Non-motoring > UKIP Couple and Fostering.	Miscellaneous
Thread Author: Bromptonaut	Replies: 227

Sat 24 Nov 12 09:48   UKIP Couple and Fostering. - Bromptonaut

BBC are reporting that Rotherham Council ended a fostering arrangement when it emeerged that foster parents were UKIP members: www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-20474120 The kids were apparently 'non British EU'. Reasonable action or diabolical liberty? Reply to this message | Report message

Sat 24 Nov 12 09:52   UKIP Couple and Fostering. - Lygonos

On first view it's utter nonsense. Of course membership of ANY political party or religious organisation should remove the right to have/care for children ;-) UKIP is far from a proscribed organisation - membership is perfectly acceptable for police, doctors, teachers, etc. To use it as the sole reason to remove foster children is surely challengeable, unless there were concerns about the actions/behaviour of the couple concerned. "The council said there was no blanket ban on UKIP members being foster parents and that this couple would be allowed to foster other children in the future." If this isn't indirect racial discrimination then I'm the Pope of Scotland. Last edited by: Lygonos on Sat 24 Nov 12 at 09:57 Reply to this message | Report message

Sat 24 Nov 12 09:57   UKIP Couple and Fostering. - -

Presumably the council have the policy that membership of any political party would result in similar measures. Or are potential foster parents only allowed to have approved political allegiances, does this list of approved vary as the hymn sheet turns, indeed did this couple make the silly misrtake of not turning the page at the right moment. One could ask the question 'who exactly are the fascists' in totalitarian Rotherham? As is often the case i am drawn to conclusion that we as an electorate have the govt and apparatchiks we deserve. Last edited by: gordonbennet on Sat 24 Nov 12 at 09:57 Reply to this message | Report message

Sat 24 Nov 12 10:05   UKIP Couple and Fostering. - sooty123

A stupid decision. They even said that the couple don't have strong political views, not harm to any of kids and they were happy with their past foster children. Reply to this message | Report message

Sat 24 Nov 12 10:21   UKIP Couple and Fostering. - Ambo

Sackable decision, more like. Is the local authority Labour, I wonder? Reply to this message | Report message

Sat 24 Nov 12 10:37   UKIP Couple and Fostering. - WillDeBeest

Diabolical liberty, Bromp. UKIP as an institution is not racist - even if a fair few of its individual members and supporters are - so being a UKIP member cannot in itself be enough to disqualify a couple as foster parents, especially if they're otherwise doing a decent job. Naughtie on Today did reasoned discussion no favours this morning by haranguing the Rotherham councillor instead of interviewing her, to the point where I felt sorry for her. I think she's made the wrong decision here, but it wasn't Naughtie's place to tell her so. Reply to this message | Report message

Sat 24 Nov 12 10:29   UKIP Couple and Fostering. - Manatee

Of course it's silly and Joyce Thacker sounded embarrassed defending it in the wireless interview this morning. PC is to blame though. She had been criticised in a previous case to not having proper regard to "cultural and ethnic" matching and actually said she had "no choice" which she quite possibly believed. I still think she got it wrong, through a combination of ignorance and the perceived need to be "on message". It's not the culture of the foster parents that's the problem, it's the culture in social services. It reminded me of the Orkney child non-abuse scandal when part of the circumstantial justification was that "the authorities learned Quakers prayed without a minister present - and gathered in a circle." I'll never forget that, being brought up with Quakerism. As the parent of 6 and 10 year olds at the time, I was genuinely frightened that people with that kind of power could be so stupid. Reply to this message | Report message

Sat 24 Nov 12 10:35   UKIP Couple and Fostering. - Zero

This council are stupid, utterly utterly stupid, stupid beyond belief. Not for the decision to move the kids, but for coming up with this huge piece of garbage as an excuse. What were they thinking? "Oh i know - I'll make my self look stupid today" They should all be sent to fill holes in the road, its all they are fit for. Reply to this message | Report message

Sat 24 Nov 12 10:54   UKIP Couple and Fostering. - Robin O'Reliant

The trouble is that many of the died in the wool PC brigade live in their own little bubble. They don't associate with anyone who reads the Daily Mail, votes Conservative or watches Top Gear believing that all who do are just a minority of facists out of touch with everyone else. They are genuinely shocked to discover that some of their loonier decisions turn out to be controversial and are ridiculed by the population at large. Reply to this message | Report message       1

Sat 24 Nov 12 14:41   UKIP Couple and Fostering. - Westpig

>> The trouble is that many of the died in the wool PC brigade live in >> their own little bubble. They don't associate with anyone who reads the Daily Mail, votes >> Conservative or watches Top Gear believing that all who do are just a minority of >> facists out of touch with everyone else. They are genuinely shocked to discover that some >> of their loonier decisions turn out to be controversial and are ridiculed by the population >> at large. >> +1 A child with parents or foster parents that have flaws (don't we all) is far better off than a child in a children's home. If this family were out on BNP marches, then fair enough....they weren't, they support a political party that many of us (me included) would consider voting for. It is left wing politics coming to the fore in a most disgusting way..because kids are involved..they are moved from a safe haven and bundled somewhere else because some piece of crap doesn't like the views of the foster parents. How warped can you get. Reply to this message | Report message

Sat 24 Nov 12 11:10   UKIP Couple and Fostering. - NortonES2

Are the UKIP party closet racists? I know of no evidence. Being right-wing and xenophobic is not sufficient in itself. The stated policies of UKIP might cloak their real view of race but how would social workers know this? This leads onto whether the outlook of the assessors (social workers) is prone to racist and/or PC assumptions. White + different religion + right wing = unsuitable? Bit late in the day as the adoption process would have been the time to decide on compatibility if such a decision can safely be made. It doesn't look good but perhaps not all is known about the situation. On reflection, it stil doesn't look good! Reply to this message | Report message

Sat 24 Nov 12 11:30   UKIP Couple and Fostering. - Roger.

UKIP are, as far as I know, the only party which proscribes utterly, members, or prospective members who have been involved in any way with the BNP, EDL, NF and so on. The UKIP PPC for the forthcoming Croydon by-election is a man who moved to the UK, from the West Indies, many years ago and has been active in local social projects. The Party is not xenophobic - Nigel Farage himself is married to a German lady! It may, or may not be, a coincidence that there is a by-election in Rotherham, to replace the disgraced Dennis McShane. UKIP's policies of controlling immigration, exit from the E.U. , sensible power generation policies, and curbing the awful P.C. mind-set in bureaucrats and other policy makers, is anathema to the left, whose typical excesses are clearly seen in Rotherham. Reply to this message | Report message       1

Sat 24 Nov 12 11:45   UKIP Couple and Fostering. - Armel Coussine

One can only agree with the mob view here. UKIP isn't racist even if some of its members are. As for the council, the problem with these people isn't that they are 'PC', it's that they are dumb, arrogant interfering busybodies. Reply to this message | Report message       2

Sat 24 Nov 12 11:55   UKIP Couple and Fostering. - NortonES2

Quite wrong AC. Some are intelligent interfering busybodies. That's what they do. Should have intervened more, when it goes wrong. Or have kept their noses out, when it goes wrong. Damned if they do, damned if they don't. I just wonder why anyone goes into child related social work.... Reply to this message | Report message

Sat 24 Nov 12 12:06   UKIP Couple and Fostering. - No FM2R

>>I just wonder why anyone goes into child related social work.... Quite clearly a lot of them go into that type of work because they care about the children. No doubt there are some idiots, but I suspect that most of them are not. The very nature of their work is interefering and nosey. Even if you are a great parent, they can't know that unless they stick their nose in and see for sure. The woman who made this decision hasn't done it because she's evil. She may very well be wrong, but I doubt she is evil or stupid and there is no conspiracy. If we had read a media outrage that the fostering agency was allowing fostered children to be corrupted by racist members of UKIP, I wonder what we would have thought of the woman who had allowed it to happen. Reply to this message | Report message       3

Sat 24 Nov 12 12:52   UKIP Couple and Fostering. - NortonES2

+1. Reply to this message | Report message       2

Sat 24 Nov 12 14:01   UKIP Couple and Fostering. - Manatee

I failed to see what was offensive about FM2R's and NIL's posts above. Maybe the scowler can enlighten us. I absolutely think the official in question was a captive of the blame culture under which she works (and may well have absorbed herself, as normal people do). I doubt I'd enjoy an evening in the pub with her, but she is unlikely to be an idiot or malicious. My SiL sees it all the time - she works for a charity, in cooperation with social services, supporting teen mothers. The simple fact is that they are not allowed to make "mistakes". SiL and other team members are under investigation now because something has "gone wrong". She is philosophical and content in her own mind with the actions she took, but could still be disciplined or even lose her job. I have been lucky enough for most of my career to have worked for people and organisations who in general have been happy to let me make decisions and live with the consequences, at least provided I didn't keep making the same mistake anyway. A couple of times I have worked for people who second guessed me all the time - it was impossible. EDIT. I see Bromp is now under fire from the thought police too. Last edited by: Manatee on Sat 24 Nov 12 at 14:04 Reply to this message | Report message

Sat 24 Nov 12 14:05   UKIP Couple and Fostering. - Dutchie

Son in law is a social worker he leads a small team.It's a type of job like walking on eggshells. Reply to this message | Report message

Sat 24 Nov 12 15:02   UKIP Couple and Fostering. - NortonES2

There is only one solution to this cowardly assault by the nasty-face specialist. I suggest all participants should award each other a growly. I have never given a growly although I might do so for the purpose of spoiling the spoiler! Reply to this message | Report message

Sat 24 Nov 12 16:43   UKIP Couple and Fostering. - Pezzer

there are certainly some thought police about , especially in Rotherham. ps I am a foster carer ..... Reply to this message | Report message

Sun 25 Nov 12 18:07   UKIP Couple and Fostering. - No FM2R

>>Maybe the scowler can enlighten us. I suspect you'll find that if they had the balls to do that, then they would have posted an argument, criticism or comment in the first place, rather than an anonymous cartoon. Last edited by: No FM2R on Sun 25 Nov 12 at 18:07 Reply to this message | Report message       1

Sat 24 Nov 12 13:24   UKIP Couple and Fostering. - Armel Coussine

>> Quite wrong AC. Some are intelligent interfering busybodies. That's what they do. Points taken. And of course something along these lines has to exist. But the rules, guidelines and so on are quite often applied in a cowardly, 'well I'm covered anyway, better safe than sorry' sort of way. It's possible that fosterers who are members of UKIP might expose young children to 'unsuitable literature and conversation', but not very likely surely? Who talks serious politics with nippers? It shouldn't be beyond child protection officials to make an informed assessment of what these people are like - OK it would seem judging by their record and quoted statements - and go with that. Mistakes are always made of course. But making them on purpose just to cover your own bum seems craven to me. Reply to this message | Report message       2

Sat 24 Nov 12 12:50   UKIP Couple and Fostering. - Bromptonaut

>> The Party is not xenophobic - Nigel Farage himself is married to a German lady! I don't think Farage's marriage tells us very much about anything except Nigel himself. The phrase 'some of by best friends are black' is the archetypal opening for a racist rant!! Reply to this message | Report message       1

Sat 24 Nov 12 11:38   UKIP Couple and Fostering. - Bromptonaut

This wasn't adoption it was a fostering placement. Possibly short term while natural parents were enabled to cope. Certainly terminable at any time. As far as I can tell there's no judgement that the parents were unsuitable to foster at all. The decision was specific to one placement. The kids are described as non British white EU. Can probably assume Polish. On that basis I can see the Council's issue. UKIP may not be racist but it's certainly anti immigration including from EU. It's policy in 2010 was to Ensure all EU citizens who came to Britain after 1 January 2004 are treated in the same way as citizens from other countries (unless entitled to ‘Permanent Leave to Remain’) I suspect that's code for send them home. There's a risk there, particularly if fosterers are activists, that kids might witness inappropriate literature or conversation. A complaint from natural parents in such a circumstance would likely generate quite a bit of heat and negative publicity for the Council. Damned if they do and damned if they don't. They were also open enough to put somebody up for the media instead of just giving an anodyne 'no comment on individual cases' type lawyers statement. Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Sat 24 Nov 12 at 11:40 Reply to this message | Report message       1

Sat 24 Nov 12 11:48   UKIP Couple and Fostering. - NortonES2

Brompt: you are right. Fostering, not adoption. Reply to this message | Report message

Sat 24 Nov 12 12:15   UKIP Couple and Fostering. - Roger.

