SWM and I had a trip to Gwent and back today by train. I was interested and a bit baffled as to why, on the scrolling information thingy in the coach, some of the English towns we stopped at also had Welsh names along with the English.
I can appreciate the Welsh destinations in both languages, but why the English ? Hereford, Ludlow, Shrewsbury, Crewe but others seemed to have no Welsh equivalent...Stockport, Wilmslow, Church Stretton, etc.
Coming back was worse with ' Mancienium ' as the final destination. In 67 yrs of living here, I've never heard my home city called that !
What's the point ? I doubt there's too many Welsh speakers who didn't know where they were going in English. I suspect Arriva were doing a bit of showing off.
The curious thing was that the emergency/safety/luggage/litter messages on the same board were only in English, as were the loudspeaker announcements.......no trace of Welsh whatsoever !
I was glad it was a through train...I didn't fancy changing at CRYW !
Ted
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>> Mancienium
And in my lifetime the Welsh for Manchester has been Manceinion. Faulty train? Or faulty Ted?
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Sound historical reasons for Hereford, Ludlow and especially Shrewsbury - border towns, Amwythig was part of Brythonic (source of the word Briton) Wales and Cynddylan ruled Pengwern which may have been in the Shrewsbury. Manchester is an Anglicized version of the Roman Mamucium, which in turn may have been a Roman of an earlier Celtic (Brythonic again) name.
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>> Sound historical reasons for Hereford, Ludlow and especially Shrewsbury - border towns, Amwythig was part
>> of Brythonic (source of the word Briton) Wales and Cynddylan ruled Pengwern which may have
>> been in the Shrewsbury. Manchester is an Anglicized version of the Roman Mamucium, which in
>> turn may have been a Roman of an earlier Celtic (Brythonic again) name.
Not sure there were any trains i Roman times?
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>>
>>
>> What's the point ? I doubt there's too many Welsh speakers who didn't know where
>> they were going in English. I suspect Arriva were doing a bit of showing off.
>>
Sounds like a good way of confusing any tourists for starters, I've not seen ''Manceinion' in any tourist guides to the UK.
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Thread drift alert! Apologies that it is from The Wail!
tinyurl.com/yfx23d9
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I sounds to me like another nod to political correctness; next we'll have name signs in a full range of different languages from around the world.
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"Arriva Trains" doesn't sound very Welsh.
Shouldn't it also say " Trenau Cyrraedd" or something like that?
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>> "Arriva Trains" doesn't sound very Welsh.
>
Not very accurate in English either, they often don't "arriva"
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Newport (Gwent) has always been known as CasNewydd in railway speak, to distinguish it from t'other Newports in IOW and Gloucestershire.
The reason for it is to comply with the anally-retentive PC of Welsh language compliance. I don't begrudge the basic principle, despite the fact that I don't speak Welsh myself, but it can get taken to extremes.
Last edited by: Harleyman on Tue 22 Jan 13 at 11:56
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"I've not seen ''Manceinion' in any tourist guides to the UK."
Nor Llundain come to that.
www.sabre-roads.org.uk/gallery/albums/userpics/11973/M4_J32_Llundain.jpg
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Which actuall brings Lud into the discussion!
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Nice that, Pug. They had Llundain Paddington on a notice board at Cwmbran. I've never seen that before either.
I know the French like their Londres but I can't think of any other languages that have a different name for Manchester. Even in Russian, I think, although some of the alphabet is different, it's pronounced about the same.
On the basis of the Welsh having their own name for the city, does it mean they have their own name for every other place in the UK/world ?
Not complaining, doesn't affect me but just interested to know why.
Ted
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Political correctness works in opposite directions sometimes.
The Welsh are busy making sure they use "their" own names for places in other countries, whereas we are seemingly keen to ditch our own long-standing names for foreign places and subscribe to the local name of the moment.
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In pre Pendolino days the c17:00 HST to Holyhead was named 'The Welsh Dragon/ Y Gyddraig Cymraig' on Euston's departure board. I tihnk they showed/still show the Welsh for Holyhead as well.
Never noticed any alternative to Manchester but the french use 'Edinbourg'for Edinburgh on flight departure boards.
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Caergrubby is what Caergybi/Holyhead is known in some circles. And it is still displaye don the trains. Buses around here alternate between Welsh/English on their destination boards. Most plpaces in this part of Wales are known by their original names anyway.
"The Welsh are busy making sure they use "their" own names for places in other countries"
Any examples Cliff ?
Last edited by: R.P. on Tue 22 Jan 13 at 14:26
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>> Any examples Cliff ?
>>
Well, we've just had a few examples - London, Manchester, etc.
Whereas in England the PC thing to do is to painstaking use the latest up to date local name - Mumbai, Beijing, Ho Chi Min City, etc, even though we have had our own names for these places for centuries.
We have got into a bit of a muddle over Burma/Myanmar. Just when we were thinking it was PC to use Myanmar, we discover that An Sang Su She uses Burma as a freedom statement to differentiate her party from the old repressive one.
An irritating Welsh practice on the M4 is to use nearby, local names as reference directions at services rather than a clear East and West, I suppose because statements like N, S E or W are UK concepts rather than regional.
Everytime at one of the services I have a sudden panic on rejoining the motorway - is Neath east or west of Port Talbot?
