| Non-motoring > Is 8am early? | Miscellaneous |
| Thread Author: Stuu | Replies: 188 |
|
New Sun 30 Dec 12 15:59
Is 8am early? - Stuu
|
|
order-order.com/2012/12/30/on-the-dole-because-he-didnt-want-to-get-up-at-800-a-m/ I did have to chuckle, the presenter got rather peed off :-) |
|
New Sun 30 Dec 12 16:11
Is 8am early? - sooty123
|
| Having listened to it, I'm not sure what to say. He was serious wasn't he about 9-9.30 start? The bit where she suggested 9-1 made me laugh and his reply 'now you're making light of it' he certainly had some front. |
|
New Sun 30 Dec 12 16:16
Is 8am early? - Robin O'Reliant
|
|
I would normally dismiss this type of call as a wind up, but from the tone of the caller and the direction the conversation took I'm convinced it was genuine. And I do know people who are exactly like the caller, though they wouldn't admit it on a radio show. How many deserving cases don't apply for benefits because they are embarrassed to be associated with trash like that? |
|
New Sun 30 Dec 12 16:31
Is 8am early? - Armel Coussine
|
| Yes, damn early. |
|
New Sun 30 Dec 12 16:33
Is 8am early? - Harleyman
|
| What a waste of space. |
|
New Sun 30 Dec 12 16:42
Is 8am early? - Pat
|
|
He should try being a lorry driver..if you haven't earned three parts of a days wages by 8am then you may as well go home. Pat |
|
New Sun 30 Dec 12 16:48
Is 8am early? - Zero
|
| or sit in the jam. |
|
New Sun 30 Dec 12 19:03
Is 8am early? - zippy
|
|
I had a conversation with a friend earlier dreading the re-introduction of poor houses if the economy crashed. I am not so sure now! :-) To be honest, I do not begrudge a fair welfare system but I do believe that everyone should contribute something - i.e. there time to voluntary associations or charities if they are claiming benefits. Benefit cheats should get the same prison sentences that bank robbers get, not a slap on the wrists but hard time. |
|
New Sun 30 Dec 12 20:45
Is 8am early? - Dave_
|
|
>> or sit in the jam Still getting paid by the hour though :) |
|
New Sun 30 Dec 12 23:43
Is 8am early? - Harleyman
|
|
>> He should try being a lorry driver..if you haven't earned three parts of a days >> wages by 8am then you may as well go home. >> >> Pat >> Absolutely. My current job's pretty easy compared to some hauliers; start at 7, load up, anything up to 14 drops usually covering about 300-400 km's, back to yard, tip off empty pallets and debrief; rarely home before 6. The amount of manual handling's lessened over the years but it's still by no means a soft job. |
|
New Sun 30 Dec 12 19:15
Is 8am early? - ....
|
|
Does anyone still have a 9 - 5 job ? I've never had one. He usually looks a couple of times a week for work. I thought when you were unemployed your job was finding a job ? |
|
New Sun 30 Dec 12 19:28
Is 8am early? - Zero
|
| my last 9-5 job was in 1973.. Still dont have one. some 40 years later. |
|
New Sun 30 Dec 12 19:34
Is 8am early? - ....
|
| Didn't think you were unemployed Z, thought you were out to stud these days... :-) |
|
New Sun 30 Dec 12 19:47
Is 8am early? - Alastairw
|
|
I've become a bit of a nightowl in the last year or two, so rarely rise before 8. I do usually get to the office before 9, and usually linger after four, unlike the idle 'apeths that come in at 7.30 (before the phone startes to ring) and hence leave early. That said, if the need arises you get up when the work/commute demands. Bed time would have to change. |
|
New Sun 30 Dec 12 19:52
Is 8am early? - Zero
|
|
>> thought you were out to stud these days... :-) Not a 9 - 5 career tho is it. |
|
New Sun 30 Dec 12 20:01
Is 8am early? - ....
|
|
>> >> thought you were out to stud these days... :-) >> >> Not a 9 - 5 career tho is it. >> It worked for Robin Askwith in the 70's. |
|
New Sun 30 Dec 12 20:44
Is 8am early? - Dave_
|
| I've heard there were guidelines issued to jobcentres, instructing them to try to schedule teenage claimants' signing-on times for later in the day when they'd be out of bed. Not sure how true that is, but it's not beyond the realms of possibility. |
|
New Sun 30 Dec 12 20:49
Is 8am early? - R.P.
|
| Things are changing very quickly, the sanctioning rules were updated in October - can be sanctioned for up to three years now for not fulfilling certain requirements. I flirted with the thought of going to work for a local estate agent before this job came up, they told me they'd had a good dozen UB40s turn in their CVs with absolutely no interest in getting a job, benefits changes between now and 2014 are really going to stuff some people. |
|
New Sun 30 Dec 12 21:12
Is 8am early? - Bromptonaut
|
|
>> >> >> benefits changes between now and 2014 are really going to stuff some people True dat. But most of those stuffed will be the genuinely disadvantaged/incapable, not the wasters. |
|
New Sun 30 Dec 12 22:09
Is 8am early? - Robin O'Reliant
|
|
>> True dat. But most of those stuffed will be the genuinely disadvantaged/incapable, not the wasters. >> >> I've never seen any evidence that this will be the case. And I don't count a benefits cap at £500 a week as being something that would have anyone in the third world crying in sympathy. |
|
New Sun 30 Dec 12 22:13
Is 8am early? - Zero
|
|
Whats needed is good accurate fair "means testing" for benefit. As soon as you mention that word the left and liberals hit the roof. Its because a means test in the old days meant some busybody turning your home over and rooting around in your knicker draw for cash. It needn't be like that in these days of computer. |
|
New Sun 30 Dec 12 22:17
Is 8am early? - R.P.
|
|
Most benefits are now means tested to various degrees - the only ones that aren't are Disability Living Allowance (soon to be replaced by the Personal Independence Payment) which will be eventually assessed as the Employment Support Allowance is now (and what a whopping success that has been) - DWP are pretty good at catching out people who squirrel away money and not declare it.
Last edited by: R.P. on Sun 30 Dec 12 at 22:18
|
|
New Mon 31 Dec 12 09:27
Is 8am early? - Mike Hannon
|
|
>>Its because a means test in the old days meant some busybody turning your home over and rooting around in your knicker draw for cash. << 'drawer' - see other thread... |
|
New Sun 30 Dec 12 20:59
Is 8am early? - Cliff Pope
|
|
>> Does anyone still have a 9 - 5 job ? I've never had one. >> 8 - 4. I miss the traffic and get home early. |
|
New Sun 30 Dec 12 21:12
Is 8am early? - R.P.
|
| 9-3 (well I get in for 830am for a brew and a chat with the Employment Lawyer - a very nice bloke) |
|
New Sun 30 Dec 12 22:02
Is 8am early? - legacylad
|
| 8.20 to 5.30 for me, with a 20 minute walk to work. Never had it as easy. |
|
New Sun 30 Dec 12 22:11
Is 8am early? - Fursty Ferret
|
|
Only “office hours" job I had was 10-7, an exceptionally convenient time to work for the most part. 8am not early by any stretch of the imagination. What's crippling is switching between early (before 5am) and late starts in rapid sequence (more than twice a week, say). I thought that the “benefit debit card" that didn't allow spending on booze and fags was quite a good idea but apparently not, according to the Guardian. |
|
New Sun 30 Dec 12 23:09
Is 8am early? - Fullchat
|
|
You mean there are 2 x 8'o clocks in a day ??? :] |
|
New Sun 30 Dec 12 23:33
Is 8am early? - Ted
|
|
I try not to get up 'til 9 but sometimes the office ring me just after 8 and it's not worth staying in me pit. I like to be off into the city before the real rush hour starts, Happily, it doesn't happen too often. I don't hit the sack until after midnight 'cos I have trouble getting to sleep...I tire meself out by reading what you lot write ! Ted |
|
New Mon 31 Dec 12 05:45
Is 8am early? - paulb
|
|
Assuming this case to be genuine (I have my doubts though), this chap needs to take a long, hard look at himself. Not playing for the "look at me" or sympathy votes here, but I am usually at my desk by about 7.30 these days, having got up at 5 or so, out the door at about 6, and then driven 65 miles to get to work. Generally still in office at 7 pm although am trying to limit that - a current very busy patch will have an end date soon. This will hopefully coincide with us parting company with my opposite number, who is one of life's holders of meetings and compiler of tracker spreadsheets, anything rather than do his actual work, which I am having to do (including managing his team as well as mine) as well as my own work for the time being. Don't actually mind all this, because the pay's good and I enjoy the work - commute is a bit longer than ideal but there we are, can't have everything in life. |
|
New Mon 31 Dec 12 10:24
Is 8am early? - Haywain
|
|
I wake up at 6.15, make my wife a cup of tea, and I feed the dog. For the next hour or so, I assist her in finding her car keys, mobile phone etc. Just after 7.30 I clean and/or scrape the ice from her car windows; I help her carry her bags to the car, wave her goodbye, and wish her a super day at work. Then I go back to bed. |
|
New Mon 31 Dec 12 07:45
Is 8am early? - Zero
|
|
>> You mean there are 2 x 8'o clocks in a day ??? :] Nope, not in your case. There is 08:00 and 20:00. |
|
New Mon 31 Dec 12 10:41
Is 8am early? - Bromptonaut
|
|
>> I thought that the “benefit debit card" that didn't allow spending on booze and fags >> was quite a good idea but apparently not, according to the Guardian. Assuming for a minute this is a real issue why are we bothered about the unemployed having a drink? I'm not au fait with current benefit terminology but the Income Support award letter was explicit that the sum payable was 'the minimum amount the law says you need to live on'. Why should others busybody about how you spend it. Whatever the public statements say a 'benefits debit card' will be instantly recognisable to shop assistants. The banking system will charge a fortune to operate it. The determined will find work rounds and the categorising of barred products will soon become a nightmare. My work charge card has bars on numerous categories of spend which sometimes have unintended refusals while on other occasions I can get stuff that strictly I shouldn't. And of course places like markets where really healthy food is cheap won't take it at all. It's a problem that only exists because the Mail and it's parliamentary lickspittles have created it in people's minds. A government that squeezes the middle and causes them to blame the poor can get on with it's teal work of enriching those at the top. Divide and rule. |
|
New Mon 31 Dec 12 11:29
Is 8am early? - R.P.
