Yep, I'll remember it in about a fortnight's time.
What's with all the poppies, it's not even November yet?
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The Poppy appeal was launched a couple of days ago.
I had a stroke of good fortune...I found last year's poppy in the garage !
Ted
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I had a stroke of good fortune...I found last year's poppy in the garage !
Mine is a big official plastic version that is now re-installed on the grill of my car.
Having grown up a couple of miles from the Richmond poppy factory I have always supported the cause. ( The replacement for The Star and Garter Home is being at present being built nether us in Surbiton.)
I send a cheque to ensure gift aid.
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Ted, can you record the service for me again please?
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I bought one of the dinky enamelled lapel badge ones and shall probably lose it by next year!
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lost the back bit to mine.
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Timpson might sell you one
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Dave, Yes, will do but remind me a bit nearer then I can set the engine going in advance.
Young middle age memory loss !
Ted
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'I had a stroke of good fortune...I found last year's poppy in the garage !'
That is good luck. I couldn't find mine and had to make another one.
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We have a family one, its been passed down from father to son.
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....father to son to father to son to car boot sale to Zero.
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I will have the sense of humour failure.
It is sad to realise that you think the poppy appeal is a joke and no one has mentioned making a donation to keep their everlasting poppies "valid".
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>> It is sad to realise that you think the poppy appeal is a joke
>>and no one has mentioned making a donation to keep their everlasting poppies "valid".
>>
I am donating ( in the most beneficial way ) re my car poppy - see my earlier posting.
I inherited my poppy when I bought the car earlier this year with the poppy attached.
The seller was a widow with military connections. ( her husband died of normal causes) .
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My apologies henry, you were swamped in the sea of ignorance.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Tue 30 Oct 12 at 09:35
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The local British legion have just had a PR disaster.
A colonel, who collects every year, has claimed the British legion's the most important charity in the country and demands a free parking space for when he's collecting.
Seems he's put many people off (particularly animal lovers).
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He sounds like a pompous prat. I accept that some people are animal lovers, each to their own priorities.
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>>It is sad to realise that you think the poppy appeal is a joke and no one has mentioned making a donation to keep their everlasting poppies "valid".
www.car4play.com/forum/post/index.htm?v=e&t=12142&m=271284
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"It is sad to realise that you think the poppy appeal is a joke "
Well I think its a bit sad that you can't take a bit of good natured humour. I suspect that most on here do give to the poppy appeal each year and indeed support many other causes.
They just don't feel the need to make a public statement.
I must admit I am becoming a bit tired of the tyranny of obligatory poppy wearing and condemnation of those who for whatever reason choose not too.
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>> I must admit I am becoming a bit tired of the tyranny...
Therein lies the irony. Were it not for the sacrifices made - which are remembered by the symbol of the poppy - we would live in a tyranny.
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The poppy should not be worn until 1st November.
The last couple of days I've seen poppy sellers whilst on my way to work. No doubt they will have disappeared by the time I actually need one.
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>> Were it not for the sacrifices made - which are remembered
>> by the symbol of the poppy - we would live in a tyranny ................
............. and probably be speaking German.
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>>... and probably be speaking German.
And using Deutschmarks. Hang on, that's what Tony Blair wanted us to do...
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>> >> Were it not for the sacrifices made - which are remembered
>> by the symbol of the poppy - we would live in a tyranny.
>>
I don't think it has ever been seriously argued that had we lost the First World War we would have ended up living under a tyranny.
For all the kaiser's early boast that he would be eating his next Christmas dinner in Buckingham Palace, I don't think invasion of Britain was one of the German war aims - in fact I'm not sure anyone actually knew what anyone's war aims were.
Whatever Britain gained from the Great War, I don't think the sacrifices were worth it.
Obvious WWII was a different kettle of fish. But if we are talking about poppy symbolism then it's the trench war on the western front in WWI that is relevant.
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>>But if we are talking about poppy symbolism then it's the trench war on the western front in WWI that is relevant.
Not so. The poppy is a symbol of the deaths of our servicemen and women. WW1 and after.
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>> >
>>
>> Not so. The poppy is a symbol of the deaths of our servicemen and women.
>> WW1 and after.
>>
But its origin lies in the observation that poppies sprang up in the recently churned up soil after the land had been devastated by bombardment. Life resurging again after death, as it were. That is the symbolism.
