| Non-motoring > MP pay | Miscellaneous |
| Thread Author: Slidingpillar | Replies: 37 |
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New Fri 11 Jan 13 19:26
MP pay - Slidingpillar
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www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-20978487 Actually, some of them, 3p would be more like it. Would know the meaning of work if it bit them. |
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New Fri 11 Jan 13 19:33
MP pay - No FM2R
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>But the survey found that 69% thought they were underpaid on their current salary of £65,738. I too think that they are underpaid at this level. I support the idea that they should be paid appropriately, and I'm not even sure that £90k covers it. I'd support double that. HOWEVER, now lets talk about the performance, behaviour, duties and performance that we, the electorate, believe comes with such a pay grade....... Perhaps we could maintain their salary at its current levels, but bring in annual performance and achievement awards against agreed targets and metrics where the constituency votes on their performance level? At the moment I do not believe that they are underpaid as much as they under-perform. |
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New Fri 11 Jan 13 19:36
MP pay - Zero
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you also have to take into account that MP's salary is merely a small part of the total income thy can achieve for being an MP. Maybe we should link pay to House of commons attendance and constituency surgery hours. Last edited by: Zero on Fri 11 Jan 13 at 19:37
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New Fri 11 Jan 13 19:40
MP pay - Slidingpillar
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| Performance related pay - yes that a good idea, some would owe us money! |
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New Fri 11 Jan 13 19:52
MP pay - Fursty Ferret
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| How about we get rid of the subsidised bar in the House of Commons before we discuss a pay rise? |
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New Fri 11 Jan 13 19:57
MP pay - No FM2R
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That's a step too far, since I take advantage of that sometimes. How about we just make them work harder against given KPIs? The rest of us have to. |
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New Fri 11 Jan 13 21:05
MP pay - spamcan61
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>> >> How about we just make them work harder against given KPIs? The rest of us >> have to. >> Spiffing idea. KPIs to include GDP, unemployment level, interest rates (Ok that's a trickier one) |
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New Sat 12 Jan 13 12:52
MP pay - sooty123
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| Is it actually true that it's that subsidised? If so who much are we talking? I've seen it talked about a lot but never any real detail, I did wonder if it is an urban myth. |
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New Sat 12 Jan 13 13:51
MP pay - CGNorwich
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>> Is it actually true that it's that subsidised? If so who much are we talking? >> I've seen it talked about a lot but never any real detail, I did wonder >> if it is an urban myth. www.parliament.uk/site-information/foi/foi-responses/foi-disclosures-2011/foi-disclosures-july---september-2011/bars-in-the-house-of-commons/ |
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New Sat 12 Jan 13 14:05
MP pay - sooty123
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| Thanks, not really subsidised. More the prices kept cheap, although I suspect someone could argue the retail/bars are subsidised £5.7m. |
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New Sat 12 Jan 13 17:36
MP pay - Cockle
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>> >> Is it actually true that it's that subsidised? If so who much are we >> talking? >> >> I've seen it talked about a lot but never any real detail, I did >> wonder >> >> if it is an urban myth. >> >> >> >> www.parliament.uk/site-information/foi/foi-responses/foi-disclosures-2011/foi-disclosures-july---september-2011/bars-in-the-house-of-commons/ >> >> So the bars and catering facilities are allowed to make an annual loss of £5.7m per annum, even after profits from souvenir sales are included, so in reality it's actually higher. I'd like to make the suggestion that these loss-making catering operations are closed down thus saving at least £5.7m a year, our works canteen was shut down five years ago because it was losing £10k p.a., from these savings they could then have a wage increase..... |
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New Fri 11 Jan 13 20:02
MP pay - Zero
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>> How about we get rid of the subsidised bar in the House of Commons before >> we discuss a pay rise? thats the only place they are productive, |
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New Fri 11 Jan 13 20:08