Inappropriate literature and/or conversations , eh? Many would consider Labour, Liberal and Conservative literature and/or conversations to be inappropriate! (Or even worse, actions taken over the years by LibLabCon politicians.) Last edited by: Roger on Sat 24 Nov 12 at 12:17 Reply to this message | Report message       2

Sat 24 Nov 12 12:41   UKIP Couple and Fostering. - Robin O'Reliant

Some of the most racist people I have known were died in the wool Labour voting trade unionists. Nothing I have ever heard from UKIP suggests they are racist in any form, if anyone thinks that stricter immigration controls and being against EU membership constitutes racism they are wrong. Reply to this message | Report message       2

Sat 24 Nov 12 12:55   UKIP Couple and Fostering. - Bromptonaut

I was trying to think how this might have come to light. Answer I suspect is Rotherham by-election and perhaps the display of posters and other campaign material. The first elections in which I was aware of what was happening were 70 & 74 when I was 10 & 14 respectively. I'm sure I read stuff that came through the door and certainly by 74 understood it well. If kids in this case are of impressionable reading age then they certainly might be issues with the sort of UKIP policy mentioned above being advanced by those charged with their care. Reply to this message | Report message

Sat 24 Nov 12 13:27   UKIP Couple and Fostering. - -

''If kids in this case are of impressionable reading age then they certainly might be issues with the sort of UKIP policy mentioned above being advanced by those charged with their care. '' Oh come on Bromp, nulab or tory party member is just as likely to have political literature lying around, would that literature would be approved indeed preffered reading for such children or do those carers have the correct approved mindset to indoctrinate them in more suitable views. Pity the social services apparatchiks currently at large in Rotherharm (not a typo), together with those in other former mill towns weren't quite so on the ball when real harm grooming etc came to light. Reply to this message | Report message       2

Sat 24 Nov 12 13:14   UKIP Couple and Fostering. - NortonES2

The stated position of UKIP may not be racist. But their members, like the particular trade unionists you cite, may well be. Who knows. It's pretty wide spread even if covert. However, it would currently be political suicide to be identified as a racist party, whether or not the leaders or the followers are so. Farage has worked to position UKIP away, 1. from the single-issue monomaniac original and 2. from the BNP and the like. Reply to this message | Report message

Sat 24 Nov 12 13:24   UKIP Couple and Fostering. - Dutchie

The UK is not the only country with immigration problems.This was always bound to happen people moving from poorer regions of Europe to the richer parts.Why are we surprised this has happend.? Reply to this message | Report message

Sat 24 Nov 12 13:15   UKIP Couple and Fostering. - madf

Heaving seen the Joyce Thacker interview, there was "no question that the foster parents were not providing suitable care". I quote loosely but the meaning is clear: the foster parents were doing OK. So nothing to do with care and everything to do with politics. Last edited by: madf on Sat 24 Nov 12 at 13:16 Reply to this message | Report message       2

Sat 24 Nov 12 13:44   UKIP Couple and Fostering. - Ambo

I expect Christopher Booker will have a field day with this in tomorrow's Sunday Telegraph and I would think Farage has a sue-able case. Reply to this message | Report message       1

Sat 24 Nov 12 13:48   UKIP Couple and Fostering. - Bromptonaut

>> I expect Christopher Booker will have a field day with this in tomorrow's Sunday Telegraph >> and I would think Farage has a sue-able case. No doubt the right wing commentariat will have a field day. What on earth could Farage sue for? Reply to this message | Report message

Sat 24 Nov 12 14:02   UKIP Couple and Fostering. - WillDeBeest

Being rhymed with 'marriage'? Reply to this message | Report message

Sat 24 Nov 12 14:13   UKIP Couple and Fostering. - Dutchie

Farage sounds like a French name.I like listening to his banter a mild Geert Wilders. Reply to this message | Report message

Sat 24 Nov 12 14:16   UKIP Couple and Fostering. - Manatee

>> Being rhymed with 'marriage'? "Barrage" suits him better. Reply to this message | Report message       1

Sat 24 Nov 12 14:24   UKIP Couple and Fostering. - Ambo

Not personally but surely there is a case to answer for slander of the party? Reply to this message | Report message

Sat 24 Nov 12 15:00   UKIP Couple and Fostering. - Roger.

I've missed a chance to meet Nigel Farage today. He's in Rotherham as part of the by-election campaign there. I was going to help with canvassing : maybe tomorrow! Unfortunately we've had - for the tenth time in a couple of weeks - British Gas in to try and sort out our CH boiler de-pressurising. (Success at last, XXing fingers: a screw had penetrated a pipe and the leak, instead of dripping had sprayed up and soaked some now VERY expanded, woodchip-type floor panels, so no damp on ceilings AND it was ME that found the leak) Reply to this message | Report message

Sat 24 Nov 12 15:27   UKIP Couple and Fostering. - Zero

And that's another thing, it gives that tit Ferengi publicity and something to crow about. Reply to this message | Report message

Sat 24 Nov 12 15:38   UKIP Couple and Fostering. - Roger.

order-order.com/2012/11/24/progressive-culture-war-caused-rotheram-ukip-child-catcher/ Reply to this message | Report message

Sat 24 Nov 12 16:04   UKIP Couple and Fostering. - Dog

I likes the comments Dodger!! :-} Reply to this message | Report message

Sat 24 Nov 12 21:28   UKIP Couple and Fostering. - Cliff Pope

They could be even more unsuitable parents and be Christians. (Apologies for using the c-word) Reply to this message | Report message

Sun 25 Nov 12 13:48   UKIP Couple and Fostering. - Ambo

There are worse things than being a Christian, like for example a well-off couple of my acquaintance who wanted to adopt. He went to a public school (oh dear) and is a merchant Banker (oh no). She was also privately educated (do me a favour). As a speech and language therapist she was used to dealing with children (weeell ok ...) but, to avoid confusing patients, she used standard RP pronunciation (Oxford English), as such professionals tend to do (gasp). One way and another the adopted children would have had a new head start in life but I expect you have already guessed why the application was turned down. Using that exact term, they were condemned as being "too posh". Last edited by: VxFan on Sun 25 Nov 12 at 17:47 Reply to this message | Report message

Sun 25 Nov 12 13:50   UKIP Couple and Fostering. - Ambo

I've been Rotheramed. Don't tell even this term for a certain type of banker is banned! Reply to this message | Report message

Sun 25 Nov 12 13:54   UKIP Couple and Fostering. - Dog

merchantbanker :-)) Reply to this message | Report message

Sun 25 Nov 12 15:17   UKIP Couple and Fostering. - WillDeBeest

There are Christians who shouldn't be allowed near their own children, never mind anyone else's. Home education, anyone? Reply to this message | Report message

Sun 25 Nov 12 15:23   UKIP Couple and Fostering. - Robin O'Reliant

>> There are Christians who shouldn't be allowed near their own children, never mind anyone else's. There are lots of people who should never be allowed near children, but they keep banging them out one after the other with the rest of us paying for them. Reply to this message | Report message       1

Sun 25 Nov 12 17:51   UKIP Couple and Fostering. - VxFan

>> Don't tell even this term for a certain type of banker is banned! Only when used for its Cockney rhyming slang meaning, but the trouble is the filter isn't intelligent enough to know. Now edited and corrected. Reply to this message | Report message

Sun 25 Nov 12 21:22   UKIP Couple and Fostering. - Roger.

Report from UKIP Rotherham election office reckons that they have signed up 50 new members – all walk-ins to the office! Reply to this message | Report message

Mon 26 Nov 12 06:29   UKIP Couple and Fostering. - madf

>> Report from UKIP Rotherham election office reckons that they have signed up 50 new members >> – all walk-ins to the office! >> So all a secret recruiting ploy by the social worker who is a closet UKIP supporter? Or the Law of Unintended Consequences? :-) Reply to this message | Report message

Mon 26 Nov 12 08:02   UKIP Couple and Fostering. - Roger.

It's a politically correct, Common Purpose inspired, smear which has rebounded on the smearers! The information was not released by UKIP and the Party is not happy for the children. From an official UKIP email, to party members :- "We should not forget that this is a tragedy which has torn apart an innocent family, and however positive an impact this has had on our Party’s support this is an occasion for sadness – how could our nation be in such a state that a family can be torn apart over a UKIP Party membership?" Last edited by: Roger on Mon 26 Nov 12 at 08:02 Reply to this message | Report message

Mon 26 Nov 12 08:14   UKIP Couple and Fostering. - Zero

>> "We should not forget that this is a tragedy which has torn apart an innocent >> family, and however positive an impact this has had on our Party’s support this is >> an occasion for sadness – how could our nation be in such a state that >> a family can be torn apart over a UKIP Party membership?" Oh wow - pour on the tears, not making political capital out of this are we. They were not a family "torn apart" They were not even a family. It was a temporary arrangement that was always going to end. See what I mean? this is the kind of carp the social services have provided by coming up with the "UKIP" issue, and as I said should be sacked at once for such stupidity. Reply to this message | Report message

Mon 26 Nov 12 08:19   UKIP Couple and Fostering. - -

What's the betting the one responsible for this political dogma decision walks away with a council tax payer funded golden handshake of five or six figures. Probably gardening leave and maybe a dismissal to follow, but you can bet on it that a large sum will change hands. Last edited by: gordonbennet on Mon 26 Nov 12 at 08:20 Reply to this message | Report message       1

Mon 26 Nov 12 09:37   UKIP Couple and Fostering. - madf

>> What's the betting the one responsible for this political dogma decision walks away with a >> council tax payer funded golden handshake of five or six figures. >> Probably gardening leave and maybe a dismissal to follow, but you can bet on it >> that a large sum will change hands. >> Meanwhile the foster parents get nowt and the children have been uprooted... Reply to this message | Report message

Mon 26 Nov 12 12:06   UKIP Couple and Fostering. - Bromptonaut

Emerging facts suggest that like most of these things it's c*ck up rather than conspiracy. The Council got their knuckles rapped by the judge at a previous hearing for a placing that didn't meet the kids cultural needs. They're then moved on and subsequently it emerges they've been accomadated in a household that's apparently sympathetic to a party that's dog whistling to those that want to send the Poles/lithuanians etc home. Risk of their being subjected to views/literature etc supportive of that view. Panic ensues about another awkward session in the judge's chambers and kids are moved on again. Reply to this message | Report message

Mon 26 Nov 12 16:42   UKIP Couple and Fostering. - Armel Coussine

This case has taken a swerve with UKIP milking it and posing as a victim, with Mr Garage getting pugnacious with the government. It also seems that the council may have made the decision not out of jobsworthish bum-covering to comply with regulations, but partly at least for ideological reasons. Neither is any sort of reason for bouncing some taken-into-care nippers around and perhaps separating siblings. That is still outrageous. The unfortunate UKIP-supporting couple at the centre of this have now got a high profile and are probably on the crap list of their council. Will they find it more difficult to get foster children now? Reply to this message | Report message       1

Mon 26 Nov 12 16:58   UKIP Couple and Fostering. - car4play

You make a good point AC. All of this has been an unexpected PR bonanza for UKIP. Reply to this message | Report message

Mon 26 Nov 12 17:28   UKIP Couple and Fostering. - Stuu

>>All of this has been an unexpected PR bonanza for UKIP.<< Perhaps the most significant point for UKIP is both Milliband and Gove went on national TV and proclaimed UKIP a mainstream party despite having previously suggested quite the opposite. It was a gold standard endorsement and no amount of publicity could have had the same effect. Reply to this message | Report message       1

Mon 26 Nov 12 19:31   UKIP Couple and Fostering. - Roger.

I was in UKIP's Rotherham campaign office today and the phone lines were red-hot. Many calls were from the media wanting (and getting) quotes both from the party and the foster parents at the heart of the affair. Others were from members of the public wishing to join UKIP and still others from folk making modest donations The media have, as far as I have seen, been accurate in their reporting of the quotes as I was in the office when at least two were given out by the party campaign manager. The weather was VILE in the town, so much so that little open-air canvassing was possible: people do not want to stand and talk politics in a downpour. The mood in the office was mixed, with pleasure at UKIP's high profile and dismay that it had taken something like this to spark media (and Labour party Head Office!) interest in what is still, a Labour safe seat. I met UKIP's PPC - a very nice grounded, ordinary lady, not a professional politician, but thankfully in the circumstances, not unused to being in the political limelight. Oh - and I met Neil Hamilton and Christine Hamilton, who not came across as very decent people, with no side at all, despite their "interesting" history. Even better, Mrs. H. bought me a non-alcoholic beer! Last edited by: Roger on Mon 26 Nov 12 at 19:31 Reply to this message | Report message       1

Mon 26 Nov 12 19:28   UKIP Couple and Fostering. - Westpig

>> Emerging facts suggest that like most of these things it's c*ck up rather than conspiracy. I do not believe that for one second. It was political dogma, plain and simple. The employees in that field, felt safe to do that, because of the environment they work in. I saw that sort of thing many times in London Boroughs when I worked up there... and...my friend's wife still works in such an environment, on attachment from the police..some of the stories she tells are virtually unbelievable, but are sadly true. I think it is exceptionally sad that someone in a position to influence the well being of children, has their head so far up their backside that they think it appropriate to act like this. Unfortunately it is fairly common. Reply to this message | Report message       2

Mon 26 Nov 12 19:32   UKIP Couple and Fostering. - R.P.

It flies in the face of putting the child first, especially that Children's Homes are paragons of health, safety and positive experiences for already potentially damaged children. Reply to this message | Report message       1

Mon 26 Nov 12 19:52   UKIP Couple and Fostering. - Westpig

>> It flies in the face of putting the child first, especially that Children's Homes are >> paragons of health, safety and positive experiences for already potentially damaged children. >> Before I left, we all had 'Every Child Matters' training (I understand the name has changed already). In my naivety, I actually believed that for once there might be some joined up thinking and the people that really needed it (the children) might actually be put first. Suffice to say, it didn't happen. Everyone's agendas came first. One outfit wouldn't talk to the other, nothing changed. Reply to this message | Report message       1

Mon 26 Nov 12 20:02   UKIP Couple and Fostering. - Westpig

Can you imagine the hoo-hah if a Tory run council removed children from foster carers because they belonged to a left leaning political party? Reply to this message | Report message       1

Mon 26 Nov 12 21:12   UKIP Couple and Fostering. - Bromptonaut

>> Can you imagine the hoo-hah if a Tory run council removed children from foster carers >> because they belonged to a left leaning political party? It's quite difficult to construct a 'mirror' scenario on that basis. First of all, whatever the mythology, officers are not on the whole beholden to the politics of those for the time being elected to power. Might be different in districts where elections change nothing but on the whole if you want a career in local (or national) government you have to work with today's regime. Secondly, there is a justification, at least theoretically, for keeping immigrant kids away from people supporting anti immigration/immigrant views. The only comparator I can see with people with left leaning views would involve the offspring of bankers, aristocracy etc. The odd thing is people with the money and contacts don't usually have problems getting relatives or more informal contacts to help out when marriage breakdown or whatever muggers up their childcare. Social services don't get a look in. Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Mon 26 Nov 12 at 21:15 Reply to this message | Report message

Mon 26 Nov 12 20:04   UKIP Couple and Fostering. - Zero

You are being a little bit blinkered there WP. And here is how I know. Nicole is a Childrens Community Nurse, providing out reach care for kids. She has had all the training given to deal with this situation, and is empowered to raise merry hell cross function and cross region if in her opinion the chiild is at risk. She has attended many case conferences, and all are balanced and her input (as a clinical nurse lead) overides any political pc or dogma. I cant say its universal, because I don't know, but I do know it only came in because of Victoria Climbie. Now with respect to this case, frankly I don't think it is in the childrens best case to be put with foster parents who hold anti immigration views (remember fostering is only short term care - dont try and run with this broken up family garbage). The trouble is we will never know if they did hold such views, because of the stupidity of raising the UKIP smokescreen. So the choice to move the kids may or may not have been right. We will never find out now. Reply to this message | Report message       1

Mon 26 Nov 12 21:26   UKIP Couple and Fostering. - R.P.

