A report has concluded that the policy of culling gang leaders following the inner city riots was probably counter-productive.
Apparentlyt this policy created a territorial vacuum, and thugs moved in from surrounding areas and then fought to establish control, over areas that previously had a stable populations. Breakdown of criminal codes of behaviour led to a "marked increase" in violence.
www.itn.co.uk/UK/59938/gang-leader-arrests-after-riots-blamed-for-anarchy
A badger said that this misguided policy was based on ignorance and showed the folly of bowing to pressure groups with vested interests.
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The problem lies, I think, with each side of the debate able to call on conflicting independent studies. Another issue is that the general public holds the view hat badgers are sweet, fluffy, friendly creatures when they're actually astonishing aggressive.
I grew up on a farm (albeit not cattle so never affected by TB), and witnessed two attacks by badgers. One that killed a pregnant mare; and another on a hedgehog which the badger disembowelled and ate alive. They are powerful creatures and have been allowed to breed without check.
It's ironic that the same protesters don't complain about mink being culled; or squirrels. The same probably drink milk in blissful ignorance of where it comes from and the 50% of calves slaughtered each year. Buy Danish bacon? The cruelty the pigs suffer is unimaginable.
I've suspected for a long time that farmers have been quietly picking them off or burying sets and it doesn't seem to have had any effect, so for that reason I don't think there's any point to a cull. But the general public needs to sit back and take a more measured view of the subject which isn't driven by the Wind in the Willows.
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You just need to vaccinate the cattle. Only EU law prevents it, for no good reason it seems.
I have loads of friends in the country, not sure they care that a badger disembowels a hedgehog, thats nature and thats life in the country.
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>>You just need to vaccinate the cattle.
I understand the problem is we can't tell the difference between vaccinated cattle and those with TB. Yes, we have records of vaccinated beasts, but can't tell if they're protected.
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"You just need to vaccinate the cattle. Only EU law prevents it, for no good reason it seems"
Well there is a good reason. It's an economic one. Cattle vaccination against TB is not allowed in EU countries as the BCG vaccination interferes with the tuberculin skin test, which is recognised as the primary diagnostic test for TB in cattle.
Current vaccines make healthy cows appear infected, which blocks their overseas trade or sale.
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>> I have loads of friends in the country, not sure they care that a badger
>> disembowels a hedgehog, thats nature and thats life in the country.
>>
I think you'd find that mist people who live in the country are opposed to needless suffering. Vaccination is not 100% effective and blocks the normal TB reactor test, so there's no way we could export meat abroad. Whether that's a bad thing or not, I don't know.
Get rid of badgers, reintroduce wolves or beavers, or something. I've always had a fondness for giraffes, how about the odd herd of those?
Bear in mind that badgers can outrun humans... everyone in towns thought Mr Fox was great until they started attacking babies on warm summer evenings.
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>> Bear in mind that badgers can outrun humans ..............
I've no doubt that ferrets can as well!
;-)
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>> I've always had a fondness for giraffes
Hope your car has a sunroof ;)
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>> I've always had a fondness for giraffes
They keep opening new restaurants round here.
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>> They keep opening new restaurants round here.
They've got some neck to do that.
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>> I've always had a fondness for giraffes, ...........
I've always had a fondess for beavers!
;-)
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>>I've always had a fondess for beavers!
Careful L'es, could be misinterpreted: scouts.org.uk/beavers/
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>> >>I've always had a fondess for beavers!
>>
Nice beaver.
tinyurl.com/dy74hw
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>>
>> >> I have loads of friends in the country, not sure they care that a
>> badger
>> >> disembowels a hedgehog, thats nature and thats life in the country.
>> >>
>>
>> I think you'd find that mist people who live in the country are opposed to
>> needless suffering.
Which is why they hunt, shoot, trap, gas, poison, bury sets and dump half dead badgers on the side of the road then? Honestly people in the country don't give a rats ass if a badger eats or rips to shreds any other wildlife as long they (the people in the country) don't loose any money.
>>Vaccination is not 100% effective and blocks the normal TB reactor test,ing or not,
The vaccine is as effective as the patch test. Defra is pushing for acceptance of vaccination Europe wide, and the betting is it will probably come into EU wide acceptance.
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>> Which is why they hunt, shoot, trap, gas, poison, bury sets and dump half dead
>> badgers on the side of the road then? Honestly people in the country don't give
>> a rats ass if a badger eats or rips to shreds any other wildlife as
>> long they (the people in the country) don't loose any money.
>>
You again! You're not too far of the mark though Zeddy.
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"Another issue is that some badgers believe that humans are friendly creatures when they're actually astonishing aggressive."
"They are powerful creatures and have been allowed to breed without check", said Mr Brock
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True and these humans infest the planet go to war breed without regulation.
Prince Philip said When I die,I want to come back as a virus and kill people.(makes sense.)
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According to the BBC programme "Prehistoric Autopsy" (The episode where they re-built Homo-Sapiens) some of the skulls found showed signs of Disease, which they seemed convinced was Tuberculosis. These remains were from the time when "Man" first started herding and domesticating Cattle, and in parts of the world where Badgers did not live.
