The voting forms for the upcoming election of PCC for my area dropped on the Doormat. Thought I would check out the candidates, and I am horrified to find there is a political element.
Quote - the labour candidate!
As Surrey Police and Crime Commissioner I’ll be a strong independent voice for local people; opposing these savage Coalition cuts and privatisation plans, – plans which even the police say will irreparably damage the service. For too long Surrey has had fewer police than counties of comparable size.
Keeping Surrey safe and secure will be my top priority, not ideologically-driven political experiments – “outsourcing” or repeating the G4S Olympics fiasco – as this Government proposes.
Last edited by: Zero on Fri 26 Oct 12 at 20:46
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Normally I'm scathing of people who don't vote but I'm increasingly tempted to ignore it, especially with the political element. About time we had “none of the above" on the form. I just don't want my attendance to be recorded as any kind of enthusiasm for the police commissioner election.
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Any attempt to spread democracy is weakened by the need for political parties to poke their snouts in.
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They'd manage to bring their petty political point scoring to the egg and spoon race at a primary school sports day.
Not voting is not an option despite the fact they really don't deserve the effort, for it matters not if only 9 people voted in the whole region and 9 million didn't, so long as one of the twerps gets more votes, he she or it will get the job, so you are forced to vote in order for there to be a spattering of hopefully sensibly considered votes.
Daresay by the time the votes are counted that in most cases the electorate will simply have followed their political allegiances, and who can blame them?
How many downright lies have our elected leaders told to get votes, which they've fudged round, ignored and reversed time and time again once elected (cast iron guarantee from the unelected PM, but next time we'll definately have a referendum), why should anyone in the public eye be believed any more.
Whilst the theory sounds fine, the practical application of modern UK style democracy is fast becoming a sick joke.
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Add in PFI and it's an expensive sick joke.
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>> Normally I'm scathing of people who don't vote but I'm increasingly tempted to ignore it,
>> especially with the political element. About time we had “none of the above" on the
>> form. I just don't want my attendance to be recorded as any kind of enthusiasm
>> for the police commissioner election.
>
I'm feeling same FF. Only election I've not voted in since age 18 was GE83; moving house shares meant I fell off the register.
No inspiration from any of the candidates for Northants. The tory will wing it anyway.
I'm also sceptical of the principle. Political control of the police by one elected bigwig is really not what we need; much better that ir be influenced by a commitee of individuals.
Perhaps I'll just spoil my paper.
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>>Perhaps I'll just spoil my paper.
Maybe that's how 0.2% of banknotes have detectable faecal matter on them (cross-thread drift)
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Unfortunately the candidates for the PCC job in Nottinghamshire do not include one standing under the banner of our preferred party.
There are two independents, so we will vote for one of those.
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pretty pleased there is no national front police commissioner.
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Roger,
You have two votes, first and second choice.
The system for these elections is the same one the Gov said was to difficult to undersstand in parliamentary elections.
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One common sense candidate in this area. One of the others is the son of a rather dreadful former MP - there was a whiff of a scandal about him once. Both my votes will go to the Indies. My first choice is an ex-bobby, a QC and a High Court Judge - so should have something about him.
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This scheme looks to me an ill-starred piece of fiddling around, justifiable because it is aping US practice. In the US local elections can change the mayor, police chief, dog-catcher, fire brigade and all other local officials along party political lines. No doubt works perfectly well in most places but we've all seen those movies about corrupt redneck towns with enforcement by psychopathic yokels in pickup trucks, and there's no smoke without fire eh?
The police force in this country has always been essentially centralised and answerable to the Home Office. That system poses a potential threat of a totalitarian slide, which the US system doesn't. But it hasn't happened yet. I like what I'm used to. I don't want to listen to senior coppers pretending to be caring feminists. It's embarrassing. And voters simply don't know enough about these people's track records to know what they are voting for. The Home Office has their files at hand. If it chooses the bad guy instead of the good one, at least it's not our fault.
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>> My first choice is an ex-bobby,
>> a QC and a High Court Judge - so should have something about him.
>>
Anything to keep the "Professional" politicians out of it. I suspect they will just see it as another money making opportunity.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Sat 27 Oct 12 at 14:37
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I want a 'none of the above' option.
I've looked at our candidates:
one didn't make it as they got their deposit in too late.
another hasn't had any interviews or published any manifesto.
a third was recently arrested along with fifty EDL members.
The remainder are even less inspiring.
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I have had a leaflet saying the elections are happening and a voting card. One candidate is an independent and has been Chief Exec of the County Council, another Independent who has been working in Police Comms for 12 years, a Conservative who has broad brush ambitions but doesn't say when he does for a living or mention his background and a Labour candidate who has been a Tribunal president.
Some relevance but nobody very obviously the right person, that I can detect.
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UKIP guy was campaigning in Towcester this afternoon.
Having looked at the list of candidates the Lib Dem is a bloke called Paul Varnsverry. He's the LA political rep on the rail user group but I'd never clocked his party affiliation. Seems very competent and worked well with both the Labour MP who chaired the group until 2010 and her Tory successor.
He'll get one of my votes.
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Well surprise surprise, we have two candidates:
Welsh Labour, who thinks she will be able to resist the Tory cuts to the police budget, and
Welsh Consevative, who will spend the money efficiently and thinks fighting crime is a good thing.
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.