I did some introductions between "my" old LA's Fostering Unit and the local Islamic centre some years afo - it was to do specifically place very young "illegals" with culturally appropriate foster parents. The cultural ignorance ran pretty deeply - shockingly so with people charged with such onerous responsibilities. Reply to this message | Report message

Mon 26 Nov 12 21:35   UKIP Couple and Fostering. - Westpig

>> You are being a little bit blinkered there WP. And here is how I know. >> Nicole is a Childrens Community Nurse, providing out reach care for kids. See, now I don't think I am. My Nicole was a primary school teacher (currently doing the stay at home mum bit) and for the last 3 years of her employment was employed solely as the Senco (Special needs co-ordinator) for a primary school. We worked on the same London Borough. We'd occasionally, in general terms, talk about the issues relating to children... and the common denominator was always how hopeless the system was. I can't really go in to a huge amount of detail on here, but there were many, many times when I personally, from my professional viewpoint, felt the system was dreadful. >> I cant say its universal, because I don't know, but I do know it only >> came in because of Victoria Climbie. I cannot work out why all the multi-agencies got training about child protection and how important it is to be joined together in the same goal...then they all go their own separate ways again. My lot weren't off the hook either. There were numerous times I couldn't get my local CAIT (Child Abuse Investigation Team) interested in something. I wouldn't mind if they looked at it and then decided otherwise, it was getting someone interested in the first place. Imagine the scenario whereby a father was alleged to have badly indecently assaulted his female child and her mother (his wife). The local CID (on the borough I was in charge of and for which I was supervising the whole matter) pull out all the stops for the adult, as that is their investigation...yet the investigation for the child has the recommendation to put it on a crime record and we'll pick it up on mon morning??? Meanwhile all the forensics go out the window and unless dad is locked up all weekend, he could influence the child..or worse. >> Now with respect to this case, frankly I don't think it is in the childrens >> best case to be put with foster parents who hold anti immigration views There are many, many people of all walks of life and from all political persuasions who hold views that immigration should be conducted sparingly. Margaret Hodge has learnt the hard way that many of her Labour constituents had firm views on it, and to be re-elected she had to go down that route as well. Many migrants or people that are offspring of migrants have more firm views about immigration than a lot of the rest of the population. The curbing of some immigration is a perfectly acceptable viewpoint..and I see no valid reason why anyone should be prevented from fostering children, (inc migrant children) if they choose to hold those views. Let's face it, they can't be that racist or xenophobic can they, they've tried to do good for migrant children. Last edited by: Westpig on Mon 26 Nov 12 at 21:37 Reply to this message | Report message       1

Mon 26 Nov 12 21:43   UKIP Couple and Fostering. - Zero

>The curbing of some immigration is a perfectly acceptable viewpoint..and I see no valid >reason why anyone should be prevented from fostering children, (inc migrant children) if they >choose to hold those views. I see millions of valid reasons why its absolutely and completely 100% incompatible. >>Let's face it, they can't be that racists or xenophobic can they, they've tried to do good for >>migrant children. We'll probably never find out if thats true or not. Reply to this message | Report message

Tue 27 Nov 12 17:02   UKIP Couple and Fostering. - Westpig

>> I see millions of valid reasons why its absolutely and completely 100% incompatible. >> Can you explain some then, please. All human beings have faults. Many human beings have differing views. We are not robots. If Mr and Mrs Alf Garnett wanted to foster immigrant children, then there might well be an eye brow raised, but presumably as this family were happy for immigrant children to be placed with them...they were not.. However, if a family that support UKIP...and... who have taken the trouble to go through all the hoops that fostering entails (and they are enormous) are comfortable fostering three immigrant children.....then those kids are far, far better off than being separated or being in a children's home. With all the upset those kids have had, at least all three were together. However, now, in case their foster parents MIGHT negatively influence them... and some considerable years in the future they MAY be confused about their identity....they've been split up and bunged in two different places. How many families with children of their own totally sod up their lives..and yet all we're talking about here is a firm view about unrestricted immigration? >> >> We'll probably never find out if thats true or not. Well there's a damned good pointer. They accepted three children of an immigrant background into their home and were willing to look after them...and had passed all the tests to do so. >> Reply to this message | Report message       1

Wed 28 Nov 12 23:20   UKIP Couple and Fostering. - Zero

>> >> I see millions of valid reasons why its absolutely and completely 100% incompatible. >> >> >> >> Can you explain some then, please. Surely I dont need to. You dont need to be told that people holding anti immigration views are not the best place for immigrant children to be fostered into. Please dont tell me I have to explain that to you >> Well there's a damned good pointer. They accepted three children of an immigrant background into >> their home and were willing to look after them...and had passed all the tests to >> do so. Child abuser have become foster parents to get access to kids in the past. But as I said - we don't know, and you dont know. Reply to this message | Report message

Thu 29 Nov 12 13:30   UKIP Couple and Fostering. - Westpig

>> Surely I dont need to. You dont need to be told that people holding anti >> immigration views are not the best place for immigrant children to be fostered into. Please >> dont tell me I have to explain that to you Yes, you do. I think there should be limits to immigration. Not because I don't want different coloured people here, but because we have a welfare state that's bursting at the seams, a free NHS that's bursting at the seams and a sort of free for all for people that have no means. As sad as that is i.e. people having no means...I do not believe this country can afford to put right the worlds ailments, not on our own anyway, so I think we should be more like Australia and limit those that come here. I also think i'd make a good foster parent and my wife certainly would, inc to immigrant children. So yes please, explain away. Reply to this message | Report message

Thu 29 Nov 12 13:49   UKIP Couple and Fostering. - No FM2R

>> Not because I don't want different coloured people here, but because we have a welfare state that's bursting at the seams So, you're issue is the financial burden currently placed upon the welfare services, especially where that burden is brought by people who have not contributed to the system? Then I assume your wish to restrict immigration comes from the fact that you see immigration as the source of that burden? Presumably you therefore think that restricting immigration will resolve those issues and the welfare state will be able to continue unburdened? In that case you are probably completely wrong. Wrong about the primary burden. Wrong about the solution. Wrong about the impact of that solution. I do agree though that none of that has any particular impact on your suitability as a foster parent. But then your views are not anti-immigration, are they. They're driven by concerns about the welfare state. I can see nothing wrong with wishing to reduce the financial burden on this country. Sadly I find that many people who talk about restricting immigration are not driven by such concerns. They're frequently driven by a feeling that immigrants are unfairly taking their jobs, are all criminals who dodge VAT, and that all the misfortunes they suffer are put upon them by the evil immigrant. I'd see a problem with an immigrant child being fostered in that environment, wouldn't you? However, its all irrelevant because the people concerned in this case made a decision which to many seems inappropriate out of fear of being burned at the stake by the media. I doubt that UKIP, being a member of UKIP, or anything related to UKIP featured in that decision beyond how it would be perceived in the media. Reply to this message | Report message

Thu 29 Nov 12 13:57   UKIP Couple and Fostering. - Westpig

>> So, you're issue is the financial burden currently placed upon the welfare services, especially where >> that burden is brought by people who have not contributed to the system? >> >> Then I assume your wish to restrict immigration comes from the fact that you see >> immigration as the source of that burden? >> >> Presumably you therefore think that restricting immigration will resolve those issues and the welfare state >> will be able to continue unburdened? You assume too much. The welfare state issues are mostly caused by lazy Brits...who need a good kick up the rectum. I don't have a problem with migration, as long as those migrants can support themselves here and are willing to contribute to this great country and by that, i'd include respect what goes on here and speak the lingo etc, etc. But as our current system allows penniless terrorists/ criminals to stay, but sends back well established tax paying good contributors, then I'd like better curbs in place, so the former can't get here in the first place. ...and as part of that migration if we gradually evolve as a country as all countries do...fine. The Oz system would suit me. Last edited by: Westpig on Thu 29 Nov 12 at 13:59 Reply to this message | Report message

Thu 29 Nov 12 13:59   UKIP Couple and Fostering. - No FM2R

But didn't I read somewhere that UKIPs desire to restrict immigration comes from cultural preservation reasons, not from a financial burden perspective. So presumably that would apply to individuals of other cultures irrespective of their financial worth? Reply to this message | Report message

Thu 29 Nov 12 14:01   UKIP Couple and Fostering. - Lygonos

>>The welfare state issues are mostly caused by lazy Brits I fear this too is wrong - there is too great a burden caused by pensions, and pensioners' healthcare costs that requires a larger working-age population paying in. Anyone here who seriously believes their NI payments while working will cover their cost to the taxpayer in their dotage is likely woefully deluded. Pensions and NHS costs massively outweigh unemployment benefits. Reply to this message | Report message

Thu 29 Nov 12 13:59   UKIP Couple and Fostering. - Bromptonaut

>> Yes, you do. Because as a foster parent you're acting as an agent for the state. The court or the LA has trusted you to be Mum and Dad to somebody else's kids. And, paraphrasing Hull's most famous poet your Mum and Dad can **** you up. Authorities have to follow a precautionary principle and avoid forseeable risk. That might mean a risk with a lowish probability but a severe consequence including children in their formative years subjected, even inadvertently, to anti immigrant views/propaganda. I may be wrong but I infer from your post that you believe immigrants are a drain on our Social Services and that they come here for a life of Reilly at expense of the DWP. I suspect that, although the press love stories about immigrants in big houses ithat's not typical. Most want to work and pay their taxes. Sometimes, when seeking Asylum for example, state actually stops them working. It's certainly not the case with Poles, most of whom are doing the jobs the lazy indigenes wont do. I welcome them, their taxes might pay my pension. Last edited by: VxFan on Sun 16 Dec 12 at 18:13 Reply to this message | Report message

Thu 29 Nov 12 14:11   UKIP Couple and Fostering. - Zero

>> >> Surely I dont need to. You dont need to be told that people holding >> anti >> >> immigration views are not the best place for immigrant children to be fostered into. >> Please >> >> dont tell me I have to explain that to you >> >> Yes, you do. If you cant see it, nothing I can say will give you the moment of Clarity And for that very reason the Adoption board would be right to reject you for that role. >> I also think i'd make a good foster parent and my wife certainly would, inc >> to immigrant children. Reply to this message | Report message

Mon 26 Nov 12 22:02   UKIP Couple and Fostering. - Stuu

>>I don't think it is in the childrens best case to be put with foster parents who hold anti immigration views << They dont, the UKIP policy is anti uncontrolled mass immigration, not anti-immigration. They are against state imposed multiculturalism which is a political project, much like the difference between hating the EU or hating Europeans - hating a political project for failure is not the same as hating the people who that project is imposed on. Multiculturalism is not a question of whether it happens as all cultures develop over time, but whether it is forced by the state or happens over time like it has for hundreds of years in an incremental way. In 2011 David Cameron himself said that state multiculturalism has failed, so UKIP's view is hardly extreme. Reply to this message | Report message

Mon 26 Nov 12 22:04   UKIP Couple and Fostering. - Bromptonaut

FoR, What do you understand by the term multiculturalism? Reply to this message | Report message

Mon 26 Nov 12 22:18   UKIP Couple and Fostering. - Stuu

>>What do you understand by the term multiculturalism? << In terms of politics, politically forced cultural direction based on the whims of those in power at the time. There are a whole host of definitions because despite much effort, nobody really has ever nailed down what it is. You may have your idea, I may have mine, but there may be a hundred other versions too. It doesnt really mean anything in particular hence people use it like a religion and modify it to suit their agenda at the time. Reply to this message | Report message

Mon 26 Nov 12 22:20   UKIP Couple and Fostering. - Zero

>> They dont, the UKIP policy is anti uncontrolled mass immigration, not anti-immigration. You and I don't know what the foster carers views are. They are now hidden by this UKIP smoke screen. Thats the problem. Reply to this message | Report message

Mon 26 Nov 12 22:34   UKIP Couple and Fostering. - -

Ooh, no smoke without fire eh? Reply to this message | Report message       2

Mon 26 Nov 12 22:36   UKIP Couple and Fostering. - Stuu

>>You and I don't know what the foster carers views are. They are now hidden by this UKIP smoke screen. Thats the problem. << True, but Thacker said it was a problem with UKIP immigration policy. She made a point of making it about UKIP rather than personally held views by the couple. Reply to this message | Report message       1

Mon 26 Nov 12 22:49   UKIP Couple and Fostering. - Roger.