Therefore, it stands to reason that TB was transmitted to Man via Bovine originally, and now, since we abolished TB once in this country years ago, it also stands to reason that TB has been transmitted back to the Bovines or Badgers by Man, probably infected Immigrants being let loose in this country without proper health checks. Badgers are just being used by Farmers and Mp`s as "Scapegoats" to divert attention away from the real cause. TB would still be rife even if they extincted every Badger in GB.
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Little bit of a leap in logic there, all sorts of things could have and did happen in the last few thousand years.
There is very good scientific evidence that TB now exists in cattle largely because of infection from badgers, how effective a cull would be is more open to doubt.
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Not, apparently, what they've found in Ireland.
edit: Refers to Devonite.
Last edited by: neiltoo on Tue 30 Oct 12 at 11:49
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I'm not a vet (though I may as well be some days) but if a coo is anything like a human, relying on the tuberculin test will lead to lots of disease-free cattle being smoked, and lots of diseased animals remaining in circulation because they give a weak response.
Similarly if the vaccine is anything like BCG, it will protect most, but not all cattle from TB.
Let the statisticians decide which of these imperfect scenarios is least imperfect.
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>> Let the statisticians decide which of these imperfect scenarios is least imperfect.
Indeed, except it is the money men who will decide.
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>> it also stands to reason that TB has been transmitted back to the Bovines or Badgers by Man, probably infected Immigrants being let loose in this country without proper health checks
Nah it was Jimmy Savile wot did it.
Stands to reason.
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>> According to the BBC programme "Prehistoric Autopsy" (The episode where they re-built Homo-Sapiens) some of
>> the skulls found showed signs of Disease, which they seemed convinced was Tuberculosis.
TB in cattle has been a problem for years. Read James Heriot
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TB in cattle has been a problem for years.
Exactly! - just as the Programme suggested! - Man became infected from Bovines when he first started Husbanding them.
Now which evolved first? the Bovines or the Badgers, there lies the real culprit!
Also, once we had Eradicated TB from this Country, who or what re-introduced it? - I dont think it was imports of Cattle or Badgers.
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>> Also, once we had Eradicated TB from this Country, who or what re-introduced it? -
>> I dont think it was imports of Cattle or Badgers.
>>
Not sure cattle TB was ever eradicated.
Human infection was controlled from the fifties largely by BGC being given at age 11/12 by schools medical service and by antiobiotic treatment of those fallling victim.
Inevitably antibiotic resistant strains have appeared and mass international travel is a vector for transmission from places where TB is still rife.
But I don't buy the 'blame immigrants' line I suspect is implicit in your posting.
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>>I suspect is implicit in your posting.
Not at all, It`s simply a suggestion that Immigrants are the most likely cause, as alot of them come from TB rife areas, and unlike livestock, do not have to spend 6 months in Quarantine.
I will stick my neck out now and state that even if every single Badger and infected beast were eradicated now, within 5yrs TB in Cattle would be as rife as it is today, what would they blame and eradicate next, Stoats, Weasels, Dogs, Cats?
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@devonite,
I'm sure you are right about badgers. Too many other ways infection can be transferred between cattle.
As to people, it's international travel rather than the nebulous 'immigrants' that is the factor.
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>
>> Also, once we had Eradicated TB from this Country, who or what re-introduced it? -
>> I dont think it was imports of Cattle or Badgers.
>>
Politicians.
Time for a new cull.
:-)
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who or what re-introduced it
Politicians
You wouldn`t be meaning like "Myxy" or even the last outbreak of "Foot and Mouth" ;-)
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Like almost all formerly-endemic infectious diseases in the UK, TB was reduced (never eradicated) by public health improvements.
Not having families of 8 malnourished people living in a 2 room house was a good start.
Not routinely spitting infected phlegm on the pavement helped a lot.
Pasteurising milk virtually ended gastrointestinal TB.
Doctors and medicines helped a bit too.
TB is indeed far more common amongst immigrants and travellers particularly from the Indian subcontinent, and sub-Saharan Africa.
Consider it karma for us virtually annihilating the native inhabitants of North America with influenza, syphillis, smallpox, etc.
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>> www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-20154178
>>
>> Naughty Badgers.
You can't blame 'em. There's plenty of worms in those places.
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"Like almost all formerly-endemic infectious diseases in the UK, TB was reduced (never eradicated) by public health improvements."
I think it is probably fair to say that statistically virtually all the improvement in health and increase in lifespan are due to a combination of better sanitation and public health measures such as pasteurisation, better diet, vaccination and the discovery of antibiotics.
The massive expenditure on high-tech modern medicine and surgery has statistically had a comparatively small effect on our health.
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I'm not sure about the better diet Norwich.Some of the rubbish what is put in our foods makes me wonder.Modern medicine is big bussiness keep taking the tablets.
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>>Some of the rubbish what is put in our foods makes me wonder<<
You don't actually have to eat the rubbish though Dutchie, you do have a choice you know :)
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I don't think you would like to swap your current diet for what was available to the working classes 100 years ago. Of course there is junk food available if you want it but decent food is now available to everyone at comparatively low cost.
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Badger Cull - Fursty Ferret