Last edited by: Armel Coussine on Sat 27 Oct 12 at 17:27
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We got some leaflet the other day bout this, that appeared to be a generic one aimed at everyone in the country. But we've not had anything else so I have no idea whether we even have any candidates, never mind who they are or what they stand for. But we did get polling cards so something must be happening I suppose. It's a mystery.
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Up until now a Chief Constable could ignore party politics. Not for much longer. What a sorry state of affairs.
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Put your postcode in here to find out who your candidates are:
www.choosemypcc.org.uk/
I did, the labour candidate obviously has a serious political point to make that PCCs should not exist, so if elected, she promises to do nothing...
My neighbour and I both reckon the turnout will be monumentally low, I've gone for 20% and he thinks it'll be worse at 16.5%
Last edited by: Slidingpillar on Sat 27 Oct 12 at 22:43
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"My neighbour and I both reckon the turnout will be monumentally low, I've gone for 20% and he thinks it'll be worse at 16.5%"
I wonder if it will be even lower. Are we running a book on this, anyone?
I note one of my candidates is keen on "...using innovative new ways to engage with the public." He won't get my vote, for a start.
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Gadget reckons the % turnout will struggle into double figures, especially if it rains. Personally I can't see why the politicos have attached themselves to this at all. It goes against my principles to purposefully not vote, but I'm sorely tempted on this occasion.
>> the electorate will simply have followed their political allegiances
I agree with neither our C nor L candidates' positions. The only other option here, an Independent, 30-years+ experienced "community leader" from the Asian quarter in Leicester, seems the one with the most common sense by far to me. I hope that sufficiently greater numbers of his supporters are exercised to vote than of the other two twits.
And here's me saying I don't get involved in the political stuff.
Last edited by: Dave_TDCi on Sat 27 Oct 12 at 23:48
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"Innovative ways to engage with the public'. The very sentence supposes that the public want to 'engage', whatever that means. What do you all think? What level of engagement do you want from the police and what do you expect them to be doing?
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Thanks for the website, Slidingpillar, as no information has reached me from the poll organisers. I see I have four choices. I like the Tory's idea to install village coppers but the Independent has the best statement so I will vote for him.
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>> What level of engagement do you want from the police and what do you expect them to be doing?
I want them to engage with the sort of crime that bothers people and makes their lives burdensome, and not waste time and effort on soft targets or victimless 'crimes'. I want them to be reasonably courteous in their dealings with the public, which in the nature of things often take place in a fraught, emotional context, and not too criminal in the ways they cover for one another and close ranks.
In other words I want them to carry on as now. No one's perfect of course and bad apples and bad moments are to be found everywhere, but I don't think a lot of carp about engaging is going to improve things much. No way is a body employed to keep order by force if necessary and have prolonged, intimate dealings with criminals going to end up a bunch of innocent choirboys. To pretend it can is embarrassing and subversive. The fuzz, on the whole, support society, not just the powers that be. They need to be free of political interference, not constitutionally entangled with it.
Perhaps I am seeing old bill through rose-tinted spectacles and they are too bad to be saved. But I like to think not.
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I wonder what percentage of Mr average Joe public has any contact with the police apart from the occasional speeding ticket. They probably have their regular customers who they have regular contact with and don't bother the vast majority of us. I can't remember the last time I spoke to a policeman and I am not completely senile yet.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Sun 28 Oct 12 at 07:46
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As usual AC verbalises the thoughts of many of us...
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What level of engagement do you want from the police and what do you expect them to be doing?
Nothing - I don't want to engage with them only when I want their help. This is the hangover from the daftness of New Labour and the idiots that were put in charge of the Home Office. Polcie should be in the background of our every day lives.
As to putting coppers back in villages what a load of rose-tinted, vote grabbing, nonsensical, all our yesterdays, whimsical basket fronted bicycle nonsense - clearly out of touch with reality or smoking something from his attic.
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>> In other words I want them to carry on as now.
>>
Like the Wiltshire bobbies?
"The IPCC is investigating failures in the case of murdered Becky Godden. Taxi driver Christopher Halliwell couldn’t be tried for the crime, even though he confessed, as detectives had denied him his rights under the Police and Criminal Evidence Act"
and
"A man was arrested, handcuffed and put in a cell overnight after filming Wiltshire police officers apparently having a coffee break in a bar while on duty.
Jake Coplestone, 20, claims that when police handed back his iPhone containing the footage, the handset had been tampered with repeatedly in a crude attempt to crack the password "
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Tell me about it John H. I tried to photograph some lines of coppers in riot gear, who had deployed themselves fussily and unnecessarily on my block at carnival many years ago, as they quite often did. They shone spotlights into the camera and eventually started to chase me about. I couldn't tell whether the cheers coming from the neighbours were for me or the coppers.
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And you think Crime Commissioners will have any impact on investigation processes. That's the preserve of the Home Office.
"Like the Wiltshire bobbies?
"The IPCC is investigating failures in the case of murdered Becky Godden. Taxi driver Christopher Halliwell couldn’t be tried for the crime, even though he confessed, as detectives had denied him his rights under the Police and Criminal Evidence Act"
And if he had been taken straight to Custody and had legal representation would the two bodies have been found? Whilst PACE protects the rights of detainees it is also a charter for the villain and can really hamper practical aspect of investigations. Villains do not conform to the rules.
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>> And if he had been taken straight to Custody and had legal representation would the
>> two bodies have been found? Whilst PACE protects the rights of detainees it is also
>> a charter for the villain and can really hamper practical aspect of investigations. Villains do
>> not conform to the rules.
