this information:
"Levers, from Honicknowle, was previously jailed for four years after he pointed an imitation handgun at the face of a shop worker at a Costcutter in the city during a robbery in December 2009, the Plymouth Herald reported. It said he had previous convictions for burglary and assault dating back to 1976."
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The Uzi and Magnum a friend brought to school in the late 80s were really really realistic close up. They were to me. Have something similar on you today in public and risk being shot I guess.
Last edited by: rtj70 on Sat 26 Jan 13 at 22:21
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>> very realistic according to a police chief.
He would say that wouldn't he? And there's a crucial difference between 'realistic' and real looking.
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Not when its being pointed at you there isn't.
Last edited by: Fullchat on Sun 27 Jan 13 at 11:42
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>> >> very realistic according to a police chief.
>>
>> He would say that wouldn't he? And there's a crucial difference between 'realistic' and real
>> looking.
>>
Realism is in the eye of the beholder. Which police force was it that mistook a wooden leg for a gun?
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>> Realism is in the eye of the beholder. Which police force was it that mistook
>> a wooden leg for a gun?
>>
It was the Met...and the chair leg was wrapped up in a carrier bag..and was swung round at the two police officers that turned up, from the hip, just like the motion you'd do when aiming a sawn off shotgun at someone from that low angle.
Unfortunately for the man concerned, the two officers were armed, they just happened to be in that area on an extra patrol (more senior officer out on patrol with a junior one, rather than the established 3 person crew that an armed response team would be). The more senior one was a mate of mine.
There was speculation that it was 'suicide by cop' as there'd been an anonymous phone call from the pub the 'victim' had been in, stating there was a man in there with a gun. It was never proven, although it is what I believe having discussed it with my mate at some considerable length.
Both officers had that hanging over them for more than 5 years..and were arrested at one point by another Force investigating it. Their bacon was saved by the Met Police Federation getting an FBI expert witness to look at everything and prove their statements were correct, as it was believed they were not (all hinged on the angle of a shot the victim received, it being believed the officers shot him in the back, the reality was people being shot react violently and often turn around very quickly, hence one shot in the front and one in the back...happens a lot in the US, less so here because we shoot less people).
The ongoing 5 year witch hunt and the appalling way the officers were treated had the Met end up with real problems when loads of armed officers started handing in their cards (authority to carry a firearm, voluntary), the met started to organise emergency cover from other forces, but there were rumblings there as well.
It took the govt and the Met police commissioner to show more open support and placate the staff associations etc for it all to calm down.
Unless given a direct lawful order or in an unimaginable situation of mass strife, I would never ever have been willing to carry a gun..because of the above reasons i.e. the truly awful lack of back up and support.
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>> the truly awful lack of back up and support.
>>
Twas ever thus, the troops do the dirty work, the bosses close ranks when questions are asked. Watch your own back, they won't.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Sun 27 Jan 13 at 18:12
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And a blind man's white stick for a samurai sword - before he was tazered!
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>> And a blind man's white stick for a samurai sword - before he was tazered!
>>
...and the relevance of this statement?
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>> for being a a bit of a plank
Being a bit of a plank?
Pointing a gun which appeared real at people, putting them in fear of their life, intending to steal someone else's money with violence?
Again.
And you call that being a bit of a plank?
He's dead.
Good.
One less.
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Yes and he probably deserved to be, but thats with the benefit of hindsight.
If he turned out to be an unbalanced but otherwise previously decent geezer who through no fault of his own got half his brain dislodged fighting in some British Junta government political war 5 years ago and left to fend for himself under a laughingly titled Care in the Community program, this discussion wouldn't be taking quite the nasty tone it is.
He wasn't like i describe, but no one knew that till after he was lynched dead, thats why i said i was in two minds about this case.
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If, as seems likely this man dies as a result of being restrained in perhaps a rather heavy handed manner whilst trying to conduct an armed robbery then he truly brought the misfortune upon himself.
It is unfortunate though that nobody had the wit to see that the man was having trouble breathing or thought to remove the gas mask although no blame can rest on those present for this omission if, as it seems, it was innocent
It it is distasteful to rejoice in his death
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I dont see that we should mourn his passing tho.