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With hindsight, would losing the 2nd War have really made much difference to us? - After all we are virtually ruled by Brussels and the EU, and the Germans don`t seem to be doing too badly! - not much sign of living under a tyranny to my eyes. We would have adapted to Germanic way of life the same way we adapt to other ways if we repatriate.
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>> With hindsight, would losing the 2nd War have really made much difference to us? -
Well, it would have made a bit of a difference if you were Jewish, a homosexual, or a gypsy. Or a turbulent priest. Or black. or mentally handicapped. Or disabled. Or in any way critical of the government.
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Absolutely Ian not just to us but to the French, Belgians and many others.
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>>With hindsight, would losing the 2nd War have really made much difference to us?
I cannot answer that question. However it would certainly have made a difference to countless millions of Germans who welcomed the British and Americans when they were liberated.
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>> With hindsight, would losing the 2nd War have really made much difference to us? -
In the process of losing WWII, Great Britain would have been more extensively bombed and would have had to suffer the effects of invasion by the Germans ~ street by street fighting, cruelty to the population, extreme shortage of food, disruption of public utilities etc etc.
That would have made a tremendous difference to us ~ and I'm including myself in "us".
Last edited by: L'escargot on Wed 31 Oct 12 at 07:19
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Possible, although I think there was probably enough Nazi sympathisers in positions of influence to have engineered some form of capitulation if the Germans had got a foothold in the UK.
For sure it would not have been in the best interests of some of the population!, but others would have prospered.
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I have nothing but respect and admiration for those who have defended or continue to defend our country and or civilised values no matter what their era or what uniform they wear or not. However, the question I always wrestle with is was it always necessary? By that I do not question the validity of the actions of the brave participants but the validity of the conflict being entered into in the first place by the politicans of the day. Of course any reasonable person can see that there are occasions when it would have been quite wrong maybe to stand back and do nothing but others, perhaps, or at least debatably, when in fact it would.
These matters are naturally majorly complex but there are examples, perhaps too specific, but for the purpose of debate, how about Switzerland? That country has managed, rightly or wrongly, not to enter into war with any other since the very early 19th century. Of course it can be argued all day as to why but the end result is not a country ruled by tyrants, or indeed one which is seen as weak, or an unpleasant place to live, or economic instability...
They do though have a military capability and are more than able to mount at least civil defence but they simply choose not to enter into internatinal conflict. Maybe some others, including ourselves could at least consider why that shouldn't be our attitude too?
Seems to me the culpability for the historical mass loss of life does not entiterly lie with those whom we chose ( or our political leaders chose anyway ) to regard as the enemy. Some perhaps small but maybe even up to equal part of that blame goes to our own pooror misguided or self advancing political judgements.
Maybe. I don't profess to know. But I can't help at least pondering on it.
I'll be buying a poppy though. I can't begin to say how much I respect those who did lay down their lives for our freedoms. I just wish they hadn't had to and in some cases I'm pretty sure they didn't.
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>>the question I always wrestle with is was it always necessary? By that I do not question the validity of the actions of the brave participants but the validity of the conflict being entered into in the first place by the politicans of the day.>>
I know a young man who recently lost a leg in Afghanistan and nobody has yet given me a satisfactory reason why we are in that country.
>>for the purpose of debate, how about Switzerland? That country has managed, rightly or wrongly, not to enter into war with any other since the very early 19th century. Of course
it can be argued all day as to why but the end result is not a country ruled by tyrants, or indeed one which is seen as weak, or an> unpleasant place to live, or economic instability...>>
Do we know for a fact, that if Germany had won WW1 or WW2, they wouldn't have decided to invade Switzerland, or any of the other countries that took the neutral option?
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>>
>> Do we know for a fact, that if Germany had won WW1 or WW2, they
>> wouldn't have decided to invade Switzerland, or any of the other countries that took the
>> neutral option?
>>
I'm sure I have read somewhere quite recently that the nazis did indeed have a plan for seizing Switzerland, if it had suited their purposes.
But there was no need to. The Swiss carefully trimmed their policy so as to just make invasion unnecessary, and by leaving them neutral the germans were able to benefit better from the under the counter financial services the Swiss rendered them. As the war progressed the Swiss carefully realigned themselves, and ended up without having antagonised the allies - indeed then continued to provide similar services to the allies during the cold war.