Bodies - So no lives were saved by breaking the rules, and he got away with it?
We know villains don't conform to rules, thats why we have them, and sticking to them gives us the moral right to condemn and try them.
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If life was so simple.
Last edited by: Fullchat on Sun 28 Oct 12 at 15:09
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>> "The IPCC is investigating failures in the case of murdered Becky Godden. Taxi driver Christopher
>> Halliwell couldn’t be tried for the crime, even though he confessed, as detectives had denied
>> him his rights under the Police and Criminal Evidence Act"
>>
>> And if he had been taken straight to Custody and had legal representation would the
>> two bodies have been found? Whilst PACE protects the rights of detainees it is also
>> a charter for the villain and can really hamper practical aspect of investigations. Villains do
>> not conform to the rules.
>>
The senior detective made the right call IMO. He managed to get the suspect to show him the sites of two bodies.
The Judge made the call that the evidence was inadmissible, due to the breach of PACE. That sounds about right as well...maybe.
What isn't right is the detective has been suspended and investigated over it. That is ridiculous. He made a judgement call, at the time, to recover two bodies, people who had been murdered. With one of them, no one knew she had been murdered, she was on an old missing persons list. If the senior detective wants to make a judgement call on whether something will or will not be admissible in court later, but is important enough to risk, then he/she should be able to.
All that will happen now, is SIO's will fail to stick their necks out and will be more likely to comply with SOP's (Standard Operating Procedures) rigidly. That's a bad thing.
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Maybe not much of a consollation but at least the family got a body back which is more than Winnie Johnson did. Lived and died in turmoil.
And as for the SIO being suspended that where politics raises its ugly head which is where we get back to Police and Crime Commissioners.
Last edited by: Fullchat on Sun 28 Oct 12 at 16:47
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>> Maybe not much of a consollation but at least the family got a body back
And the bloke walked free? Your right thats no consolation at all.
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>> >> Maybe not much of a consollation but at least the family got a body
>> back
>>
>> And the bloke walked free? Your right thats no consolation at all.
Zero, this was the Swindon taxi driver case. He was bang to rights for another murder, Sian O'Callaghan. He led police to body of a second victim from years earlier, Becky Godden. The breaches were around interviews in second case and the Judge threw it out.
He's now doing life for Sian's murder and in practice would be in no different position had he pleaded, or was found guilty after trial.
I can see WP's point but given the criticism of his conduct by a senior criminal judge I think disciplinary investigation is inevitable.
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>> All that will happen now, is SIO's will fail to stick their necks out and
>> will be more likely to comply with SOP's (Standard Operating Procedures) rigidly. That's a bad
>> thing.
Why? when failing to stick to procedure means your real perp get away with it? I dont see the benefit.
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"And the bloke walked free? Your right thats no consolation at all. "
And the family spend a lifetime thinking that one day they will walk back through the door.
In this case there was no link to the 'perp' and the body. He disclosed the whereabouts and then became a suspect.
PACE had been breached. Judge ruled evidence inadmissible so that was that. It was their only chance but failed.
Last edited by: Fullchat on Sun 28 Oct 12 at 17:09
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From the way the BBC reported it it was a major breach of PACE. These SIOs know the rules backwards - if they don;t they shouldn't be doing it. The guy took a chance, The case was flawed because of this.
I think the point that WP is making if PACE had been complied with they would never have found/known of the other body.
What immediately came to mind in listening to the details was the West Midlands Serious Crime Squad fiasco where they were interviewing suspects in the back of cars.
Off to the IPCC website to research the full story !
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>> I think the point that WP is making if PACE had been complied with they
>> would never have found/known of the other body.
Correct. Finding out the information is worth not being able to use it at court. Judgement call at the time. Not something an SIO should be suspended for.
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Trouble is people including the pen-pushers at IPCC will see it like that.
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What a stupid trout. She does actually have a valid ppoint about Police communication to the public, but has shot the whole thing down by the stupid badger tag.
The only reason she wants to know about shootouts at the badger coral, is so her and her looney mates can go and protest, nuffink to do with public safety.
Pity really. She has a point. Stupid trout.
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>> We're saved !
>>
"The retired human resources professional" ......says it all.
For that read bureaucratic pfd only interested in sticking to the rules and Standard Operating Procudures and wholly unable/unwilling to make a quick decision or look at the bigger picture.
Just what you'd need running the police then.
Somewhere else in the blurb, she's quoted as saying "I don't believe you need to be well informed...." ??? FFS.
Last edited by: VxFan on Sun 4 Nov 12 at 20:31
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She pulled out in October. No doubt the prospect of losing a £5000 deposit was prominent in her mind. But she has a point on the opaqueness of the police industry.
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I wonder why the deposit for a PCC post is 10x that for a member of parliament candidature ?
Does that mean that in the grand scheme, an MP is worth 1/10th of a PCC?
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>> I wonder why the deposit for a PCC post is 10x that for a member
>> of parliament candidature ?
>> Does that mean that in the grand scheme, an MP is worth 1/10th of a
>> PCC?
Well apart from inventing large expenses in some cases they mainly rubber stamp what comes from the EU masterstate so yes, 10% of the useless twerp linked above sounds about right.
:-)
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>> I wonder why the deposit for a PCC post is 10x that for a member of parliament candidature ?
Presumably so none of those annoying normal people can put themselves forward and it remains a party-political gravy train.
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i wonder how long it will be before we hear these words on a news report ' in a statement today commissioner Gordon said .....'