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>> I dont see that we should mourn his passing tho.
Of course not. Put himself in harm's way, 'asked for it'. Poor silly so and so.
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No need to mourn, but no need to rejoice.
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>> No need to mourn, but no need to rejoice.
I think he's gone to a better place... somewhere warm.
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Are you going back to Tenerife Dog?
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>>Are you going back to Tenerife Dog?<<
Well CG, I check out mainland Spain and Cyprus daily:
www.weathercast.co.uk/world-weather/spain/spain.html
And the Canaries can't be beaten for winter sun, + just 4 hours from Gatwick.
But, £150k buys a 2 bed apartment in Tenerife/Gran Canaria, whereas the same money will get you a villa with a pool on the mainland, or Cyprus.
I like Tenerife though - we both like Tenerife, it suits us, and we know it well.
We're both 60 now so I have to think hard on the subject, many expats recommend renting rather than buying, but where to invest the pennies for a good safe return etc. etc.
We're ok here at the moment, and we might actually see some sun this year but I'm the sort of person who thinks about things long and hard for ages and ages, and then WHOOSH!
:)
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If I were to be tempted I'd go down the long term rental route. Don't sell your house, rent it out and use the incoming rental to pay your rent in Tenerife. That way you can always return and have no problems disposing of your property.
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As far as I'm concerned CG that's always been the way to go. I know many who have burnt their bridges.
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A old mate of mine Dennis has bought a few appartments in Tenerive.I think he rents a few out as well.We have never been to Tenerive sounds like a nice place.
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>>Don't sell your house, rent it out and use the incoming rental to pay your rent in Tenerife. That way you can always return and have no problems disposing of your property<<
Yep! - I've thought about taking that route CG, or selling this cottage and buying 2 or 3 properties to rent out but,
my wife works for a firm solicitors and tells me about some of the problems associated with tenants!!
>>We have never been to Tenerife sounds like a nice place<<
Some people luv it Dutchie, and some people loathe it ... bit like Cornwall ;)
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I won't be moving anymore Dog.Holidays yes and seeing family.You've got a nice patch where you live Dog.Sunshine will come this year.
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>>Sunshine will come this year<<
I wont be holding my breath Dutchie.
^_^
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Eh, the other thing about living anywhere in the Med is that it becomes unbearably hot in the summer months
and a tad chilly in the winter months so (for me) it's gotta be the Canaries, or Stopathome.
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>> No need to mourn, but no need to rejoice.
>>
>>
There are people the world is a better place without. This guy appears to have been one of them. I'd rather him dead than living next door to me.
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A QC said on the radio on the morning of the event that there would almost certainly be no case to answer. He was involved in the Tony Martin debacle.
My take on this is that he fell at the first fence.
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There are thousands of 'inadequates' like this, and nobody has a clue what to do with them. A friend of my wife inadvertently adopted a boy, now a young man displaying the behavioural symptoms of foetal alcohol syndrome; he doesn't know the difference between fantasy and reality or truth and lies, nor can he associate cause and effect. Nobody knows what to do with him ........ and he's costing us all a fortune!
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Our prisons are overfull social servives can't cope and plenty of feral people.Yes we are all in this together.
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>>Nobody knows what to do with him ........ and he's costing us all a fortune!
>>
Actually Haystack my old mate, most of us here DO KNOW what needs to be done with them.
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>> most of us here DO KNOW what needs to be done with them.
Not me MD. If it was that simple surely someone would have done it by now, wouldn't they?
There are 60 million of us so there have to be thousands of people of low intellect and damaged psychology, sometimes physically sickly too with drink and drug habits, who may sometimes be tempted to try something desperate if only to assert themselves in a crushing world that largely ignores them. However they are all different and need to be treated individually, or would if anyone were treating them. Such people have always been with us and always will be.
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There are also plenty who choose to live a life of crime while being perfectly capable of making a legitimate living. Not every criminal is a walking hard luck story, most are parasites.
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>> Not every criminal is a walking hard luck story, most are parasites.