MP pay - Lygonos
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Once they start using evidence -based measures to trial their stupid (and occasionally not-so-stupid) schemes that are designed on the back of fag packets from their own agendas I'd consider them worth the money. As it is they dribble out partisan crap to satisfy their team keep their jobs, and don't give a chunk for the eventual cost it has for society as a whole. If NoFM2R advised businesses to run entirely using political dogma without an evidence basis I've a funny feeling his KPIs would be a bit light, and his girls would be going to comprehensive soon ;-) |
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New Fri 11 Jan 13 20:14
MP pay - Robin O'Reliant
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| There probably is a case for saying they are underpaid in relation to what people of similar responsibility earn outside of Parliament. But for them to be actually saying so when they have just frozen benefits and half the country have not only gone without a pay rise for 5 years but are in fear of losing their jobs is the definition of bad timing. |
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New Fri 11 Jan 13 20:48
MP pay - No FM2R
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>>If NoFM2R advised businesses to run entirely using political dogma without an evidence basis I've a funny feeling his KPIs would be a bit light, and his girls would be going to comprehensive soon ;-) I'm not even sure I know what you just said. So I'll go with history and deny it and assume that you're entirely misguided. However, you would be the first person ever who suggested my KPIs are light. And I'm not even addressing the girls @UK Comprehensive point. |
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New Fri 11 Jan 13 21:04
MP pay - Bromptonaut
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>> >> I'm not even sure I know what you just said. So I'll go with history >> and deny it and assume that you're entirely misguided. >> >> However, you would be the first person ever who suggested my KPIs are light. And >> I'm not even addressing the girls @UK Comprehensive point. >> I think the point was about policy based evidence making or perhaps even the lack of any evidence whatsoever for the efficacy of govt policy. Difficult to devise KPIs for stuff anybody with an ounce of management or policy implementation sense can tell ain't going anywhere. |
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New Fri 11 Jan 13 21:51
MP pay - No FM2R
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>>Difficult to devise KPIs for stuff anybody with an ounce of management or policy implementation sense can tell ain't going anywhere. Lets nail 'em for timekeeping! (tic). But they could set their own KPIs. e.g. I stand for Dunny-on-the-Wold and state that I will target unemployment of n%, will reduce spending by y% and increase speed limits by 10%. You vote for me and appoint me with my campaign promises my KPIs. Like all good management schemes, you don't care how I achieve it, you won't judge me by my behaviour, you will judge me by my success or not against our agreed KPIs and reward me appropriately. |
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New Fri 11 Jan 13 23:59
MP pay - Lygonos
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>>Like all good management schemes, you don't care how I achieve it, you won't judge me by my behaviour, you will judge me by my success or not against our agreed KPIs and reward me appropriately. And like all target-based systems the targets get the priority. See also Staffordshire hospitals for how to make a killing while you are making a killing. Edit: just in case Mark doesn't know about these events - this is what happens when KPI becomes everything to the management: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stafford_Hospital_scandal Last edited by: Lygonos on Sat 12 Jan 13 at 00:01
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New Sat 12 Jan 13 00:05
MP pay - No FM2R
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>>And like all target-based systems the targets get the priority. Totally correct, I could not agree more with either the statement or the dislike of the potential results. But maybe then people will see the connection between what they vote for and what they get. And if they don't like what they get, then maybe they'll take voting a bit more seriously. Because isn't it amazing how few people admit to reading Europe's largest circulation newspaper, and how few people admit responsibility for the person they voted for and the reasons they voted for them. Or even take responsibility for not voting. As far as I can see the average voter wants; A more efficient health service, where the nurses and doctors get more money Less expenditure More prisons But NIMBY and less expenditure More people jailed See above... Less tax more spending etc. etc. etc. |
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New Sat 12 Jan 13 00:05
MP pay - No FM2R
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>> just in case Mark doesn't know about these events Thank you, but I did. And for once we're on the same side (I think, unless you think we're not, in which case I never thought we were either). |