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Mess up locally means there's no Labour candidate.
ANY criminal conviction disqualifies. Drunk in the street at 18 or in his case disorderly conduct at a demo in 1980 rules one out.
Now he should have known this and one suspects some wishful thinking. But given the propensity of young and particularly male people to pick up convictions for DUI or out of control 'handbags' is the no convictions rule sensible?
IMHO it counts with dangerous dogs and the Child Support legislation as a massive failure of Parliamentary oversight.
The LibDem is actually a decent guy who I know through the Rail User Group but it makes you think about democracy denied.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Sun 4 Nov 12 at 20:12
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I wonder what is the percentage of police officers with convictions? We should be told. But, no doubt we won't.
Last edited by: NIL on Sun 4 Nov 12 at 21:14
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>> "Many forces could not provide details of criminal records dating from before their staff joined the police, meaning the true figure will be significantly higher"
But nonetheless you've gotta love NIL's thouroughness :-)
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I already knew a number of police forces were shy and reticent:)
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>> I didn't have to look far.
Which included this
" Many forces could not provide details of criminal records dating from before their staff joined the police, meaning the true figure will be significantly higher.
Some of the criminal records were a bit weak tho. Dangerous driving? I doubt that one detracts from ones moral code to become a police officer. Resisting arrest was probably a fit up at the time anyway!
Last edited by: VxFan on Mon 5 Nov 12 at 10:33
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It seems another unnecessary & expensive (look at the salary + support staff) layer of bureaucracy.
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Wonder if it's going to work out cheaper than the Police Authorities ?
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I don't believe in this election at all, but seeing as it's taking place, then I feel obliged to vote.
The most important consideration here for me is that PCC really should be an apolitical position. There are two independents standing in my authority, so they will both get my two votes.
This is Thames Valley though, so the Tory party could dig up Jimmy Savile's corpse and it would get elected.
Blooming disgrace really.
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Confessing I know little about them I wonder will the PCCs work to a different script, or will they develop policy as they get experience? What are the checks against, e.g. a radical religious head? Will the police do as required even if the direction is thought to be flawed? Pity the idea was not piloted first.
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>> Confessing I know little about them I wonder will the PCCs work to a different
>> script, or will they develop policy as they get experience? What are the checks against,
>> e.g. a radical religious head? Will the police do as required even if the direction
>> is thought to be flawed? Pity the idea was not piloted first.
Their authority presumably comes from being elected.
Fine when you are choosing an MP who doesn't have any individual power. Not so good when you are electing somebody who might have little competence (because the electors have been looking at their politics) who can dictate policy to the chief constable.
The chief constables are the professional experts. All that's necessary is a structure to prevent them marking their own homework, not an amateur boss telling them what to do.
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>> Will the police do as required even if the direction
>> is thought to be flawed?
Well they did during the last Govt, when the Home Office introduced various diktats, (e.g. about what was priority crime and what needed to be 'measured'...to the detriment of other things that traditionally used to be policed, but in reality no longer are).
So this new system has elected Commissioners who can hire/fire Chief Constables. It'll be a brave CC who says 'no', won't it.
I envisage emergency legislation to remove a crime commissioner, when it all goes horribly wrong. A warped part of me can't wait. The other side is in despair.
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>> I envisage emergency legislation to remove a crime commissioner, when it all goes horribly wrong.
Quite. What do you do when your get somebody loopy in the post who undermines practical policing, probably by jumping on the nearest popular bandwagon when the election is coming up?
Policing has become far too politicised already, which is where all the dysfunctional targets came from.
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>> Some of the criminal records were a bit weak tho. Dangerous driving? I doubt that
>> one detracts from ones moral code to become a police officer.
Dangerous driving could have been from a work accident....
and...
My old Inspector when I was a Sergeant, came back from a shift early, feeling unwell, and caught someone in bed with his missus...he was nicked for ABH on the fellow, I don't suppose many folk would have seen much harm in that either.
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>>he was nicked for ABH on the fellow, I don't suppose many folk would have seen much harm in that either.
I dunno. Was he ever responsible for the prosecution or arrest of someone accused of ABH who also felt he was justified?
Because if he was, then I would see plenty wrong with it. i.e. I'm above the law and I can do what I want because I'm a copper.
If he was never responsible for the prosecution of anybody under those circumstances then he wasn't wrong. He just should have been fired.
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"I dunno. Was he ever responsible for the prosecution or arrest of someone accused of ABH who also felt he was justified?"
Probably, doesn't mean he agreed with it though.
Have dealt with many people who were a victim of circumstances at the time and if I could have let them out of the door I would have done. Discretion has all but gone.
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>>Discretion has all but gone.
I couldn't agree more. And its a shame. Unavoidable, but a shame.
However, one can't really show your boss a bit of discretion without being prepared to show it to anybody in such circumstances.
But unfortunately, that wouldn't be upholding the law.
Don't get me wrong, I sympathise and wish it weren't so. But it is so, and it cannot be one law for one.....
I don't really think the police service/force/whatever is broken. However, the court and penal system is absolutely broken. And involving more politicians is not going to solve anything.
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>>Was he ever responsible for the prosecution or arrest of someone accused of
>> ABH who also felt he was justified?
>>
>> Because if he was, then I would see plenty wrong with it. i.e. I'm above
>> the law and I can do what I want because I'm a copper.
I don't see the connection.
