***** This thread is now closed, please CLICK HERE to go to Volume 7 *****
Line them up here !
Last edited by: VxFan on Sat 10 Nov 12 at 00:08
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A most interesting serious of essays by prolific blogger Anna Racoon, under the title of Past Lives and Present Misgivings parts 1 to 7....www.annaraccoon.com/
Obviously should you click on her site the most recent post, 7, will appear first, but i urge you to work through them in order posted, post one isn't concerning Savile but should be read to provide you with an insight into this interesting woman...who's childhood background has remarkable similarities to SWMBO.
If you have a few hours to spare i thoroughly recommend reading these lengthy posts if you have an interest in the Savile case, they are well written and revealing...i have followed her writings for some years prior to this and find her insightful and unafraid of speaking the truth as she sees it.
She was a boarder/inmate at the 'school' at the time of the original Newsnight allegations, her recollections might be of interest as they don't confirm the present hysteria.
Last edited by: R.P. on Mon 5 Nov 12 at 21:40
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Astonishing and very well written. Many thanks for pointing it out. I bet the newspapers / media will not pick up on her news!
There was a story and book written about a home that that is very near where I grew up as a child. The book claimed ritual abuse by the catholic nuns that ran the place. The time frame is the late 1960's to early 1970's
I occasionally see a charlady who lived and worked at the home at the time of the alleged abuses and she did say that the nuns were very strict but never did anything untoward.
Allegations sell papers and how can you defend yourself against something that someone says you did from 20 years ago?
Last edited by: zippy on Tue 6 Nov 12 at 00:57
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That's riveting stuff gb. La Raccoon is most impressive. Blood and guts all over the floor. Chapeau!
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Thanks gb.
The most disturbing thing about all that is the lack of interest from 'investigative' journalists in any facts that don't fit the existing story, despite several of the reported recollections of some witnesses already being shown to be made up.
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Anna Raccoons posts are interesting IMO when you consider the whole industry that seems to have sprung up around the Savile affair.
Ignoring of facts that don't suit, forged letter supposedly from the Police (thats serious stuff) documentary evidence of dates and people and places that appears to be ignored and untouchable, and quite likely i suspect by now missing if not it needs seizing by police sharpish for safe keeing.
Its dynamite and yes some journalists involved seem not too keen to follow up on quite possibly damning evidence if it doesn't fit the, to me, hysterical lynching...all this could easily have come out whilst Savile was still alive and he would have had the right to defend himself or not, timing too convenient?
I expect the old bill have been given a nudge in her direction.
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Why spoil a good story with the truth !
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I don't think it's the truth that is the problem so much as not wanting to backtrack from all the pious, ersatz disgust they have revelled in peddling for the last few weeks.
It was beginning to look to me as if JS's odious exploits had been exaggerated - the conspiracy was just getting too big, too many people who knew and said nothing to be credible.
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>> A most interesting serious of essays by prolific blogger Anna Racoon, under the title of
>> Past Lives and Present Misgivings parts 1 to 7....www.annaraccoon.com/
Most interesting gb.
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A nephew of Jimmy Savile may have died of heartbreak following abuse allegations against the former DJ and TV presenter, according to his family.
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-20210837
ps, love the title, btw.
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His brother worked for Radio Wales - his favourite programme format was to broadcast from the Children's wards of Hospitals.
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I've just noticed that police sirens make the Jimmy Saville noise when they switch from shrieking noise to the other tone.
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Peter Sutcliffe claims that Jimmy Savile is innocent. tinyurl.com/bb4u4yg
I'm even more convinced now that I'm right in not jumping on the bandwagon, and not pouring vitriol onto a person I've never even met like a lot of people are doing.
Last edited by: L'escargot on Tue 6 Nov 12 at 14:48
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With friends like that... :)
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The Sun article also included ......
Forensic psychologist Dr Ian Stephen said he believed Savile was capable of murder as his sick cravings grew. He added: “It is possible that he upped the game.”
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LOL so he's probably a murderer too? Where will it all end...
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Looooook!! Its gone off the boil a bit, it needs constant hyping up to sell papers.
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>> Peter Sutcliffe claims that Jimmy Savile is innocent. tinyurl.com/bb4u4yg
From the Sun, linked above - no comment!