UKIP are looking for, in the long term, immigration policies in line with Australia, New Zealand etc. This means that immigrants will be welcomed if they meet certain criteria: mostly needed skills, a certified job offer from a reputable employer and so. Here is the policy in more detail. www.ukip.org/content/ukip-policies/1499-immigration-and-asylum-ukip-policy Reply to this message | Report message       2

Mon 26 Nov 12 22:56   UKIP Couple and Fostering. - R.P.

There would have been some sort of strategy meeting/case conference before this was done, I can't believe that there would not have been a press strategy as well. All that forethought makes it worse in a way. Reply to this message | Report message

Mon 26 Nov 12 23:01   UKIP Couple and Fostering. - No FM2R

UKIP's policies are not particularly relevant. What matters is the couple's views and their interpretation of those policies. But, as Zero says, we'll never know. Reply to this message | Report message

Mon 26 Nov 12 23:37   UKIP Couple and Fostering. - Dutchie

As a immigrant to the UK I came to this country because I wanted to.My wife was born in the UK and I liked it here.Not so many rules and regulations as in mainland Europe.It is never easy for anybody from abroad settling somewhere else.Language different culture etc.Some people never do.One of my neighbours in our street a bit similair to Coronation street when i first arrived,came from Amsterdam. He has a British wife and two children and had been living here for a while.He couldn't settle was homesick and went back to Amsterdam with his family.I still sometimes see his children who speak the two languages perfect.My neighbour could go back to Holland it is a rich nation but some of these immigrants are from very poor countries or controlling regimes they have no choice.We just have to learn to live together no matter what race or colour.My granddaughter is half Polish/British Dutch and Irish blood and she eats like a horse. Reply to this message | Report message

Tue 27 Nov 12 00:07   UKIP Couple and Fostering. - No FM2R

I have an issue with immigration policies for two reasons; I'm a Brit and I have lived and worked all over the world. I have never had a visa issue, but then my work is specialised enough that most immigration offices have no issue. However, I've always participated in local life, wherever I have been. Secondly, one of my daughters and my wife of many years are not British, but frequently wish to live in the UK. How can I therefore object to anybody wanting their family with them? I am many things, but not a hypocrite. Consequently I can't bring myself to object to people who have never objected to me. And whilst I have lived and worked in Europe, Australia, US etc, by far the majority of my work has been in developing countries. So, I would have NO immigration restrictions. Anybody who wants to can live in the UK, as far as I am concerned. If they want to bring 10,000 cousins, that is equally no issue. However, here is a list of things which are issues; You will abide by our standards and customs. When I live in a Muslim country I am expected to abide by theirs; I may not drink, my wife may not drive, etc. etc. When I am in any country, I am expected to abide by their moors and customs. I am happy to do this. And that's how it should be. So, if you would like to live and work in the UK, then you are most welcome. But, there is a list of customs, behaviours and standards which we abide by ourselves, and we expect you to abide by. If you don't like it, then you should feel free to go elsewhere. (as an aside, our expectations of our own countrymen are far lower than they should be in this area). UK Health Service and other benefits are crippling expensive for our country. As a Brit, our society and ancestors have paid and continue to pay for this to support us. You may not share in either our free health service or our benefit system until you have passed specified time and/or contribution levels. We are a caring nation, so if you are a genuine hardship case, please do apply for help, we'll almost certainly give it. If you commit a crime, and I truly don't care what crime it is, if you steal a Mars Bar, you're out. We'll let you off RTA offences, because we can't drive either, but anything else and you're out. You're human rights are our duty when you've been passed by immigration. Until that time we're thinking about it. We'll support them wherever we can, but if we don't let you in, then we obviously had a valid reason, and then its your problem, not ours. And we don't let you in while we consider your appeal, you wait outside until we've decided. I don't care what religion you are, what colour you are, what society you come from, indeed I don't care how many of you there are, you are still welcome. But I do care about my country and you will integrate with it by our standards and then contribute to it, as we do. So, in summary, you're welcome here. Everybody is welcome here. Pretty much without restriction. But you need to integrate with OUR country, and you need to integrate with OUR laws and standards, and you need to feel totally free to go somewhere else if any of this is unacceptable. Last edited by: VxFan on Sun 16 Dec 12 at 18:14 Reply to this message | Report message

Tue 27 Nov 12 16:14   UKIP Couple and Fostering. - Dog

>>My granddaughter is half Polish/British Dutch and Irish blood and she eats like a horse<< Hay? Reply to this message | Report message       1

Mon 26 Nov 12 23:01   UKIP Couple and Fostering. - Zero

>> True, but Thacker said it was a problem with UKIP immigration policy. She made a >> point of making it about UKIP rather than personally held views by the couple. And thats why she should be shot. It was a stupid thing to say on many levels,. Reply to this message | Report message

Mon 26 Nov 12 23:20   UKIP Couple and Fostering. - Manatee

It was a train crash interview with Naughtie. embarrassing to listen to. She was probably trying to depersonalise it and shot herself in the other foot instead. Reply to this message | Report message

Mon 26 Nov 12 23:42   UKIP Couple and Fostering. - Stuu

>>And thats why she should be shot. It was a stupid thing to say on many levels << I dont think she made it up, I think it was behind the decision because there was no other reason to say it. Her only mistake was the blind faith that nobody outside her clique would see anything wrong with it. The only stupidity on her part was exposing what she was overseeing to scrutiny that in hindsight she would have rather avoided. I watched the interview and it was like that moment when Nick Griffin said he thought two men kissing in public was creepy and it hadnt occured to him that actually, he was the creepy one. Reply to this message | Report message       1

Tue 27 Nov 12 11:37   UKIP Couple and Fostering. - madf

"The three children removed from their foster parents because the couple were UKIP members have been separated from one another, it emerged last night. The boy has been sent to live with one family, while his two sisters – a baby and an older girl – have gone to another home. tinyurl.com/c7mcwog Reply to this message | Report message       1

Tue 27 Nov 12 11:48   UKIP Couple and Fostering. - -

>> The boy has been sent to live with one family, while his two sisters – >> a baby and an older girl – have gone to another home. You couldn't make it up, poor little blighters, footballs to be kicked around by people without a grain of common sense to their name. Reply to this message | Report message       2

Tue 27 Nov 12 11:50   UKIP Couple and Fostering. - Stuu

Poor kids, you have to feel for them with these nazis pushing them from place to place and now splitting them up too. I would love to know why separating them is in their best interests. Reply to this message | Report message       1

Tue 27 Nov 12 14:27   UKIP Couple and Fostering. - Armel Coussine

If the UKIP-supporting couple had been assessed as reliable foster parents, which obviously they had, and if their record to date was good, as presumably it was, then why does anyone imagine that their 'anti-immigration views' would be oppressive or harmful to the children? They were siblings, and they have now been split up. The ideological faffing that caused this is not just despicable, it's criminal. Those responsible should be sacked and their pensions cut to the bone. Carphounds. Reply to this message | Report message       1

Tue 27 Nov 12 15:01   UKIP Couple and Fostering. - madf

>> If the UKIP-supporting couple had been assessed as reliable foster parents, which obviously they had, >> and if their record to date was good, as presumably it was, then why does >> anyone imagine that their 'anti-immigration views' would be oppressive or harmful to the children? >> >> They were siblings, and they have now been split up. The ideological faffing that caused >> this is not just despicable, it's criminal. Those responsible should be sacked and their pensions >> cut to the bone. Carphounds. >> No they followed procedure so not to blame..:-) (Procedures say non Labour Supporters are evil) Reply to this message | Report message

Tue 27 Nov 12 15:06   UKIP Couple and Fostering. - Bromptonaut

AC, The decision was case specific and probably far more complex then the accounts in the public domain suggest. Are people expressing, perhaps publicly, agreement with a party appealing to the "send 'em home" tendency the right folks to be fostering immigrant children? It's at least a legitimate question even if it turns out they got the answer wrong. Frankly, if the wind was blowing the other way, a story about such an arrangement would be just as likley to get the Mail frothing as the current state of affairs. Reply to this message | Report message

Tue 27 Nov 12 15:19   UKIP Couple and Fostering. - Stuu

>>the "send 'em home" tendency << So what do you say to Australians then? If Australia doesnt change to an open border policy will you be accusing them of being racist too? Reply to this message | Report message

Tue 27 Nov 12 15:34   UKIP Couple and Fostering. - Manatee

You don't need to be a UKIP supporter to know that social policies more generous than are to be found elsewhere (including in Europe), and an open border policy (which applies to Europe while we are in the EU), are incompatible and together unsustainable. Racism isn't a particularly useful term in this context. Reply to this message | Report message       1

Tue 27 Nov 12 15:46   UKIP Couple and Fostering. - madf

>> You don't need to be a UKIP supporter to know that social policies more generous >> than are to be found elsewhere (including in Europe), and an open border policy (which >> applies to Europe while we are in the EU), are incompatible and together unsustainable. >> >> Racism isn't a particularly useful term in this context. >> +1 It's patently untenable in the long term . No doubt Beveridge is turning in his grave.. Reply to this message | Report message

Tue 27 Nov 12 15:34   UKIP Couple and Fostering. - Zero

Its no good you, or UKIP quoting australia, everyone who is not an abbo is an immigrant. Its the most multicultural place on earth. Roger would have a fit. Plus the fact anyone in europe has the right to live anywhere else in europe. Immigration has nothing to do with it. Last edited by: Zero on Tue 27 Nov 12 at 15:35 Reply to this message | Report message

Tue 27 Nov 12 15:43   UKIP Couple and Fostering. - Manatee

>> Its no good you, or UKIP quoting australia, everyone who is not an abbo is >> an immigrant. Its the most multicultural place on earth. Roger would have a fit. I suppose that's the point. They only want people who are going to contribute to society, not just avail themselves of the benefits. Nothing to do with multiculturalism per se. Just to be clear, they haven't had the White Australia Policy for quite some time! Reply to this message | Report message       1

Tue 27 Nov 12 15:36   UKIP Couple and Fostering. - Bromptonaut

>> >>the "send 'em home" tendency << >> >> So what do you say to Australians then? If Australia doesnt change to an open >> border policy will you be accusing them of being racist too? My point about UKIP and "send 'em home" is that it's 2010 policy was to treat Eastern Europeans arriving since open borders in same as other immigrants unless they have leave to remain. It's certainly possible to read that as requiring those already here to either jump through hoops for a visa or be deported. Based on it's attitude to asylum seekers I'd say yes, Australia has a racist migrant policy. The 'White Australia' policy is not all that long ago either. Come to think of it most migrant policies are at least a bit racist. If you appraoch a London agency for temporary lawyer staff they're largely white Australians who can get a two year working visa without great inconvenience. Or else rely on their dual nationality via an English parent. Reply to this message | Report message

Tue 27 Nov 12 16:02   UKIP Couple and Fostering. - Stuu

>>was to treat Eastern Europeans arriving since open borders in same as other immigrants unless they have leave to remain. << To treat people equally yes. Do you dislike equality? >>Australia has a racist migrant policy.<< Are they being racist to my white, blond sister who despite being married to an aussie citizen and having two aussie born children is after 3 years in the country not entitled to benefits nor allowed to work? She doesnt think so, she thinks it is their right and she looks forward to being granted the privilege of citzenship. It is a tough process and everytime she leaves the country she knows there is a possibility she may not be allowed back in, her right to enter is not automatic. The understanding my sister has about the Australian immigration policy is that it is to manage both the jobs market and service provision, which seems entirely reasonable to her, she certainly doesnt resent it. It is strict, but that doesnt make it racist, it just happens that proximity to Asia means a large proportion of applicants are of asian origin. Reply to this message | Report message       3

Tue 27 Nov 12 16:10   UKIP Couple and Fostering. - Manatee

You're not wrong Stu. Years ago a pal of mine (white British) applied when he had an Australian girlfriend. They turned him down as his wasn't on the list of required occupations (funny list actually, not what you'd think - IIRC it had hairdressers on it). He got in subsequently having married her here, just before she got chucked out when her visa expired. Reply to this message | Report message

Tue 27 Nov 12 16:26   UKIP Couple and Fostering. - Armel Coussine

If these people were racist would they have been allowed to foster any children? One hopes and assumes not. The children in the case were European so racism as such doesn't apply. Is it possible that they might have discussed, in pointed, personal terms designed to be understood by children, the view that foreigners like them shouldn't be let in here and are harming the country? One has to concede that it is possible. But it seems so damn unlikely that even raising the possibility amounts to silly faffing. Adults talk about all sorts of things in front of children. Do their more outlandish remarks - because everyone makes them sometimes - strike home and stick in the children's minds, 'harming' or 'distressing' them? No they damn well don't. In one ear and out the other, if that. If this case turns out to have complexities that prove me wrong I will be very surprised (if I ever find out that is). Reply to this message | Report message

Tue 27 Nov 12 17:08   UKIP Couple and Fostering. - Westpig

>> Based on it's attitude to asylum seekers I'd say yes, Australia has a racist migrant >> policy. I would like my country to do the same as Oz. Does that mean that if I were to offer to foster children (inc immigrant children), then I shouldn't be allowed to? Reply to this message | Report message       1

Tue 27 Nov 12 19:27   UKIP Couple and Fostering. - Bromptonaut

>> I would like my country to do the same as Oz. >> >> Does that mean that if I were to offer to foster children (inc immigrant children), >> then I shouldn't be allowed to? >> If those are your private views then no. On the other hand suppose you were an active campaigning member of a political organisation. That organisation was promoting strong immigration control with specific policies about Eastern European residents and against accepting other cultures in our society. In those circs a court or local authority might reflect, particularly before letting you foster kids from Eastern Europe. Reply to this message | Report message

