Whilst many people disagree with these awards, I think it is right to honour special achievements by persons that have contributed to this Great nation.
Musicians have given pleasure to millions worldwide and in my opinion deservedly been honoured from Tom Jones, to Paul McCartney and Elton John, so when will one of the greatest innovative artists be honoured, the one and only David Bowie ..and in my opinion Roger Waters( pink Floyd).
On a more serious note, every year leaders of industry and banking annually get rewarded, but I can NEVER remember a lifeboat person of 40 years, who has saved 100's of lives, a plasma donor of 1000 donations or more, who has saved 1000's of lives, or a blood donor or a Samaritan worker or MacMillan nurse of long standing, ever receiving an award..... How can they be nominated for a Knight/ dame hood, far more deserving than say Trevor MacDonald, who only read the news, but somehow got a Knighthood
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Lollipop ladies can get 'awards' these days.
Meaningless pap.
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One of Bowie's original band Spiders from Mars lives very close by. He was telling me that if Bowie did just one comeback concert his pension would be sorted.
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Was going to see the stones again, but their upcoming ticket prices are outrageous.
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>>>One of Bowie's original band Spiders from Mars lives very close by. He was telling me that if Bowie did just one comeback concert his pension would be sorted.
Drummer or bassist I wonder? Anyway I think with his £100 million+ fortune Bowie is already sorted. Saw a recent pic of him out in New York and he looked fine for his age. Said not to like flying these days so less likely to see him over here.
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Honours for doing a job and being very well paid for it - devalues the whole honours system.
Honours for selfless community service - that's what they should be for.
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They should also only be awarded to people who are likely to be a dignified credit to their profession and to society in general after they have been given the award.
Tasteless objectionable people shouldn't be given titles whatever their achievements and contribution.
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"Honours for doing a job and being very well paid for it - devalues the whole honours system.
Honours for selfless community service - that's what they should be for."
I think that's how most of us feel. It was OK to give honours to sports stars in the pre-professional days, but now they should only be given awards after following up with, say, a lifetime of coaching and developing youngsters. This would mean a qualifying age of around 60. I remember Tony Blair handing out MBE's to the England cricket team after scraping the Ashes - only to lose them again pathetically in the following series.
I suppose this is all part of the general decline in .... er..... everything?
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>> Honours for doing a job and being very well paid for it - devalues the
>> whole honours system.
Chief Constables, Senior Govt Civil servants get well paid, inflation linked guaranteed pensions etc and they get a gong for doing their job..............RUBBISH.
If a scientist makes a ground breaking discovery or breakthrough then that should be rewarded as it is well above and beyond what might reasonably be expected.
For example Beta Blockers, a heart drug, was made by Prof Black in Dundee. He was made a Sir and saved 100s of thousands of lives worldwide in the last 30 years.
In general awards should be for people doing something for the community, in their time and their expense.
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Now the honours system only serves as ego massage exercise for wanna be celebrities.
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When the highest title in the land can only be obtained by birth, it's not hard to see why titles below that rank are allocated and distributed by unfair and corrupt mechanisms, rather than by merit.
The fish rots from the head down.
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>> When the highest title in the land can only be obtained by birth, it's not
>> hard to see why titles below that rank are allocated and distributed by unfair and
>> corrupt mechanisms,
>>
I agree. All titles should be by inheritance only. :)
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There are far fewer Knighthoods/Damehoods given with the job these days as a look around names of Whitehall Permanent Secretaries will confirm.
www.civilservice.gov.uk/about/leadership/permanent-secretaries
List is not entirely up to date, Ursula Brennan for example has moved to Justice as Sir Suma Chakrabati was appointed to head an international body.
Those at and below CBE level largely go to people who've been eminent in their fields or whose contribution is voluntary. Plenty go to ordinary people nominated by their peers.
I've occasionally been on the fringes of the nomination/awarding process for particular individuals and there's absolutely nothing corrupt about it.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Mon 12 Nov 12 at 13:26
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>> there's absolutely nothing corrupt about it.