One of Savile’s abuse victims yesterday urged police to investigate links between the pair — and whether the DJ had killed.
The victim said: “Sutcliffe and Savile are two peas in a pod.
“It’s quite fitting the only person to stick up for Savile is Sutcliffe. They deserve each other.
“The police now need to seriously investigate the possibility that Jimmy Savile was a child killer.”
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Yes, I understand he had access to weapons of mass destruction as well.
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he was probably good friends with Brady.
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"he was probably good friends with Brady."
and had links to Pol Pot and Stalin.
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>> and had links to Pol Pot and Stalin.
>>
Joseph Stalin and the Soviet Union armed forces helped us to win WWII.
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>> >> and had links to Pol Pot and Stalin.
>> >>
>>
>> Joseph Stalin and the Soviet Union armed forces helped us to win WWII.
I think they were helping themselves actually! And they did get some ships, tanks, planes* etc from Britain and a great many more from the US.
They certainly did take the brunt of Hitler's war machine but I don't think it was for love of Britain or the US.
*(which Stalin complained were out of date, badly crated and faulty - the Russians also crashed about 15 Hurricanes on take off because they rebuffed British offers of training support and the pilots didn't remove the parking brakes).
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How did you come up with Ian Brady's name and link it to this?
Last edited by: rtj70 on Wed 7 Nov 12 at 00:16
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>> How did you come up with Ian Brady's name and link it to this?
Was Brady not in Broadmoor when JS was involved there? That was what I inferred from the suggestion.
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So we will now all speculate I guess?
Last edited by: rtj70 on Wed 7 Nov 12 at 00:30
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>> So we will now all speculate I guess?
We were being comically ironic.
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What does this thread have to do with well made but expensive suits? :-)
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...of the track variety...
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It has everything to do with expensive suits, but they are of the legal variety.
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Suits - Savile Row (part of my little play on words)
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Was also featured on 8 Out Of 10 Cats last week. Not sure who got there first :-)
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Oh, I don;t watch it, but they probably did chronologically - I write my own material ! :-)
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>Burn him! Burn him!
Couldn't they have made it a family event and done it on Monday. Fireworks and sparklers for the kids maybe?
BBC Special?
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>> www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-20243847
>>
>> Burn him! Burn him!
>>
IIRC he has a concrete overcoat so it must be dig him out chip him out first
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This article suggests that paedophilia is a mental disorder. www.minddisorders.com/Ob-Ps/Pedophilia.html Most people view it as being something which is practised purely out of personal choice.
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>> mental disorder.
or
>> personal choice.
>>
Or neither.
Isn't sexual orientation now regarded as innate, something that cannot be changed, cannot be "cured"?
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>> Isn't sexual orientation now regarded as innate, something that cannot be changed, cannot be
>> "cured"?
>>
If that is the case, why is Jimmy Savile being reviled for being something that he couldn't change?
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>> >> Isn't sexual orientation now regarded as innate, something that cannot be changed, cannot be
>> >> "cured"?
>> >>
>>
>> If that is the case, why is Jimmy Savile being reviled for being something that
>> he couldn't change?
>>
In the eyes of the law, is it not less of a question of what his innate preferences were, than what he did? Two different things.
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"In the eyes of the law, is it not less of a question of what his innate preferences were, than what he did?"
Not quite.
To use the defence of insanity you have to prove that "at the time of committing the act, the party accused was labouring under such a defect of reason, from disease of the mind, as not to know the nature and quality of the act he was doing, or, if he did know it, that he did not know he was doing what was wrong." i.e the famous McNaugton rules.
The very fact that a person attempted to hide the crime for which he is charged generally proves that he knew it was wrong and therefore also proves his legal sanity,
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>> The very fact that a person attempted to hide the crime for which he is
>> charged generally proves that he knew it was wrong and therefore also proves his legal
>> sanity,
The number of people claiming to have witnessed Jimmy Savile committing acts of "sexual abuse" suggests that he didn't attempt to hide what he was doing.
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It doesn't work in reverse Mr Snail. The fact that you don't hide your criminal acts doesn't prove you are insane.
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>> It doesn't work in reverse Mr Snail. The fact that you don't hide your criminal
>> acts doesn't prove you are insane.
Not sure how insanity got into this. Paedophila* is categorised as mental disorder. If one has sexual feelings about children but don't act on them no offence is committed. Criminality occurs when the feelings manifest themselves as actions against minors.