Tue 27 Nov 12 19:30   UKIP Couple and Fostering. - Stuu

>>That organisation was promoting strong immigration control with specific policies about Eastern European residents and against accepting other cultures in our society.<< Irrelevant in this case since neither is true. Reply to this message | Report message

Tue 27 Nov 12 19:37   UKIP Couple and Fostering. - Bromptonaut

>> Irrelevant in this case since neither is true. Neither is true of UKIP?? It's manifesto in 2010 c omitted to Ensure all EU citizens who came to Britain after 1 January 2004 are treated in the same way as citizens from other countries (unless entitled to ‘Permanent Leave to Remain’) I read that as make the jump through visa hoops to stay or risk deportation. Do you have an alternative translation? It also promised to end multiculturalism. Reply to this message | Report message

Tue 27 Nov 12 19:56   UKIP Couple and Fostering. - Stuu

>>Neither is true of UKIP?? << No. >>Ensure all EU citizens << Im not sure how good at geography you are, terrible by all accounts, but Portugal is to our south, not to mention Spain, big place, cant miss it. The EU does not consist only of states in Eastern Europe, therefore you statement is factually incorrect and you well know it. There is no mention of eastern europeans at all. Dont work at Rotherham do you? :-) >>It also promised to end multiculturalism << ' End the active promotion of the doctrine of multiculturalism by local and national government and all publicly funded bodies '. That does not say END multiculturalism. This may come as a shock, but UKIP believes in a vastly smaller state and does not consider it the role of the state to engineer culture to its own designs. Multiculturalism as a broad idea is a good one, but politics tends to corrupt it for its own gains rather than the greater good. Reply to this message | Report message       2

Tue 27 Nov 12 20:23   UKIP Couple and Fostering. - Bromptonaut

Stu, I can label the EU from Cadiz to Warsaw as fast as the next guy. The Baltic states might confuse me though. Portuguese migrants might raise hackles in some parts of UK but round here and in most other places it's Poles and Lithuanians etc. I'm pretty sure I've seen you complaining about them impacting on the car cleaning/valeting. And it;s the audience who think migrants have taken their jobs that UKIP is dog whistling to. Reply to this message | Report message       1

Tue 27 Nov 12 20:46   UKIP Couple and Fostering. - Stuu

>>I'm pretty sure I've seen you complaining about them impacting on the car cleaning/valeting. << Why wouldnt I? Some of them are quite open about not paying UK taxes and according to my chemicals supplier, they consider it standard practice to buy in bulk for cash minus VAT. So yeah, Im complaining, what of it? Nobody dare tackle the problem because someone just like you will pop up crying racism. Reply to this message | Report message

Tue 27 Nov 12 20:56   UKIP Couple and Fostering. - Bromptonaut

>> So yeah, Im complaining, what of it? Nobody dare tackle the problem because someone just >> like you will pop up crying racism. >> 'Someone like you'. Oh dear. The libertarians on here will consider them fair competition. I'm actually seriously concerned at the exploitation of migrants by employers. And who's letting them buy in bulk for cash minus VAT.? Reply to this message | Report message

Tue 27 Nov 12 23:12   UKIP Couple and Fostering. - Stuu

>>'Someone like you'. Oh dear. I'm actually seriously concerned at the exploitation of migrants by employers. << By that I mean people who cry racism at every possible opportunity, not when they know it exists in a given case, but when they feel they can present the facts in such a way that they can make the claim. You embellished the UKIP policy in a subtle way to try and prove your point, your only mistake is that the actual policy is available to the public. You and Joyce Thacker have much in common in that way, but I know those attitudes run deep in a person, so lets agree to disagree on this one. >>And who's letting them buy in bulk for cash minus VAT.? << Im not sure but my supplier said he refused and they said why, everyone else does it and walked out. I expect it is a whole network like many of these things are, the rot always runs deep. Reply to this message | Report message

Wed 28 Nov 12 10:06   UKIP Couple and Fostering. - Bromptonaut

Stu, The difference between what you mention and my abbreviation on the multiculti point is a pretty fine one. And I'm still not understanding why Poles etc might not feel threatened by the policy to EU arrivals outlined in UKIP's 2010 manifesto. Happy to differ though. Reply to this message | Report message

Wed 28 Nov 12 10:50   UKIP Couple and Fostering. - Stuu

>>Happy to differ though << I suspect that is the best option. Fancy a chat about Citroens? :-) Reply to this message | Report message

Tue 27 Nov 12 20:00   UKIP Couple and Fostering. - Manatee

Multiculturalism isn't the antonym of racism. You can reject both. There are two mentions of multiwhatsit in the manifesto - End the active promotion of the doctrine of multiculturalism by local and national government and all publicly funded bodies and UKIP believes in civic nationalism, which is open and inclusive to anyone who wishes to identify with Britain, regardless of ethnic or religious background. We reject the “blood and soil” ethnic nationalism of extremist parties. UKIP opposes multiculturalism and political correctness, and promotes uniculturalism - aiming to create a single British culture embracing all races and religions. UKIP will: · Recognise the numerous threats to British identity and culture · Restore British values, scrap quotas and political correctness and return to meritocratic principles · Create a ‘British Register’ of important UK companies, products and brands and amend the UK Takeover Code to safeguard these using set criteria, parliamentary approvals and/or conditions where necessary · Safeguard British weights and measures (the pint, the mile, etc) which have been undermined by the EU. UKIP will also provide proper support to the Royal Mail and the Post Office as key British institutions · Require UK schools to teach Britain’s contribution to the world, including British inventions and Britain’s role in fighting slavery and Nazism. All cultures, languages and traditions from around the British Isles will be celebrated. The manifesto also refers to the policy on asylum and immigration - www.ukip.org/content/ukip-policies/1499-immigration-and-asylum-ukip-policy There's quite a bit of populist stuff in there and some of it a bit aspirational, even naive, but what struck me was that it is actually fairly comprehensible, unlike the motherhoods and circumlocution peddled by the 3 main parties. That might just strike the right note with some people if UKIP gets the exposure. I'm sure they also hold appeal for closet racists, but that doesn't make all their adherents racist. Reply to this message | Report message       2

Wed 28 Nov 12 07:35   UKIP Couple and Fostering. - WillDeBeest

... · Restore British values... · Create a ‘British Register’ of important UK companies, products and brands ... · Safeguard British weights and measures (the pint, the mile, etc) ... · Require UK schools to teach Britain’s contribution to the world... Thanks for posting that, Manatee. John Harris's article in yesterday's Guardian had me concerned that instead of being propped up and ineffectually moderated by Clegg's Lib Dems, the Tories might form an electoral pact, and a possible future coalition, with Farage's grinning mob. But that is hugely reassuring: I can't see Cameron - or even Gove - hooking up with anyone who can put out that sort of delusional, misty-eyed a***dribble. Churchill posters and Union Flag teatowels all round. I must find a copy to show to my German colleagues; they'll wet themselves laughing. Slogan: vote UKIP, because the real world is overrated. Reply to this message | Report message

Wed 28 Nov 12 08:25   UKIP Couple and Fostering. - CGNorwich

"All cultures, languages and traditions from around the British Isles will be celebrated." It's the obligatory morris dancing that worries me. Reply to this message | Report message

Wed 28 Nov 12 08:37   UKIP Couple and Fostering. - Zero

>> "All cultures, languages >> and traditions from around the British Isles will >> be celebrated." >> >> It's the obligatory morris dancing that worries me. Its ok, all funny foreign beers, like lager, will be banned and real ale drinking will be mandatory. Reply to this message | Report message

Wed 28 Nov 12 10:53   UKIP Couple and Fostering. - Stuu

>>It's the obligatory morris dancing that worries me << They made us to 'country' dancing when I was at primary school, which rates as possibly the most camp experience in my life. Morris dancing would have been far more entertaining! Then again, I expect, looking back, there was some cultural point to country dancing, only they never explained it. To me it was essentially dressing up like the Amish and dancing round a field. Reply to this message | Report message

Wed 28 Nov 12 11:05   UKIP Couple and Fostering. - Crankcase

>> Then again, I expect, looking back, there was some cultural point to country dancing Clearly you've never read the Chalet School then, as there is plenty of country dancing in those novels. If Jo hadn't been able to do the chasse then she'd never have rescued the Princess of Belsornia from that blasted cave, I can tell you, and then where would we be? Just saying. Reply to this message | Report message

Wed 28 Nov 12 11:28   UKIP Couple and Fostering. - madf

They made us to 'country' dancing when I was at primary school, which rates as possibly the most camp experience in my life. Morris dancing would have been far more entertaining! I was forced to do Scottish Country dancing as a primary school pupil dressed in a skirt kilt. Last edited by: madf on Wed 28 Nov 12 at 11:28 Reply to this message | Report message

Wed 28 Nov 12 11:31   UKIP Couple and Fostering. - Stuu

>>I was forced to do Scottish Country dancing as a primary school pupil dressed in a skirt kilt. << OK, I concede defeat there :-) Reply to this message | Report message

Wed 28 Nov 12 12:46   UKIP Couple and Fostering. - WillDeBeest

Have no fear, chaps: morris dancing is (well, may be) Moorish in origin - i.e. foreign - and as such has no place in the cultural uniformity of the UKIP Fatherland. It's woad and henges for everyone. Reply to this message | Report message

Wed 28 Nov 12 13:00   UKIP Couple and Fostering. - Stuu

>>i.e. foreign - and as such has no place in the cultural uniformity of the UKIP Fatherland << Ah but you see dear chap, British culture is almost all foreign at some point. We adopt bits as we go along like Christmas trees, an odd thing really. Each new generation is born and raised into a different world to their parents and with each generation, the cultural norms shift. Reply to this message | Report message

Wed 28 Nov 12 14:49   UKIP Couple and Fostering. - WillDeBeest

Ah but you see dear chap, British culture is almost all foreign at some point. Precisely, Stu, we've been importing customs and culture for ever. But UKIP seems to have decided that it's time to stop all that and to freeze our culture at about (to be generous) 1990 - with chicken tikka masala but without a Polski Sklep on every high street. As for 'no sense of irony or humour', GB, do us (and yourself) a favour! That's the favourite jibe of the office sexual harasser and the football terrace monkey chanter, and I didn't have you in either category. And Roger, our very own member of the grinning mob (although I can't, in fairness, imagine him grinning quite like his leader): who here lacks an appreciation of British history? There's more to it than Spitfires and pink bits on the map, you know. Britain's greatest contributions have come when it's been an active participant in the world community but UKIP would rather pull up the drawbridge and stay home with its pints and its red buses. Simplistic nonsense for the easily led and it would make us a very poor, very lonely laughing stock. Reply to this message | Report message       3

Wed 28 Nov 12 14:50   UKIP Couple and Fostering. - Bromptonaut

WdB +1 Reply to this message | Report message       1

Wed 28 Nov 12 14:56   UKIP Couple and Fostering. - Alanovich

Hooray for WDB. Well said that man. Reply to this message | Report message       2

Wed 28 Nov 12 19:49   UKIP Couple and Fostering. - CGNorwich

Hooray for WDB. Well said that man. Seconded. It's having what I like to think is quite a good knowledge of British history that makes me find UKIP so amusing. Reply to this message | Report message

Wed 28 Nov 12 15:28   UKIP Couple and Fostering. - Stuu

>>But UKIP seems to have decided that it's time to stop all that and to freeze our culture at about (to be generous) 1990 << No they havent. They want to stop state engineered culture. Very different from stopping cultural development. UKIP are very small state, which is seen across many different policies, the question being what the role of the state is which in UKIP terms means letting culture develop on its own terms, not those of a small clique in power through legislation to their own designs. You may want culture engineered by the state and thats fine, but not everyone does. The policy that all cultures, languages and traditions from around the British Isles will be celebrated is hardly exclusive since our national dish is apparently an Indian takeaway. The idea that all cultures rather than those favoured by the state will be celebrated seems about as inclusive as you can get. Learning about the huge variety of culture in this country is a manifesto to include everyone and if you were teaching about British culture as it stands today, that would include the more recent influences which came from the Commonwealth and Europe which have become so much a part of British culture today. The UKIP policy isnt British culture minus this or that, it is what it is and you can embellish the policies as much as you like with your own additional views, but they are only your views, not UKIP policy as much as you would like it to be. Reply to this message | Report message       1

Wed 28 Nov 12 17:11   UKIP Couple and Fostering. - WillDeBeest

But Stu, this comes straight from what Manatee posted earlier: UKIP opposes multiculturalism and political correctness, and promotes uniculturalism - aiming to create a single British culture embracing all races and religions. So you say: You may want culture engineered by the state and that's fine, but not everyone does. But that is exactly what UKIP is proposing: to create - not foster or stimulate but actively impose - a single British culture for us all. Now I'm going to surprise you - maybe. I think 'multicultural' is a daft word and a dafter idea. Those who choose to make their homes here ought to adopt some of our ways to fit in, but that means speaking the language, paying their taxes, sending their children to the same local schools, and not expecting exemption from civic duties on cultural or religious grounds. But that mustn't be at the expense of diversity. Culture is pretty low-level stuff: we don't all go to the opera or the football, and we never have. My office would be a much drabber place if my Asian-British colleagues didn't include the rest of us in their festival celebrations, just as we share our Christmas cake with them. If we do it properly we can have the best of all worlds, and nobody need feel excluded. Reply to this message | Report message