|
| Most benefits will be rolled into one over the next 18 months. This means that the recipient will effectively get a "payslip" once a month along with a lump sum payment. This includes IS, JSA and Housing Benefit - it will be paid a month in arrears. Now traditionally HB has been paid direct to the Local Authority - this will change and will mean that recipients will have to budget where the money goes. No prizes for guessing where some will find its way to... |
|
New Mon 31 Dec 12 15:20
Is 8am early? - Westpig
|
|
>> Assuming for a minute this is a real issue why are we bothered about the >> unemployed having a drink? I am, if they are spending my taxes to achieve it, rather than work themselves to pay for their leisure activities. >> >> I'm not au fait with current benefit terminology but the Income Support award letter was >> explicit that the sum payable was 'the minimum amount the law says you need to >> live on'. Why should others busybody about how you spend it. Because an unemployment benefit should provide you with some basic needs, not a load of extras. If we were talking about 4 cans of lager a week, then fair enough, but if we're talking about getting lagered up every night and having 60 day fag habit..then pay for it yourself. >> Whatever the public statements say a 'benefits debit card' will be instantly recognisable to shop >> assistants. So what? The idea is you won't have it long. |
|
New Mon 31 Dec 12 15:34
Is 8am early? - Bromptonaut
|
|
>> Because an unemployment benefit should provide you with some basic needs, not a load of >> extras. If we were talking about 4 cans of lager a week, then fair enough, >> but if we're talking about getting lagered up every night and having 60 day fag >> habit..then pay for it yourself. If you look at the amounts in payment as benefit they won't support habits at that level. >> >> Whatever the public statements say a 'benefits debit card' will be instantly recognisable to >> shop >> >> assistants. >> >> So what? The idea is you won't have it long. Are you sure. I suspect it would be applied to all except perhaps old age pensions. Long term sick same as those claiming between jobs. |
|
New Mon 31 Dec 12 15:37
Is 8am early? - Fursty Ferret
|
|
>> >> Because an unemployment benefit should provide you with some basic needs, not a load >> of >> >> extras. If we were talking about 4 cans of lager a week, then fair >> enough, >> >> but if we're talking about getting lagered up every night and having 60 day >> fag >> >> habit..then pay for it yourself. >> >> >> If you look at the amounts in payment as benefit they won't support habits at >> that level. >> They will in some households but the kids suffer as their benefits are squandered. |
|
New Mon 31 Dec 12 17:34
Is 8am early? - Pat
|
|
Bromp, I'm with you on this one but I should metion that I listened to a discussion on the radio last week about these benefits cards and apparently they are only intended for people with habitual problems ie: alcoholic, gamblers, drug addicts etc. The accusation was that it had all been blown out of context....I don't know if that is correct or not (before CG polls in and asks me to source it!) From one who had to queue at the front of the class in school to claim my free school dinners, and then be ridiculed by other classmates for it, I know exactly the problems it would cause. Pat |
|
New Mon 31 Dec 12 17:55
Is 8am early? - Armel Coussine
|
|
>> From one who had to queue at the front of the class in school to claim my free school dinners, and then be ridiculed by other classmates for it, I know exactly the problems it would cause. Did that really happen to you Pat? How ghastly. Evil little carphounds... but they got that crap from their parents of course. Of course you would think the school might notice something like that and start a system that made the whole thing less obvious. Probably seen as too much trouble by teachers/dinner ladies though. In my day at state schools - I went to several - I think everyone got free lunches. But it was a long time ago and I may be wrong. |
|
New Mon 31 Dec 12 18:09
Is 8am early? - Westpig
|
|
>> From one who had to queue at the front of the class in school to >> claim my free school dinners, and then be ridiculed by other classmates for it, I >> know exactly the problems it would cause. So do I, because when my mother fell out with my step-father and the business went bankrupt as well (aged 14)...we went from the large manor house, the Jag with a private plate and foreign holidays when they weren't normal.... to the housing association 2 up 2 down in one hit... and the free school meals...and the cheap pumps rather than the trainers everyone else had..etc. But...the reality is ...it doesn't matter if you have a loving home and people that make you feel secure. I think I saw both sides of the coin as a child..and it allowed me to be more balanced..and i still think that the welfare state needs to be affordable and when applied to those that could work, should be a failsafe only. |
|
New Mon 31 Dec 12 18:13
Is 8am early? - Bromptonaut
|
|
>> Bromp, I'm with you on this one but I should metion that I listened to >> a discussion on the radio last week about these benefits cards and apparently they are >> only intended for people with habitual problems ie: alcoholic, gamblers, drug addicts etc. >> >> The accusation was that it had all been blown out of context....I don't know if >> that is correct or not (before CG polls in and asks me to source it!) >> >> From one who had to queue at the front of the class in school to >> claim my free school dinners, and then be ridiculed by other classmates for it, I >> know exactly the problems it would cause. >> >> Pat I suspect that there are several 'ideas' floating round. Apart from the stuff in Mail/Express there was a ten minute rule bill introduced by a Conservative just before the recess. Apparently it's for the claimants own good; protects them from accusations of malfeasance with 'taxpayers money'. I heard him on the radio and wanted to punch his lights out. |
|
New Tue 1 Jan 13 02:10
Is 8am early? - Westpig
|
|
>> I heard him on the radio and wanted to punch his lights out. I heard him on the radio and wanted to shake his hand. |
|
New Tue 1 Jan 13 09:57
Is 8am early? - Bromptonaut
|
|
>> I heard him on the radio and wanted to shake his hand. Why am I unsurprised ;-) Seriously, it wasn't the proposition so much as the presentation that irked me. To spin a piece of social control as bein to the advantage of the controlled was beyond even Campbell. |
|
New Tue 1 Jan 13 12:30
Is 8am early? - Westpig
|
|
To spin >> a piece of social control as bein to the advantage of the controlled was beyond >> even Campbell. >> Interesting that you think of it as social control. I don't. I see it as 'if you need temporary help from the rest of us, fair enough, but it isn't for the luxuries'. Before anyone feels the need to twist it, this is not aimed at the disabled, mentally unwell, elderly etc....just those on long termed unemployment benefit who could work but choose not to. |
|
New Tue 1 Jan 13 13:30
Is 8am early? - Robin O'Reliant
|
|
>> Before anyone feels the need to twist it, this is not aimed at the disabled, >> mentally unwell, elderly etc....just those on long termed unemployment benefit who could work but choose not to. >> Living as I do in what my firm considers the back of beyond and working mostly unsupervised I occasionally get roped into recruiting new staff. It's self employed and no more than average pay but it isn't difficult work, just needs a bit of commitment. My experience of applicants from job centres leads me to believe that at least 50% (and I'm being generous here) of those drawing unemployment benefits are more than happy to be doing so and have no intention of working. Speak to anyone involved in recruiting staff and they'll tell you that job centres are a desperate last resort. |
|
New Tue 1 Jan 13 17:56
Is 8am early? - Harleyman
|
|
>> Speak to anyone involved in recruiting staff and they'll tell you that job centres are >> a desperate last resort. >> I was a recruitment consultant for several years, trained by Reed; and before that was operations manager of a Nightfreight depot. I used to get a lot of "candidates" sent to me by the Jobcentre; most of those that bothered to turn up for interview inevitably stunk to high heaven, had so many "issues" that prevented them from doing anything remotely resembling work, looked like they'd just crawled out of a skip where they'd been living for a month or were arrogant and downright rude. Jobcentres rarely, if ever, checked up with us about our success rates with placements; if they did it was months down the line after the candidate's details had been sitting in the "DO NOT USE" file in the basement for a while. On the rare occasions where you placed one of them into employment, it was wise to have another trusted temp on call as back-up, for inevitably they'd either not bother to turn up, go somwhere else and then claim they'd not had proper directions, or walk off the job at the slightest excuse. |
|
New Tue 1 Jan 13 18:14
Is 8am early? - Zero
|
|
>> >> >> Speak to anyone involved in recruiting staff and they'll tell you that job centres >> are >> >> a desperate last resort. Most people are at the job centre for a reason. The only reason I went there for was to get my JSA, if I really wanted a job I wouldn't go there to find it |
|
New Tue 1 Jan 13 18:25
Is 8am early? - R.P.
|
| I went for JSA - but wouldn't let me have any.... |
|
New Tue 1 Jan 13 18:27
Is 8am early? - Zero
|
|
nor me. You didn't get your job their either did you.
Last edited by: Zero on Tue 1 Jan 13 at 18:28
|
|
New Tue 1 Jan 13 18:27
Is 8am early? - spamcan61
|
|
>> >> Most people are at the job centre for a reason. The only reason I went >> there for was to get my JSA, if I really wanted a job I wouldn't >> go there to find it >> During my 13 months signing on at Ringwood Job Centre Plus* they found me a grand total of 1 potential job - care centre manager for East Dorset. I actually did the full-on web job application, funnily enough I didn't get the job - maybe something to do with pretty much zero match with my CV. The other 130 odd jobs I applied for I found myself! * is that like Sky Plus or what, never was sure what the 'Plus' meant. |
|
New Tue 1 Jan 13 18:48
Is 8am early? - Robin O'Reliant
|
|
I feel quite sorry for Job Centre staff. I knew a couple of people who worked in my local branch and they knew exactly what they were dealing with. Sure, there were genuine customers who went there after being lobbed out of a job they'd had for years, but like spam above most of them eventually found work themselves. A considerable proportion of their clients were the professional unemployed, no intention of doing anything other than going through the motions, and the staff were fully aware that serious employers offering good long term jobs would not use the Job Centre because they would just be wasting their time. So all they were left with were the companies with a high churn rate of staff, those looking for double glazing canvassers, insurance salesmen, utility companies doing doorstep selling etc. The companies that didn't have to worry about taking on no-hopers because unless they sold they didn't get paid. Looking at unemployment figures over the decades of boom and bust I reckon we have at least a million full time skivers in the UK - the reason so many immigrants had to be brought in to fill the vacancies that were there. |
|
New Tue 1 Jan 13 19:02
Is 8am early? - Bromptonaut
|
|
>> Looking at unemployment figures over the decades of boom and bust I reckon we have >> at least a million full time skivers in the UK - the reason so many >> immigrants had to be brought in to fill the vacancies that were there. There's some of that for sure. OTOH where are the jobs these days for those who are 'a bit slow' or whose personality made them difficult at work? In the past they'd have found a place sweeping the floor, fetching stuff to the line or doing something basic at the pit head or pit bottom. Mates would have looked out for them and kept them out of trouble. Strong unions probably helped as well. Such posts no longer exist. The unemployable will be with us as long as the unemployed. Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Tue 1 Jan 13 at 19:03
|
|
New Tue 1 Jan 13 19:16
Is 8am early? - Old Navy
|
|
>> OTOH where are the jobs these days for those who are 'a bit slow' or >> whose personality made them difficult at work? >> >> In the past they'd have found a place sweeping the floor, fetching stuff to the >> line or doing something basic at the pit head or pit bottom. >> >> Mates would have looked out for them and kept them out of trouble. Strong unions >> probably helped as well. Many civilian cleaners and other low grade jobs in Navy shore bases and dockyards were filled by the people you describe, usually they were conscientious and well thought of. The privatisation of these jobs saw many made redundant with little hope of meaningful future employment. The security and support of a full time job in a caring workplace and the self respect and structure that brings was lost forever for many good people. |
|
New Tue 1 Jan 13 19:28
Is 8am early? - R.P.
|
| True in many of the so-called Public Sector - lots of them cared for their staff in a way that the weasel faced gang-masters who provide staff on a contractual basis coud never understand. |
|
New Tue 1 Jan 13 19:48
Is 8am early? - Armel Coussine
|
|
>> lots of them cared for their staff in a way that the weasel faced gang-masters who provide staff on a contractual basis coud never understand. Of course they can understand it Rob. They just don't approve of it in their own rabid capitalist context, because it isn't profitable the way they see it. I wonder if there has ever been a comparative study, properly done, to measure productivity, costs etc over the long term between employed staff decently looked after and these agencies? There may not be that much difference over time. Perhaps the Thatcherite yuppie privatization fashion will die out. Then the gangmasters you mention, not to mention their evil clacking suits of bosses, might have to work for a living (if anyone would employ them). That would be cheering. |
|
New Tue 1 Jan 13 19:09
Is 8am early? - R.P.