The fact that actions were criminally manifested is not evidence of insanity.
*As pointed out previously the majority of the allegations against Savile involve teenage girls at an age where they're likley to be post puberty. This is not paedophilia but a different mental condition, the principles are however the same.
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>> *As pointed out previously the majority of the allegations against Savile involve teenage girls at
>> an age where they're likley to be post puberty. This is not paedophilia but a
>> different mental condition, the principles are however the same.
>>
In France the age of consent is 15, in Spain it is thirteen and many other countries vary somewhere between the two. In Britain I believe it was 12 till possibly the beginning of the last century, but that would need checking and I haven't time as Mrs RR is nagging me to walk the dog who hasn't been out all day.
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The Criminal Law Amendment Act 1885 raised the age of consent to 16 (from 13 which it had been since 1875). Previous to that it was 12
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That's an interestng avenue, of course, L'es - crime and choice. It's often terribly easy to say "oh well, he's a drug addict and he made a choice to be so, I've no sympathy" or whatever, but choice isn't always that simple. A bit like depression, and well meaning people saying "oh, just pull yourself together".
Of course, much crime IS a wilful choice; it's not black and white by any means, but there's a reason that expressions like "there but for the grace of God" are in the language.
We also have this cultural aversion to anything sexual to do with children, but of course other cultures have different views (the Saudis, not that I'd want to be anything like them, still legally allow girls to be married at ten. Some Southern states of the USA until relatively recent times allowed girls to be married at 13. Historically, our own royals were sometimes married off at five or six, and nature of course, is just about breeding and that becomes possible very early).
We quickly get into what is wrong and what is right, of course, and that's a whole new ballgame for debate. Is "right" just what most people say it is, or is there something deeper? Oh, here comes a "higher being", and now the debate gets fiercer.
None of this, I have to add, makes me pro Savile or anything to do with kids!
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This Sutcliffe tape to the Sun,was it in a Geordie accent?
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Jimmy Savill mentally ill? Don't think so he liked messing about with young girls.
Sutcliffe a sadist on a power trip.
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Philip Scholfield said he produced his list of names after a few minutes searching the internet, well i can't find any! Can anyone point me in the right direction ?
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What names do you want on the net? I can get them on a google hit for you in an hour.
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An hour? That's a lot of searching.
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No I mean, you choose the name, and I will get it on to the net and linked with the saville case.
And that, is just about the way its working out now.
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Ah right I see, well let's see, the Queen Mother?
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...in fact: aangirfan.blogspot.co.uk/2012/10/savile-royalty-barak-clinton.html
:o
Last edited by: Focusless on Thu 8 Nov 12 at 20:19
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I picked her on the basis, seemingly naively, as it would be one of the last names linked to it. In all honesty I wouldn't be surprised to see any name now.
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>> I picked her on the basis, seemingly naively, as it would be one of the
>> last names linked to it.
AFAIK she never denied having close links with Savile. Draw your own conclusions.
:)
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Does anyone else feel like they're living through some sort of parallel universe shift, i'll be checking for reds under the bed tonight before turning in.
Hysteria rules.
Last edited by: gordonbennet on Thu 8 Nov 12 at 20:00
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>> be checking for reds under the bed tonight before turning in.
>>
Well you can't be too careful ;)
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Those Russian women are supposed to be hot stuff gord, and the Ukrainian ones are even better.
Let me know howl you get on will ya - I could do with a rub down.
:}
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I am really surprised at the apparent double standards seen on this thread.
The most adoring protective fathers, the ones who were disgusted over the Megan Stammers case, not to mention those who seek to protect their own children from every thing.
I now see some of the same people still trivializing what happened to other peoples children a few decades ago.
Trying to find excuses, reasons and making it justifiable.
Let’s try this scenario….
Take yourself back in time to the early 70’s and imagine yourself as a young, married couple with a handicapped daughter. She needed an operation in a famous hospital.
Of course, you knew the only worry was if the operation would be successful or not.
The Hospital had an excellent reputation, you knew she’d be safe in there, cared for by dedicated nurses and doctors.