Nor is it 'meaningless pap' as Lygonos claims. It may seem so to a sternly republican jock doc, but I would think - in fact I know - that many ordinary decent recipients are quietly pleased and flattered to receive a modest gong officially acknowledging their lifelong effort and clean noses.
Yes, knighthoods have been given to vulgarians and toerags, but they of course are to be found everywhere, even in the ranks of the hereditary nobility. So what? Most awards can be seen to be deserved in some way. I bet Lygonos would be pleased if he were offered a gong for trying to deter people from drinking and smoking themselves to death, even if he felt obliged to maintain a stern countenance and politely turn it down.
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I'm not a republican - I see the Royals as an idiosyncratic and largely harmless (possibly even overall beneficial) part of Britishism.
Would I gnash my teeth if they disappeared? No, but neither do I clamour for their removal and the insertion of some ex-parliamentarian.
I like that the Armed Forces are loyal to the monarch and country rather than the Govt of the day (although in practice it's probably the same thing).
Do we need MBE, CBE, Knighthoods or Pink Oboes?
Not in the slightest.
I've already got an honorific title that I prefer not to use - I don't need/wish another.
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Sorry for getting you wrong Lygonos. I was sure you were a republican.
>> I've already got an honorific title that I prefer not to use - I don't need/wish another.
Sir Lancelot ('Just call me Lance') Spratt? I'm sure a further leg-up will seem good... Thane of Glamis and Cawdor... like it, like it.
:o}
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I know a guy who has an old "Access" well, I suppose it's a "Mastercard" account now which when he applied for it back in the dark ages had an option to change the title part of the would be account holder's address. I don't suppose the system was sophisticated enough then to query such things and he duly got his card with "Lord" instead of "Mr" on it. Still has it I think. He says it's just fun when checking in to hotels or when paying for meals and so on. I'd be deeply embarrased I think.
Conversely, I also still know another guy I went to school with who is now a real ( inherited title ) Lord but he never uses the title in public as far as I know. Most people who we now both know or have met in later life certainly don't realise it.
Goodness knows what a psychologist would make of either of them.
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When I was a fresher at university nearly half a century ago (eek!) all freshers were invited to a "get to know you" do with name badges. One poor sod went with his title.. and never lived it down for the year he was there..(failed exams and was kicked out)..
We were a boisterous lot and meeting a real "sir" was an invitation to extract urine..
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Michael Winner turned one down and was quoted as saying something like 'they give these to toilet cleaners'...which amused me then and since.
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I remember one of my first bosses being asked how he would prefer to be addressed and he replied "You can call me Sir". It was so hard to hold it together when just out of his earshot an older member of his team muttered something about it being spelled "cur"...
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>> We were a boisterous lot and meeting a real "sir" was an invitation to extract
>> urine..
>>
An 18 year old Knight of the Realm? That's unusual. It's not a hereditary title, after all.
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>> >> We were a boisterous lot and meeting a real "sir" was an invitation to
>> extract
>> >> urine..
>> >>
>>
>> An 18 year old Knight of the Realm? That's unusual. It's not a hereditary title,
>> after all.
>>
Never heard of a Baronet?
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Yes. Are they entitled to use the title "Sir"? I didn't know that if so. Thanks.
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Every day's a school day.
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I believe Sir George Young, recently appointed Chief Whip, is a baronet.
In fact he's known as the bicycling baronet.
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>> Never heard of a Baronet?
>>
It's usually abbreviated to Bart ~ as in Bart Simpson.
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Notting Hill carnival was usually eventful. People some of whom one didn't often see used to come to the house and stay there all day getting in many cases rather out of it. One such was a long-standing acquaintance, not an intimate friend, but an agreeable, pleasant, distinguished-looking individual who liked a drink.
Taking a turn in the street quite late in the afternoon, I was a bit taken aback to see this guy being led down the road by two coppers. I asked what was up and he said in a flustered, rather angry way that he had been arrested for obstruction, and would I give him a character reference in court if necessary? Well, of course. But the coppers led him away to the nick anyway, looking well pleased - I suppose it was an easier nick than most of the ones that take place on carnival day.