|
| One of the volunteers at our place was a career Civil Servant and ended up at one of these places. Dreadful, soul destroying and generally awful is how she describes working there. |
|
New Tue 1 Jan 13 13:31
Is 8am early? - Dog
|
|
>>Before anyone feels the need to twist it, this is not aimed at the disabled, mentally unwell, elderly etc....just those on long termed unemployment benefit who could work but choose not to<< I'm with you all the way bwana = can-work-wont-work merchants. I know a young chap (24) in Plymouth who has never done a days work in his life, his mother knows 'the system' inside out and has used that knowledge (plus lies) to good (bad) effect. He has just returned from California + New York if you please, he rides his bike regularly and has been out walking (I'm a walker) with me for hours on end, so he blooming could do some work. The system HAS to change!! |
|
New Tue 1 Jan 13 14:50
Is 8am early? - Stuu
|
|
>>so he blooming could do some work. The system HAS to change!! << Well, not if you are him. If you are him the system is working perfectly. You seem to be under the illusion that he should be working when infact he retired at 16, or I would imagine that is how he views it - retirement is choosing not to work when you have the financial choice available is it not? :-) |
|
New Tue 1 Jan 13 16:05
Is 8am early? - Dog
|
|
>>You seem to be under the illusion that he should be working when infact he retired at 16, or I would imagine that is how he views it<< He actually looks down his nose at anyone who works believe it or not - he sees them as 'lesser beings'. |
|
New Tue 1 Jan 13 16:46
Is 8am early? - Westpig
|
|
>> He actually looks down his nose at anyone who works believe it or not - >> he sees them as 'lesser beings'. >> He sees it as his 'right' to not work. Our country cannot afford to run things like that..and..it's unfair on those that do work, especially those on limited wages who go without things themselves. He and people like him need to be shown that the game's up. It won't happen if Labour get back in, will it?...because for some reason that I cannot fathom at all, there are many on the Left that think it's o.k. for this to be so...and any challenge on any part of the welfare system is vociferously challenged. Puzzling. I can't work out why a hard working low income family is allowed to be treated second best to scroungers who are too lazy to work. |
|
New Tue 1 Jan 13 17:05
Is 8am early? - R.P.
|
| There's a cartoon that perfectly illustrated this point in Private Eye last month ! |
|
New Mon 31 Dec 12 12:07
Is 8am early? - Skip
|
|
>> Does anyone still have a 9 - 5 job ? I've never had one. >> Yes, I have a Monday to Friday 9 -5 job. I have had to come into the office today, we have a skeleton staff in over the the Xmas period & today is my turn. So far the phone has rung once & that was a wrong number and I have received no emails ! Still only 4 hours and 48 minutes to go !!!!! |
|
New Tue 1 Jan 13 07:12
Is 8am early? - Bigtee
|
|
>> >> Does anyone still have a 9 - 5 job ? I've never had one. >> >> No 10 & 12 hr shifts of days and nights, but it's soon to change to 7 & 8 hr afternoon with some 11hr night shifts. Can you blame him saying he does not want to work it's too easy to sit at home doing nowt who in the right mind would get up at 5am to work when the state will bail you out. Too soft this country. |
|
New Tue 1 Jan 13 16:34
Is 8am early? - madf
|
|
>> >> >> Does anyone still have a 9 - 5 job ? I've never had >> one. >> >> >> >> No 10 & 12 hr shifts of days and nights, but it's soon to change >> to 7 & 8 hr afternoon with some 11hr night shifts. >> >> Can you blame him saying he does not want to work it's too easy to >> sit at home doing nowt who in the right mind would get up at 5am >> to work when the state will bail you out. >> >> Too soft this country. >> >> If properly run, the benefits changes coming in will give him a shock. |
|
New Tue 1 Jan 13 16:47
Is 8am early? - Westpig
|
|
>> If properly run, the benefits changes coming in will give him a shock. >> Sincerely hope so. |
|
New Tue 1 Jan 13 20:28
Is 8am early? - mikeyb
|
|
>> >> Does anyone still have a 9 - 5 job ? I've never had one. >> >> Kind of. I have a flexible working arrangement so can start any time between 7 and 9:30, and finish between 2:45 and 7 except for Fridays where I can (and do) finish at 12. I just have to make sure that I have covered 35 hours by the time I leave on a Friday, although that's never an issue as I'm frequently over that. The flexibility works well for us as Mrs B usually works nights, so I can hand the youngest 2 over to her when she gets in and drop the older ones at school, or be home in time to pick them up from school if needed. If we lost that flexibility we would have some significant logistics issues |
|
New Tue 1 Jan 13 20:32
Is 8am early? - R.P.
|
| I had a job like that once..., found it very difficult to adjust to being told when to be in work. |
|
New Tue 1 Jan 13 21:05
Is 8am early? - Bromptonaut
|
|
I do 36hrs actually at the desk equal to 42hrs including lunch. Flexi time means I can start between 07:30 and 10:00 and finish from 16:00 until building closes at 19:00. Lunch from 11:30 to 14:30. All that needs to be finessed with telephone and management cover plus post rotas. Time built up can be taken as days off so junior staff need to be watched for tricks with early starts and late finishes that avoid times they're needed to cover punter demand. |
|
New Tue 1 Jan 13 21:15
Is 8am early? - Robin O'Reliant
|
| I had a flexi-time job once. As long as I was in before six in the evening I could leave any time after six in the morning. |
|
New Wed 2 Jan 13 18:49
Is 8am early? - Westpig
|
|
>> Flexi time means >> >> Time built up can be taken as days off so junior staff need to be >> watched for tricks with early starts and late finishes that avoid times they're needed to >> cover punter demand. When I moved, as the manager, into an office based environment, my idea of flexi time seemed to differ from everyone else already in there. I established that it was discretionary and the manager could decide whether it continued or not. My office meeting was 'interesting', especially when I advised that i'd been keeping a note of who turned up when. One woman was up to 1.5 hours out on her alleged timings on some days..how on earth did she think I wasn't going to notice? I think flexi time is serially abused and should be abolished. |
|
New Wed 2 Jan 13 19:01
Is 8am early? - mikeyb
|
|
>> I think flexi time is serially abused and should be abolished. >> Depends how its managed. I have a barcode on the back of my ID badge which I just swipe as I enter and leave the building. I can the check on the system my times in / out and any positive / negative time balance. If I'm under my hours / or don't swipe then the system generates an exception. I don't really understand how companies with no time management system can operate flexi. |
|
New Wed 2 Jan 13 19:37
Is 8am early? - Runfer D'Hills
|
|
Time measured effort is all a ball of chalk to be honest. I an currentlly an employed sales director but was previously a proprietor of a sales based small business. Some days I work 20 hours but others I work 2 hours. If there's work to be done then do it. If there isn't then be happy. Pretending to be busy is BS. Getting stuck in when circs demand is the measure of effort. Last edited by: Humph D'Bout on Wed 2 Jan 13 at 19:38
|
|
New Wed 2 Jan 13 21:25
Is 8am early? - ....
|
|
>> Pretending to be busy is BS. Getting stuck in when circs demand is the measure >> of effort. >> That's my argument every time... |
|
New Wed 2 Jan 13 21:45
Is 8am early? - Dave_
|
|
>> Pretending to be busy is BS. Getting stuck in when circs demand is the measure of effort. +1. I calculate backwards from the time I can interact with my first customer and start work then, e.g Classic car man at Whaley Bridge will be in at 0800 so I set off for there at 0530; Audi Leicester start at 0830 which means 0800 start for me. Our company is pretty good like that, they tell me what needs doing and leave it up to me to ensure it gets done in the time allowerd. It's my own prerogative to get on with it early. |
|
New Wed 2 Jan 13 19:49
Is 8am early? - Zero
|
|
>> I think flexi time is serially abused and should be abolished. Excelent, like to see you as the Boss with a load of month end stuff to clear. "Sorry Boss, Nigh Night, Its 17:30 on Friday, my fixed hours are up, see you monday" |
|
New Wed 2 Jan 13 21:17
Is 8am early? - Westpig
|
|
>> Excelent, like to see you as the Boss with a load of month end stuff >> to clear. >> >> "Sorry Boss, Nigh Night, Its 17:30 on Friday, my fixed hours are up, see you >> monday" >> I mean the civil service type stuff where people ought to be working between 0800-1700 when their customers think they are. Not private businesses and similar who make flexible arrangements to make the system work. |
|
New Wed 2 Jan 13 21:17
Is 8am early? - Bromptonaut
|
|
>> I think flexi time is serially abused and should be abolished. If flexi time is seriously abused then there's a serious failure of management. As you say, if somebody's alleged timings are different from the real ones how on earth do they think their manager wont notice. I managed a guy 25 years ago for whom clock parallax always worked in his favour. RIP Stan. |
|
New Wed 2 Jan 13 21:26
Is 8am early? - Westpig
|
|
>> I managed a guy 25 years ago for whom clock parallax always worked in his >> favour. The lady in question tried to baffle me with the 7 hrs 12 mins bit i.e. their paid working day. Anything more than that and she was claiming flexi time. When I queried her minimum of 20 mins unpaid lunch break (and the often longer than that) and where did that fit in to her figures...she looked rather blank. She'd been claiming time she wasn't owed for donkey's years is my guess. In some ways it was a shame I retired when I did, as there was unfinished business in there..but I did leave a decent briefing for my successor..and from what I can gather there's been carnage, not before time. |
|
New Wed 2 Jan 13 21:42
Is 8am early? - rtj70
|
|
My contract is 9-5:30 Monday to Thursday and 9-5 on Friday. But it also says about working the hours needed during the week to get the job done. At weekend I am entitled to overtime at a flat rate (it was £30/hour a few years ago but I'd rather not lose a weekend). Admittedly I am not on minimum wage (and next year get 38 days leave plus bank holidays having bought a few days extra). In reality some weeks you can be not so busy and others end up working long hours. Working from home can be a double edged sword. I think it balances out in the long run. And I avoid paying to drive to an office where I will struggle to do some things that are easier from home (e.g. relying on my home PC for a virtual labs environments). |
|
New Wed 2 Jan 13 21:42
Is 8am early? - Bromptonaut
|
|
>> The lady in question tried to baffle me with the 7 hrs 12 mins bit >> i.e. their paid working day. Anything more than that and she was claiming flexi time. One can get too fixated on 7:12. If they're within that number but idle they need an activity. If not then, outwith core time, they can be sent home. IIRC I bought a cheap calculator designed for flyer's logbooks that worked in h/m. It made sorting out bullshine just a bit easier. It's mostly about knowing your people and their tricks though. |
|
New Thu 3 Jan 13 01:07
Is 8am early? - Fullchat
|
|
"In some ways it was a shame I retired when I did, as there was unfinished business in there..but I did leave a decent briefing for my successor..and from what I can gather there's been carnage, not before time." Sounds like a brief for an OSPRE scenario: Its your first day at Sanford. You are taking over from a retired Insp. You have 5 minutes to read a report left by him detailing how he would like you to do the legs of a civilian member of staff who has been taking the pee for years. In the next scenario you will meet that member of staff :) |
|
New Thu 3 Jan 13 03:27
Is 8am early? - No FM2R
|
|
An employee, a manager, a director or an executive will naturally focus upon the most complex thing he understands. If either you, or your manager, are focused upon time keeping then there is a message there for your HR Group. |
|
New Thu 3 Jan 13 09:48
Is 8am early? - Manatee
|
|
>> An employee, a manager, a director or an executive will naturally focus upon the most >> complex thing he understands. Good observation. Another one is that a fish rots from the head. |
|
New Thu 3 Jan 13 10:13
Is 8am early? - CGNorwich
|
|
"Another one is that a fish rots from the head." Not literally true. As in most animals including humans decomposition in fish starts in the intestinal tract where most bacteria are found . Just look as some roadkill, :-) |
|
New Thu 3 Jan 13 10:15
Is 8am early? - Manatee
|
| Good thing I wasn't being literal then :-) |
|
New Thu 3 Jan 13 14:20
Is 8am early? - CGNorwich
|
|
Good thing I wasn't being literal then :-) Good to be precise about these things. Too much sloppiness about. :-) |
|
New Thu 3 Jan 13 10:10
Is 8am early? - Bromptonaut
|
|
>> An employee, a manager, a director or an executive will naturally focus upon the most >> complex thing he understands. >> >> If either you, or your manager, are focused upon time keeping then there is a >> message there for your HR Group. If that's all your focussed on then there probably is a message. On the other hand if somebody is falsifying their timesheets and being sseen to get away with it that's a message for HR as well. Whether it is on or below an Inspector's pay grade depends on the organisational structure. |