Now let’s go forward 40 years, you as loving parents have died, but your daughter has grown into a confident woman. She finally has the courage to admit to what happened all those years ago. She couldn’t admit it before, she felt that it was her fault, that she’d ‘asked’ for it. She felt dirty, and ashamed, she did try and mention it in the Hospital but no-one believed her, so she began to believe them. She couldn't talk to her parents about anything like that..they would be shocked. It wasn't done in those days.
Through the years times have changed though and what was known as a ‘dirty old man’ having a grope, has now become a paedophile and the grope is known as ‘inappropriately touching’. It’s become acceptable to talk about these things but her parents are long gone now.
If you were those parents and if you were still here would you be finding excuses, trivialising what happened to your daughter all those years ago?
Or, would you be angry that you allowed her to be in a position where she had to experience this sort of thing. Would you feel guilty?
It’s alright though if it happened to someone else, and not your child, isn’t it?
Pat
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You're right to suggest I wouldn't have wanted JS around my children, of course. But I've searched this thread for trivialising and I can't find any.
The people making false claims are not helping at all - all it does is throw into doubt all other accounts.
It's such a muddied pool now that I'm not sure it will ever be possible to be certain of the truth. It seems at least some of the coincident accounts that so impressed the investigating police officer may come from people who have effectively conspired on Facebook. Some of those may of course be genuine too but their own claims will still be undermined if some of the "corroborating" ones turn out to be provably false.
As I've said before, I find it easier to believe that JS did these things than that so many people supposedly watched him inflicting abuse and did nothing. Funny how everybody knew, now that the story is out there.
Now we have "senior politicians" being linked.
Not trivial at all. I think we are seeing witch hunts now and it disgusts me.
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>> Not trivial at all. I think we are seeing witch hunts now
As you say, this is now no longer about the genuine victims, but more about how sensational it can be made. I like to read a red top or three a few times a week for the entertainment value, but t the moment I really cant be bothered because they are full of S! (and thats not S for Saville)
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>> but t the moment I really
>> cant be bothered because they are full of S! (and thats not S for Saville)
What's new?
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>>
>>
>> Through the years times have changed though and what was known as a ‘dirty old
>> man’ having a grope, has now become a paedophile and the grope is known as
>> ‘inappropriately touching’. It’s become acceptable to talk about these things but her parents are long
>> gone now.
>>
>> If you were those parents and if you were still here would you be finding
>> excuses, trivialising what happened
>>
That's a very good point Pat, but hard to answer.
I can speak from my own point of view. Dirty old men were not uncommon at boys schools in the 60s, and I can remember one or two such masters. What they did would have put them in prison now, but at the time everyone, and I mean everyone, chose not to know and chose not to find their behaviour reprehensible if they did know.
The boys sniggered and warned each other, and passed jokes round. Were we traumatised? Did it blight our subsequent emotional development? Hardly - the purpose of a public school was to stunt it's inmates' emotional development after all.
But the past was indeed another country, and they really did do and think things differently then. I'd hate to see old Mr ***** dragged out of decrepit retirement, if he is still alive, and flung in gaol, but by today's standards he would deserve it.
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>>It’s alright though if it happened to someone else, and not your child, isn’t it?
What, like its alright as long as its not your child who is refused medical treatment in another country because you didn't protect her from what she was getting into?
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That is totally out of context Mark, below the belt and I expect better from you.
However, if you want to fight dirty, I'm game.
Pat
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On second thoughts, you really are turning into a grumpy old man.
Pat
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>>you really are turning into a grumpy old man.
Turning into? I was born one. Just getting older is all.
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Why is it below the belt?
Why is it fighting dirty?
Do you mean disagreeing with some of your statements or pointing to other statements of your own?
And I don't care whether or not you can fight dirty, whatever that is exactly. Do whatever you think is right.
>>It’s alright though if it happened to someone else, and not your child, isn’t it?
That seems to be a pretty strong statement. And at odds with your thread reference the treament of a foreign child in England.
>>She chose to take the risk and knew what the risk was
When talking about a young girl, I forget, 11 years old or something?
So why do you expect one young girl to be able to cope with such a nasty part of the world but the other not to?
Do you not stand by your earlier thread then? Or is it that children can be expected to cope with death, terrorism and oppression and know what they're getting into but another young girl to be terrorised by a single dirty old man?
Your messages, or at least the thought processes behind them, don't seem to align.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Fri 9 Nov 12 at 17:30
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That is because you all preferred to misunderstand ny stance about the young lady from Pakistan and throw your hands up in horror no matter how many times I tried to explain.