Rather similar to the Swedes. They too were definitely slanted towards the Germans to start with, which suited the Germans because they got their iron ore without too much trouble.
Again, as the balance of war changed, the Swedes gradually realigned their neutrality slightly more to the allied side.
It often suits both sides in a conflict to have a neutral buffer they can both surrepticiously do business with. Or as Lenin put it, if Switzerland didn't exist it would be necessary to invent it in order to leave a yardstick for measuring the real price of everything after the successful completion of the world revolution.
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Humph, the difference is partly that Switzerland can square it with their consciences (for right or wrong) to sit back and let territorial greed, with one country invading several others, happen, not to mention the genocide which accompanied it. We, in general, cannot and in 1914 and 1939 did not, and I believe were right not to.
Whether we could and should have done since is perhaps more debatable.
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You can debate about wars forever nobody is a winner only the people who manipulate it.
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And the industries, Ford and GM did very nicely in Germany during the war.
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>> Humph, the difference is partly that Switzerland can square it with their consciences (for right
>> or wrong) to sit back and let territorial greed, with one country invading several others,
>> happen, not to mention the genocide which accompanied it. We, in general, cannot and in
>> 1914 and 1939 did not, and I believe were right not to.
>>
>> Whether we could and should have done since is perhaps more debatable.
The Swiss are actually quite reprehensible, the cockroaches of Europe, who deliberately grew fat on ill gotten gains, others misfortune and misery during wars Money had everything to do with it, not a desire to be neutral.
As far as WW2 goes, We had to fight it, we had no moral choice.. Alas however it was the UK, and France who contributed to the causes behind WW2 by the stupid 1914-18 war. That had no morality behind it.
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"As far as WW2 goes, We had to fight it, we had no moral choice.. Alas however it was the UK, and France who contributed to the causes behind WW2 by the stupid 1914-18 war. That had no morality behind it."
That is so right !
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It started off with molarity - we went to war to fight for the underdog (Belgium), it was absolutly right and proper that we went - the 1919 peace had much more to do with French arrogance, revenge and egotism than anything else.
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>> It started off with molarity -
A war fought over chemistry - did I miss something ??
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Phosgene ? (he said hopelessly)
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Molarity?
Dental condition is it?
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>> Phosgene ? (he said hopelessly)
My bad; SOH developed over thirty years 'married' to a science teacher.
dl.clackamas.edu/ch105-04/molarity.htm
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Tue 30 Oct 12 at 20:42
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>> It started off with molarity - we went to war to fight for the underdog
>> (Belgium), it was absolutly right and proper that we went -
It was superpowers fighting for dominance, nothing more or less. Bullies fighting it out in the world playground at the expense of the poor population used as cannon fodder,
>>the 1919 peace had
>> much more to do with French arrogance, revenge and egotism than anything else.
Indeed
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>> I will have the sense of humour failure.
And thats exactly what you have had.
Of course I will be buying a poppy, if nothing more than to remember my great grandfather who perished on the Somme.
Honesly ON, ....
(the insult has been deleted)
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>> Honesly ON, ....
>>
>>
>> (the insult has been deleted)
>>
I can handle, and have been called, worse than anything you can get past the swear filter and moderators.
It is not about me, I have put my health and life on the line for the likes of you and was fortunate enough to get away with it. It is about some peoples frivolous attitude to the poppy appeal.
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Ok stop being a sanctimonious git and get a life. I am pretty sure that most people didnt fight the wars to get a poppy.
My bloodline did its bit in both wars, and paid the ultimate price, to enable us to have the freedom to laugh and joke about it. And I shall remember them and thank them for that in the appropriate manner at the appropriate time.
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My bloodline did its bit in both wars,
My father was in WW1 but he died early when I was young so I have no info from him.
My mothers ( foster) brother was lost at sea month after I was born
An uncle was in a protected job. Another uncle was a Bevan boy.
The story of the ship my uncle was on I found on line and have added to.
I was more than happy to share the information I had rather than it just stay hidden in my hands.
An unusual end to the events that I can smile at.
( see That Fateful Night)
www.yourtotalevent.com/events/galatea.htm
A lot of relatives have contacted the site with information about a crew member so there is a lot of interest out there
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Anyway, these days it's more about our young people dying and being hurt in other foreign fields as we speak
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>> Anyway, these days it's more about our young people dying and being hurt in other
>> foreign fields as we speak
>>
Indeed which particularly galling and tragic because they shouldn't b...... be there.