|
New Thu 3 Jan 13 10:34
Is 8am early? - Westpig
|
|
>> then there is >> a >> >> message there for your HR Group. Believe me...you kept the HR bureaucrats well away from everything. They'd have you running around for their stuff, but when you needed something forget it. Absolutely perfect example of the tail wagging the dog. One of my sergeants showed me one day some of the crap HR had tasked him with and it was impacting his job. I told him that on each and every occasion HR tasked him with something he should think of something that he should send back for them to do..even if it took several days to think of something suitable...and then eventually they'd get fed up with him, think him weary and they'd leave him alone. It worked. |
|
New Thu 3 Jan 13 12:24
Is 8am early? - No FM2R
|
|
>>On the other hand if somebody is falsifying their timesheets and being seen to get away with it that's a message for HR as well. If they are a stunningly brilliant copper who solves 100 crimes before breakfast, then I don't care what he's doing with his time or how many hours he works, he is being effective. If he is a crap copper who does nothing, then I still don't want them focusing on how many hours he worked, I want him improved or fired for his performance. Its difficult to think of a moment when I would believe that anybody should focus on his timekeeping - and if you're not focusing on his time, then there there will be no need for a timesheet. |
|
New Thu 3 Jan 13 13:31
Is 8am early? - Bromptonaut
|
|
>> If they are a stunningly brilliant copper who solves 100 crimes before breakfast, then I >> don't care what he's doing with his time or how many hours he works, he >> is being effective. It wasn't a copper it was a worker in a civilian office who is paid to be at their desk and productive for 36hrs a week. As there's no fixed arrival/departure or break time they either keep a manual timesheet or use a clock card system. That's the system and IME over 25years it works well in allowing for exigencies of London travel, family circs etc. and getting cover for longer than 9-5 without overtime. Fiddling the clock is, bluntly, fraud. It needs to be tackled. If not others see the wee being taken and respect for the whole system goes out of the window. |
|
New Thu 3 Jan 13 13:59
Is 8am early? - No FM2R
|
|
The point is the same, civvie or copper or waitress or bank exec. One should be paying and managing for effect, not for hours attended. And if you believe that timekeeping is the most important thing, then that will be what your staff focus upon. Respect for the whole timesheet system *should* go out of the window, along with the incompetent who initiated the process. Ignore the time worked, pay for effectiveness. Trust your staff to work out the needs of travel and the like. And fire those that don't. And a significant part of my role is increasing effectiveness. That almost always entails the removal or slackening of administrative control processes. Targets and controls drive behaviour. If you don;t want your staff clock-watching, then don;t do it yourself. If you want your staff to treat your company/force/service with maturity and responsibility, then treat them the same. Last edited by: No FM2R on Thu 3 Jan 13 at 14:01
|
|
New Thu 3 Jan 13 14:02
Is 8am early? - No FM2R
|
|
And controlled flexitime is an abomination.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Thu 3 Jan 13 at 14:02
|
|
New Thu 3 Jan 13 14:02
Is 8am early? - Bromptonaut
|
|
>> And controlled flexitime is an abomination. Whatever!! EDIT - Did the word controlled appear as an edit? Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Thu 3 Jan 13 at 14:04
|
|
New Thu 3 Jan 13 15:04
Is 8am early? - No FM2R
|
|
>> Did the word controlled appear as an edit? You lost me there a bit. I did edit my note, and I don;t remember exactly what I did. I wanted to change the meaning to be clear that I think flexible hours are a good thing, but administratively controlled flexitime is not. Was that your question? |
|
New Thu 3 Jan 13 15:41
Is 8am early? - Bromptonaut
|
|
>> You lost me there a bit. >> >> I did edit my note, and I don;t remember exactly what I did. I wanted >> to change the meaning to be clear that I think flexible hours are a good >> thing, but administratively controlled flexitime is not. >> >> Was that your question? Yes. Because of the way the quote function worked I hadn't noticed the word controlled which might have got a slightly more constructive response from me than 'whatever'. |
|
New Thu 3 Jan 13 15:56
Is 8am early? - No FM2R
|
|
>>which might have got a slightly more constructive response from me than 'whatever'. Well have another go. Admin Flexitime contributes nothing to satisfaction, productivity or effectiveness. However, it is easier than either forecasting or costing correctly and cheaper than ensuring appropriately skilled management. It encourages and contributes to management laziness and employee disillusionment. Now I don't know what you do, but I'll come and work for you for free plus 10% of measurable productivity increases or cost savings over any period you choose which result from any changes I drive. I will also take an escalating payment based on comparable employee satisfaction statistics. Last edited by: No FM2R on Thu 3 Jan 13 at 15:56
|
|
New Thu 3 Jan 13 14:14
Is 8am early? - John H
|
|
>> The point is the same, civvie or copper or waitress or bank exec. .... >> If you want your staff to treat your company/force/service with maturity and responsibility, then treat >> them the same. >> I sum it up thus: If the employee and/or manager and/or employer is watching the clock, there is something fundamentally wrong with the employee and/or manager and/or employer. As for the rest of the thread re. employee work ethic, I believe that anyone who wants to work in the state sector should be made to do at least three months of induction with the Army. That will soon teach them the meaning of flexi-time and over-time. Anyone (including directors and managers) who wants to work in the private sector should be made to work at least three months in John Lewis. Of course there are good and bad employers/managers/employees in all walks of life, but IME the worst of the workshy are to be found sheltering in the state sector. |
|
New Thu 3 Jan 13 16:43
Is 8am early? - Armel Coussine
|
|
>> increasing effectiveness. That almost always entails the removal or slackening of administrative control processes. You seem almost intelligent sometimes FMR. Pity about your social graces, but I suppose your staff just see them as one of the curses of life, like bad weather or disease. |
|
New Thu 3 Jan 13 17:35
Is 8am early? - Westpig
|
|
>> The point is the same, civvie or copper or waitress or bank exec. >> >> One should be paying and managing for effect, not for hours attended. >> >> And if you believe that timekeeping is the most important thing, then that will be >> what your staff focus upon. >> >> Respect for the whole timesheet system *should* go out of the window, along with the >> incompetent who initiated the process. >> >> Ignore the time worked, pay for effectiveness. Trust your staff to work out the needs >> of travel and the like. And fire those that don't. Interesting theory...may even work in the private sector. If you inherited an office full of staff, were salaried yourself i.e. no overtime and often had to be flexible with your own timings, so could do 5 hours one day, but 12 the next...and ..had made a conscious decision to stick to at least 8 hours a day in the office (even though you didn't have to, but wanted an example set about timing and commitment)...and ...noticed that on a day you could do your average 8 hours that you came in first (at 0800) and left last (at 1600)...and that kept happening...then you begin to wonder at the timings of others ...so you check. Nothing onerous, just a simple jotting down in a notebook of arrivals/departures and then check it against the flexi-time card. When one had big discrepancies to her advantage...you deal with it....and set up a system whereby they think you'll be regularly checking. I like the thought process of your theory..but..that's reliant on people playing ball...many don't. To maintain efficiency... and fairness to those that do play ball...you need to manage closely enough, so that those 'p' takers know they will come unstuck...and you need to keep them on their toes, forever...because they are 'p' takers. As for sacking them...not easy for established staff in the public sector...but I have achieved it. The amount of paperwork and preparation was unreal...and don't expect HR to do it for you..oh no, they are there for advice only, not actually getting stuck in so you can do the day job you're paid for..and most of the time HR were flapping about potential ET's. Last edited by: Westpig on Thu 3 Jan 13 at 17:36
|
|
New Thu 3 Jan 13 17:40
Is 8am early? - sooty123
|
| Did you get/notice any more work out of those you dealt with? |
|
New Thu 3 Jan 13 17:57
Is 8am early? - Westpig
|
|
>> Did you get/notice any more work out of those you dealt with? Difficult to say honestly, because it was a very busy hectic office anyway and the busyness/hectic nature only got worse..and...I retired mid way through some of my re-structuring. I'd been asked/tasked to go in there specifically to kick butt. I did get positive feedback form two (out of 9) staff, who independently and on the quiet thanked me for evening out the system so it was more fair...and unexpectedly had a third come up to me just before I left and give me a couple of gifts and thank me for 'transforming her life' and 'allowing her to enjoy coming to work again' (bullying issue of someone from a differing heritage). It was mostly two headstrong well established female staff members, who could and did work hard and knew a fair bit, but had not been managed properly for quite some time..so you had to pitch in at the right level so as not to totally de-motivate them, but nevertheless have them go in the direction you wanted, not what they wanted. It was hard work...and they tried hard to undermine me. They didn't have the sense to realise that my boss (who they'd keep going to the minute I wasn't about in an effort to get their own way) had actually discussed with me a strategy for me sorting them out prior to me going in there. My successor was exceptionally heavy handed in her approach (as is her way), which made me laugh...because all the apparent negatives posted about me on Facebook (never saw them, couldn't be bothered, although many told me about them) would be small fry compared to her. I walked out the door and let them all get on with it. My sergeant, who'd been intending to stay a lot longer, retired shortly afterwards, he said it was hell. Just because people got too big for their boots..happens if you give the wrong people too much leeway. |
|
New Thu 3 Jan 13 18:23
Is 8am early? - sooty123
|
|
>> >> Did you get/notice any more work out of those you dealt with? >> >> Difficult to say honestly.. Sounds like you had other problems in their as well. I meant if there wasn't a problem with them not completing their work and you dealing with it achieved little noticable extra work*, then i'm not sure it was worth it. *Your point about leaving noted |
|
New Thu 3 Jan 13 19:10
Is 8am early? - Westpig
|
|
>> Sounds like you had other problems in their as well. I meant if there wasn't >> a problem with them not completing their work and you dealing with it achieved little >> noticable extra work*, then i'm not sure it was worth it. Point taken, but I totally disagree...because....of the staff who do play the game and deserve to have their managers squaring up those that don't. I see it as a fairness issue...and... keeps motivated the good eggs as well as keeping on their toes the lazy, both of which is good for productivity. |
|
New Thu 3 Jan 13 19:20
Is 8am early? - sooty123
|
|
keeping on their toes the lazy, both of which is good for productivity. That's what I meant, in your case I don't think you could make that conclusion. There was no noticable link between productivity and keeping them on their toes with regards to flexitime. More broadly speaking I'm for flexitime where it works, but clearly that's not everywhere. I'd worry more about the end product rather than the means to it. I see what your driving at and in some cases it's needed, particularly in jobs which are critical to others being at the right time and place, I'm just not sure an office place is that place. |
|
New Thu 3 Jan 13 19:36
Is 8am early? - Westpig
|
|
>> More broadly speaking I'm for flexitime where it works, but clearly that's not everywhere. I'd >> worry more about the end product rather than the means to it. I see what >> your driving at and in some cases it's needed, particularly in jobs which are critical >> to others being at the right time and place, I'm just not sure an office >> place is that place. >> I can see what you're driving at..but that means a leeway that for me that is too much, particularly if one has already been willing to fiddle 1.5 hours on a given day. She could be as productive as you like, but is still fiddling the system (i.e. could be more productive and it was a hectic office) and is committing a criminal offence by falsely accounting her hours. If she's willing to fiddle that, right under the nose of her new manager, what else is she up to or is capable of? |
|
New Thu 3 Jan 13 19:40
Is 8am early? - sooty123
|
|
>> >> If she's willing to fiddle that, right under the nose of her new manager, what >> else is she up to or is capable of? >> Now there's a copper's mind at work ! ;-) |