Many are both, in varying proportions. It's tempting when annoyed by toeraggery to think they should all be killed or jailed or branded or put in the stocks or whatever (the stocks are quite good and might be brought back I sometimes think). The trouble is, one size doesn't fit all.
If this guy in the OP had been a real armed robber with a real weapon that he looked prepared to use, it's a safe bet that the betting shop punters would have twigged and wouldn't have jumped on him.
Lynching isn't a pretty thing at all, and can't often be deserved. A mob is a very dangerous savage animal.
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"A mob is a very dangerous savage animal."
Especially when its component members are too stupid to know the difference between a paedophile and a paediatrician.
However, I do feel RR and MD's frustration.
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I want to know how you can accidentally adopt someone...
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"I want to know how you can accidentally adopt someone..."
Yes, Z, for the benefit of those who didn't quite understand, she knew that she was adopting the boy .......... but she didn't know that she was adopting a boy with foetal alcohol syndrome - or, at least, I don't think she did.
It is now believed that not everyone with foetal alcohol syndrome displays the facial characteristics commonly associated with it. Look it up.
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Z, in our special needs group we have three children who were adopted into different families. One was known to have been terribly abused until found, aged five, when she had never been out of a cot. That child the adoptive parents knew was going to have a bundle of problems when they adopted her - fortunately she has the sweetest nature but learning difficulties as a result of her abuse.
The other two were adopted as very young normal children, it is only as they have grown up it has become apparent that both have quite severe special needs. Both these children were adopted while the parents were living outside this County and the areas they came from have not followed normal procedures in cases of adopted children moving - they basically washed their hands of them. They are supposed to continue to offer support and care for three years, then the new County takes over. One suspects in both cases the social workers were aware they might be problems, chose not to divulge this information and were subsequently delighted the families moved so they were no longer fiscally responsible.
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I made a wee joke about how a statement appears, I don't need to be told about special needs, I have enough practical experience of my own.
However I will say that adoption does not come with a guarantee, just like childbirth, you have to live with, and do the best for, whoever you adopt ( or bring into this world).
One certainly should not be bemoaning the fact one didn't get what one asked for and hasnt turned out all sweetness and light. Life aint like that.
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>> >> most of us here DO KNOW what needs to be done with them.
>>
>> Not me MD. If it was that simple surely someone would have done it by
>> now, wouldn't they?
>>
>> There are 60 million of us so there have to be thousands of people of
>> low intellect and damaged psychology, sometimes physically sickly too with drink and drug habits, who
>> may sometimes be tempted to try something desperate if only to assert themselves in a
>> crushing world that largely ignores them. However they are all different and need to be
>> treated individually, or would if anyone were treating them. Such people have always been with
>> us and always will be.
>>
I take your point Sir, but for the life of me how will we do that when fiscal matters seem to prevail? Simple it is not.
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>> Actually Haystack my old mate, most of us here DO KNOW what needs to be
>> done with them.
I've said this before but.......
In the past they'd have held down unskilled work of some type; sweeping floors or humping supplies. Or possibly even quite complex work like parts management if it dovetailed with their fixations. Their workmates would look after them both in keeping them out of trouble and being in a position to apply 'brotherly' pressure when they got out of hand.
Today's world doesn't seem to work like that.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Sun 27 Jan 13 at 19:09
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>>
>> Today's world doesn't seem to work like that.
>>
Brompt, back in those "Good old days" there were just as many armed robbers and burglars as there are today. For the vast majority of criminals it is a lifestyle choice.
Last edited by: Robin Regal on Sun 27 Jan 13 at 19:15
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>> Brompt, back in those "Good old days" there were just as many armed robbers and
>> burglars as there are today. For the vast majority of criminals it is a lifestyle
>> choice.
I was replying to Haywain's point about a lad with foetal alcohol syndrome and others with 'personality' issues not those who are career crims.
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>>It is unfortunate though that nobody had the wit to see that the man was having trouble breathing
As our resident cops have mentioned it is a real concern even for highly trained 'restrainers' - if you are pinning a perp down and he can't breathe properly he'll panic and struggle furiously leading to pinning even tighter - when the perp then stops struggling he is assumed to have settled down.
It's also a real danger in dealing with the mentally ill and laerning difficulties where people have a history of violent outbursts.