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>> >> Anyway, these days it's more about our young people dying and being hurt in
>> other
>> >> foreign fields as we speak
>> >>
>>
>> Indeed which particularly galling and tragic because they shouldn't b...... be there.
>>
That I agree with!
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Hopefully the appeal will still remain relevant across all wars, rather than one or just a couple. Although that's where most people might want the money to be aimed at. I'm not knocking any particular charity, just the RBL has such a wide scope is one of it's strengths.
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>> Hopefully the appeal will still remain relevant across all wars, rather than one or just
>> a couple. Although that's where most people might want the money to be aimed at.
Indeed, its a pity that the day, and the RBL, is so attached (in the minds of the public) to the events of WW1 and WW2. I fear the whole rememberance thing will slowly die as the veterans and the memories of immediate families also die.
There is a whole generation backing up behind us who have no concept or interest of the great wars.
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I rather give to Help for Heroes personally - seems more focused on Afghanistan and Iraq
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>> I rather give to Help for Heroes personally - seems more focused on Afghanistan and
>> Iraq
>>
>>
Which is why I give to RBL; because they support ALL our serving and retired servicemen and women. For all the good work H4H does I have reservations about a services charity which is selective about its conflicts.
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I'm a bit more hopefully, I feel with the success of H4H that there is more interest in conflict and understanding (politics aside) of more recents conflicts. It might well change and becomes less WW1/2, although not forgotten, more thoughts aimed to those casualties of the OP Telic/Herrick.
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The politics are irrelevant - it's people that matter....IYKWIM
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Not to politicians, who inevitably decide which war we fight next.
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Its still the young and their families that carry the legacies long after the politicians have become nobodies.
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>> There is a whole generation backing up behind us who have no concept or interest
>> of the great wars.
Spot on I fear. I was born in 59, the war was only over for 14 years. It was part of the adolescence or early adulthood of my parents, their siblings and contemporaries. The First War was their parent's era. Few family gatherings were held without memories being exchanged.
Even into the eighties 'where were you in the war' was a conversational gambit between colleagues then approaching retirement. My maternal Uncle was a pilot on transports, probably Liberators, in 44/45. Around 1980, on a course in London, he invited me out for a pie and a pint in west end. Turned up with a colleague who'd accepted one of those invitations experience tells you not to but I learned more about him that night than I'd ever have heard from his sister!! Sadly, he died at 60 in 1983 before I'd really forged an adult relationship with him.
Nowadays my kids, children of older parents who themselves had older parents, are unusual in even having grandparents/great aunts who lived through the war.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Tue 30 Oct 12 at 21:25
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I'm not sure you need to have family in conflicts to have an interest in the wars, although it helps create an interest I'm sure. With few people knowing anyone in the forces the interest might be lessened across the country, although some might say it's a good thing. Fewer big wars and all that.
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>> Fewer big wars and all that.
>>
Most wars are about resources, just wait for the middle east to go pear shaped and oil supplies dry up if you want a big war.
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I meant in terms of large numbers of people in the miltary in this country, meaning more would know someone in uniform.
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>> just wait for the middle east to go pear shaped and oil supplies dry up if you want a big war.
Wars usually have 2 (or more) opposing sides.
When the middle east goes pop there'll be one side (us and out allies of vested interest) ensuring supplies of oil continue while propping up puppet regimes of "democratic" governments.
Hang on... that's happening right now ;-)
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>> Of course I will be buying a poppy,
I won't be.
I will however, as in past years, be donating.
Allowing the poppy to be 'sold' to someone else, thus reducing the overheads by one poppy. ( a token gesture I know)
If more did that, then of course the charity would have more money to use.
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>> >>
>> Allowing the poppy to be 'sold' to someone else, thus reducing the overheads by one
>> poppy. ( a token gesture I know)
>> If more did that, then of course the charity would have more money to use.
>>
Isn't the point of the poppy to remind and encourage others to remember - ie be persuaded to buy poppies too?
It's an ironic converse to the mass public pressure that originally started the whole thing - pinning white feathers on (male) civilians who weren't in uniform and looked as if they might have forgotten that their country needed them.