|
New Thu 3 Jan 13 19:48
Is 8am early? - Zero
|
|
>> >> >> >> >> If she's willing to fiddle that, right under the nose of her new manager, >> what >> >> else is she up to or is capable of? >> >> >> >> Now there's a copper's mind at work ! ;-) But not a manager, alas. I think what Mark is saying is that you get productivity and results, by providing the team with clear goals and responsibility, achieving them by motivation, team work and a common purpose. Not pouring over their time sheets. More effort from workers goes into fiddling time sheets and billable hours than any productive output. The timesheet is not the department goal. |
|
New Thu 3 Jan 13 21:27
Is 8am early? - Westpig
|
|
>> I think what Mark is saying is that you get productivity and results, by providing >> the team with clear goals and responsibility, achieving them by motivation, team work and a >> common purpose. Can't disagree with that. >> Not pouring over their time sheets. Do disagree with that if they are fiddling their hours and it's become obvious. Should one ignore it and let them carry on? >>More effort from workers goes into fiddling >> time sheets and billable hours than any productive output. Quite agree...and it somewhat negates your arguement. >> The timesheet is not the department >> goal. No it isn't.....but it still has to be achieved and there has to be sanctions if it isn't. >> >> |
|
New Thu 3 Jan 13 21:38
Is 8am early? - Zero
|
|
> >> Do disagree with that if they are fiddling their hours and it's become obvious. Should >> one ignore it and let them carry on? There is no such thing as "fiddling hours" you should pay them for results, not hours. >> >> >>More effort from workers goes into fiddling >> >> time sheets and billable hours than any productive output. >> >> Quite agree...and it somewhat negates your arguement. Not in any shape or form it doesn't. >> >> The timesheet is not the department >> >> goal. >> >> No it isn't.....but it still has to be achieved and there has to be sanctions >> if it isn't. Time spent at work is not an achievement. Sure it can be measured, (which is why managers do it, because they can), but you haven't achieved anything. You have an office full of people costing you money. Look at it this way, if the department was outsourced, how would you decide how much to pay for the outsourced service? Filled in time sheets? All of this thread, and the one Brompy is embroiled in, proves why public services are inefficient. |
|
New Thu 3 Jan 13 22:05
Is 8am early? - swiss tony
|
|
>> There is no such thing as "fiddling hours" you should pay them for results, not >> hours. >> Time spent at work is not an achievement. Sure it can be measured, (which is why managers do it, because they can), but you haven't achieved anything. You have an office full of people costing you money. >> >> Look at it this way, if the department was outsourced, how would you decide how much to pay for the outsourced service? Filled in time sheets? >> >> All of this thread, and the one Brompy is embroiled in, proves why public services >> are inefficient. >> Oh my Lord.... I find myself agreeing with Z again.... My job's contracted hours are 8.00-5.30 with an hours lunch. I'm mostly at my work station for 7.45, and try to be finished by 5.30 - if there's customers to be served, either at my lunch break, or after 5.30 I will serve them. In return, my manager is flexible if I need to leave early. Do I get paid for any extra time I work ? No. not in wages, but yes as regards the above flexibility. |
|
New Thu 3 Jan 13 22:39
Is 8am early? - Manatee
|
|
You can't have a generalised argument about this narrow point that makes any sense. If you are considering people whose job is to sell electricity contracts, you probably wouldn't want to fire your best salesperson if he or she went home at 3 and put 5pm on the time sheet. On the other hand, there are jobs where the bums need to be on the seats. An exceptionally talented train driver who is a bad timekeeper is a problem. I don't think the measure has been invented that can't be internalised and have unwanted effects, whether it's a time sheet or a 'results' measure. I've never seen one anyway, and I've been professionally interested in performance measurement for about 20 years. Motivation is even more interesting. Very few people are really motivated by money - do people work harder just after a pay rise? Fear will only motivate people to do the minimum. The real motivators for most people are recognition, self-esteem, involvement in the bigger picture, responsibility, opportunities to get on ... etc. Just my ha'pennyworth. |
|
New Thu 3 Jan 13 22:43
Is 8am early? - Zero
|
|
>> On the other hand, there are jobs where the bums need to be on the >> seats. An exceptionally talented train driver who is a bad timekeeper is a problem. Indeed. Mind you as Timekeeping is probably the major talent train drivers need, you wouldn't employ one who wasn't. |
|
New Thu 3 Jan 13 19:41
Is 8am early? - R.P.
|
|
I'm shocked at the passive and active fiddling where I work - (a) A competent and intelligent colleague who can't meet simple zero stress targets for no apparent reason (b) A colleague who fills out her leave card in pencil and then erases entries to get more leave. Hate stuff like that. They wouldn't last long in my employ. In my old job I got rid of a worker who couldn't think for herself and create work and was happy to text all day, her replacement was a real work-horse - he kept me from napping some mornings... |
|
New Thu 3 Jan 13 18:25
Is 8am early? - No FM2R
|
|
>They didn't have the sense to realise that my boss (who they'd keep going to the minute I wasn't about in an effort to get their own way) had actually discussed with me a strategy for me sorting them out prior to me going in there. That is not their failure. It is a failure of one or both of you and your boss. |
|
New Thu 3 Jan 13 19:14
Is 8am early? - Westpig
|
|
>> That is not their failure. >> >> It is a failure of one or both of you and your boss. >> I'd love to know how you work that one out. By not telling them, we are kept in the picture i.e. my boss and I collaborating keeps us both informed of where we are and how they are thinking...and..what further measures are/are not needed. By spilling the beans early we'd not have that and i'd need other measures to find out what really was going on, especially as I was very busy in my own role and at least 2 days a week was off doing other things. |
|
New Thu 3 Jan 13 19:53
Is 8am early? - No FM2R
|
|
>>>> That is not their failure. >> >> It is a failure of one or both of you and your boss. >> >I'd love to know how you work that one out. This is a huge subject, and I have neither the time nor the motivation to cover it all in detail, any more than you would have the interest in reading it. However, in brief.... An employee's role is to perform in a certain job in a way that suits the job, the customer and his manager.. A Manager's role is to help the employee to understand that behaviour, and then manage them into adopting it. His secondary role is to manage his boss and to ensure that his boss's expectations are met, and that he and his boss work together to ensure coordinated management. A Director's role is to help his manager understand the behaviour required from the employees and to support his manager in motivating those employees in achieving that. So, one or more of the following occurred... You failed to help your employees understand the behaviour required. Your boss failed to help you understand the behaviours required. You failed to motivate the employees to adopt that behaviour. You and your boss failed to develop a mutual approach towards the management of the employees. Your boss failed to support you when the employees went to him behind your back. You failed to help your employees understand that it would be better for them to approach you directly. I fail to understand how you could ever possibly manage a group of people to high performance without understanding those fundamentals. But since the person after you still had to make changes, then perhaps you didn't. However, that is not likely to be your fault. I would see the fault there lying with your boss. Last edited by: No FM2R on Thu 3 Jan 13 at 19:54
|
|
New Thu 3 Jan 13 19:58
Is 8am early? - sooty123
|
| No FM2R's post reminds me of a saying 'There are no bad soldiers, just bad Officers.' |
|
New Thu 3 Jan 13 20:00
Is 8am early? - No FM2R
|
|
>> 'There are no bad soldiers, just bad Officers.' Overly simplistic, but reasonable. There are no bad soldiers, but frequently potentially good soldiers in the wrong job. Which is the fault of whoever put them there, or allowed them to be put there, or allowed them to stay there. Last edited by: No FM2R on Thu 3 Jan 13 at 20:01
|
|
New Thu 3 Jan 13 20:08
Is 8am early? - sooty123
|
|
>> >> 'There are no bad soldiers, just bad Officers.' >> >> >> Overly simplistic, but reasonable. No doubt, but we like to keep it nice and simple. :-) |
|
New Thu 3 Jan 13 17:52
Is 8am early? - No FM2R
|
|
>>If you inherited an office full of staff, Pretty much what I do. And there are usually quite a lot of them. And why would I worry about my average 8 hours? I no more focus on the hours I work then I do on the hours of those who work for me. >.then you begin to wonder at the timings of others Why would I do that? I worry about their effectiveness. >>that's reliant on people playing ball...many don't. Of course they do. Eventually. Even if that ball is out in the car park. You do not need to fire people (as in literally dismiss). That game can be played a number of ways and one of them will achieve what I wish. Of course you do put your finger on one thing; effectiveness is not a goal within the public sector. Timekeeping is. Which was my point in the first place. And finally... >>I like the thought process of your theory It is not a theory and I have proved it time and time again. As have others. I am not paid on hours worked either, I am paid on my results. And I eat well. |
|
New Thu 3 Jan 13 18:01
Is 8am early? - Westpig
|
|
>> Of course you do put your finger on one thing; effectiveness is not a goal >> within the public sector. Timekeeping is. If by that you mean that if the public pays for them to be at work for 37.5 hours per week...then they should be....then we are in agreement. If not, try again. |
|
New Thu 3 Jan 13 18:24
Is 8am early? - No FM2R
|
|
I'm not sure I've entirely got your meaning, but... >>If by that you mean that if the public pays for them to be at work for 37.5 hours per week. I think you'll find that "the public" was intending to pay them for a measure of effectiveness and particular role. It was the somewhat challenged and limited leadership that interpreted that to be defined and measured as 37.5 hours a week. Last edited by: No FM2R on Thu 3 Jan 13 at 18:25
|
|
New Thu 3 Jan 13 19:05
Is 8am early? - Westpig
|
|
>> I think you'll find that "the public" was intending to pay them for a measure >> of effectiveness and particular role. It was the somewhat challenged and limited leadership that interpreted >> that to be defined and measured as 37.5 hours a week. >> Interesting viewpoint. If it's the prerogative of a 'challenged' or 'limited' leader to want his publicly funded staff to work the hours the public pays them to...the i'll accept the label. If the work could be done in less hours, then we'd need to consider reducing staff. The reality is/was there was stuff that had to drop off the bottom, because we were too busy to achieve it, so there was the need for all to pull their weight and that included working the full hours they were paid to. |
|
New Thu 3 Jan 13 19:58
Is 8am early? - No FM2R
|
|
>>If it's the prerogative of a 'challenged' or 'limited' leader to want his publicly funded staff to work the hours the public pays them to...the i'll accept the label. Sadly its not, its the limitation of a challenged or limited leader that he feels time management is more important than effective performance. >>If the work could be done in less hours, then we'd need to consider reducing staff. OR, if you worked more effectively then you could achieve more. Which would help go towards resolving... >>there was stuff that had to drop off the bottom, because we were too busy to achieve it, You see, if you cannot do your normal job within normal hours, at least usually, then there is an idiot involved. Typically it is my job to work out where the idiot is; whether you are under performing, whether your manager is under performing, or whether the department has been set up incorrectly, usually within one of budget, goals or metrics being suspect. And a huge giveaway for an under performing area is excessive or obvious administrative control. Always. |
|
New Thu 3 Jan 13 20:14
Is 8am early? - Lygonos
|
|
Here's a management training video clip or two. I'm pretty sure one of the Bobs is Mark :-) www.youtube.com/watch?v=nV7u1VBhWCE www.youtube.com/watch?v=g2_Yi-1Ryf4 |
|
New Thu 3 Jan 13 20:26
Is 8am early? - No FM2R
|
| Managers should watch that second one at least twice. If they still think its funny, then they should watch it another 7 times. |
|
New Thu 3 Jan 13 20:32
Is 8am early? - Lygonos
|
|
Office Space contains some fabulous insights in how business works and fails. |
|
New Fri 4 Jan 13 01:30
Is 8am early? - Dutchie
|
| Agree the second one is spot on.It's a game and it always will be.>:) |
|
New Thu 3 Jan 13 20:22
Is 8am early? - Bromptonaut
|
|