When he is at work, he's paid to apply the law without fear or favour. If there's discretion to be had and he correctly applies it, then so be it.
When he's off duty, then he's up for grabs just like anyone else. If someone else applies discretion to him, then so be it, as long as it is proper.
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>> My old Inspector when I was a Sergeant, came back from a shift early, feeling
>> unwell, and caught someone in bed with his missus...he was nicked for ABH on the
>> fellow, I don't suppose many folk would have seen much harm in that either.
>>
Story in the Sunstarmirror:
"Cuckolded copper nicked for dobbing man who was dibbing his missus.
Lame duck limp Mr Copper came home to find his neglected nympho Mrs exercising her right as an adult woman to a have a romp with a macho man of her choice in her marital bed.
Mr Copper lost control and dobbed an innocent man who was playing hide the sausage with a grateful Mrs Copper whose husband had not been using his dibbler to plant seeds with her for a long time.
Mr Copper thought he and his wife were totally blameless, and his wife's lover deserved to be beaten up by macho Mr Copper with his truncheon. Mrs Copper's lover who cannot be named for legal reasons, is a fine upstanding man in the community, doing a lot of charity work for children and hospitals, and will be standing in the coming erections elections to be the next local Police Commissioner.
Mr Copper was nicked for ABH even though he protested that that was how he used his truncheon on villains everyday on the job."
Last edited by: John H on Tue 6 Nov 12 at 08:34
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There is an HMG e-petition for those against the PCC process tinyurl.com/clvmoxv
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I don't like it at all that the candidates seem mainly to be sailing under the colours of political parties. It's not at all like electing an MP.
Electing somebody who can in effect tell a chief constable what to do should not be on the basis of political leaning, but surely should be about choosing a candidate with relevant skills, knowledge, experience.
Many people, if they vote at all, vote on some sort of party preference - a stupid way to choose a chief of police when we expect the police themselves to be apolitical and impartial - how can they be, when they are directed on party lines?
My choice is from a Conservative who was the chairman of the police authority, and Labour, LibDem and UKIP candidates. The Conservative will win, because this is Hertfordshire and because the Tories are usually seen as the party of law and order.
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I have just looked online at the brief statements by the five candidates standing in my area.
The only one with experience as an actual copper (40 yrs, no retirement rank given), whose statement is also pretty good (for what it's worth of course) is a UKIP person, which is a pity because I have a prejudice against UKIP. The other good statement - for what it's worth - is the one by the LibDem.
Apart from the UKIP guy none has anything better to offer by way of experience than membership of the police authority for a few years. They aren't all that convincing, especially the Tory, and this is a Tory area.
My wife says: of course we could abstain. But I'm afraid too many people will be doing that. I may have to hold my nose and vote for the LibDem or even, yuck, UKIP candidate to reduce the probability of a useless Tory becoming commissioner.
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>> which is a pity because I have a prejudice against UKIP.
What's the problem with UKIP? I notice that Paul Merton gets sniffy with Nigel Farage when he's on HIGNFY.
Is it a BNP type thing? I see them as firm Tories or am I missing something?
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The main problem for me is the name. It seems to me quite simply barmy to suggest, as that name does, that this country isn't independent. So I can't take the party seriously.
UKIP members seem a pretty mixed bag. They aren't all rolling-eyed far-right racists and xenophobes, but some are. Farage is very sharp but to me far from personable.
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>> The main problem for me is the name. It seems to me quite simply barmy
>> to suggest, as that name does, that this country isn't independent. So I can't take
>> the party seriously.
Isn't that the problem though, we're not fully independent.
A European politician can dictate what this country needs to spend...and a European court can dictate what this country needs to do.
If we had a common market only...i'd think that sensible, but having someone unaware or uncaring of our ways, making decisions that we have to abide by leaves me most uncomfortable, I'd rather our own elected govt did that, all of it, not just some of it.
I don't vote for UKIP as they have no hope in hell of gaining power and I don't want Labour getting in because people like me haven't voted Tory.
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>> .and a European court can
>> dictate what this country needs to do.
What, like tell us we can deport Abu Qatada you mean?
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Am I the only one who feels that politics and policing shouldn't be mixed?
Whatever happened to coming up through the ranks to a job like this one?
Pat
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>> Am I the only one who feels that politics and policing shouldn't be mixed?
You must be the only one who didn't read the opening post......
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>> Am I the only one who feels that politics and policing shouldn't be mixed?
No you are not, it's an enormous step backwards.
Policing and politics got bad enough during the New Labour years when the Home Office started to interfere with policing by setting more and more crime objectives for political reasons, often knee jerk (which were then concentrated on to the detriment of other areas). Bung in financial bonuses for senior cops who reached those targets and you can see why some areas got neglected.
A lot of policing needs long term solutions, which you don't get if what's in today's newspapers is deemed important.
It's WRONG,WRONG,WRONG.
A political commissioner will demand the police achieve things that look politically good for their party and a fair chunk of that will be short termism...and it will be much harder for the local Chief Constable to resist, because the political commissioner hires and fires Chief Constables.
Wait until a maverick commissioner gets in and starts causing chaos...it if wasn't so serious i'd be looking forward to the bun fight.
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Thank you Westpig!
I had this discussion with Ian at the weekend, he doesn't agree with me, so I shall make him read your posts.
In any other household you would be held responsible for a domestic, but we don't do arguments, just a heated debate......when he finally gets home!