Wed 28 Nov 12 17:33   UKIP Couple and Fostering. - Armel Coussine

>> If we do it properly we can have the best of all worlds, and nobody need feel excluded. Actually on a national level (but there must be local exceptions) we are doing it properly and no one does need to feel excluded. There are problems though. The most serious are caused by a minority of incomers whose belief in their own moral or religious superiority is so absolute that they try to exclude us, partly by falsely alleging that something perfectly normal here makes them feel excluded, partly by maintaining a miserably blinkered outlook; and by those in positions of authority or influence who are so terrified of their own imagined secret racism or xenophobia that they support the first group, annoying everyone else. There's no fundamental problem with most of our society's mainstream attitudes. Problems stem from mischief by nasty, usually ignorant people and their useful idiots. In a nation of 60 million examples of these things, and other horrors, naturally abound. People blame the media for exaggerating their numbers, but I am afraid another problem is the way most people read the media: childishly, with the last bit of shock-horror swamping everything else. Reply to this message | Report message       2

Wed 28 Nov 12 18:08   UKIP Couple and Fostering. - Stuu

>>But that is exactly what UKIP is proposing: to create - not foster or stimulate but actively impose - a single British culture for us all. << Yes and no. You should do some reading on uniculturalism first. The idea is to be inclusive of everyone, to bring an end to divisions between groups and communities by giving a common cause under which to live, but in UKIP terms it is a very broad basis - democracy, fair play and freedom. If you dont believe in any of those three things, it is quite possible you dont belong in Britain. These are fundamental things, they are very general which is kind of the point because it allows you to include just about everyone. Libertarians tend to believe in letting people do their own thing so long as they dont harm others, this is an extension of that by saying OK, we ask you to aspire to these tenets, after which, you be who you want to be. It is not fundamental Libertarianism which is frankly a bit bonkers, it is a hybrid based on some of the values that underpin modern Britain anyway. Its a sort of light touch guidance that libertarians favour. Reply to this message | Report message

Wed 28 Nov 12 16:35   UKIP Couple and Fostering. - Manatee

Always keep a hold of nurse, for fear of finding something worse. Familiarity is a great comfort, but who can really admire the two main parties? UKIP needs to grow up a bit. It has a challenge in getting breadth of appeal and critical mass, hence the claptrap. Nevertheless it might be on to something. There's a really fundamental question to be faced about what the EU is for and where it's going. It makes all the other elephants in the room look like mice by comparison. You can't have a common currency without fiscal union. You can't have fiscal union without political union. The Euro states, apart from Germany which holds the reins, have already lost their independence - utterly. Britain will eventually have to join the Euro or leave the Union, eventually - which means either giving up, or retaining, independence. It might not be the most urgent question on the agenda, but it is almost certainly the most important. If UKIP gathers enough votes to force that issue one way or the other, it will have served its purpose. Labour and the Tories just won't deal with it. Reply to this message | Report message

Wed 28 Nov 12 16:51   UKIP Couple and Fostering. - No FM2R

>>You can't have a common currency without.............. UK Population - 60 million ish Over 18 - 50 million ish Likely to vote - 38 million ish Capable of understanding the issues related to the EU, our membership of it, impact on our other plans or issues... Probably about 10 and 8 of them are here.. When do we expect the Lab, Con or anybody else to care or understand something better than the electorate does? For goodness sakes, they might have been rude to a policeman or fiddled their expenses. They might have had an affair or lied on their tax forms. They might have smoked a joint at college or joined a posh club. Much more important. The politicians know what is important to the electorate, and they focus on those issues. Reply to this message | Report message

Wed 28 Nov 12 15:03   UKIP Couple and Fostering. - madf

>> >>I was forced to do Scottish Country dancing as a primary school pupil dressed in >> a skirt kilt. << >> >> OK, I concede defeat there :-) >> :-) All concessions welcome! :-) Reply to this message | Report message

Wed 28 Nov 12 12:53   UKIP Couple and Fostering. - Roger.

Ah, yes, the Germans ARE taught their history, though - as well they might be! It seems odd that a presumably British person has no feeling or appreciation for the history of our own country, which bears pretty heavily on who we are today. It is not odd, however, that people whose political views are of the leftish persuasion (Rotherham Council Education & Child Welfare Directors for example?) feeling themselves and their Statist mind-set threatened, resort to crude insults -"misty-eyed a***dribble" - "Farage's grinning mob" and politically motivated manipulating of folk who do not share their views. In a way, I guess this shows that it is being realised that the unremitting flow of PC and institutionally promulgated " we know best what is good for you and will brook no dissent" , nonsense is, perhaps, being stemmed. UKIP gained 750 new members over last weekend! Reply to this message | Report message

Wed 28 Nov 12 13:33   UKIP Couple and Fostering. - -

>> UKIP gained 750 new members over last weekend! Thats quite an astonishing number of new members to a political party. There's been some interesting contributions in this thread, mostly constructive and many tongue in cheek whilst putting the point over, some however have been tinged with political dogma which have detracted from the often valid points being made....Rogers referral to ''Farage's grinning mob'' being typical. The left seem to have no sense of irony or humour, any view not of their current view, which may have been different yesterday and might be diferent again tomorrow, must be so wrong as to not be allowed to be spoken...such as the subject of the matter. This whole racist finger pointing thing has lost its stigma and the left don't like it, yes it still has the potential to wreck a persons life if their career is in a media or civil service area but outside that many people have seen it for what it was. I wonder how many people joined or voted for UKIP realised there was no other way to get their voice or vote heard when the three parts of the one party state became one. Those who do not want to be forced to become ever deeper a part of a federal Europe by appointed apparatchiks, who want a sensible approach to immigration and a whole radical rethink about where our country is going...down the toilet as far as i can see ever faster on its current crooked borrowed till bankrupt course. This racist finger pointing won't wash any more, 'wolf' has been cried too many times and the left (and Cameron) will have to find another stigma for UKIP members, i'll be voting UKIP for as long as they stand for what i stand for, no other party does. Last edited by: gordonbennet on Wed 28 Nov 12 at 13:36 Reply to this message | Report message       3

Wed 28 Nov 12 14:15   UKIP Couple and Fostering. - Stuu

Personally, I think the more mainstream UKIP is seen as, the more mainstream candidates will become as the pool from which they are chosen will widen. At the moment it does still suffer from occasionally having people who go 'off the reservation' like McKenzie, who is something of a liability, but then all political parties have them I suppose. There is still a transitional period going on with UKIP from pressure group to political party and for the time being I will accept mistakes, but I hope that in the future we promote people like Michael Heaver and not McKenzie who doesnt know when to keep his personal opinions to himself - his comments about gay adoption were outrageous and I was furious that he came out with such rubbish. I understand his background plays a part in how he feels, but he is too off message for me. I could not vote for him and I suspect once the by-election is done, we will not hear from him again, with any hope. Reply to this message | Report message

Wed 28 Nov 12 14:49   UKIP Couple and Fostering. - Bromptonaut

Moving from being a single issue pressure group to a rounded political party capable of a place in government is a big ask. Farage gives the impression of being a competent politician albeit one I would never vote for. Winston McKenzie's not their only liability. Kilroy Silk was another and UKIP MEP's have not generally covered themselves in glory. While I respect GB's view of one party/three cheeks I'm afraid racism is out there all the time. Winston proves conclusively that the same goes for Homophobia and probably other forms of sexual discrimination. The price of freedom is eternal vigilance. Reply to this message | Report message

Wed 28 Nov 12 15:42   UKIP Couple and Fostering. - Stuu

>>Kilroy Silk was another and UKIP MEP's have not generally covered themselves in glory. << True, but before my time and he isnt a member of the party anymore, not for some years now. UKIP is pretty much built around Farage and until recently, it didnt matter if there were a few cranks in the party, but now they are entering national politics, it is certainly important that more scrutiny of candidates is required. Winston is a funny case in that he has been Labour, Lib Dem plus several minor parties before he settled at UKIP 3 years ago, but I suspect he will be off again pretty soon. I think the only reason he isnt in the BNP is the rather obvious one, but in many other respects he is more on their page than UKIP. I just hope he looses, I dont want him anywhere near UKIP. Reply to this message | Report message

Thu 29 Nov 12 09:55   UKIP Couple and Fostering. - Cliff Pope

>> >> The price of freedom is eternal vigilance. >> >> I think the price of freedom is allowing people to express views different from one's own, and even to allow them to bring up children. Reply to this message | Report message       1

Thu 29 Nov 12 10:11   UKIP Couple and Fostering. - Bromptonaut

>> I think the price of freedom is allowing people to express views different from one's >> own, and even to allow them to bring up children. No argument with that. Bringing up your own children is one thing. Briniging up someone else's as an agent of the state is a bit different. Reply to this message | Report message

Wed 28 Nov 12 15:28   UKIP Couple and Fostering. - Roger.

Well, we shall see what happens tomorrow. I shall be going to Rotherham early tomorrow to lend a hand: probably freezing my butt off outside a polling station, or maybe ferrying voters to the poll. I think that Labour will romp home in Rotherham; anything else would be astonishing. The RESPECT party will do very well, due to the local demographics and realistically, I see UKIP in a fight with them for second place. Reply to this message | Report message       1

Wed 28 Nov 12 16:40   UKIP Couple and Fostering. - Manatee

We disaparage Nigel Farage Labour's Ed's a dunderhead. Clegg and Cable? Well Vince is able... Now Britain doffs To Bullingdon toffs. with apologies to W. McGonagall Reply to this message | Report message

Tue 27 Nov 12 19:38   UKIP Couple and Fostering. - Westpig

>> If those are your private views then no. >> >> On the other hand suppose you were an active campaigning member of a political organisation. >> That organisation was promoting strong immigration control with specific policies about Eastern European residents and >> against accepting other cultures in our society. >> >> In those circs a court or local authority might reflect, particularly before letting you foster >> kids from Eastern Europe. >> So let's get this straight then. I could be a good father/foster father. I could be a compassionate person who would like to do well for any child regardless of where they come from. I might have friends /acquaintances /close work colleagues from all over the world, (inc Eastern Europe), I might have the patience, family support, income and intelligence to give some troubled child a good break from their misfortune... ...yet, because I think that our county's border is far too porous and that politically we should be doing something about it..and join a party that says it would do ...then I shouldn't be entrusted by officialdom to foster a child? Oh by the way, apart from joining UKIP, the above example is me. Reply to this message | Report message       1

Tue 27 Nov 12 19:42   UKIP Couple and Fostering. - Zero

>> Oh by the way, apart from joining UKIP, the above example is me. In who's opinion? Now that's not being facetious, how would an adoption panel see you? Reply to this message | Report message       1

Tue 27 Nov 12 19:52   UKIP Couple and Fostering. - Westpig

>> In who's opinion? Mine. >> Now that's not being facetious, how would an adoption panel see you? >> I would never pass an adoption panel. If you were to accept that what I've just posted is accurate, do you not think that sad? Reply to this message | Report message       3

Tue 27 Nov 12 19:46   UKIP Couple and Fostering. - Bromptonaut

Westpig, What I said was 'officialdom' might want to reflect on the balance between one's undoubted humanity towards those kids and the risk of them being exposed to views and propaganda of the "send 'em home" variety. If there's a UKIP poster in the window and UKIP is advocating the views I quoted in my post at 19:37 then, might not children, particularly those in their teens and becoming aware of politics take a message? And I'm not going down the 'personal' line; I of course realised the example was you. Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Tue 27 Nov 12 at 19:49 Reply to this message | Report message

Tue 27 Nov 12 20:16   UKIP Couple and Fostering. - Westpig

>> What I said was 'officialdom' might want to reflect on the balance between one's undoubted >> humanity towards those kids and the risk of them being exposed to views and propaganda >> of the "send 'em home" variety. B, Two people who have now become friends of ours (they are coming to stay in the New Year) are from Romania. She started off as my cleaner and he, her then boyfriend now husband, became my builder. They have considerably more firm views on immigration than I do. A lady in my old office, who hails from the Caribbean and still has a slight accent and whom came back from there laden with presents after a visit to relatives (bottle of rum, a mug and a few other things), because i'd gone out of my way to help her when she was mistreated by others and was bullied...she had most firm views about immigration. If kids from their culture were brought up by me or someone like me, they'd likely have less firm views about immigration than their parents. >> If there's a UKIP poster in the window and >> UKIP is advocating the views I quoted in my post at 19:37 then, might not >> children, particularly those in their teens and becoming aware of politics take a message? Yes...and so what? They might equally go the other way with their thoughts, plenty of kids do. Last edited by: Westpig on Tue 27 Nov 12 at 20:17 Reply to this message | Report message       3

Tue 27 Nov 12 20:32   UKIP Couple and Fostering. - Bromptonaut

WP, You raise some interesting points about the views of those descended from fifties/sixties immigrants. I work with two lovely ladies from (different) Caribbean heritages. One has views similar to my own pinko Guardian politics and will chip in to a right drifting office discussion with a cool killer fact whether on immigration or benefits claims. The other is heavily supportive of the £25k benefits cap because 'those people' might get more than she struggles on - ignoring her husband's income. She's also the only person I've ever had to chide for racism after some narrative about West Africans. Reply to this message | Report message

Tue 27 Nov 12 22:03   UKIP Couple and Fostering. - Westpig

It's normal for human beings to have varying views. What isn't right is for left leaning social workers to remove needy children out of a perfectly safe place..just because in the future they might end up with views they disapprove of. Reply to this message | Report message       1

Tue 27 Nov 12 22:13   UKIP Couple and Fostering. - Bromptonaut

I don't think they're really left leaning. The more I read about this the more I think it's a co*k up. The Council had been criticised by the court for not giving enough weight to the kids cultural needs in one placing. They then discovered that the second placing were UKIP members and, whether rightly or wrongly, thought that compounded the first offence. I doubt we'll learn the full facts because of either confidentiality or the need for a sacrificial 'holding to account'. Reply to this message | Report message       1

Wed 28 Nov 12 19:11   UKIP Couple and Fostering. - Bromptonaut

Matthew D'Ancona in tonight's Standard: www.standard.co.uk/comment/comment/the-pm-should-avoid-ukip--its-a-state-of-mind-not-a-party-8364171.html I couldn't put it better. Reply to this message | Report message

Wed 28 Nov 12 19:22   UKIP Couple and Fostering. - Roger.

