"Smuggling illegal migrants out of Britain is much easier than breaking in to the country" according to a trafficker.
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-21014676
Goes to prove there's two sides to every coin. Will the coalition get any praise from the right wing for this? It is clearly implied in the piece that changes since the last general election have caused this situation.
|
|
I suspect the price (and number of customers) to get in is higher.
|
|
Well the price would be higher, if it's more difficult to get in than out.
|
|
Not really, market forces apply.
|
Huh? That's what I'm saying. Market forces would state that if it's more difficult/higher risk for a trafficker to get someone in than to get someone out, he'll charge a higher price for the service. More complex IT installation will be cheaper than easy ones, as you need more skills and resources to do the more difficult job. If it was easy to do, more providers would enter the market, bringing down prices, and people would try to DIY it.
Anyway, the main point is that this story should help put to bed the myth that the UK is a soft touch for illegal immigrants, and the number 1 target for economic migrants. We're just one of many desirable countries and by far and away not the easiest to get in to, despite what we are told by the likes of UKIP and BNP.
|
>> Huh? That's what I'm saying. Market forces would state that if it's more difficult/higher risk
>> for a trafficker to get someone in than to get someone out, he'll charge a
>> higher price for the service.
There is a complexity factor of course, but market forces say that the more people want your service the more you charge for it.
And the point about the UK not being the main target is of course tosh. There are more trying to get in than get out. Really not sure how you could reach your conclusion.
Last edited by: Zero on Mon 21 Jan 13 at 12:34
|
Well, evidently people are leaving due to it having become a harder place to work illegally. I'm not saying this has always been the case, but that this is seems to be a new situation, occurring since the coalition government's policies have started to take effect.
Previously, there wasn't any evidence of illegal immigrants trying to flee the country to the extent that they were willing to pay people to smuggle them out, there is now. Well done to the government, surely? That's what I'm trying to say. Whether more are trying to get in than out isn't part of the point I'm raising, and frankly I don't see your evidence for that claim anyway, but no matter, the point is that we seem to be reversing the situation regarding illegal immigration, which the right wing are so keen to point at. Will they be keen to give credit where it's due now? Perhaps they will say that more can and must be done, but isn't this a start, a step in the right direction for them? Can we expect Farage to congratulate the government?
|
Surely these people could leave the UK legally simply by presenting themselves to UKBA and asking to be deported.
In fact I suspect most of them wish to leave as 'fugitives from justice'. It's that rather than the broken dream of a good income/housing etc (whether from pay or benefits) that brought them to UK that justifies £1500 to get away.
|
>> Surely these people could leave the UK legally simply by presenting themselves to UKBA and
>> asking to be deported.
Then they would be sent home. Home is not where they want to be.
|
Well illegal immigration is in and of itself a criminal act, so yes you can say they are all criminals.
The BBC article states: "Some want to try their luck elsewhere in the EU instead of going to their home country, others are criminals." So there aren't that many who would benefit from being officially deported by UKBA, as they'd be going home, which isn't where they want to go. They've got their sights set on other EU countries. Which proves we aren't the only country people want to emigrate to illegally, just one of a number of attractive choices.
|
>> where they want to go. They've got their sights set on other EU countries. Which
>> proves we aren't the only country people want to emigrate to illegally, just one of
>> a number of attractive choices.
There you go again making wildly inaccurate conclusions not backed up by anything int he article. . "Just one of a number of attractive" . They came here first because it was and is the most attractive.
If your assertion were true there would be no camps of would be illegal immigrants ion France. Now, please do try and tell me they are queuing up to go elsewhere.
|
|
As an aside, there was a time, cant be bothered to check now, that the BNP had a policy of paying migrants to leave, so rather hilarious that they are now paying to leave, what a weird world it is.
|
|
That policy was nowt to do with illegal immigrants, FoR. As usual, the issues of illegal and legal immigration are confused by the right wing. The BNP wanted (I think it still does but stand to be corrected by someone who can stomach their website) to pay people who were legally settled to leave. I don't think they'd be the sort of organisation to offer people who are here illegally money to leave.
|
>>That policy was nowt to do with illegal immigrants, FoR. As usual, the issues of illegal and legal immigration are confused by the right wing. The BNP wanted (I think it still does but stand to be corrected by someone who can stomach their website) to pay people who were legally settled to leave. I don't think they'd be the sort of organisation to offer people who are here illegally money to leave.<<
It wasnt a case of confusing the two chap, I wasnt sure who it applied to and I stated I wasnt going to look up the exact policy because like you, I cant stomach their website.