30+ yr history of similar sounding behaviour doesn't buy much sympathy in this case - the intent of the customers doesn't appear to have been murderous unless there's a few boot marks on the corpse's head.
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>> 30+ yr history of similar sounding behaviour doesn't buy much sympathy in this case - the intent of the customers doesn't appear to have been murderous unless there's a few boot marks on the corpse's head.
I have to say it does look very like that. But I don't think they'd have dared jump him if say he had put a round into the ceiling to concentrate their minds on the way in.
My postings here have been less bleeding-heart than trying to point to the dangers of this ten-on-one restraint and so on. Fraught excitable situations with the potential for disproportionate violence are risky by definition: I've seen and been caught up in angry and/or frightened mobs here and there and they are, really, damn dangerous. On another level, people sometimes get killed in rugger scrums. It doesn't have to be intentional.
As I said above, the poor silly and probably quite nasty fellow brought it on himself. But I would imagine some of the more sensitive betting shop punters feel quite bad about the outcome.
Last edited by: Armel Coussine on Sun 27 Jan 13 at 18:20
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'No Revenge' say family.
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-21220658
That's big of them.
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It means they're admitting it, like Jimmy Savile's family.
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Aah my mistake. I thought it was that living outside the law and taking matters into their own hands was the norm.
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What it actually means is they no longer can effectively use fear as a tool to run roughshod over the local community.
One of the 'scrum' comes to a sticky end, then everyone knows exactly where to look.
Plenty of nasty families end up being run out of town when they eventually overstep the mark and pick on the wrong section of society.
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>>But I don't think they'd have dared jump him if say he had put a round into the ceiling to concentrate their minds
The lack of hole/dust due to the gun being an imitation may have stopped this working too well... ;-)
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>> The lack of hole/dust due to the gun being an imitation may have stopped this working too well... ;-)
Indeed.
Robbery with an imitation firearm hangs on the robber's ability to make the victims afraid. This one couldn't. He might have had better luck with, say, a couple in their house with children. But he chose a betting shop, whose habitués would include one or two shrewd observant characters perhaps better at that sort of thing than he was himself. Hopeless and pathetic.
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I've never been in a betting shop!
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If you want a really safe bet, I haven't either. :-)
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What are the odds against that?
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I'll put my hands up and say I have been in a bookies more than once, and I was armed both times.
One left arm and one right arm.
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Me ole stepdad used to go down the bookies three or four times a week...just shilling in those days.
He combined the trip with a walk for the dog. The trouble was, he spent so long picking a horse that the dog used to scratch at the door 'til some punter let it out. It would then make it's way safely home, crossing the main road by the zebra crossing !
I've only been in a couple of times...Grand Nat, I think.
Ted
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I never gamble, but I do like a bet on the horses now and again.
The difference? Betting is when you write off the stake you can easily afford as soon as you place the bet. Gambling is when you've put the rent on a horse and you can't afford to lose it.
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I have been to one horse race and found it uninspiring. I went to Catford dog track, won a bit, went again, won a bit, went again, lost it. Stopped!
I used to like one arm bandits and realised that if I let myself I could become a gambler, so I stopped completely.
Confession - I do the National Lottery!
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Me and 'er used to have Greyhounds. Well, one was black actually!! They ran at both Slough (come friendly bombs etc.) and at Oxford. Not massive gamblers, but we enjoyed it very much. It however consumed too much time and money. IF we had been gambling too I guess by now we would have been stuffed. There is only one winner.
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>>They ran at both Slough
I really used to enjoy Slough Dogs with the Father of my girlfriend at the time, a very wise old Cockney; that was in the late 70s / early 80s. I think its gone now.
I remember an owner there told me (actually told GF Father, but I listened) that if a dog won every race it entered, it still could not pay for its own board and keep. And that the only to make a profit as a dog owner was to manipulate the results.
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>> the only to make a profit as a dog owner was to manipulate the results.
Yes, in league with bookies. Dog racing used to be a byword for corruption with all the races fixed. But since it happens with cricket these days, who gives a damn? Don't bet. Just have a mug punt on the National and come in at 33 or better.