My opinion was, and still is, is that she should have been allowed to stay there and international funding (via charities) been sought for her expenses, travel and treatment.
The very quick offer we, as a country made, was a political one and not a compassionate one.
As I said, it has absolutely nothing to do with those on this thread who prefer not to think of their feelings had they have been a parent 40 years ago and 'allowed' their child to have been subject to abuse.
Double standards.
Pat
Last edited by: pda on Fri 9 Nov 12 at 17:43
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Be happy while you're living, for you're a long time dead. Here's some Jimmy Savile jokes for those who want to be happy ............. www.tetraplegicliving.com/jimmy-saville-jokes
NB only link if you find tasteless jokes funny. Smokie
Last edited by: smokie on Fri 9 Nov 12 at 11:32
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>> Through the years times have changed though and what was known as a ‘dirty old
>> man’ having a grope, has now become a paedophile and the grope is known as
>> ‘inappropriately touching’.
You have put it very accurately, Pat. And that's why the past should be left alone with itself. You cannot apply today's social mores to yesterday.
Otherwise everybody who was a parent in the 1950s and let their children play in the street unsupervised should be investigated by social services today. That's a really sensible idea.
There is no way that Savile would behave today like he did. For a start he wouldn't have a chance to; for a second he would know the consequences. Society didn't regard it as wrong in the same sort of way.
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>> Otherwise everybody who was a parent in the 1950s and let their children play in
>> the street unsupervised should be investigated by social services today. That's a really sensible idea.
Are you saying that I shouldn't have been allowed to play in the street unsupervised?
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Social morals where not that different in the past.Children should still be able to play unsupervised outside.The children who live in my area do.We the neighbours keep a eye on them if the parents are not there.Children from a home in Wales where taken to be sexually abused in London.The chap was interviewed today.If he is to be believed this was a paedophile ring who up to now got away with it.
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>> Social morals where not that different in the past.Children should still be able to play unsupervised outside.The children who live in my area do.We the neighbours keep a eye on them if the parents are not there.
Quite right Dutchman. People didn't turn a blind eye to dirty old men in the past. Indeed if caught they were more likely to get a savage unofficial kicking or worse than they are today.
What has changed is the language, and the general tone and intensity of media coverage of everything. So our society these days is obsessed with certain rare forms of sex crime, exaggerating their numbers wildly, and goes on and on about the endless categories of 'victim', including disgusting criminals who receive unofficial punishments or aren't allowed to watch Strictly Come Dancing in their cells.
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Too true. I went to what some might regard as a fairly "posh" private school during the 60s and early 70s.
There were commonplace incidences of what would now be regarded as gratuitous violence on pupils ( way beyond even the then very liberal attitudes to such things ), regular acts of cruelty on weaker and in particular unhealthy boys. I remember one lad being forced to take part in a cross country run because for one week only he had forgotten his rolling excuse note which detailed his heart condition. What's more he was forced to do it in bare feet and his underwear in sub-zero temperatures because he didn't possess any PE kit.
We had some masters who were clearly regularly drunk in the afternoons and one in particular who became irrationally violent when he was and another who openly drank from the neck of a half bottle of whisky while teaching maths.
One of the sports teachers was notorious for hanging around the changing rooms when boys were getting undressed, openly staring at their nakedness, making lewd remarks and pretend jokingly grabbing at their privates.
An art teacher, who was later imprisoned for violently assaulting his wife, used to make pupils eat unused paint at the end of lessons and in a rage would throw heavy objects like vases and blackboard dusters at pupils he took a dislike to.
He missed me once with a wooden blackboard duster when I ducked and the duster carried on to smash a glass cabinet with a stuffed Tawny Owl on a branch in it. The Owl spun round on it's perch and finished up hanging upside down. This was impossible to ignore and I got 12 of the belt for laughing.
Indeed they were different times.
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I must have been deprived: I had a happy childhood generally free from adult violence.
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>> I must have been deprived: I had a happy childhood generally free from adult violence.
>>
I had a happy childhood, by and large, despite the occasional adult violence.
That's the point. It was normal, accepted, and we accepted it.
It wouldn't be acceptable now, but we are different people.
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Pleased for you madf.