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New Sat 12 Jan 13 00:11
MP pay - Lygonos
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>> (I think, unless you think we're not, in which case I never thought we were either). Heh heh - made me chuckle :-) Difficulty with being able to use votes to judge who is best for the job also lies in what is not said in the manifesto/pre-election pledges. Yes, I got unemployment down 10% in the area - thank you for my £100k bonus for managing that. That I managed it by bringing in 2 meat rendering plants, a waste incinerator plant, and a sex offender rehabilitation halfway house dealing with 1000 sex offenders is by-the-by. Of course might not get the vots next time round but that pension is gold plated after all... :-) Last edited by: Lygonos on Sat 12 Jan 13 at 00:12
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New Fri 11 Jan 13 20:19
MP pay - Manatee
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They probably do get double their current pay when allowances and other opportunities are taken into account. But the salary is irrelevant anyway for the wealthy ones like the Bullingdon boys and Nick Clegg, to name but three. I can see the argument that 150-200k would be reasonable, especially given the potentially limited tenure (though that applies to many trades now) of many seats, the public exposure entailed, and the commitment and qualities desirable But they shouldn't be in it for the money. And performance related pay for MPs is a terrible idea! |
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New Sat 12 Jan 13 00:21
MP pay - Harleyman
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>> They probably do get double their current pay when allowances and other opportunities are taken >> into account. But the salary is irrelevant anyway for the wealthy ones like the Bullingdon >> boys and Nick Clegg, to name but three. >> >> I can see the argument that 150-200k would be reasonable, especially given the potentially limited >> tenure (though that applies to many trades now) of many seats, the public exposure entailed, >> and the commitment and qualities desirable But they shouldn't be in it for the money. >> >> And performance related pay for MPs is a terrible idea! >> >> I 'd suggest that very few MP's are seriously wealthy before they enter the House of Commons; probably a lower percentage today than twenty years ago. I do not, however, think that they're worth a six-figure salary before expenses are taken into consideration. They're pretty much guaranteed a job for a minimum of five years, a job which although admittedly highly responsible also carries with it a wealth (quite literally) of priveleges and perks which the vast majority of the people who are actually paying for them never get to see. In my case I can be out of work with a month's salary in lieu of notice, and I certainly don't get my employer paying the mortgage or rent on my first house let alone my second, at least not on top of my wages. Senior ministers apart, the vast majority of MP's are merely bums on seats whose function in life is to toe the pary line and walk through the appropriate door at the behest of the party whips. You are quite right to say that they shouldn't be in it for the money. Unfortunately many of them are; if not the salary itself then the lifestyle and privelege that goes with it. Jack Straw, for example, commands a fee of £4,000 for an after-dinner speech. Nice work if you can get it. The trtadition of public service is gone forever in this country; whatever its faults, kicking the hereditary peers out of the House of Lords and replacing them with faceless cronies put paid to the last bastion of that notion. The fact remains that it must be a lucrative career, given that so many MP's nowadays do very little in the way of what we would call real work before entering parliament. |
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New Sat 12 Jan 13 01:21
MP pay - No FM2R
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>>You are quite right to say that they shouldn't be in it for the money I don't mind if they're in it for the money. In fact, it makes life easier if they are. I want them; 1) to want to be a politician. 2) to connect longevity as a politician with voter satisfaction. And I honestly believe that both of those things are currently true. Emphatically so. But also I want the voter; 1) to take responsibility for his vote, whether exercised or not. 2) to understand what he's voting for [or not]. So much as I dislike politicians, they're not the problem. The public is. Regrettably we get the politicians we want and deserve. |
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New Sat 12 Jan 13 04:40
MP pay - PeterS
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| At the risk of sounding like I'm defending MPs, I expect if you were to carry out a survey on pay in any organisation the results would show a majority wanting more!! |
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New Sat 12 Jan 13 10:43
MP pay - Roger.