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Tis a great pity that good men like these keep coming back from Afghanistan in wooden overcoats.
Damn you Bush, and damn you Blair - if you're Christians, then I'm a Dutchman.
www.thisiscornwall.co.uk/Giant-poppy-trek-highlights-appeal/story-17210242-detail/story.html
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And women Dog, don't forget that.
Do you remember the stretcher-cases lurching back
With dying eyes and lolling heads—those ashen-gray
Masks of the lads who once were keen and kind and gay?
Have you forgotten yet?...
Look up, and swear by the slain of the war that you'll never forget!
That could have been written yesterday..
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>>And women Dog, don't forget that<<
Yes, I did mean to add that R.P.
>>Look up, and swear by the slain of the war that you'll never forget<<
But the past is just the same,—and War's a game....
What have we learnt this past 100 years, will man ever learn I wonder, life can be nasty, brutish and short enough as it is and a single life lost through War is one too many IMO.
Last edited by: VxFan on Fri 23 Nov 12 at 01:15
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"and a single life lost through War is one too many IMO."
And if only every one shared that opinion we could all live happily ever after. But they don't.
Pale Ebenezer thought it wrong to fight.
But Roaring Bill, who killed him, thought it right.
Hilaire Belloc
Last edited by: CGNorwich on Thu 1 Nov 12 at 22:36
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I watched this film recently and thought have we really moved on that much over the last 80,000 years?
Sure, we've got the iPhone and Plasma TV's now, and we can put a man on a quite nearby satellite.
Maybe we just require another 80,000 years or so, to iron out our rough edges, like.
The film isn't in English, but they didn't say an awful lot, back then, apparently.
Caution: scenes of rape and murder www.youtube.com/watch?v=5bsjJzG-vEE
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quest_for_Fire_(film)
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I've just bought (from my local British Legion member) a Rembrance Day Poppy Lapel Pin like this ............ tinyurl.com/bmzfamb
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>> I've just bought (from my local British Legion member) a Rembrance Day Poppy Lapel Pin
I grabbed a dozen poppies today from my local MOTH (Memorable Order of Tin Hats) member, and have distributed them round the office to those who served/know/care.
I'm happy to point out the significance of 'why are you wearing a flower?' to those who don't know.
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So far, so good.
Collected a few notes - NOT canvassed for, I may add - for the charity.
Took the bus to work today, and some older chap asked where I'd got the poppy from. I had an A3 envelope in my pocket with a few in, so gave him one. Next thing, he put R20 (ie price of a pint) into the envelope.
Damn right, and damn fine, I say!
Collecting another dozen tomorrow.
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SWMBO wants a poppy for her beloved polo ( grill mounted version ) but i explained to her that the car is german ( built by boys from Brazil ) and she's Italian so i cant allow it , am i being unfair?
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"WW1's Tunnels of Death: The Big Dig" tonight Channel 5 8pm (or 5+1 9pm, freeview 44).
First instalment of a two-part programme documenting the work of archaeologists over the course of eight months as they explore First World War battlefields near the village of Messines in Belgium. Accompanied by military historians Peter Doyle and Paul Reed and specialists in bomb disposal and ordnance clearance, the team led by Simon Verdegem uncovers well-preserved trenches, bunkers and tunnels from the Western Front. Against the background of the dig, the story is revealed of how the stalemate was finally broken by the detonation of huge mines underneath the German lines, creating the biggest explosion the world had ever seen and killing thousands in the process.
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There was something along these lines last year, and they built a huge ww1 flamethrower that would have cooked anything within about half a mile!
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Plumer was one of the better British Generals of WW1. In fact there were some remarkably able Divisional Officers throughout the conflict. In a lot of cases they were the ones who were ill-led by their Political "masters" in particular the so called "Welsh Wizard" Lloyd George. In many ways the British Army of 1914 -18 was one of the best led, best equipped that has ever taken to any field of conflict - especially since. WW1 was a forgotten victory - a victory later squandered in Versailles by the French. It was a war we had to fight- we had no choice. Our liaison with the Franch post 1915 was a shambles - hardly the fault of the troops. In The Great War Part 2 (1940) it was even worse.
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I remember ............... having to take a gas mask with me everywhere I went in case the Germans dropped mustard gas bombs on us.
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You must be a lot older than you look then L'es.
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Remember. - bathtub tom