It is not beyond the realms of possibility that the BNP would seek to make cash payments to 'illegals' who turned themselves in for deportation though I wouldnt trust them!
Im afraid unwillingness to access BNP material is not exclusive to the far left, much as you would like it to be.
|
>> Im afraid unwillingness to access BNP material is not exclusive to the far left, much
>> as you would like it to be.
??? No comprendo. Clear case of putting words in my mouth there. And I'd hardly characterise myself as "far left".
|
>>And I'd hardly characterise myself as "far left" <<
Be proud, own it :-)
|
>> They came here first
And how do you know that? That's the point of illegals, no-one knows exactly what they are doing because they aren't being counted anywhere.
But I'm just making the point that there are obviously other places just as "easy" and "attractive" if there is now a lucrative market in shipping people out of the UK. If there weren't, they would do everything they can to hang on here, not fork out to go somewhere else if it's so "easy" here.
|
>> >> They came here first
>>
>> And how do you know that?
Because they said so. All of them say they want to come to the UK. Thats why most of them leave home. To come here.
|
|
And now they're paying to leave the UK because the grass is greener elsewhere. That's my point. What's your point? So the country is ceasing to be the first choice, soft touch so fondly imagined by many, even if it was such a thing in the first place. Who was it talking about Zero and his circular arguments the other day? Hope it wasn't John H, I'd hate to be seen in the same camp as him! ;-)
|
My point is you are are drawing conclusions you want to draw to meet your agenda are not based on anything supported by the argument. Like this one for example.
>> soft touch so fondly imagined by many, even if it was such a thing in
>> the first place.
600,000 Thats not imagination. 600,000. Its in that article yet you choose to ignore that because it does not meet your needs.
Nothing circular about me sunshine, Look to yourself. You were trying to bend an article to suit your point of view.
|
>> 600,000 Thats not imagination. 600,000. Its in that article yet you choose to ignore that
>> because it does not meet your needs.
And you don't set that in the context of the numbers estimated to be in other countries, without which the figure is meaningless in terms of this discussion.
>> Nothing circular about me sunshine, Look to yourself. You were trying to bend an article
>> to suit your point of view.
??? I'm merely raising the article for discussion and asking if the government should be given credit for this, and asking if anyone thinks that the usual right wing sources such as UKIP and the BNP will acknowledge there's any credit and support to be given to the government, seeing as how one of their main policy objectives seems to be happening, that of reversing the trend of illegal immigration and making the UK a less attractive place to be an illegal.
You're trying to tie this in knots, not me, "sunshine".
|
Not me sunshine, I am not the one trying to twist it and add bits for his own agenda, I am merely kicking your butt for doing it.
Edit - and before you say you didnt, here it is -
Anyway, the main point is that this story should help put to bed the myth that the UK is a soft touch for illegal immigrants, and the number 1 target for economic migrants.
Last edited by: Zero on Mon 21 Jan 13 at 13:43
|
- Previously n people coming in, and apparently 0 leaving.
- Now presumably n people still coming in, but x leaving.
So before nobody was leaving, now some are moving out.
Reason allegedly tightening up of rules, regs & enforcement in the UK by Coalition.
So, less illegals in the country today than there would have been without said tightening.
Illegals leaving will presumably begin to give messages to others wanting to come in illegally that perhaps will bring some discouragement and future drop in numbers.
Seems at the very least a good start.
Not really seeing where the bending either is or is required.
|
|
I will add however, that illegal immigrants is not just a UK issue, its an EU issue. Places in the world have their favourite country of choice. Italy, Greece, Spain, France, Germany all have their share of the influx.
|
As Zero said...
" Italy, Greece, Spain, France, Germany all have their share of the influx."
Or as Alanovic said...
"They've got their sights set on other EU countries. Which proves we aren't the only country people want to emigrate to illegally, just one of a number of attractive choices"
Ahh, I see where the disagreement is.... oh, hold on a minute, no I don't.
|
>> As Zero said...
>>
>> " Italy, Greece, Spain, France, Germany all have their share of the influx."
>>
>> Or as Alanovic said...
>>
>> "They've got their sights set on other EU countries. Which proves we aren't the only
>> country people want to emigrate to illegally, just one of a number of attractive choices"
>>
>>
>> Ahh, I see where the disagreement is.... oh, hold on a minute, no I don't.
Not reading it properly then are you.
Anyway, the main point is that this story should help put to bed the myth that the UK is a soft touch for illegal immigrants, and the number 1 target for economic migrants.