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At lobby fodder level the pay, plus all you can fiddle is more than enough. For the majority, the job has no real responsibility, no call for original thought and no requirement to turn up for work every day. To me and many others, that level of income is beyond the dreams of avarice. |
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New Sat 12 Jan 13 11:34
MP pay - Bromptonaut
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The Lobby Fodder bit is certainly true and a fair few junior ministers only survive on the work of their Civil Servants. But to be honest the main part of the job is not being in the House and voting; it's constituent casework and perhaps membership of select committees. There might also be other stuff in the constituency/town. One of Northampton's MPs chairs the rail user group and both Sally Keeble and Brian Binley have been assiduous in this. The days of the knights of the Shires are long gone. An MP who's not pulling his weight and more besides will soon meet the dissatisfaction of his constituency party. The problem with pay is that it lacks transparency. A housing allowance for those with constituencies outside the commuter belt is reasonable as is travel by rail or by air. The secretarial stuff seems very prone to fiddles but trying to change it creates hard cases both ways. It may be quite reasonable to employ the wife as a secretary (and employing the secretary as a wife ain't rare either). A decent MP might also need researchers if they're going to be on a committee or pursue particular interests be they aviation or abortion. |
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New Sat 12 Jan 13 12:44
MP pay - Roger.
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| www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/fleetstreetfox-dear-mps-your-employers-1529477 |
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New Sat 12 Jan 13 13:26
MP pay - madf
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"An MP who's not pulling his weight and more besides will soon meet the dissatisfaction of his constituency party. " You are joking of course. See that awful woman on Ant and Dec's reality rubbish and the Labour MP who had not held a constituency surgery for 10 years (Sheffield)? and the Labour MPs for Central Glasgow who never did anything so when they died and there was no consituency party apparatus the SNP won big time - the prior MP won on a personal vote! In parts of Cheshire, a Tory husband and wife team fiddled expenses for years and years - and there was that MP Hamilton who was reselected by his constituency party despite the national party saying he was a disgrace.. |
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New Sat 12 Jan 13 13:46
MP pay - Bromptonaut
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>> You are joking of course. >> >> See that awful woman on Ant and Dec's reality rubbish and the Labour MP who >> had not held a constituency surgery for 10 years (Sheffield)? and the Labour MPs for >> Central Glasgow who never did anything so when they died and there was no consituency >> party apparatus the SNP won big time - the prior MP won on a personal >> vote! >> >> In parts of Cheshire, a Tory husband and wife team fiddled expenses for years and >> years - and there was that MP Hamilton who was reselected by his constituency party >> despite the national party saying he was a disgrace.. Hamilton was 1997; a different era. The expenses scandal was a gamechanger. Nicholas and Ann Winterton were blown out by their expenses, no comment on their effectiveness as MPs. I think the 10 years no surgery thing was the late Stuart Bell (Middlesbrough), he was still accessible to his constituents. Obviously there will be exceptions and one suspects in the Glasgow case the absence of constituency party allowed the MP to misbehave rather than other way round. Nadine Dorries is not likely to be reselected and if the boundary changes go through her seat goes with it. |
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New Sat 12 Jan 13 18:47
MP pay - Armel Coussine
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There's a story, I hope apocryphal, that Quintin Hogg dressed in the Lord Chancellor's reeking 17th century costume with full fig and wig, flanked by black-coated red box bearers and aides, was bearing down on a group of American tourists in one of Westminster's capacious corridors when he spotted the MP Neil Hamilton behind them. Holding up an imperious forefinger, he called over their heads: 'Neil!', whereat they all fell to their knees. Much more respectable, and a nice man in a po-faced way, was Willie Hamilton (Lab., somewhere in Fife). He wasn't at all left wing but had a bee in his bonnet about the monarchy. I did some research for him when he was writing a book that eventually came out under the title 'My Queen and I', something like that. I ferreted out a slew of quotes on the subject from Bagehot, Marx, Engels and so forth. He rejected the latter out of hand calling it 'bilge' - far from it I thought - and in the end didn't use much of my stuff if any, but gave me a credit in the book anyway. The pay wasn't princely either needless to say. MPs like him who live on their salaries aren't rich at all and work in sleazy lower-middle-management conditions. It was an interesting insight into the utter drudgery and lack of glamour of professional mainstream politics, and by extension all politics. Last edited by: Armel Coussine on Sat 12 Jan 13 at 18:48