My experience is much the same as Westpig's. Probably not surprising as I sispect you cannot get a Rizla between MPS civilian terms and those of the Civil Service. We're talking here about junior salaried staff; clerks and their immediate managers. Employment contracts specify contracted hours and staff choose whether to work '9 to 5' or be on flexi-time based on 36 hours a week and with a clock card or timesheet. Pretty well universally the chose flexi because, if nothing else, it makes the commute less of a high wire act. Their job is to process paperwork, input data to computers etc. Expectations of what they will achieve in a shift, requirements to work collaboratively and show initiative/responsibility and motivational stuff are completely separate from timekeeping. With a staff of twenty I probably spent a couple of minutes a day checking people's clock times. Not a focus, more one amongst many checks in a suite of so called management controls covering other assurance issues like bank reconciliation ( we handled cash) and security of financial stationery - machine printable cheques. Like WP I had a few hard cases who's been milking the system for years but once they were sorted it was probably only three or for times a year I needed to speak to somebody about timekeeping or clock says you were her but you wern't stuff. Last edited by: VxFan on Mon 7 Jan 13 at 00:42
|
|
New Thu 3 Jan 13 20:30
Is 8am early? - Lygonos
|
|
>> Their job is to process paperwork, input data to computers etc Hello? India? Hi there, I'm looking to have some data handling outsourced - currently paying 20 guys about £500k a year to do this - can you do it for £300k? You can! Excellent. |
|
New Thu 3 Jan 13 20:34
Is 8am early? - Zero
|
|
>> >> Their job is to process paperwork, input data to computers etc >> >> Hello? India? Hi there, I'm looking to have some data handling outsourced - currently paying >> 20 guys about £500k a year to do this - can you do it for >> £300k? >> >> You can! Excellent. You cant, government security policy prevents any paperwork or data from leaving the country. Even if you outsource to a UK based service provider, they can not then outsource it (but many do........!!!) |
|
New Thu 3 Jan 13 20:56
Is 8am early? - No FM2R
|
|
Zero - you and I both know the ways around that. However, Outsourcing is interesting for another reason. It is very rare that you meet someone who understands what it is for. Outsourcing is 40% more expensive than doing it properly yourself, if all else remains equal. So, the benefit of outsourcing is one of two things; - Someone else will do it better than you can or are prepared to - Someone else will force you to make changes you are not able to make yourself. A confusion is that people confuse outsourcing with offshoring, although both can happen at the same time, or indeed separately. Offshoring can incorporate the approach of outsourcing, but is primarily focused on changing the cost base. Outsourcing is almost always done by people who do not understand what they are trying to achieve, and in any case fail to achieve it. |
|
New Thu 3 Jan 13 20:33
Is 8am early? - No FM2R
|
|
>>With a staff of twenty I probably spent a couple of minutes a day checking people's clock times. Then never work for me. And never work for an organisation I control. What you are saying is that you cannot trust your staff, that you cannot motivate them to work correctly, that they will lie and cheat you and your company, and that you are failing to build a relationship with them enabling to understand what is required and understand how to both give and take advantage from that relationship. Irrespective of what I think of the time process, they know you think its important and they try to cheat it. So in your world if you had an incredibly over-achieving high-flyer who consistently over performed, but fiddled his timesheet every Friday afternoon to get an hour off, you'd have a problem with him. Whereas i would promote him, try and get another 19 like him, and trash the time control system and anybody who supported it. And you have 20 staff. Dear God, 20. And again, I have no issue with flexible working. |
|
New Thu 3 Jan 13 21:00
Is 8am early? - Bromptonaut
|
|
If they were high flyers they wouldn't be in these roles. High flyers don't see a career in the operational sausage machine, not even for the experience on their CV. The folks doing this are loyal and committed to the organisation but not people who'll set the world on fire. I trust them to work correctly and not to lie and cheat. I let them get on with the job becuase they don't need me standing over them. OTOH one or two, over a period of time and in a changing population, will try it on. And if others see that stuff going on they lose motivation - the rotting fish analogy. It's precisely because I want to keep motivation up that fiddling needs to be sorted. As Westpig says in a unionised public sector organisation firing them is neither easy nor quick. And, furthermore my managers REQUIRED me to run those checks. |
|
New Thu 3 Jan 13 21:05
Is 8am early? - No FM2R
|
|
>>my managers REQUIRED me to run those checks. Oh I have no doubt. I never expected them to be otherwise. > I let them get on with the job because they don't need me standing over them So you trust them to do their job but not complete their timesheet? Could that possibly be because doing their job is meaningful and they understand it, but that the timesheet system simply annoys them? Seems to me that, as is so often the case, the issue here is not the behaviour of the employees. And are you under the impression that I have not managed both unionised and public sector organisations? Last edited by: No FM2R on Thu 3 Jan 13 at 21:06
|
|
New Thu 3 Jan 13 21:19
Is 8am early? - Bromptonaut
|
| I trust them not to steal the department's money as well but that didn't mean there were no checks in place to catch the one who did. |
|
New Thu 3 Jan 13 21:28
Is 8am early? - No FM2R
|
|
You should try valuing them...... - If they were high flyers they wouldn't be in these roles. - High flyers don't see a career in the operational sausage machine, - not people who'll set the world on fire. I'd get rid of you for saying that about your staff in public. >>that didn't mean there were no checks in place to catch the one who did. Probably too much time spent monitoring the timesheet system and little enough on what really matters. Look, if we over simplify; What you need from your people is as many pieces of paper processed in a single day. It is of no value to you that they spend 8 hours, 6 hours or 20 hours doing it. So, if one person was doing 1,000 in 8 hours and another was doing 5,000 in 7 hours and then skiving for an hour,which is more valuable to your company? So why are you measuring them on the hours they worked and how accurately they filled in their timesheet? Why aren't you targetting them on how many pieces of paper they process? You are measuring your staff on something which has no value to you. And they know that so you're peeing them off into the bargain. They know that you don't care about their job, they know you don;t care about them. They know that you measure their hours. And like I mentioned so far above, a manager will manage the most complex thing he understands. Last edited by: No FM2R on Thu 3 Jan 13 at 21:29
|
|
New Thu 3 Jan 13 21:38
Is 8am early? - sooty123
|
|
>> You are measuring your staff on something which has no value to you. >> We went through some change where'd been posted in the past, one of the phrases that stuck in my mind was; everything that has a value can be measured, but not everything that can be measured has a value. |
|
New Thu 3 Jan 13 21:40
Is 8am early? - Westpig
|
|
>> Probably too much time spent monitoring the timesheet system and little enough on what really >> matters. Are you really saying that someone fiddling their hours on their time sheet i.e. false accounting, a criminal offence....and their manager has noticed it...should have their manager completely ignore it? >> Look, if we over simplify; What you need from your people is as many pieces >> of paper processed in a single day. It is of no value to you that >> they spend 8 hours, 6 hours or 20 hours doing it. >> So, if one person was doing 1,000 in 8 hours and another was doing 5,000 >> in 7 hours and then skiving for an hour,which is more valuable to your company? Let's over simplify it back. One person might manage the 1,000 in 8 hours, but with support /training /motivation etc might manage 1,500 eventually. The other might manage 5,000 in 7 hours, but 6,000 in the 8 hours they are being paid for. >> >> So why are you measuring them on the hours they worked and how accurately they >> filled in their timesheet? Why aren't you targetting them on how many pieces of paper >> they process? Because I noticed an anomaly in the time they were at work versus the time they said they were at work. They were underhand. >> >> You are measuring your staff on something which has no value to you. Yes it does. The people that don't take the 'p' deserve to have their managers closely supervise those that do. >> >> And they know that so you're peeing them off into the bargain. Good, maybe they'll comply with the rules as they know them and have chosen to ignore. >> >> They know that you don't care about their job, they know you don;t care about >> them. They know that you measure their hours. An assumption too far. They know I cannot be 'had over' and will not put up with slack behaviour and that I reserve the right to manage and have the department run in the fashion I think, not what they think..which is the whole point of having a manager in there. >> |
|
New Thu 3 Jan 13 21:47
Is 8am early? - Zero
|
|
>> Are you really saying that someone fiddling their hours on their time sheet i.e. false >> accounting, a criminal offence....and their manager has noticed it...should have their manager completely ignore it? Thats not management, thats policing. >> An assumption too far. They know I cannot be 'had over' and will not put >> up with slack behaviour and that I reserve the right to manage and have the >> department run in the fashion I think, not what they think..which is the whole point >> of having a manager in there. So, when you got them all doing the "correct amount of time" by how much were the departments goals and achievements improved? |
|
New Thu 3 Jan 13 21:48
Is 8am early? - No FM2R
|
|
No, they should get a manager who knows how to manage rather than an administrator who knows how to enforce rules mindlessly. Management is a skill. >>and that I reserve the right to manage and have the department run in the fashion I think, not what they think..which is the whole point of having a manager in there. Absolutely, comprehensively and totally WRONG. It is not even slightly the point of having a manager there. And as a matter of fact, they don't have a *manager* there. They have a supervisor, and not one who should ever be promoted. You are there to help the group perform, not enforce rules that you don't even know the purpose of. Last edited by: VxFan on Mon 7 Jan 13 at 00:40
|
|
New Thu 3 Jan 13 22:25
Is 8am early? - Westpig
|
|
>> No, they should get a manager who knows how to manage rather than an >> administrator who knows how to enforce rules mindlessly. You don't know that, you are making assumptions with the limited knowledge you have after applying my limited responses to the scenario you have in your head. >> >> Management is a skill. Yes, one that takes years to hone and one that not everyone truly 'gets'. >> >> >>and that I reserve the right to manage and have the department run in the >> fashion I think, not what they think..which is the whole point of having a manager >> in there. >> >> Absolutely, comprehensively and totally WRONG. It is not even slightly the point of having a >> manager there. No, you are the one who is wrong. I had just come from a near 3 year posting on an emergency response team. I was the senior person on that team and had responsibility for 50 staff. When going there I found a significantly under achieving outfit that had lost its' way...badly. Upon leaving it had been transformed, the staff could hold their heads up high and say they were the best or equal best team (out of 5), rather than the noticeably last place they had been in. It was hard work, I had to get rid of people, I had to discipline people, I had to try to provide positives without any real resources. It was a fair/firm lead from the front, set your goals/expectations and allow them to thrive. I took great pleasure in the way that teams was transformed and it was the individuals, with guidance, who achieved it. My last 15 months of service was in a very busy office. I asked for the posting (as I knew my time was up on the emergency team and it was the only bearable posting I wanted, other than applying for something completely elsewhere, which didn't suit my travel arrangements knowing my limited time left with that organisation). I knew the office was a problem. My boss knew there were problems in the office and we discussed my plans to deal with them. He wanted a strong leader to go in there and sort it out and was pleased i'd volunteered, although I suspect I was going in there whether I volunteered or not. Furthermore, one of the civilian managers in the office (subordinate to me) came and sought me out before the postings were arranged and asked me to apply, because she felt she needed more support dealing with two strong willed individuals. So in I go. The two strong willed ones were good at their jobs (mostly), but were well set in their ways and intimidated some of the others (to the extent one would have been perfectly entitled to have claimed bullying). They were resistant to change and there was a lot of change happening and about to happen. I was also at an advantage in that I had performed this role earlier in my career, as a Sergeant and had picked up various skills/courses relevant to it..that most Inspectors do not have. The 2 tried to have me over at various times and the pattern was constant. If I could have a quid for the amount of times I was told "we always do it like that". Well not any more. They needed to be very firmly handled, so that the inevitable changes needed to move forward could be achieved with as much harmony and flexibility that could be achieved in the circumstances. The status quo was not a valid option. When I noticed that one person was taking the 'p' with her times..and noticeably so, I put it right. I believe that is what is expected of any manager and was part of a bigger picture of ensuring compliance by two difficult people. It was a 'management chat' with her direct line manager present..and me, with a reminder of the standards I expected, the disciplinary /criminal offences committed and a warning of consequences if ignored. In my 22 years of being a manager, I have never before needed to look at anyone's time sheets...and in the 14 months afterwards did nothing more than a cursory check on this one, albeit I let the problem couple think I was paying more attention than I was, whilst letting the others in to the fact that I wasn't, so they knew I wasn't looking at them. Some of what you have posted makes an awful lot of sense. Some of what you have posted is somewhat concentrating unnecessarily on one narrow point that you've taken out of context, some of what you've posted is total tosh. Last edited by: VxFan on Mon 7 Jan 13 at 00:40