Pat
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Perhaps this forum isn't the place for me to clog up the system too much with my rants, but here's some brief examples:
1,
Street robberies (mugging) became a more enhanced policing priority (due to politics) when I was a Sergeant on a London Borough in charge of the Ops and Duties Office (the office that sorted out who does what when).
My Borough Commander instructed me to provide the staff for a new squad of 1 Inspector, 3 Sergeants and 20 PC's to combat our 25% increase in street robberies.
We'd gone from 3 a day to 4.... and they were all over the place...no specific times/places, it was random.
Total waste of time having that amount of staff concentrating on that amount of crime, when Lambeth Borough was having 40 to 50 street robberies every day and we'd be neglecting other areas to achieve it.
I couldn't understand why he wouldn't listen to my reason and understand the staffing difficulties I was having achieving it...until someone senior whispered in my ear "bonus".
2,
As an Inspector in charge of an emergency response team, my teams performance with '999' calls was always a priority for me...but....none of us were measured on it...so over the years the figures dropped from about an 80% achievement for an 'Immediate response' (12 minutes) on my Borough, to under 50% (all London Borough's were similar).
I'd get my backside kicked in other areas, but refused point blank to compromise on it. Other teams concentrated on what they were asked to concentrate on. We are talking about people dialling '999' for an incident that a police control room designates urgent and needs an Immediate response?...yet it was not a priority? ..because a political decree had designated something else. I'd argue at every management meeting about it and I might as well have been weeing in the wind.
Three years later...and surprise, surprise...it was a priority. Why wasn't it one all along? Other priorities came to the fore...and why was that? Home Office targets set by politicians.
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Two of my best friends are police officers, of varying rank.
They both advised me not to vote.
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I feel uneasy about the whole business. Not explained, not tested, no mandate, and no obvious expertise for the post. Not to mention that the incoming PCC will probably be at odds with the police force, ACPO, the HO and the local councils if there are any changes mooted. Cuckoo in the nest, but I'll bet the resident chicks triumph. Which will mean at least £100,000 wasted!
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>>I feel uneasy about the whole business.
Me too.
And for me Manatee put his finger on it when he said....
"Fine when you are choosing an MP who doesn't have any individual power"
Its that individual power which is worrying.
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Lot of unease amongst Police friends on a FB group - I always vote in a plebiscite/election - I'm thinking of opting out of this one - the idea is full of holes. As one Officer said to me once "the public know very little about Policing beyond their own doorstep - how do they know what they want". I think I mentioned my dislike of one of the candidates around here - the other party hacks are unknowns only one of the candidates has any experience of Policing.
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First time ever I refuse to vote.
Don't understand/know enough to judge.
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>> As one Officer said to me once "the public know very little
>> about Policing beyond their own doorstep - how do they know what they want".
100% accurate. The first neighbourhood meeting I ever went to, as the local area police manager, to set policing priorities with local people's input, went as follows:
- Do your best to put off the the 'one issue' pedants, who have exhausted all other remedies and now think the local police forum is the way to go.
- Try to get the group to 'up the game' from dog mess and cycling on the pavement.
- Try to get the group to move on from speeding.
The general police priorities of residential burglary, street crime (muggings) and drug dealing very rarely came to the fore.
As for major organised crime, terrorism, etc, etc..forget it, nowhere near the agenda for anyone outside the police world...and yet it is essential.
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>> >>I feel uneasy about the whole business.
>>
>> Me too.
>>
>> And for me Manatee put his finger on it when he said....
>>
>> "Fine when you are choosing an MP who doesn't have any individual power"
>>
>> Its that individual power which is worrying.
No thats fine, provided the person who has it is grounded, sensible and accountable to those who elected them. However as most of the candidates have some political affiliation or axe to grind, thats gone right out the window.
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We have two "independent" candidates in Nottinghamshire.
I shall vote independent, just to deny approval to the Labour & Conservative placemen.
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>> We have two "independent" candidates in Nottinghamshire.
We have one independent candidate in Lincolnshire.
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For the past 8 years or so, I have been Presiding Officer at elections at a local village. The electorate are a public spirited bunch and I would estimate that the turnout is consistently some 10% higher than the national average; it will be interesting to see what happens tomorrow.
I believe that there would be a better response if there were an option labelled "I do not know enough about this position or the candidates, but I suspect that it's a waste of public money - and the whole idea should be abandoned".
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Ah, deep, deep joy! The latest issue of Private eye has just popped through the letter-box at 3pm. It has arrived just in time to help pass the anticipated dead spots during tomorrow's PCC election!
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Another follow up to my own post but.......
A chap who I teach banjo has just told me that his son, who is an electrician, is on stand-by from 5 in the morning until 11 tomorrow evening with a van load of generators in case of power failure at any of the local polling stations. Just one more cost to whole stupid process that I hadn't even considered :-(
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In Avon and Somerset we have an independent candidate who sounds half way decent - but it's difficult to know whether to vote for her in the hope of keeping out the political candidates, or boycott the whole ill-conceived money wasting process.
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I feel a strong urge to abstain/spoil ballot because I dislike the idea in a visceral native sort of way. It seems interfering and unnecessary, with possible unpredictable knock on effects. And yet another fat cat to pay, with staff.
Do any of our serving or retired police officers have a reason for recommending people not to vote? Or do they think we should vote for the parties they favour themselves? Is there a mainstream police view, or are there many?
Last edited by: Armel Coussine on Wed 14 Nov 12 at 20:18
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>> Do any of our serving or retired police officers have a reason for recommending people
>> not to vote? Or do they think we should vote for the parties they favour
>> themselves? Is there a mainstream police view, or are there many?