Thats my dispute.
|
>>Anyway, the main point is that this story should help put to bed the myth that the UK is a
>>soft touch for illegal immigrants, and the number 1 target for economic migrants.
I'm not usually the densest person around, but surely A'vic as quoted here is correct?
Surely it *will* help to put to bed the myth that the UK is a soft touch?
And any discouragement is good, right?
Last edited by: No FM2R on Mon 21 Jan 13 at 13:50
|
|
Why a myth? It is a soft touch. Of course discouragement is good.
Last edited by: Zero on Mon 21 Jan 13 at 13:51
|
>> Why a myth? It is a soft touch.
If it was a soft touch, they wouldn't need the camps in Calais and they wouldn't need to take the risks of suffocating/freezing to death in lorries to get here. It would be easy. And cheap.
|
>> >> Why a myth? It is a soft touch.
>>
>> If it was a soft touch, they wouldn't need the camps in Calais and they
>> wouldn't need to take the risks of suffocating/freezing to death in lorries to get here.
>> It would be easy. And cheap.
>
I am talking about being here, not getting in.
|
>>Why a myth? It is a soft touch.
Got you. So the issue is that Alanovic said it was a myth whereas you maintain it really is a soft touch?
But if it really was a soft touch, then why are the illegals who know what it is like here trying to leave, and only the potential illegals who do not know what it is like are trying to get in?
Sort of like they think its a soft touch but when they get here find out that its not.
Kind of like a myth, really.
|
600,000 of them dont think so.
Of course what the article fails to say is "how many" are trying to get out.
|
|
So you think people from some countries favour other EU states over the UK, but taken as a whole the UK is the no 1 target for illegal immigrants worldwide? Is that it? That's just speculation, really. Sure, it's pretty high up the list. Perhaps even challenging for the title. Which means we live in a pretty special place. But I don't see how it can be stated as fact.
|
>> So you think people from some countries favour other EU states over the UK, but
>> taken as a whole the UK is the no 1 target for illegal immigrants worldwide?
>> Is that it?
Yes with caveats. Mexicans try to get into the states, and peoples in the far east try to get into Australia. hats a matter of simple Geography.
>>That's just speculation, really. Sure, it's pretty high up the list. Perhaps
>> even challenging for the title. Which means we live in a pretty special place.
We agree then. Its no myth. Glad you finally admitted it.
|
>> We agree then. Its no myth. Glad you finally admitted it.
>>
Err, no. I didn't say anything about agreeing we're a soft touch, even if we're high up the list of destinations (which we would be, because we're high up in the list of prosperous countries - for the time being).
So you think it's a soft touch when they get here, not a soft country to get in to - glad you agree with the second part of that now.
So how's it soft when they get here?
|
>> So how's it soft when they get here?
Well its obvious, the 15 bed council house in Kensington with the swimming pool of course.
|
Ah. Back to the Royal Family again. Nicely played.
;-)
|
|
But you, Zero, say that illegals target the UK above any other country because there are camps in Calais? Well, they don't need camps anywhere else in the EU because the UK is the only member without at least one completely open border. Except, perhaps, Greece, due to its geographical isolation from the rest of the EU. And that's a much easier target from Africa, for obvious reasons. The UK is just about the most difficult country in the EU to get in to, and it's getting harder. You wouldn't need to set up a camp to smuggle people from Italy to France, for example.
Last edited by: Alanović on Mon 21 Jan 13 at 13:45
|
>> But you, Zero, say that illegals target the UK above any other country because there
>> are camps in Calais? Well, they don't need camps anywhere else in the EU because
>> the UK is the only member without at least one completely open border. Except, perhaps,
>> Greece, due to its geographical isolation from the rest of the EU. And that's a
>> much easier target from Africa, for obvious reasons. The UK is just about the most
>> difficult country in the EU to get in to, and it's getting harder. You wouldn't
>> need to set up a camp to smuggle people from Italy to France, for example.
So why do they camp in France to get here? Why not just stay in France? or Italy? If its just as attractive? And if its so hard why do they keep trying?
Last edited by: Zero on Mon 21 Jan 13 at 13:49
|
>> Why not just stay in
>> France? or Italy?
Plenty do. Some have personal reasons for trying to get further.
|
|
Maybe long lost family or maybe they feel more welcome all these maybees.>:)
|
>> Maybe long lost family or maybe they feel more welcome all these maybees.>:)
Actually, for those from the Indian sub continent, the presence of cultural and economic support from their UK resident kin may be a factor.