|
|
New Thu 3 Jan 13 22:44
Is 8am early? - No FM2R
|
|
I have nothing further to say. You either get it or not. Ultimately what you do works or it doesn't. And you'll be rewarded for it or you won't. I honestly hope your way works for you. It wouldn't be my way. |
|
New Thu 3 Jan 13 22:53
Is 8am early? - Zero
|
|
>> I have nothing further to say. >> >> You either get it or not. Ultimately what you do works or it doesn't. And >> you'll be rewarded for it or you won't. >> >> I honestly hope your way works for you. It wouldn't be my way. And its no longer the way in commerce or Industry. |
|
New Thu 3 Jan 13 23:59
Is 8am early? - Westpig
|
|
>> And its no longer the way in commerce or Industry. >> Yeah, right. So commerce or industry would put up with strong willed junior staff, dictating terms, being belligerent about change, bullying others and fiddling their hours by up to 1.5 hours per day? I don't think so. |
|
New Fri 4 Jan 13 08:50
Is 8am early? - Zero
|
| They wouldn't be so obsessed by time sheets and keep calling it criminal. |
|
New Fri 4 Jan 13 14:53
Is 8am early? - Westpig
|
|
>> They wouldn't be so obsessed by time sheets and keep calling it criminal. >> 1, Let me repeat something from my last post "In my 22 years of being a manager, I have never before needed to look at anyone's time sheets...and in the 14 months afterwards did nothing more than a cursory check on this one, albeit I let the problem couple think I was paying more attention than I was, whilst letting the others in to the fact that I wasn't, so they knew I wasn't looking at them". 2, Look up the definition of 'False Accounting'. 3, Do you think it is reasonable for a problematic junior member of staff to be fiddling her hours blatantly in front of the new boss...in a police station...at a time he is trying to initiate change and compliance, such change and compliance she is resisting? Enlighten me, what would you do in those circumstances. |
|
New Fri 4 Jan 13 18:01
Is 8am early? - Zero
|
|
>> 2, Look up the definition of 'False Accounting'. Only a policeman would equate attendance with False accounting, it would not even be considered like that anywhere else in employment Ok it can be part of a disciplinary process leading to dismissal, but criminal? you wouldn't get it past the CPS for sure, Its contractural not criminal. |
|
New Fri 4 Jan 13 19:08
Is 8am early? - Westpig
|
|
>> Only a policeman would equate attendance with False accounting, it would not even be considered >> like that anywhere else in employment Maybe not. But do you not think that the petulant junior staff member ought to consider that when they are taking the 'p' out of their new police manager, whilst being employed by the police, you know the outfit that investigate crime? You don't seem to have answered the other part of my post..the bit where you were going to enlighten me as to the correct management action that should have been taken. |
|
New Fri 4 Jan 13 19:15
Is 8am early? - Zero
|
|
>> >> Only a policeman would equate attendance with False accounting, it would not even be >> considered >> >> like that anywhere else in employment >> >> Maybe not. But do you not think that the petulant junior staff member ought to >> consider that when they are taking the 'p' out of their new police manager, whilst >> being employed by the police, you know the outfit that investigate crime? >> >> You don't seem to have answered the other part of my post..the bit where you >> were going to enlighten me as to the correct management action that should have been >> taken. I merely passed comment that blathering on constantly about Time Sheets and crime would not have been high on a non police managers agenda, but I shall comment I see no reference to any team building or motivation in your particular management scenario, no shared goals merely a disciplinarian activity. A scenario, regime and management that could only have happened in a disciplined (police or military) workplace. And there I shall leave it. Last edited by: Zero on Fri 4 Jan 13 at 19:17
|
|
New Fri 4 Jan 13 19:21
Is 8am early? - Westpig
|
|
>> I merely passed comment that blathering on constantly about Time Sheets and crime would not >> have been high on a non police managers agenda, For the THIRD time "In my 22 years of being a manager, I have never before needed to look at anyone's time sheets...and in the 14 months afterwards did nothing more than a cursory check on this one, albeit I let the problem couple think I was paying more attention than I was, whilst letting the others in to the fact that I wasn't, so they knew I wasn't looking at them". The only 'blathering on constantly' about time sheets is in yours and noFM2R's mind set. >> but I shall comment I see >> no reference to any team building or motivation in your particular management scenario, no shared >> goals merely a disciplinarian activity. No, because unsurprisingly in a forum such as this, you can only paste small snippets, otherwise you'd be writing war and peace and unnecessarily monopolising the forum. >> And there I shall leave it. Well as that is so unusual, i'll take it as a back track. >> |
|
New Fri 4 Jan 13 19:29
Is 8am early? - Zero
|
|
I suggest you look at this thread and tell us WHo brought up time sheets, and how many times YOU mentioned it >> Well as that is so unusual, i'll take it as a back track. >> >> Are you really such a pratt or are you working at it? |
|
New Fri 4 Jan 13 19:35
Is 8am early? - Bromptonaut
|
|
Having lurched through a wormhole onto a planet I share with WP I doubt he realised Mark had such a strong view on the subject. I'd be less 'out' than he is about the right to manage stuff but the junior staff were IME as keen as the managers to see clock fiddlers nailed; they're carrying the can when the fiddler's taking their time off in lieu. |
|
New Fri 4 Jan 13 19:45
Is 8am early? - Westpig
|
|
>> but the >> junior staff were IME as keen as the managers to see clock fiddlers nailed; they're >> carrying the can when the fiddler's taking their time off in lieu. It is surprising how much goodwill you can generate on this subject matter alone...when the good egg's realise someone is championing their cause and addressing the problematic ones. Valid point about the wormhole as well. Strange old world. Don't worry, it'll soon be back to normal. |
|
New Fri 4 Jan 13 20:23
Is 8am early? - No FM2R
|
|
>>Mark had such a strong view on the subject. I have no career. I have no salary. I have no benefits nor any rights. I am paid, on occasion, to address organisations which are facing a challenge. I am typically paid by investors and/or banks who have bought, merged, developed or invested in an enterprise which, for one reason or another, is not performing at the required level. The amount I am paid is a combination of my track record on previous engagements, and my expected results in this one. I usually get very little if I fail to meet the expected levels. I have no expectations, no ego, no set way of doing things, and no need to appear superior, to appear the toughest or to prove I am in control. I do not seek approval, I do not need to be liked and I have no desire for rules. I am lazy, detest admin, hate detail and aspire to zero involvement in operational activities. I will drive effectiveness. Part of effectiveness is a satisfied and appropriately targeted and rewarded staff. Staff who realise that they will benefit directly if I am successful. I simply need any group, company, or other organisation I take over to perform at a higher level than it did before I took it over, which is also the expectation of my employers. I succeed. Always. Every time. I never fail. [touch wood]. My organisations are effective, economic, fit for purpose, results oriented and typically with very high levels of staff retention and promotion. I cost a lot of money because of that. Really, a lot. Sometimes I wonder how I am lucky enough [and, dear God, do I think I am lucky] to be paid so much and enjoy such a privileged lifestyle. And then I read a discussion like this and remember. So of course I have strong opinions on this, its because it is essentially what I do. And I am proud of how damned good I am at it. And I despair at how so few others are. Because managing is basically very easy. But you need to understand your purpose and value. i.e. you have none. You are there simply to ensure that something occurs in the way that it should, done by the people who know how to do it. I know nothing about weapons systems. But I've managed people who control them. Because my skill is not theirs. My skill is managing them. And if you justify your management performance by being proud that nobody will mess with you, because nobody will argue with you, because everybody has done what they were told, and because every rule was obeyed, I would fire you so fast your backside wouldn't get hit by the revolving door as you went through it. My staff frequently argue with me. And surprisingly often its just as well they did, because they improve the situation. My staff frequently tell me that one or more rules are ridiculous. Which is just as well, because so many of them are initiated by unimaginative jerks who do not understand where they fit into the world and why not. And since I have the artistic talent of a brick, I could not make, produce or write anything, operations are beyond me, and I'm never going to invent anything, then it is just as well I get sought out by companies simply because of my management ability. Last edited by: VxFan on Mon 7 Jan 13 at 00:40
|
|
New Fri 4 Jan 13 21:34
Is 8am early? - Westpig
|
|
>> You are >> there simply to ensure that something occurs in the way that it should, done by >> the people who know how to do it. ...and presumably, if people try to obstruct that, you take steps to ensure that it goes the way you wish it to. |
|
New Fri 4 Jan 13 21:42
Is 8am early? - Zero
|
|
>> I have no career. I have no salary. I have no benefits nor any rights. >> I am paid, on occasion, >> And since I have the artistic talent of a brick, I could not make, produce >> or write anything, operations are beyond me, and I'm never going to invent anything. Now that's not a very promising CV is it, but at least it fits on one sheet of A4. Last edited by: Zero on Fri 4 Jan 13 at 21:42
|
|
New Fri 4 Jan 13 21:50
Is 8am early? - Bromptonaut
|
|
>> >>Mark had such a strong view on the subject. >> >> I have no career. I have no salary. I have no benefits nor any rights. >> I am paid, on occasion, to address organisations which are facing a challenge. >> >> I am typically paid by investors and/or banks who have bought, merged, developed or invested >> in an enterprise which, for one reason or another, is not performing at the required >> level. And you probably earn in a month what I get in a year and a half. Which is of course a completely different world from being a junior/middle manager in a permanent organisation. One with with a strong stable culture and expectations. One of those cultures is timekeeping, probably based on a legacy from rigid 9-5 and by analogy the factory floor. Fiddling time usually goes with other problems like doing the minimum and dodging the phone or issues raised by colleagues up or down the workstream. That's the paradigm within which you have to be a proper manager and motivate people, develop them and set/achieve team goals etc. There's no dividing wall between supervision and management; you progress through a crossover from one to the other. |
|
New Fri 4 Jan 13 22:48
Is 8am early? - John H
|
|
>> I have no career. I have no salary. I have no benefits nor any rights. >> >> A company listed on a certain LinkedIn profile has apparently been: " STRUCK OFF AND DISSOLVED Filed on: 07 Jun 2011" after "Second notification of strike-off action in London Gazette (Section 652)". |