>>
I am well out of the loop now, so cannot answer from a policing perspective.
My own view is vote for the political party that most suits my thoughts....despite the fact i don't think it should be politicised.
My reasoning is the independents could easily become a nightmare, whereas the political appointee will have an affiliation with a national party, who will want votes next time, so will rein them in if necessary.
I decided to vote...because...I didn't want my apathy to let the other lot in, who I dislike intensely.
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Surely it's just a bunch of stooges who are being set up to take the heat for the impending huge cuts in Policing.
See also "forming private water companies when the govt faced a multi-billion pound bill to upgrade water supply and sewerage" and "commisioning groups to take the flak for increased NHS rationing so the govt can blame someone else".
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Our Police Authorty comprises of a selection of members from across the political spectrum including 2 independent members. Decisions about the budget, Policing Plan and hiring of Chief Officers are therefore balanced and to the benefit of Force with no agendas, outside influence or political meddling. I see no benefit whatsoever in the appointment of PCCs other than reducing the expense of committee members.
The only explanation I can come up with is that the Police service has been perceived as autonomous and a law unto itself for decades (which couldn't be further from the truth), and this is seen as a way of breaking into the traditional model.
I'm not overly fussed about voting but shall make the effort. I've listened to all the candidates. Prescott is a no no just because its Prescott. A retired senior Officer knows the job. The Tory candidate came across very well, although he's a supporter of privatisation, UKIP was going to get rid of speed scammeras(bonus)and the rest really hadn't a clue.
Still haven't made my mind up yet.
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www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-20314859
A headline from our local news page - a solution from an agile, responsive force, run on a shoestring but stepping in when the bureaucrats get it badly wrong. Theresa May wants the Police to concentrate on crime and nothing else - so you blinkered, ignorant woman who steps in when everything else has gone to rat-poo???? Oh er....the Police. Wonder what our elected figurehead would make of decisions like that ?
Last edited by: VxFan on Fri 23 Nov 12 at 01:21
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www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-19507688
Here are the candidates for my parish. One looks like a right wally - so I guess UKIP won't be my first or second choice.
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To suggest that police concentrate on crime and nothing else is farcical. There are a myriad of other tasks for the police, crime is but one of them. The ambulance issue is repeated across the country. If there's no-one else, call the police. They can't say no, they have a duty to protect life, whatever the circumstances and the ambulance service knows it. Treeza needs to encourage her head out from where it resides and see daylight. And if I hear: 'back office functions' or 'frontline' one more time I might just try and spontaneously combust. There aren't any 'back office functions' that aren't inextricably linked to the overall policing operation. Protecting the public from a whole raft of threats, locally and nationally, isn't always conducted in a uniform on the street. Those back office functions aren't quoting for double glazing or rolling cigars. They are policing functions. I'd like to share some figures with you about daily demand in a county force but I can't. Suffice to say that the demands are way above public perception. As for PCC's...bring 'em on. An opportunity for the police to educate the public in what they're doing overall, although I have little confidence that PCC's will get that message out, and yes, the service has been poor at engaging in it's own publicity. Police authorities have become stagnant. The concept of a force being accountable to the public it serves is sound. How that's achieved and whether it becomes over-politicised is another question. Time will tell. Breakfast rant over. Hi-ho, hi-ho,....
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And remember all this wise pontification comes from a woman who wants our streets safer - a woman who can't even count the dates in a Calender correctly thus allowing a bearded alleged "terrorist" to roam the very same streets.
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>> And remember all this wise pontification comes from a woman who wants our streets safer
>> - a woman who can't even count the dates in a Calender correctly thus allowing
>> a bearded alleged "terrorist" to roam the very same streets.
>>
Grossly unfair. She doesn't/didn't count the dates, her civil servants do/did. That is what they are there for. The country's ills in many respects can be laid at the door of incompetent civil servants.
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The fault is purely the British interpretation of "Human Rights".
And the Judges for allowing last minute appeals when the appellant has known for days - often months - they have a set date to appeal - and leave it to the last minute.
It's called "abuse of process" and practised entirely by lawyers .:-)
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London Mayor is a PCC. It works. Stop all the whinging.
>> To suggest that police concentrate on crime and nothing else is farcical. >>
>> Suffice to say that the demands are way above public perception. >>
>> As one Officer said to me once "the public know very little about Policing beyond their own doorstep - how do they know what they want". >>
Some ex and current Police above complaining that the public don't know what Police do, public perception being wrong, public should not be allowed to choose PCC, wrong candidates standing for election, etc. - blame yourselves then, because well it is in your power to change it.
Whenever I hear public officials complaining about change, I know that the Govt must have got it right. Bring it on.
The public want local Bobbies/PCSOs to deal with low level local crime: dog mess, vandalism, cycling on the pavement, parking on the pavement, speeding near schools and in residential roads, burglaries, etc.
Deal with local issues and minor crime on a zero-tolerance basis and a lot of these minor criminals will not take the next step up to major crime.
>> As for major organised crime, terrorism, etc, etc..forget it, nowhere near the agenda for anyone outside the police world...and yet it is essential. >>
Leave the drug dealers and terrorists to a national dedicated force. Local policing should be about local issues, not national ones.
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>> Some ex and current Police above complaining that the public don't know what Police do,
>> public perception being wrong, public should not be allowed to choose PCC, wrong candidates standing
>> for election, etc. - blame yourselves then, because well it is in your power to
>> change it.