My house guest, it turned out, had remonstrated with some mounted police for what he considered dangerous use of their horses to marshal a crowd including many children.
It was only when his case came up in court that I learned he was a baronet. Of course my character reference wasn't needed.
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>> It was only when his case came up in court that I learned he was
>> a baronet. Of course my character reference wasn't needed.
Assumption by the court of good character based on his title, or did he have someone "better" than you lined up as a character reference?
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>> Assumption by the court of good character based on his title, or did he have someone "better" than you lined up as a character reference?
Who knows? Both perhaps. I doubt if he had much of a police record, if any. In cases like that, where the offence is a very minor one, magistrates sometimes treat miscreants who look or sound like toffs with avuncular indulgence, and sometimes try to 'make an example of them'. Sometimes both at once: "I find it shocking that someone with your advantages in life should... obstruct officers of the law executing their duty... blah blah... seven days, suspended."
But I wasn't in court so I don't know what was said there. I think his fine was a bit on the stiff side, but only a bit.
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>> But I wasn't in court so I don't know what was said there. I think
>> his fine was a bit on the stiff side, but only a bit.
>>
As you were neither present when the offence was committed, nor in court when the evidence was presented, you have absolutely no idea, have you?
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>> As you were neither present when the offence was committed, nor in court when the evidence was presented, you have absolutely no idea, have you?
No idea of what?
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>> >> As you were neither present when the offence was committed, nor in court when
>> the evidence was presented, you have absolutely no idea, have you?
>>
>> No idea of what?
>>
No idea of whether the fine was "a bit stiff", or not!
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I do have an idea: a couple of hundred quid I think, definitely on the stiff side. But you are right in a way: I don't know for sure because I wasn't there and had no reason to register every detail.
I have a pretty good idea of the offence too. Fairly well oiled and enjoying the high-pressure, high-volume ambiance in the carnival streets, my acquaintance came upon a place where the fuzz were jostling a crowd with horses (my own observation over many years would suggest that such jostling may have been for poor reasons or even none at all). Seeing small terrified nippers in the crowd - does one need to remind people that crowds in turmoil are physically dangerous especially to the small and weak? - he had been overcome with ruling-class indignation and stepped forward to give the fuzz a mouthful. His arrest by uniforms on foot had followed.
My own feeling is that he came out of it well for a man drunk at the time. A likeable geezer.
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>> he had
>> been overcome with ruling-class indignation and stepped forward to give the fuzz a mouthful.
Did he go on to become Chief Whip in later life?
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>> Did he go on to become Chief Whip in later life?
You must be joking Alanovic. But it's a boring, head-banging joke. Bigoted and a bit silly.
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>> a boring, head-banging joke. Bigoted and a bit silly.
I see some fool has given me a scowl gong. Perhaps if I had seen yr knee-jerk post later in the day I would have been a bit less disagreeable about it Alanovic. I do understand that the phrase 'ruling class indignation' was risky from that angle. What it means in the context is the absence of working-class fear or tremulous, confused middle-class 'respect for the law' in the face of thuggish behaviour by the old bill. It doesn't mean childish vainglorious stuff, calling people plebs and so on. Geddit?
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AC, I was making a joke. That's all. I did not award you the gong.
Please don't "Geddit" me again. I "Geddit" perfectly well.
Carry on.
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>> Carry on.
OK, OK! I was surprised that you seemed not to, and a bit jumpy over having risked that phrase, that's all. And I didn't imagine for a moment that the gong was from you. Cringing apologies for the geddit.
Sometimes when one addresses people here the post is intended for others too. Some, not you actually, bristle at the very mention of a toff-type person, which would be quite wrong in this case. The guy - dead now - was extremely nice.
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>> more deserving than say Trevor MacDonald, who only read the news, .............
He did much more than that.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trevor_McDonald#Other_work_and_media_appearances
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>> He did much more than that.