Didn't do mmmmmme any lasting harm of cccccccourse...
:-)
We used to get beaten up on the way to and from school too by other kids because we were wearing the uniform of one of the better known private schools. Spat on, pushed and shoved, hit, threatened and things stolen etc. One became more or less used to it. One of the reasons I started cycling to and from school in fact. You could outrun the would be assailants on a bike.
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Your experiences are very similar to mine, HDB. Route to school and everything. Mine went up to and including 1983, things got better at my comprehensive, the sadistic teachers had mostly been weeded out or left by then, apart from one maths teacher (for it was so often they) who managed to break a boys ribs by throwing him against a heavy duty radiator for walking down the wrong side of a corridor.
Things must have changed very shortly after that , I imagine.
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>> We used to get beaten up on the way to and from school too by other kids because we were wearing the uniform of one of the better known private schools.
Yes, being identified as posh in any way can be risky on the streets when you are a child or adolescent. But at two of the schools I went to the danger was as much from the B and C streams in the school as from kids at other schools. Fortunately there were tough elements in the A stream too - I wasn't one of them - so one wasn't entirely without support.
A blackboard rubber flung hard is quite a dangerous missile, and I remember plenty of those, also flung books, bits of chalk and so on, and clips over the ear. But to tell the truth most of those were fairly gentle pats on the back of the head in my case at least, although I do remember certain recalcitrant, resistant boys getting more of it than other people. Sometimes they were just rather thick and the way they were singled out seemed a bit pointless and cruel.
The whole world was a bit sadistic in the aftermath of WW2, and it seemed normal to be caned for frivolity, shameless idleness with homework/prep, cheek, inappropriate jokes, etc. But unlike some here I can honestly say that I was never treated in an outlandishly sadistic way and I never saw anyone else so treated. Clearly I had the luck of the devil.
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I did get beaten up by older kids when I moved North in Scotland. I learned to punch assailants in the face so after two years was left alone following assailants getting really bloody noses.
( I managed to permanently rearrange my last opponent's nose...after which I was left severely alone..)
Last edited by: VxFan on Fri 23 Nov 12 at 01:09
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It's odd how everyone seems to have been bullied or beaten up at school but nobody every seems to remember doing a bit of bullying themselves.
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>> It's odd how everyone seems to have been bullied or beaten up at school but
>> nobody every seems to remember doing a bit of bullying themselves.
>>
I was never bullied or beaten up at school. I don't remember anyone being bullied.
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>> It's odd how everyone seems to have been bullied or beaten up at school but nobody every seems to remember doing a bit of bullying themselves.
Want some do you, CGN? I'd watch it if I were you (menacing scowl).
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Yeay! Fight Fight Fight !
:-)
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You can forget the fact I'm a girl too, I know how to fight dirty!
Pat
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I can remember being slapped round the face and called an Irish cur by a female teacher. When I told my old man he just said, "Silly old b*tch".
Another woman I remember told a class that whenever there was trouble in the playground it was always "Those little black boys who were involved".
That would go down a bundle today.
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They have found the courage late in life CG, and now do it on here.
Pat
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>> They have found the courage late in life CG, and now do it on here.
Yeah, yeah, that's it darling, quite right dear... look, any chance of a cup of tea while we're talking here? Kitchen's out the back, well's not too far but better take a torch because the steps are dodgy. Watch out because the well parapet's a bit dodgy too.
Ten minutes, all right? We're parched sitting here rabbiting. On your bike girl.
(Evil smirk)
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I've heard all the put downs before Lud:)
Still come out fighting, that's why I'm called The Flying Witch at work!
Pat
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Just trying to make you feel at home Pat.
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Thanks Lud, I really miss the lads at this time of year but I'm training on Monday so need my claws sharpening a bit!
Pat
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>> It's odd how everyone seems to have been bullied or beaten up at school but
>> nobody every seems to remember doing a bit of bullying themselves.
>>
It makes me wonder if some of those people who remember nothing untoward actually had no experiences or were just plainly unobservant,aloof or uninvolved.
I remember from a mixed Grammar school in early 60s
-cruel and repeated psychological bullying of several 'weaker' members of the class
-masters capable of violent behaviour (which could easily have caused injury) with board dusters, chalk, and on one occasion threatening behaviour with the metal hinge mechanism from a broken desk
-cruel treatment (but generally with humour) in the gym andon the cross country course
-the well known 'shower patrolling' staff
- certainly alcoholic tendencies of a couple of members of staff
As a member of the academic 'elite', the threat from the lower streams was always present, and real.