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Do the dogs quite a few times a year, Wimbledon mainly. Noticed tho, specially at Peterborough, that most of the money is won on dogs that have no form or record, those with no previous results on the race card. Irish most of them, the dogs is still the most "bent" of all the racing sports.
Its a good night out tho, Dinner, drinks, betting at the table, good view of all the action all the time, and lots of races.
Last edited by: Zero on Mon 28 Jan 13 at 08:08
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The National Lottery and UKIP eh. You do like the odds stacked against you.
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>> The National Lottery and UKIP eh. You do like the odds stacked against you.
>>
:-)
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No betting is what you have to do to gamble. If the amount you are betting is not going to hurt if you lose there is no point in it whatsoever. Playing poker for matchsticks is absolutely no fun at all
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That's NOT funny. But sadly true. I need to get out more, but it's iss ing down here (for a change).
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>> No betting is what you have to do to gamble. If the amount you are
>> betting is not going to hurt if you lose there is no point in it
>> whatsoever. Playing poker for matchsticks is absolutely no fun at all
Not really the case, - the buzz is winning. No-one gambles because the buzz is that you might loose everything you own, thats not the fun..
Mind, the buzz in winning is so great that you can put to one side all that you might loose, but only because you think it wont happen.
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>> the buzz is winning
Absolutely.
We have a poker game on the first Thursday of the month. Its real cut throat stuff and can get quite exciting.
On the worst night ever I lost about 9,000 Peso (+/- £11) after a whole evening of playing. I doubt I've ever won more than that either.
On the other hand business takes me to Las Vegas fairly often, and I find the card tables there absolutely intimidating and just wouldn't ever play. I watch for hours though.
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Been to, and gambled in Vegas a few times. Had a fairly good routine,
Choose a gambling hall not in your hotel, no credit cards, just carry enough cash you put aside to loose, stick to games you know.
Using that, once spent 7 hours at a blackjack table, went in with 50 bucks, free drinks, free snacks, was several hundred dollars up at one point, (enough to attract some eye candy who hung on my arm for a while) was given a free breakfast and left with 50 dollars.
Now that, is good value.
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I have a similar routine with blackjack.
Limited cash, no credit cards, small stakes when losing, ramp up when cards are right, . When winnings exceed initial stake, place initial stake back in pocket.. do not touch.
Then gamble on initial winnings. Same routine. Keep playing until you hve won loads or lost either your initial stake due to no winnings - or all the non back pocket cash you are gambling with.
I usually start with £50 -or less. Not more.. My best night's winnings was £2,545 over several hours. But I have often gone home with nothing.
I have the same routine with on-line blackjack which I play occasionally. But £10 starting stakes so far less winnings - but the risk of losing and putting in more is too great to risk more.. My account is set up so I can only fund it £10 in any one day. Maximum win was £65..
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"Not really the case, - the buzz is winning. No-one gambles because the buzz is that you might loose everything you own, thats not the fun.."
Real gambling is not about fun, its about risk. It's about risking everything. It's about risking your money your livelihood, your house, your family. If you have never made a bet where the consequences of losing are going to be seriously painful you have never gambled.
Last edited by: CGNorwich on Mon 28 Jan 13 at 09:08
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you said it was fun, thats not fun. Your description is what losers are all about.
Last edited by: Zero on Mon 28 Jan 13 at 09:51
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Gambling and losing are ultimately synonymous. You actually know that if you gamble but you still continue. It's fun in the way dangerous sports might be described as fun. If there was no risk climbing a mountain there would be no exhilaration when you succeed. It's the same with gambling. Its literally defying the odds. It the adrenaline rush. As with extreme dangerous sports you know the likelihood is that it will only end one way. It doesn't stop you though.
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The joy of free money far eclipses the sorrow of losing money.
You can spend a tenner in Pret a Manger that has disappeared in minutes and wasn't very nice at the time. Who cares about the tenner?
But the joy of finding a pound coin in the street is considerable. The joy of finding a tenner in the street is much greater.