From the comments following this article:- "First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." -- Mahatma Gandhi Reply to this message | Report message       2

Wed 28 Nov 12 19:30   UKIP Couple and Fostering. - WillDeBeest

"First they ignore you, then they ridicule you. Do you want fries with that?" -- Nigel Farage, 2015 Reply to this message | Report message       1

Wed 28 Nov 12 20:03   UKIP Couple and Fostering. - Zero

From the comments following this article:- >> "First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." >> -- Mahatma Gandhi >> I cant take any party seriously that has members who spent a long time living in europe through the auspices of the EU, then come back and want to shut up shop against the same EU. People who claims the party is not racist but holds profoundly racist views themselves. If the party has such two faced ideals as it members then ridicule is richly deserved. Reply to this message | Report message

Wed 28 Nov 12 19:31   UKIP Couple and Fostering. - Armel Coussine

D'Ancona seems to be right about UKIP and Cameron. The weak part of his and Rotherham's argument is that there is any real probability of small foster children being 'traumatised' by political literature or impassioned adult conversation. Are these people suspected of fostering children just to torture them with disparaging comment on their origins? Reply to this message | Report message       1

Wed 28 Nov 12 19:43   UKIP Couple and Fostering. - Stuu

>>The weak part of his and Rotherham's argument is that there is any real probability of small foster children being 'traumatised' by political literature or impassioned adult conversation << My dad was a full blown Thatcherite. I didnt know that until I was 17. I dont understand anyone who would try and politicise their children, it sounds more than a little perverse, kids have far more interesting things to do like getting covered in mud. Reply to this message | Report message

Wed 28 Nov 12 19:51   UKIP Couple and Fostering. - -

from the article.. ''The whole point of Ukip is that it cannot be wooed, or tamed with a pact.'' can't be bought?, shock! now that presents a real problem for the three cheeks, how do they buy someone off who doesn't come with a price tag. Reply to this message | Report message

Wed 28 Nov 12 20:04   UKIP Couple and Fostering. - WillDeBeest

If by 'politicize', Stu, you mean 'use for political ends' then I'd agree with you. But children take in more of the adult world than some adults imagine. They hear news stories and then actively seek out information. My 9yo asks questions about Syria that I find hard to answer, likes to present dramatic tableaux based on Steve Bell's If strip, and has become - spontaneously - such a strident anti-monarchist that we have to ask him to tone it down in company. But politics is life. Anyone who says they're not interested in it really ought to turn off Get Me Out Of Strictly Come X-Factor and think a bit. I'd actually rather someone vote for UKIP than not vote at all. Reply to this message | Report message

Wed 28 Nov 12 20:13   UKIP Couple and Fostering. - Zero

>> But politics is life. Anyone who says they're not interested in it really ought to >> turn off Get Me Out Of Strictly Come X-Factor and think a bit. I'd actually >> rather someone vote for UKIP than not vote at all. Rather harsh. I dont vote because its really not required and actually quite pointless. Where I live is staunchly Conservative with a BIG C. I cant change the outcome, I can raise a protest vote but there is no-one standing to protest to, I could spoil my ballot paper but that is pointless and childish. Many of us are like that, the balance of political change is limited to a few marginal constituencies, where voters can make a difference. You can say our forbears fought to give us the vote, but by the same outcome gave us the right not to vote if we dont want to. Now this raises an interesting point, should we by law be forced to vote Reply to this message | Report message

Wed 28 Nov 12 20:33   UKIP Couple and Fostering. - Armel Coussine

Like the Australians. Perhaps they are allowed to spoil their papers, but I think they have to turn up. There are landslid elections sometimes, sea-changes in the electorate's attitudes. If you don't vote you can't influence the event. A bit like doing the lottery: if you don't pay your prole tax you can't win countless millions and a hacienda in, cough, Surrey. Reply to this message | Report message

Wed 28 Nov 12 20:43   UKIP Couple and Fostering. - Bromptonaut

Just occasionally, twice in my lifetime so far, in 1983 and 1997 there has been a sea change at an election. In the latter Northants was turned form a blue county to one that was red with one blue patch. And even there, Dav, it needed a recount for second place. My tactical vote helped do that. The Northampton South fella, Michael Morris, was on a soapbox at the station a couple of days before the election. He was going through the motions of retaining his seat. He lost and sounded, on the radio on Friday like a man who'd taken a charging bull in the solar plexus. So did a few others including Tony Newton - a real example of a decent Tory who I subsequently met occasionally on the Quango circuit. Reply to this message | Report message

Wed 28 Nov 12 22:03   UKIP Couple and Fostering. - No FM2R

>>Now this raises an interesting point, should we by law be forced to vote Until the current elections, it was compulsory to vote in Chile. They have just removed that law on the basis that in a true democracy it is one of your rights not to vote. Reply to this message | Report message

Wed 28 Nov 12 22:12   UKIP Couple and Fostering. - -

>> >>Now this raises an interesting point, should we by law be forced to vote >> When the vote is confidential secure and impossible to corrupt, yes. Reply to this message | Report message       1

Wed 28 Nov 12 22:14   UKIP Couple and Fostering. - swiss tony

>> >> >>Now this raises an interesting point, should we by law be forced to vote >> >> When the vote is confidential secure and impossible to corrupt, yes. >> So we will never forced to in the UK.... Reply to this message | Report message       1

Wed 28 Nov 12 22:23   UKIP Couple and Fostering. - -

>> So we will never forced to in the UK.... I don't think we will be forced, not because the electoral process will be secured properly and confidentially, but because the outcome wouldn't be predictable enough, too many voters might not take enough notice of the propaganda. Those millions of uninterested might just vote wrong, can't risk the party of the three cheeks. Reply to this message | Report message       1

Wed 28 Nov 12 22:31   UKIP Couple and Fostering. - swiss tony

>> I don't think we will be forced, not because the electoral process will be secured >> properly and confidentially, but because the outcome wouldn't be predictable enough, too many voters might not take enough notice of the propaganda. I don't vote. Because, I have believed for a long time, that our system is in no way secure. Our name has a number, against which the number on the voting slip is noted. It would be VERY easy to go backwards, ... ie voting slip 12144 (voted raving loonie party) was given to 954655 John Smith, of 78 Green Lane, Tring. Reply to this message | Report message

Wed 28 Nov 12 22:51   UKIP Couple and Fostering. - Manatee

The election of the future. Party leaders and key ministry spokespersons will be the contestants in a special series of Britain's Got Talent. Everybody on the electoral roll will be issued a PIN to go with their number, authenticating the required numbers of votes per week. The results will be just as reliable as the existing system, easier to count, and with double the turnout. And I'm not joking. Reply to this message | Report message

Wed 28 Nov 12 22:38   UKIP Couple and Fostering. - No FM2R

>>So we will never forced to in the UK.... ....because we have no unique and effective ID document which will irrevocably allow the tying of a voting slip to a single person. Reply to this message | Report message

Wed 28 Nov 12 22:52   UKIP Couple and Fostering. - Lygonos

GCHQ is well aware of who votes for the 'dodgy' parties by virtue of voter ID. Reply to this message | Report message

Wed 28 Nov 12 22:56   UKIP Couple and Fostering. - Zero

>> GCHQ is well aware of who votes for the 'dodgy' parties by virtue of voter >> ID. No it doesent. Everything is on paper, they dont have the resources to sort out all the bits of paper Reply to this message | Report message

Wed 28 Nov 12 23:09   UKIP Couple and Fostering. - Lygonos

They just keep the ones from the "Communist" / "BNP" etc piles. Reply to this message | Report message

Wed 28 Nov 12 23:13   UKIP Couple and Fostering. - Manatee

Shirley they can't identify the voter from the ballot paper? Apparently yes - www.guardian.co.uk/notesandqueries/query/0,,-1051,00.html Reply to this message | Report message

Wed 28 Nov 12 23:34   UKIP Couple and Fostering. - No FM2R

>>Apparently yes How? They dont ask for your passport when giving the form to you, do they? Reply to this message | Report message

Wed 28 Nov 12 23:44   UKIP Couple and Fostering. - Manatee

>> >>Apparently yes >> >> How? They dont ask for your passport when giving the form to you, do they? Your point being that the person whose ballot paper number could tie back to the name and address of somebody who has been impersonated? True I suppose. I happened to be away the day and night of the Police Commissioner election. Maybe I should find out whether I voted! Reply to this message | Report message

Wed 28 Nov 12 23:58   UKIP Couple and Fostering. - No FM2R

>>Your point being that the person whose ballot paper number could tie back to the name and address of somebody who has been impersonated? True I suppose. Yes sorry, that was my point. It'd be even more important if anyone was considering making voting compulsory. Maybe we should have ID cards in the UK. Dunno why we never discuss that, really. Reply to this message | Report message

Wed 28 Nov 12 23:14   UKIP Couple and Fostering. - Zero

>> They just keep the ones from the "Communist" / "BNP" etc piles. No they dont. Reply to this message | Report message

Wed 28 Nov 12 23:18   UKIP Couple and Fostering. - CGNorwich

"No they dont." I think the Doc was exhibiting his dry sense of humour Mr Z Reply to this message | Report message

Wed 28 Nov 12 23:35   UKIP Couple and Fostering. - Zero

>> >> "No they dont." >> >> I think the Doc was exhibiting his dry sense of humour Mr Z I was just clarifying it for our BNP/Commie party members, dont want them switching to UKIP now do we. Reply to this message | Report message

Wed 28 Nov 12 21:10   UKIP Couple and Fostering. - Stuu

>>If by 'politicize', Stu, you mean 'use for political ends' << By that I mean intentionally indoctrinating children at a young age to belong to a specific party. I honestly never really paid much attention to politics and my dad was not one for discussing it at the dinner table ( the only time I ever saw him outside of holidays ). Now as an adult I realise my dad was a conservative and perhaps slightly amusingly, his father was a jew-hating Labour diehard - definately a product of the times! From what my dad has told he, his generation may have been more influenced by their parents politics than mine, but as an 80's child, the first 17 years of my life and formative years were solid Conservative, so maybe it just didnt occur to me there was anyone else. Reply to this message | Report message

Wed 28 Nov 12 21:35   UKIP Couple and Fostering. - Bromptonaut

>> By that I mean intentionally indoctrinating children at a young age to belong to a >> specific party. One of the questions I wish I'd asked my Dad was 'What exactly were your student and subsequent politics'? He was however quite private about such things and remote in a way I hope I've never been to my two. I suspect from snippets and from publications stored in cubby holes in our childhood home that he was in some sect of Marxism at Leeds Uni and in late forties Rochdale. My Mother OTOH was and is a moderate Conservative. Liked Heath as a man from her own type of background and respected Macmillan/Home who although aristocrats had known how to treat the servants and been in the egalitarian environment of trenches. Less keen on Thatcher or the current lot. So at home we had the Guardian on one hand and the Yorkshire Post (a West Riding specific clone of the Mail) on the other. I hope I made up my own mind. Mrs B was brought up in more determinedly left household but also with a Mother who might stray to the 'reasonable' Tories. Should I be worried that both my kids lean to the left? Reply to this message | Report message

Wed 28 Nov 12 22:17   UKIP Couple and Fostering. - Stuu

>>Should I be worried that both my kids lean to the left? << If they do, I would take em to the doctor. Maybe if you hang weights on their righthand ear it will help with the balance :-) Janan Ganesh recently suggested that UKIP has alot in common with Poujadism in France and also that it is a mix of left and rightwing ideas along with anti-globalisation rather than an exclusively rightwing movement, hence it doesnt exclusively draw support just from the right but also the left aswell, such as the Rotherham couple who were ex Labour. Reply to this message | Report message       1

Wed 28 Nov 12 22:45   UKIP Couple and Fostering. - Lygonos

Not that I'm suggesting UKIP are like the BNP/NF/NSDAP.... .... but all separationist/elitist/racist/nationalist/etc parties of note have a "get the unclean out/make them integrate" wing which might be thought of as 'far-right', and a "we all need to work together to make a better country/protectionist ideation" that may be seen as 'socialist-left'. The common thread is they can put the nation's ills at the doorstep of a specific group of non-indigenous types, or immigration-friendly policies. Reply to this message | Report message

Wed 28 Nov 12 23:14   UKIP Couple and Fostering. - Stuu

>>The common thread is they can put the nation's ills at the doorstep of a specific group of non-indigenous types, or immigration-friendly policies.<< The feeling I get from UKIP members and supporters is that the immigration issue is one of economics and service provision and the only bar people have to jump over is be a citizen through a standardised process rather than be from a specific ethnic group. The cultural policies are born out of a desire for a more cohesive society. A quote from Trevor Phillips sums it up quite well. He' called for the government to reject its support for multiculturalism, claiming it was out of date, and legitimised "separateness" between communities and instead should "assert a core of Britishness' The UKIP line is essentially the Trevor Phillips line, so again, its is hardly an extreme view. Reply to this message | Report message

Wed 28 Nov 12 23:22   UKIP Couple and Fostering. - Lygonos

"Assert a core of Britishness" But shirley with a shrunken Gestadt there will be no-one there to assert diddly. And I'd love a global, agreed-on-by-everyone, definition of 'Britishness'. I really would. Reply to this message | Report message