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New Sat 12 Jan 13 18:58
MP pay - sooty123
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>> >> MPs like him who live on their salaries aren't rich at all and work in >> sleazy lower-middle-management conditions. I know it's not what you meant, but it reminded me about the overhaul of the house of parliament. I was talking to someone who had insight it the requirements of the palace and the surrounding buildings. The place is falling apart, any other building it might well have been pulled down. The task of overhauling it is huge. Last edited by: sooty123 on Sat 12 Jan 13 at 18:59
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New Sat 12 Jan 13 19:08
MP pay - Armel Coussine
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>> The task of overhauling it is huge. Well, it's pretty ornate, so there's a lot of skilled work in maintaining it. What I meant about the working conditions of MPs (and lords come to that) was overcrowding and sharing harassed secretaries, typists etc. in a generally grubby and harassed office environment, familiar I imagine to many here. It's just as bad in Portcullis House across the road, a big annexe in which many MPs now have offices. Even the ones in the old palace where Willie Hamilton worked were little partitioned windowless things completely different from the grand public parts of the building. |
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New Sat 12 Jan 13 19:53
MP pay - sooty123
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>> >> The task of overhauling it is huge. >> >> Well, it's pretty ornate, so there's a lot of skilled work in maintaining it. What >> I meant about the working conditions of MPs (and lords come to that) was overcrowding >> and sharing harassed secretaries, typists etc. in a generally grubby and harassed office environment, familiar >> I imagine to many here. It's just as bad in Portcullis House across the road, >> a big annexe in which many MPs now have offices. Even the ones in the >> old palace where Willie Hamilton worked were little partitioned windowless things completely different from the >> grand public parts of the building. >> >> I think that is part of the problem, offices that weren't designed as such. By all accounts many are windowless, roasting in summer and freezing in the winter etc. With other problems many of which are things like lack of plans so people don't know where to start, lots of unknowns. 9 figures sum to sort it all out by all accounts. |
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New Sat 12 Jan 13 20:41
MP pay - Armel Coussine
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>> 9 figures sum to sort it all out by all accounts. Doubtless economies can be made at least to keep negative pace with inflation, so that by the time the work is done it will still only cost a tenth of a billion (the new million).... but in the end they'll still be overcrowded, Ministers and Permanent Secretaries apart of course. 600 plus MPs, however many lords it is and the quite numerous house officials, beadles, keepers of this and that, tipstaffs and black rods and crap, and all their clerical staff and security. It's a warren and always will be. |
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New Sat 12 Jan 13 20:50
MP pay - sooty123
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>> >> 9 figures sum to sort it all out by all accounts. >> It's a warren and always will be. >> No doubt, till I went past the place I didn't really get a feel for how big the place is or how many 'outbuildings' there are. I think there are 100 people involved in estate management of it all. >> >> |
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New Sat 12 Jan 13 19:00
MP pay - Dutchie
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| I remember Willy Hamilton a outspoken caracter.It is the little jobs they have on the side and the house fiddling what some of them got up to which I don't like.If they do a good honest job for the people and change soceity for the better pay them the money.Don't like bowing for people Royalty or not. |
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New Sat 12 Jan 13 19:41
MP pay - Bromptonaut
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>> There's a story, I hope apocryphal, that Quintin Hogg dressed in the Lord Chancellor's reeking >> 17th century costume with full fig and wig, flanked by black-coated red box bearers and >> aides, was bearing down on a group of American tourists in one of Westminster's capacious >> corridors when he spotted the MP Neil Hamilton behind them. Holding up an imperious forefinger, >> he called over their heads: 'Neil!', whereat they all fell to their knees. I seem to remember Hailsham's Private Secretary Richard Stoate , a guy who died tragically young, relating the same story at a manager's training conference c 1990. >> Much more respectable, and a nice man in a po-faced way, was Willie Hamilton (Lab., >> somewhere in Fife). He wasn't at all left wing but had a bee in his >> bonnet about the monarchy. I did some research for him when he was writing a >> book that eventually came out under the title 'My Queen and I' Remember that book too. Illustrated with a postage stamp portrait of HM on the cover? I think my Father had a copy but not part of his library I managed to get to before my mother downsized it after his death. Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Sat 12 Jan 13 at 19:43
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