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Cliff, do you find it unacceptable that people who settle in England don't learn the language/local customs? Same should apply to English folks in Wales, should it not?
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I find in unacceptable that one has to pay to enter Wales over the Severn Bridge, but not the other way round.
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Ah, but it's a return ticket. (Which I expect you know.)
;-)
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Even worse, its explicitly designed to fleece the people form the south of the country, no entry tax into North Wales is there.
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There's always a welcome in these hillsides Zero !
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trouble is its full of scousers.
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Ah, well. I sometimes just set off earlier and enjoy the drive from Reading to Carmarthen (a regular trip for me) via the A40. Wonderful drive, that is. I particularly like the stretch after Crickhowell - Crug Hywel.
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Superb biking roads across the country - no reason to go abroad really, but I do !
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>> Cliff, do you find it unacceptable that people who settle in England don't learn the
>> language/local customs? Same should apply to English folks in Wales, should it not?
>>
I'm not talking about settlers/language/customs etc.
I'm observing the curious contradiction in PC attitudes between one country and another.
It's official in Wales to want to display another country's place names in Welsh (eg the Manchester example).
In England the trend is to defer to the local way of writing a name, rather than using the English (eg Bombay).
Why?
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I'm sorry Cliff, but you're being paranoid. When did you ever see "Caerdydd" and "Abertawe" on the departure boards at Paddington? I don't think I ever have.
Stands by for a photo from Zero showing exactly this..........
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I'm sorry Cliff, but you're being paranoid. When did you ever see "Caerdydd" and "Abertawe"
>> on the departure boards at Paddington? I don't think I ever have.
>>
>> Stands by for a photo from Zero showing exactly this..........
Cant, BUT as a bit of fun i will start a new contest thread of something I did photo.
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>> It's official in Wales to want to display another country's place names in Welsh (eg
>> the Manchester example).
>> In England the trend is to defer to the local way of writing a name,
>> rather than using the English (eg Bombay).
>>
>> Why?
I don't think there's a real contradiction Cliff. The Indians have adopted new names for their cities to better reflect their history and local etymology etc. We've (rightly) gone along with that.
There's a much longer history between Wales and England. They've always had their own names for at least some places in England, particularly along the border. Manchester is new to me and I wonder if it's an oddity, and attempt to translate rather than a reflection of history.
Manchester only grew up in the 18th 19th centuries and I wouldn't have thought it had the significance of say Oswestry to those over Offa's Dyke.
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My favourite is Efrog which is I understand York.
I suppose that also gives us Newydd Efrog - it's a wonderful town, but it doesn't quite scan!
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>> My favourite is Efrog which is I understand York.
>>
>> I suppose that also gives us Newydd Efrog - it's a wonderful town, but it
>> doesn't quite scan!
Newydd Efrog, Newydd Efrog sounds worse.
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The Welsh for New York is: Efrog Newydd. You've assumed the words are the same way around in Welsh and English. New York City of course is then Dinas Efrod Newydd.
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>> My favourite is Efrog which is I understand York.
Jorvik, surely?
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"In England the trend is to defer to the local way of writing a name, rather than using the English (eg Bombay)."
Wouldn't say it was much of a trend
Does anyone in England use these local names instead of the English exonym ?.
Roma
Caerdydd
Moskva
Warszawa
Koln
Firenza
Lisboa
Bruxelles
Wien
Munchen
Napoli
Den Haag
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>> I would have guessed.
Now Guess which 4 smart alec.
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smart alec?
Moi?
I could mutter something about pots, kettles and overall levels of blackness but I won't.
Now which cities would you refer to by their local names and why?
I'll guess
Roma
Napoli
Lisboa
Munchen
Football?
Firenza should of course be Firenze. Firenza was a sort of Vauxhall Viva I think
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Roma
Napoli
Firenze
And
Den Haag.
HA! (places fingers in L shape on forehead and shouts "In your face LEEEEWSER" very loudly.
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The thing is I suspect you really might.
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>> Firenza
It's Firenze......
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>>
>> I know the French like their Londres but I can't think of any other languages
>> that have a different name for Manchester. Even in Russian, I think, although some of
>> the alphabet is different, it's pronounced about the same.
>>
>> On the basis of the Welsh having their own name for the city, does it
>> mean they have their own name for every other place in the UK/world ?
>>
>> Not complaining, doesn't affect me but just interested to know why.
>>
>> Ted
>>
It is a funny old game, what some countries call cities in other countries. Whilst the capital of Finland is Helsinki to Finns (pronounced as in English), to the Swedes it's Helsingfors which definately doesn't sound the same in English. And Göteborg (sort of yacht-en-bury)sounds a long long way from Gothenburg.
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All damn Johnny foreigners should be made to speak and write in correct English...innit ?
Ted
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As a Welsh person living in S Wales I guess we are used to the bilingual road signs etc, but yes, it is pathetic and pointless isn't it, driven by absurd political correctness. I was particularly amused to see the Welsh slogan for Don't drink and Drive displayed as I drove east towards England on the Severn Bridge the other day! How utterly pointless! What percentage of people driving across the Bridge actually understand it written in Welsh?!!! I would like to know just how much it costs for this bilingual strategy, when the money could be spent far better by our (equally pointless) Welsh Assembly on more useful things like filling in the pot-holes and buying some decent kit for hospitals.
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Arriva trains Wales. - rtj70