Last edited by: pmh on Fri 9 Nov 12 at 17:42
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Oh to be fair, I think the point is that times were different and we didn't feel especially persecuted despite our reflective modern day horror at the memories.
It's the owl I felt sorry for.
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PE teachers were the worst, too stupid to teach proper subjects and generally sadistically inclined. Even the other teachers didn't seem to like them.
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Some of you may wonder at my annoyance at the comments on this thread.
There is a reason why, which I have thought long and hard about but have decided to share with you.
In the late 60’s/early 70’s I was a sales rep for a large firm. I had been with them for 9 years and had progressed very quickly from van driver to van sales and for the previous 5 years to sales Rep. It was in the plant and machinery field in Leicestershire so I was working alongside male reps and sales managers.
Among my customers was the National Coal Board, Leicester City Transport etc, so there was a prestigious customer base with annual contracts to renew and maintain.
I took pride in the fact I looked after my customers and gave them good old customer services. I could be woken with a phone call in the middle of the night and be told a piece of machinery on the coal face had failed but I could reel off a bearing number, know if we had it in stock and be quite happy to drive 12 miles into the depot to unlock and supply them with it.
This meant I was successful and was offered the Area Sales managers post, unheard of for a female, in that field.
One thing worried me…..
A number of my customers thought I should allow them to ‘grope’ me to get that elusive contract, that big order and keep my sales figures good.
I just wanted to be excellent at the job I chose to do and it was a never ending cause for concern to me.
Was I really good at my job, or was it the thought in my customers minds that one day, I wouldn’t be able to sidestep their hands/suggestions/demands, and they would succeed.
I turned this dilemma over and over while deciding whether to go for the promotion, but knew it would only get worse.
I spoke to my Area Manager about it, but his answer was ‘Just keep the customer happy Pat’
The Managing Director was the worst one, so I don’t know why I expected anything else really.
I decided to leave and become a lorry driver. I loved every minute of it and never had to worry about unwanted advances, I could tell them to Bog Off if I wanted to.
But I always wonder what my life would have been like had I have stayed and put up with the inevitable.
I wouldn’t have worked 80 hours per week, I would never have worked so physically hard but then again, I would never have met the sort of mates I could rely upon to support me through thick and thin either.
To those finding the courage to speak out, I have one thing to say to them…..I admire you and wish I had done the same before I left, but no-one would have believed me.
Pat
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I'm not a woman, so I don't necessarily know how it would feel to have to deal with unwanted advances. It happened to me once, from a woman, but it’s a lot easier to deal with that way around I imagine. I also think men and women feel differently about it.
Sometimes we are presented with choices, and sometimes they're choices which we don't like, or which are unfair.
You dealt with it in a way that worked for you and that's all you could do at the time. For what it’s worth, I think it’s a grubby choice and one can only hope that those men one day felt guilty. Although I would guess probably not.
Nonetheless, many years later, you are still able to become annoyed about it, and perhaps other feelings as well, who knows.
I think you need to understand that, and work out how to let it go and move on. That's not to say forget it, but they inappropriately affected your life once, don't let them affect your mood or emotions again now.
As an aside I also have driven a truck, for Debenhams, and a van, for Black & Decker. Although I don't think I ever drove an 80hr week, I doubt I ever drove 2/3rds of that. I've also worked in business, in an office, in sales, and in various roles. There are just as many good people in them all, just as many good friends in all, and just as many idiots in everywhere.
People are just people, good, bad and indifferent. Whatever they do.
Directly concerning the people who now speak out; some have the courage, some want money, and some wanted to be quiet but didn't have the courage to resist those who told them to speak.
Far better to admire everybody who consciously follows their own path, not simply those who speak loudly.
So, I admire your courage in handling the situation, moving on and getting on, just as much in the course you chose, as I would have done if you had chosen to shout from the rooftops.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Fri 9 Nov 12 at 18:51
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Thanks for understanding Mark
It's humph'd fault...I knew I could have been where he is now:)
Off to serve dinner.
Pat
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Savile Row Volume 6. - -