Wed 28 Nov 12 23:25   UKIP Couple and Fostering. - Zero

>> "Assert a core of Britishness" >> >> But shirley with a shrunken Gestadt there will be no-one there to assert diddly. >> >> And I'd love a global, agreed-on-by-everyone, definition of 'Britishness'. >> >> I really would. Its that thing Alex Salmond wants to leave behind? Reply to this message | Report message

Wed 28 Nov 12 23:29   UKIP Couple and Fostering. - John H

>> And I'd love a global, agreed-on-by-everyone, definition of 'Britishness'. >> >> I really would. >> Drinking warm beer in the midday sun on a hot summer's day, while wearing ill-fitting shorts, topless, but socks with sandals. Fag optional, male or female. Last edited by: John H on Wed 28 Nov 12 at 23:30 Reply to this message | Report message

Wed 28 Nov 12 23:36   UKIP Couple and Fostering. - -

>> The cultural policies are born out of a desire for a more cohesive society. A >> quote from Trevor Phillips sums it up quite well. He' called for the government to >> reject its support for multiculturalism, claiming it was out of date, and legitimised "separateness" between >> communities and instead should "assert a core of Britishness' Have i fallen asleep and woken up in a parallel universe. Trevor Philips, the multiculturalists previous front man, have his sails taken him on a new completely different tack to where he was before, i think not. Maybe a good betting man our Trev, hedging them. Reply to this message | Report message

Thu 29 Nov 12 17:21   UKIP Couple and Fostering. - Stuu

www.pinknews.co.uk/2012/11/29/comment-ukip-and-homosexuality-a-gay-members-view/ Reply to this message | Report message

Thu 29 Nov 12 17:42   UKIP Couple and Fostering. - Manatee

I wonder what he's a student of. Not English, obviously. Reply to this message | Report message

Sat 1 Dec 12 10:34   UKIP Couple and Fostering. - Bromptonaut

More detail of case in yesterday's Guardian. www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/nov/30/ukip-row-many-reasons-children-removed If correct family are not Poles but Roma. Complex indeed. Reply to this message | Report message

Sat 1 Dec 12 13:06   UKIP Couple and Fostering. - Manatee

Nigel Farage 'comic creation that got out of hand' - The Mash is on a roll with another exclusive...goo.gl/7gGRL Reply to this message | Report message

Sat 1 Dec 12 15:53   UKIP Couple and Fostering. - Westpig

>> If correct family are not Poles but Roma. Complex indeed. >> Why would Romany children be any different to Polish children and why would that make it complex indeed? They are children. Reply to this message | Report message       1

Sat 1 Dec 12 15:59   UKIP Couple and Fostering. - Dutchie

You are right Westpig a child is a child no matter what their history is.Arn't we making problems where there is none? Reply to this message | Report message       2

Sat 1 Dec 12 16:18   UKIP Couple and Fostering. - Bromptonaut

>> Why would Romany children be any different to Polish children and why would that make >> it complex indeed? >> >> They are children. They're Roma children. Roma is not I think the same thing as our Romany community though they have common ethnic roots. The Roma are a minority in several parts of Eastern Europe including Czech, Slovakia, Hungary. There's more than a tendency for them to be discriminated against in those countries and the press here are keen to link them to thieving, pickpocketing, begging, people trafficking etc. Maybe, just maybe, that makes meeting their cultural needs more difficult. It also ups the ante in relation to the suggestion that UKIP might have some closet or not so closet racists amongst its membership. You need to read the Guardian report to follow the complexity - mix of poor housing, allegations of sexual misconduct by a parent etc etc etc. Reply to this message | Report message

Sat 1 Dec 12 16:36   UKIP Couple and Fostering. - Zero

As i suspected and pointed out at the birth of this thread, many reasons for removal of kids from foster parents, plenty of them could have been cited rather than the "UKIP issue" And as it happens, amazing how quick the parents were to flag up the UKIP issue to the party, sound like heavily involved, almost militant supporters to me. Reply to this message | Report message

Sat 1 Dec 12 17:08   UKIP Couple and Fostering. - Stuu

>>And as it happens, amazing how quick the parents were to flag up the UKIP issue to the party, sound like heavily involved, almost militant supporters to me. << Who else would you expect them to turn to? If UKIP hadnt made it public, nobody would have ever known though I suspect that is exactly what you would want. It is odd how this whole back story has come to light only after such a fuss was made about the first explanation the council came up with and a lurid story it is too, very creative but I suppose it had to be. Reply to this message | Report message       1

Sat 1 Dec 12 17:27   UKIP Couple and Fostering. - Zero

>> >>And as it happens, amazing how quick the parents were to flag up the UKIP >> issue to the party, sound like heavily involved, almost militant supporters to me. << >> >> Who else would you expect them to turn to? If UKIP hadnt made it public, >> nobody would have ever known though I suspect that is exactly what you would want. >> >> It is odd how this whole back story has come to light only after such >> a fuss was made about the first explanation the council came up with and a >> lurid story it is too, very creative but I suppose it had to be. Ok so its all a pack of lies recently made up to disguise the fact that the kids were taken away because they innocently voted UKIP at the last election. Do me a favour, no wonder UKIP have sucked you in if you are that gullible. Either that or you need to join UKIP to peddle such claptrap to others. Reply to this message | Report message

Sat 1 Dec 12 17:43   UKIP Couple and Fostering. - Stuu

>>Ok so its all a pack of lies recently made up to disguise the fact that the kids were taken away because they innocently voted UKIP at the last election. Do me a favour, no wonder UKIP have sucked you in if you are that gullible. Either that or you need to join UKIP to peddle such claptrap to others. << Thacker went on TV to tell us why the foster parents had the children removed and it is pretty absurd to think she forgot all the other reasons - there werent any or she would have said the first time around. I like that you are so naive and trusting, poor Joyce, she forgets things all the time in her high paid job. No, she realised they needed another reason and have now provided one after some thought. Nice to see you crack, worth poking the bear when it reacts so easily, insults from you, Im honoured :-) Last edited by: FoR on Sat 1 Dec 12 at 17:43 Reply to this message | Report message       3

Sat 1 Dec 12 18:15   UKIP Couple and Fostering. - Zero

>> Nice to see you crack, worth poking the bear when it reacts so easily, i I can afford to, not being a manic depressive. Reply to this message | Report message       1

Sat 1 Dec 12 18:20   UKIP Couple and Fostering. - Stuu

>>I can afford to, not being a manic depressive << Thats a low blow. Technical point - not manic, more AD if anything. If you are going to insult, atleast get your aim right. Reply to this message | Report message       10

Sat 1 Dec 12 18:36   UKIP Couple and Fostering. - Bromptonaut

Queensbury rules Z, Queensbury rules. The first scowl was mine. Reply to this message | Report message       14

Sat 1 Dec 12 18:42   UKIP Couple and Fostering. - Westpig

>> I can afford to, not being a manic depressive. >> That was a wholly unnecessary and below the belt remark, that any decent person would apologise for. Reply to this message | Report message       17

Sat 1 Dec 12 18:49   UKIP Couple and Fostering. - Skip

>> >> I can afford to, not being a manic depressive. >> As already said, a below the belt comment and be very thankful that you do not suffer from depression ! Reply to this message | Report message       13

Sat 1 Dec 12 19:04   UKIP Couple and Fostering. - Zero

. Last edited by: Zero on Sat 1 Dec 12 at 19:07 Reply to this message | Report message       1

Sat 1 Dec 12 19:25   UKIP Couple and Fostering. - Stuu

You really do look down your nose at people who have depression dont you, only just stopped short of telling us you are genetically superior. I saw the comment you deleted. Shame on you, that was even lower. Reply to this message | Report message       8

Sat 1 Dec 12 19:31   UKIP Couple and Fostering. - Zero

>> You really do look down your nose at people who have depression dont you, only >> just stopped short of telling us you are genetically superior. >> >> I saw the comment you deleted. Shame on you, that was even lower. Oh dear. Truth hurts does it? Last edited by: Zero on Sat 1 Dec 12 at 19:31 Reply to this message | Report message

Sat 1 Dec 12 19:35   UKIP Couple and Fostering. - Stuu

>>Oh dear. Truth hurts does it? << Might hurt you more in this case. I cant help what happened to me as a child and the problems it left me with, but you can certainly help the rubbish that comes out of your big mouth. Reply to this message | Report message       12

Sat 1 Dec 12 19:37   UKIP Couple and Fostering. - Zero

Truth you mean? Is what I said false in *any* way? Last edited by: Zero on Sat 1 Dec 12 at 19:37 Reply to this message | Report message

Sat 1 Dec 12 20:05   UKIP Couple and Fostering. - Stuu

About me yes, I dont have manic depression, end of, only an idiot who doesnt know what they are blathering on about would say that. Why dont you have the stones to post up what you deleted - you only deleted it because it was a bit too close to what you really think, maybe you dont want us inferior depressives judging you, I wouldnt know, Im too busy chewing my hanky, or whatever it is you think depressed people do. Reply to this message | Report message

Sat 1 Dec 12 20:17   UKIP Couple and Fostering. - Bromptonaut

So what did he say then delete? My OH suffers from depression. Her sister had bi-polar disorder which probably contributed to her early death well before reaching 50. I've got every tolerance giong for mental health issues; people need to be cut slack not baited. But none whatsoever for UKIP :-) Reply to this message | Report message

Sat 1 Dec 12 21:13   UKIP Couple and Fostering. - Stuu

>>So what did he say then delete? << Im not going to quote him, he will only deny it. He isnt brave enough to repeat it, that says enough. I get the impression from what he said then swiftly deleted that he considers depression sufferers mentally inferior to himself. >>But none whatsoever for UKIP :-) << To be fair, I dont have any for Labour, so lets call it evens :-) Reply to this message | Report message

Sat 1 Dec 12 21:49   UKIP Couple and Fostering. - Zero

>> >>So what did he say then delete? << >> >> Im not going to quote him, he will only deny it. He isnt brave enough >> to repeat it, that says enough. He knows when to stop kicking the ball around before someone gets hurt. Reply to this message | Report message

Sat 1 Dec 12 21:18   UKIP Couple and Fostering. - Armel Coussine

>> Truth you mean? You don't always lie Zero. But you don't hesitate when roused. You are nasty and sometimes pathetically dishonest. I don't expect you to understand that. Why would you? It doesn't fit. You're the man, innit? It's a mistake to treat you as an equal. You just aren't up to it. Reply to this message | Report message       8

Sun 2 Dec 12 00:30   UKIP Couple and Fostering. - Armel Coussine

>> You are nasty Actually on reflection I think that's a bit overstated. But you think it's all right to turn nasty without explaining yourself. Only a whisker away from being nasty. Reply to this message | Report message

Sat 1 Dec 12 16:39   UKIP Couple and Fostering. - Dutchie

All main parties will have closet or not so closet members.Go into any pub or workplace and listen to some of the conversations.Farrage is playing on these feelings like Geert Wilders did in the Netherlands.It backfired on him in this year election and the voters went back to the main paries to sort the economy out. Reply to this message | Report message       1

Sat 1 Dec 12 18:49   UKIP Couple and Fostering. - Westpig

>> They're Roma children. Roma is not I think the same thing as our Romany community >> though they have common ethnic roots. Needy children are needy children. It's only interfering adults that complicate things. It shouldn't matter a toss where a baby comes from if they need a temporary caring foster parent. ..and as for the UKIP angle, that was left wing social workers and similar having the hump that right leaning people were fostering young children..and they might influence their thoughts as they grow up. We're not talking the Nazi party here, are we. How ridiculous. Reply to this message | Report message       3

Sat 1 Dec 12 18:54   UKIP Couple and Fostering. - Westpig

>> the press here are keen to link them to thieving, pickpocketing, begging, people trafficking >> etc. Why do you think that is? >> Maybe, just maybe, that makes meeting their cultural needs more difficult. Maybe, maybe not. Do their cultural needs at some distant point come before their need to be loved and nurtured now? >> It also ups the >> ante in relation to the suggestion that UKIP might have some closet or not so >> closet racists amongst its membership. Which political party doesn't have closet racists. As I posted before, Margaret Hodge had to change her tune on immigration, fairly pronto, when she worked out her Labour electorate were objecting to some/all immigration.... and she'd need them 'on line' to be re-elected. It isn't just a 'right' issue. Reply to this message | Report message       4

Sat 1 Dec 12 17:31   UKIP Couple and Fostering. - Manatee

>> Why would Romany children be any different to Polish children and why would that make >> it complex indeed? I can easily see why. There is more sensitivity around the ethnic origin if it's Roma than there would be if it were just "Polish", or "Hungarian". For a start, it is specifically a clear ethnic identity rather than a nationality. These things matter a lot in Eastern Europe. That doesn't explain why Ms Thacker majored on the UKIPness of the parents, rather than saying there was more to it than she was free to speak about, not in relation to the foster parents' UKIP membership, and leaving it at that. But the R4 interview was a disaster, not helped by Naughtie's confrontational style on that occasion, and subsequent ones presumably took the same tack. Reply to this message | Report message       1

Sat 1 Dec 12 17:40   UKIP Couple and Fostering. - Roger.

news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/8226580.stm Reply to this message | Report message       1

Sun 2 Dec 12 04:32   UKIP Couple and Fostering. - Pat

BBC report is from 2009. Pat Reply to this message | Report message

Sun 2 Dec 12 10:49   UKIP Couple and Fostering. - Westpig

>> BBC report is from 2009. >> Has it suddenly stopped? Reply to this message | Report message