As for OP, it's sad that somebody's life was lost under such circumstances. A lynch mob/mob justice is not an appropriate way for society to behave, therefore I believe it is wrong to rejoice in his death. At this stage we do not know that he was guilty of anything; the gun may have been held by a different person; he may have been wrongly jumped on just because he was wearing a gas mask as fancy dress - or because Plymouth smells.
Assuming he did what he is said to have done, do I have any sympathy at all? No.
Why ten police cars? Isn't that overkill?
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>> At this stage we do not know that
>> he was guilty of anything; the gun may have been held by a different person;
>> he may have been wrongly jumped on just because he was wearing a gas mask
>> as fancy dress
so he had the misfortune to wander into a bookies, in fancy dress. OK I'll go with that, unlikely as it seems, but a gas mask? And then it just happened to be while some, as yet unknown bloke who escaped, had taken in a gun, and he was mistaken as the gun holder?
>> or because Plymouth smells.
Just a wee bit, but no-one else goes around with gas masks.
Dont get a job as a defence barrister will you.
>>
>> Why ten police cars? Isn't that overkill?
No, there was a gun involved, possibly hostage situation.
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>>
>> Why ten police cars? Isn't that overkill?
>>
Yep, by then the killing was over.
(Tasteless)
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>> Why ten police cars? Isn't that overkill?
>>
No, not at all, nowhere near.
You don't know what you are going in to when as call like that comes through. It is quite common for the 999 call to be substantially inaccurate, so you send what you've got, within reason.
So you'd have numerous unarmed responders (you'd deliberately send a fair number), local safer neighbourhood cops, a number of supervisors, armed response cars (several of them, it's how they operate).
I'm surprised it wasn't noticeably more than 10 vehicles.
How would you manage to properly cordon off a building/area with a gunman in it, if you only sent 2 or 3 single crewed cars..or...a very large man has to be tackled and held down, but the control room only sent three cops, two of whom were 8 stone wet right through? Then there's scene preservation for forensics after an incident, I've had scenes in the past where 12 officers were needed (a bit late when people/cars have tramped right through all your evidence).
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Last time two unarmed policewomen went after a man accused of affray (or whatever) etc they were shot and killed. I suspect if I were the police, that would be factored into my thinking - just a little...
In the USA this debate would not happen.
They have in my view a far more appropriate view of criminals...
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"They have in my view a far more appropriate view of criminals..."
and that's why gun crime is virtually unknown in the U.S.
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>> They have in my view a far more appropriate view of criminals...
I think you mean suspects, and I wouldn't want to be mistaken for one of those in the US either!
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There was the amusing tale of the guy who tried to hold up a busy gunshop and ended up shot 183 times by the customers and staff. But it didn't sound really true, and wasn't.
Dark bars in the Wild West must have been quite dangerous places once any violence started, terrified drunk yokels loosing off single-action cap-and-ball Colt 45s in all directions... there must have been a lot of collateral damage. It is said that Mexico can still get a bit like that sometimes.
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I believe early Colt 45s suffered from cartridges which did not eject properly - hence jamming - which may explain why so many bullets are shot in films but the good guy never gets hit. The bad guys were so busy unjamming their Colts they had no time to aim but just fired at random.
Or were drunk.
Or had not gone to Specsavers.
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>> early Colt 45s suffered from cartridges which did not eject properly
You are thinking of Colt automatics madf. They didn't have those on the wild frontier... cap-and-ball revolvers were muzzle-loaded in effect with powder and a conical bullet, and didn't have new-fangled cartridges. What they did have was surprising range and accuracy in skilled hands. No doubt they misfired sometimes though. Must have saved many a life.
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>> Last time two unarmed policewomen went after a man accused of affray (or whatever) etc
>> they were shot and killed. I suspect if I were the police, that would be
>> factored into my thinking - just a little...
>>
>> In the USA this debate would not happen.
>>
>> They have in my view a far more appropriate view of criminals...
>>
Yeah.
The USA is not the country with the highest rate of death, but it's a lot nearer the top than the bottom.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate
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In the US 60% of firearm deaths are suicides.
In the UK it's 75%.
Does this mean if we arm all our crims they'll kill themselves?
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Armed robber dies when locals grab him in bookies - Robin O'Reliant