|
New Fri 4 Jan 13 19:38
Is 8am early? - Westpig
|
|
>> Are you really such a pratt or are you working at it? >> Ah..a bit of a chomp there...truth hit home has it? Last edited by: Westpig on Fri 4 Jan 13 at 19:38
|
|
New Fri 4 Jan 13 19:41
Is 8am early? - Zero
|
| whatever |
|
New Fri 4 Jan 13 12:09
Is 8am early? - spamcan61
|
|
>> No, they should get a manager who knows how to manage rather than an >> administrator who knows how to enforce rules mindlessly. >> >> Management is a skill. >> >> >>and that I reserve the right to manage and have the department run in the >> fashion I think, not what they think..which is the whole point of having a manager >> in there. >> >> Absolutely, comprehensively and totally WRONG. It is not even slightly the point of having a >> manager there. And as a matter of fact, they don't have a *manager* there. They >> have a supervisor, and not one who should ever be promoted. >> >> You are there to help the group perform, not enforce rules that you don't even >> know the purpose of. >> Absolutely spot on. It was really really dperessing to watch a former 'blue chip' employer go from employing managers whose attitude was "how can we help ensure the team deliver on time and budget" to highly paid administrators whose attitude was "you haven't booked xyz hours against cost code* vvxxyyz-xxvvvz therefore you are a bad employee" and couldn't motivate their way out of a wet paper bag. Stock price went from around 65 EUR to 3 EUR, with 'help' from the latter group. *we worked out that there were about 1000 potential cost codes per employee. Lord knows what the timesheet system cost to manage. Last edited by: VxFan on Mon 7 Jan 13 at 00:41
|
|
New Fri 4 Jan 13 12:17
Is 8am early? - Alanovich
|
|
*shudder*. That's the sort of system I'm in, spam. It's not about attendance at the office, it's about what you book to what code. Any errors are treated severely, but this is really down to internal politics than any real world effect of getting it wrong. The most stressed person in our organisation is the person responsible for generating and managing timecodes. She demonstrates a most staggering physical signal of stress for a middle aged person, but I'm not going to describe it in public. I think there may be a degree of cross purposes in the discussions between NF and WP, in that WP is very focused on attendance, whereas the "important" aspect of timekeeping in modern corporate environments is very much the timesheet, which generates billable hours to the customer. For instance, I may attend the office for less than 7.5 hours in any given day, but woe betide me if I book less than that on the timesheet. I can see a Police operation requiring more emphasis on attendance timekeeping than a modern day corporate environment, particularly in my field. Edit: I'm not saying the timesheet obsession in corporates is a good thing. Last edited by: Alanović on Fri 4 Jan 13 at 12:18
|
|
New Fri 4 Jan 13 13:02
Is 8am early? - Focusless
|
|
>> *shudder*. That's the sort of system I'm in, spam. It's not about attendance at the >> office, it's about what you book to what code. I'm lucky enough to be in the opposite. No timesheets, no booking codes that I'm aware of (project managers might be using them, I don't know), flexitime including working from home 2 days a week, and no dress code either (there might be a 'not too scruffy' clause in the rules & regs somewhere). Seems to work pretty well. |
|
New Fri 4 Jan 13 13:14
Is 8am early? - Alanovich
|
| Gizza job. |
|
New Fri 4 Jan 13 13:31
Is 8am early? - Focusless
|
| Well if you fancy getting your hands dirty our last on-site IT person leaves today :) |
|
New Fri 4 Jan 13 13:33
Is 8am early? - Alanovich
|
| I was only being mildly serious. I don't think I could commute to Bath with my current personal circs, sadly. |
|
New Fri 4 Jan 13 13:38
Is 8am early? - Focusless
|
|
>> I was only being mildly serious. Don't worry, so was I. But I hope your circs improve anyway. |
|
New Fri 4 Jan 13 20:34
Is 8am early? - Zero
|
|
>> Well if you fancy getting your hands dirty our last on-site IT person leaves today >> :) The first thing I would ask is "why did he leave?" |
|
New Thu 3 Jan 13 21:55
Is 8am early? - Bromptonaut
|
|
For the avoidance of any doubt the picture I'm painting is drawn from an amalgam of experiences over several years. The people concerned knew the roles they were in and would be comfortable with my descriptions. Some people are happy to be plodders doing the same thing day in day out you know. The high flyer/sausage machine thing is simply a fact. You're putting way too much emphasis on the timesheet/timecard issue. I'm not measuring them on the accuracy of their timesheet. I would watch for those who are clocked in but in the coffee shop. It often goes with other dodgy behaviours too, like doing the absolute minimum, avoiding the phone and not supporting colleagues. Oddly enough if one of a team is getting time off by massaging the clock it hacks off the others too. Watching for it and dealing with and caring about them and their jobs is not an either/or shout. Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Thu 3 Jan 13 at 21:56
|
|
New Thu 3 Jan 13 22:13
Is 8am early? - No FM2R
|
|
>> I would watch for those who are clocked in but in the coffee shop Why? Why on earth would you give a crap if they are in the coffee shop but achieving everything they should? And why would you be happy they were at their desk if they were failing to achieve their goals? >>if one of a team is getting time off by massaging the clock it hacks off the others too. Only if you measure it and therefore say its important. >>You're putting way too much emphasis on the timesheet/timecard issue Not really. You're failing to understand its significance, and the messages it sends. >>drawn from an amalgam of experiences over several years So am I. And I take over other people's groups and organisations and improve them. And I have never met an enforcer and defender of timesheet systems that I didn't ultimately remove from that role. And in my opinion the SINGLE MOST IMPORTANT failure I ever detect in an under-performing organisation is a preoccupation with attendance. Although dress code used to run close, but not so much these days. Its always there. And its like a belisha beacon over the head of the organisation's issue and my next target. 1) You will manage the most complex thing you understand. 2) Your staff will target over-performance at the thing you focus on. Those are facts of life. Work it out for yourself. |
|
New Thu 3 Jan 13 10:28
Is 8am early? - Westpig
|
|
>> Sounds like a brief for an OSPRE scenario: >> >> Its your first day at Sanford. You are taking over from a retired Insp. You >> have 5 minutes to read a report left by him detailing how he would like >> you to do the legs of a civilian member of staff who has been taking >> the pee for years. In the next scenario you will meet that member of staff >> :) Hell FC, you sure know how to put a shiver through the spine..that brought back some memories....;-) What an utterly futile waste of time that system was. |
|
New Fri 4 Jan 13 00:40
Is 8am early? - Fullchat
|
|
I had flashbacks and cold sweats typing it! Still seems to be running its course. Last edited by: Fullchat on Fri 4 Jan 13 at 00:41
|
|
New Fri 4 Jan 13 16:32
Is 8am early? - Robin O'Reliant
|
| Reading this lot makes me glad I'm self employed. |
|
New Fri 4 Jan 13 16:33
Is 8am early? - Clk Sec
|
| Makes me glad I'm retired. |
|
New Fri 4 Jan 13 16:55
Is 8am early? - Manatee
|
|
Here is Inspector Gadget's latest blog. He's been a bit whiney recently, but this is interesting and throws an interesting sidelight (in the comments mainly) on the perils of managing with targets. inspectorgadget.wordpress.com/2013/01/04/over-the-fields-and-far-away/ |
|
New Fri 4 Jan 13 16:56
Is 8am early? - Armel Coussine
|
|
I didn't like being a manager and have always detested being 'managed'. I've been freelance for a very long time, but there's no escape from managerial carphawks. They still try it on, and often get away with it too. 'If you want work, you have no choice but to crawl.' Yuck. But it's true. |
|
New Fri 4 Jan 13 18:57
Is 8am early? - Dutchie
|
| Very true A.C.Snap about being managed never liked it myself and the crawlers go a long way.I am to much of a free soul glad I'm out of it. |
|
New Fri 4 Jan 13 19:49
Is 8am early? - Focusless
|
| I'm quite happy being managed by someone who knows what they're doing, or rather by someone who I think knows what they're doing - might not be the same thing! Only had minor management responsibility for brief spells in the past 25 years, none currently, and intend to keep it that way. |
|
New Fri 4 Jan 13 19:56
Is 8am early? - R.P.
|
| I largely self-manage - I know what I need to do, go in and do it and go home on time. My work is monitored - rarely get a comment on it good, bad or indifferent. Ideal really. |
|
New Fri 4 Jan 13 20:03
Is 8am early? - Runfer D'Hills
|
|
I have never worked in an environment where I had to adhere to specific hours. My work has always been measured and indeed remunerated on results. I'm sure I couldn't easily adapt to any other way now. I couldn't imagine having to ask permission to go for lunch or to nip to the bank or whatever. If there's work to be done, it and more, gets done, if there isn't, well, I do something else I want to but reluctantly as it's costing me money.
Last edited by: Humph D'Bout on Fri 4 Jan 13 at 20:05
|
|
New Fri 4 Jan 13 20:20
Is 8am early? - Focusless
|
|
BTW regarding the original question, I get up at 5:35 to be in the office just after 9 :o It's not quite so bad as it sounds - that's only 3 (non-consecutive) days a week, and the journey consist of a nice walk and sitting(/working/sleeping) on fairly quiet trains. Could be in half an hour earlier for an extra £2.50. |
|
New Fri 4 Jan 13 20:30
Is 8am early? - Runfer D'Hills
|
|
On the days I go into my head office ( it's a 3 hour drive away ) I get up at 4.00, leave at 5.00 in the office for 8.00 and generally leave at 18.00 and home for 21.00. Only go when I feel like it though. Less than once a week on average. Other times I go to our other office in London it's a similar timeline. That's maybe once or sometimes twice a week. The rest of the time I'm either working from my office at home ( that takes about 30 seconds to commute ) or I'm travelling in the UK or abroad. Never stop to measure hours worked. Some weeks it's lots I suppose. Others not so many. Don't often take any lunch or coffee breaks, just grab food and drinks on the run. Only managed to take 8 days off/holiday last year though... Tired. |
|
New Fri 4 Jan 13 20:30
Is 8am early? - smokie
|
| "Could be in half an hour earlier for an extra £2.50." You only get a fiver an hour? That's below minimum wage! :-) |
|
New Fri 4 Jan 13 21:49
Is 8am early? - rtj70
|
| I think Focusless is right to get the cheaper train. Probably less crowded as well as saving £2.50. |
|
New Fri 4 Jan 13 22:11
Is 8am early? - Focusless
|
|
Plenty of space in both; couldn't say which actually had more bums on seats. And it means an extra quarter of an hour hanging around on a Reading platform (no waiting room while they're doing the major redevelopment) as well as a train swap with another 15 minutes waiting at Swindon. So not ideal. But hey - that's £7.50 a week in the replacement car fund :)
Last edited by: Focusless on Fri 4 Jan 13 at 22:11
|
|
New Fri 4 Jan 13 22:34
Is 8am early? - Zero
|
|
>> Plenty of space in both; couldn't say which actually had more bums on seats. And >> it means an extra quarter of an hour hanging around on a Reading platform (no >> waiting room while they're doing the major redevelopment) as well as a train swap with >> another 15 minutes waiting at Swindon. So not ideal. But hey - that's £7.50 a >> week in the replacement car fund :) The most crowded trains in the country www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-20783986 One wonders how the shirkers of Henley manage to get to work later (08:28 arrival) later than the hard workers of Woking (08:19 arrival) I can attest to the crowded nature of the Woking train, but as I could get on near the start one could get a seat, tho it was preferable to catch the earlier, less crowded 07:16 (arrival time 07:58) tho strangely it sat in one station for 5 minutes, purely to free up Woking for the arrival of the aforementioned 2nd most crowded train in the country. |
|
New Fri 4 Jan 13 22:36
Is 8am early? - Lygonos
|
|
A big issue that drove (?still drives) the inefficiency that is inherent in many businesses, especially in the civil/public service, relates to the second clip I posted from Office Space: There was no motivation to cut costs. In fact quite the opposite - if your department underspent by £XXX, your budget for the following year was cut by £XXX. Thus if an underspend was looming, department heads would spend a bunch of money on IT/hardware/furniture/whatevah to prevent budget cuts. |
|
New Fri 4 Jan 13 22:41
Is 8am early? - Zero
|
|
>> A big issue that drove (?still drives) the inefficiency that is inherent in many businesses, >> especially in the civil/public service, relates to the second clip I posted from Office Space: >> >> There was no motivation to cut costs. In fact quite the opposite - if your >> department underspent by £XXX, your budget for the following year was cut by £XXX. >> >> Thus if an underspend was looming, department heads would spend a bunch of money on >> IT/hardware/furniture/whatevah to prevent budget cuts. never went on Salaries tho did it, |
Forum Version 3.0 - By Khoosys
Car4play Forum