Others, from the Balkans, Eastern Europe and beyond find employment in the extensive black economy that the UK appears unable to eliminate.
|
>>Others, from the Balkans, Eastern Europe and beyond find employment in the extensive black economy that the UK appears unable to eliminate. <<
news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/8260088.stm
Im sure it is not an isolated case, but if it happened under her nose, what chance is there really?
|
FoR, that story is 3-4 years old, and happened under the Labour government. Find us some which have happened under the current government, which is what we're talking about here. Perhaps you can, I don't know.
Point is we're talking about current trends, not historical ones. And it seems to be that illegals are starting to leave our shores in a hurry, under conditions that they would not want (i.e. having to pay to do so). Surely you, as a UKIP supporter, should welcome this and congratulate the government?
|
I know how old the story is but it is the most high profile one given the position she occupied in the first place.
How many illegals are leaving? Without some kind of numbers it is pure guess work, the article didnt give any indication so why are they 'in a hurry'? How do you know?
>>Surely you, as a UKIP supporter, should welcome this and congratulate the government?<<
For allowing illegal immigrants to fall into the hands of gangs that exploit them? You congratulate them if you like, I think it is a disgrace and these gangs need to be pursued relentlessly.
I wish people would come to the UK through proper channels but I fully recognise how vunerable they are to exploitation and I consider these gangs to be criminals whereas I have a great deal of sympathy for the reasons that people travel great distances to come here, illegally or not.
|
>> so why are they 'in a hurry'? How do
>> you know?
Because they're paying large sums to do so.
Yes, I get your point about it being undesirable that people are driven in to the hands of criminal traffickers. I agree. But the fact they are doing so means that we are making it tougher and tougher for illegal immigrants to flourish here. Do you not wish to support the government in this endeavour? If not, why do you support a party for whom it is one of their major policy pillars?
|
>>Because they're paying large sums to do so.<<
That is what this 'service' costs with this particular gang and I imagine if you are an illegal immigrant, it isnt like you can go on Comparethemarket.com and look for a better deal.
Unless you can say for sure when gangs started providing the service, it is hard to say if it was government policy or if it is economic, or indeed another reason, that is the difficulty when dealing with people that we dont know are here and we dont have accurate records on.
If an illegal immigrant wants to leave they only need turn themselves in and they get to leave for free after all.
>>Do you not wish to support the government in this endeavour? If not, why do you support a party for whom it is one of their major policy pillars?<<
I wish the government to make it easier for people to migrate here legally, the points system is harsh to the point that it encourages people to try and bypass it so it is counterproductive in that sense.
I support the tackling of illegal immigration of course, but they must also tackle the gangs as a separate issue and not just those gangs but the other gangs involved in sex trafficking etc - ive no doubt these are much the same people simply exploiting the various ways there are to exploit illegal immigrants, it is a criminal industry.
|
"I wish the government to make it easier for people to migrate here legally,"
What??? The biggest problem possessed by this country is that of overcrowding. Or, am I being a racist when I say that the bus is full - it is already an overcrowded bus - there is simply no more room!
When are people going to get this into their heads?
|
>>What??? The biggest problem possessed by this country is that of overcrowding. Or, am I being a racist when I say that the bus is full - it is already an overcrowded bus - there is simply no more room!<<
Look at it like this, if you make something too hard, too bigger hurdle to leap, then people simply dodge it. I know this because I have been helping my brother-in-law fill in the forms and meet the requirements to settle here with my sister and their kids. He is well educated, well paid currently and an anglophile of the highest order, but even HE has trouble meeting every requirement, especially the financial ones which for a young family are hard when you have a mortgage to pay and kids to feed.
With that in mind, if you are a young, poor Somali, for instance, what on earth would be the point of even trying to do it officially? Is he really going to land a job paying £18k+ in the UK from a slum somewhere to meet the financial requirement? Unlikely, so the ONLY option is to come in the back of a lorry or claim asylum.
Im not sure what the perfect solution is, but I dont think THAT is because you are simply feeding the problem.
|
|
Criminals will travel anywhere in Europe to ply their trade .Big bussiness in London with foreign prostitution plenty of money to be made.Of course it's not that easy here.Unless you know how to fiddle the system.I never got away with anything and I am a legal immigrant.
|
|
Oh heck - I agree with Zero. That'll curdle the milk in his tea!
|
"Illegal immigrants paying to leave the UK"
Can anyone tell me how I can donate?
|
Illegal immigrants paying to leave the UK - Zero