>> en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trevor_McDonald#Other_work_and_media_appearances
>>
And when you read the "much more than that", its not "much more" really, is it. Lets not beat about the bush, he was given a knighthood because he was the first black newsreader and it was deemed "culturally correct" to be so awarded.
Which is a pity, I don't suppose anyone took into account how difficult it was for him to get to where he did. And there is the tale of such gongs. Often to the wrong people for the wrong reasons, sometimes to the right people for the wrong reasons and frequently never to the right people for the right reasons.
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>>
>> >> he was given a knighthood because he was
>> the first black newsreader
>>
Don't "first to do something" normally get an award?
First to climb Everest?
First to make penicillin?
First 4-minute mile?
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"Don't "first to do something" normally get an award?"
Did the first white newsreader get an award?
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>>
>> Did the first white newsreader get an award?
>>
Yes. Stewart Hibberd, MBE.
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"Yes. Stewart Hibberd, MBE."
Mmm - not a knighthood then? Or is this simply grade inflation as in GCSEs, A-levels etc?
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Sir Alisatair Burnett was also knighted. Like Sir Trevor the citation was services to journalism.
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"Sir Alisatair Burnett was also knighted. Like Sir Trevor the citation was services to journalism.
I suppose that makes things nice and even, then?
It takes no more to read the news than it takes for me to do the announcing at our local football club; whilst they merely read from an auto cue, I have to write my own script! Ah yes, pronouncing all those foreign names - I'm on my own there as well!
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>> It takes no more to read the news than it takes for me to do
>> the announcing at our local football club; whilst they merely read from an auto cue,
>> I have to write my own script! Ah yes, pronouncing all those foreign names -
>> I'm on my own there as well!
IIRC the ITN newscasters originally wrote their own scripts and were from a more journalisitc background than the early BBC TV newsreaders who were more like announcers.
There's a long chain of knighted journalists on both TV (Day, Dimbleby etc) and press (English, Evans etc, Rees Mogg got a Life Peerage).
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He was no Day, Dimbleby or Rees Mog, in fact he was a fairly average news reader and a not very prolific journo. His journalistic skills and achievements in no way justified elevation above his peers.
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>> Sir Alisatair Burnett was also knighted.
Could have been for services to the distilling industry since he drank like a fish starting, I read today in the comic, at 3 in the afternoon with a tumbler of whiskers. In fact it was only colour TV that gave him away, to those like me who noticed his increasingly purple, swollen and pimply nose. He never appeared ratted with slurred speech or gross errors like some others. Chapeau!
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>>increasingly purple, swollen and pimply nose
It's a skin condition... perhaps aggravated by alcohol!
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhinophyma
Plenty more pics out there if you need ideas for homemade Xmas Greetings cards...
rhinophyma.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/rhinophyma_3_061207.jpg
Last edited by: Lygonos on Wed 14 Nov 12 at 16:22
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>> he drank like a fish starting, I read today in the comic, at 3 in the afternoon with a tumbler
>> of whiskers.
What was that? Hair of the dog?
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>> Often to the wrong people for the wrong reasons, sometimes to the right people for the wrong reasons and frequently never to the right people for the right reasons.
'Frequently never', eh? You should have been a philosopher Zero.
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" You should have been a philosopher Zero. "
Almost certainly an existentialist.
" there are elements of transience and permanence in existential philosophy that manifest themselves lucidly in the industrialized world. These elements are certainly present in the hobby of trainspotting. For example, when a train passes a trainspotter, there is a unique self-reflective response that occurs in which the trainspotter realizes the transient nature of his existence on Earth. But through the use of a camera, the trainspotter is able to create an aura of permanence from his particular vantage point. So, whereas the train represents the impersonal passing of time, the trainspotter signifies the personal supplier of meaning to the event. And at bottom, existential philosophy is only meaningful if one takes it personally."
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Thank you CGN. I couldn't have put it nearly as well myself.
:o}
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Knighthoods, CBE's , OBE'S and MBE'S - Lygonos