How? By employing spin doctors? Since when has good policing news ever been newsworthy.
>> Whenever I hear public officials complaining about change, I know that the Govt must have
>> got it right. Bring it on.
Hopelessly simplistic. Have the NHS changes and more managers been successful?
>>
>> The public want local Bobbies/PCSOs to deal with low level local crime: dog mess, vandalism,
>> cycling on the pavement, parking on the pavement, speeding near schools and in residential roads,
>> burglaries, etc.
>>
>> Deal with local issues and minor crime on a zero-tolerance basis and a lot of
>> these minor criminals will not take the next step up to major crime.
Again hopelessly simplistic. Yes, your basic statement in my opinion is 100% correct. However, there are not enough people employed to achieve it, not anywhere near. If you are constantly robbing Peter to pay Paul even to achieve the middle ranging or high end stuff...who is going to do all the low level stuff that the public wants them to do?
>> Leave the drug dealers and terrorists to a national dedicated force. Local policing should be
>> about local issues, not national ones.
There is some merit in that...however...there is also merit in having 'the Police' deal with it (as opposed to the British FBI), because unfortunately different organisations become secretive and parochial about sharing information...and that's a big negative. There's a surprising amount of info provided by beat Constables and PCSO's that becomes useful to Special Branch or the anti terrorism units.
>>
>>
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>> Breakfast
>> rant over. Hi-ho, hi-ho,....
>>
Nicely put Woodtser
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>> Theresa
>> May wants the Police to concentrate on crime and nothing else - so you blinkered,
>> ignorant woman who steps in when everything else has gone to rat-poo???? Oh er....the
>> Police.
RP. Have you a link or something to her remarks.
It's rigged me up. I want to fire a letter off to my MP. I'll try my best not to quote 'blinkered', ignorant', 'foolish' 'remote' 'out of touch' etc....but there's no promises.
If she's said that I might even try to get the press interested. What a stupid, stupid, ignorant thing to say.
Last edited by: VxFan on Fri 23 Nov 12 at 01:21
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Thanks chaps. There seem to be different police views, but they don't seem to suggest we shouldn't vote. So I am little the wiser.
The thing I find annoying about this proposal is that it has been sprung on us apparently suddenly, without a long, faffing 'national debate' to rehearse the main issues. We're all in the same boat but it's odd, not having much of a clue what or who to vote for.
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John H: the national force already exists, the National Crime Agency. Guess who they task? Are you there yet??? Yes, that's it, LOCAL FORCES....... Who has to have provision for national matters, train and mainatin training for officers in national matters, provide firearms capability, chemical/biological capability, deal with 2500 domestic cases a month in my area, maintain and train mutual aid public order capability, roads policing, crime investigation and so on. You really are not speaking from a position of understanding.
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The Lad and I have just been and cast our votes in our S Northants village. Judging by the poll clerks marked up register the turn out so far is very poor. In fact someone else asked and was told less than 200 so far in a village with population of c3700.
Hopefully a better turnout in east of county where there's a Parliamentary by-election in Corby.
Labour candidate was on paper but is in fact disqualified on account of a 25yo conviction for affray. Nothing to tell the punters that. If by some chance he's elected - the Corby turnout could skew result - there will be an immediate re-run.
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I was number 22 at the polling station at 2pm. Felt a bit of a waste really to doodle on the ballot paper and scrawl "SPOILED" across the top.
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I did consider spoiling, but then I discovered that I had two crosses and two independent candidates in Thames Valley, so I gave one to each. While I don't like this elected sheriffs idea any more than anyone else - think of the conflict of interest inherent in making one person responsible for both policing and crime - what I object to even more is that it's become a party political issue, which policing should never be.
I don't know how many had voted here but the polling station volunteers asked me to shuffle closer to the man in front of me (there was nobody behind me) because we were the nearest thing to a queue they'd had all day.
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We went with Oscar, our Boxer. So that's 6 votes from us:)
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Just heard that on Andrew Neil's 'This Week' programme tonight (BBC1 11.35) they're going to be discussing the PCC elections. And for expert opinion they've brought in Huey Morgan - he must know what he's talking about because his band is called 'Fun Lovin' Criminals' :)
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Our rural polling station was well concealed down a cul-de-sac in a picturesque village, alas without street lighting in these straitened times. Inside it was like a morgue and the officials fell on us, famished. We had to queue for the single voting booth.
Now the die is cast. On mature reflection, I have decided to appoint the highly intelligent and witty Abu Qatada as commissioner, with the art critic Brian Sewell as second choice in the event of... but never mind that. Stand by for fireworks on the south coast.
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Whilst we don't know what people did with their postal votes, our rural station achieved 11% turnout. The village normally turns out some 8 to 10% above the national average. Judging from the comments and mutterings, I would expect that some of the papers would have been spoilt.
I looked at the Telegraph on-line when I got back last night, and couldn't find the slightest mention that a near-national election had taken place.
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I don't agree with you much of the time Armel, but the wit always makes me smile. I imagine you'd make a fine dinner guest. Fear not!
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11% at a friend's PS - where he sat patiently from 0700 to 2200..
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>> 11% at a friend's PS - where he sat patiently from 0700 to 2200..
>>
No breaks?
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First elected commissioner had a turnout of under 20%, he got 7% of the total vote and now has the £70K / year position - hardly a mandate but an NLE (nice little earner!)
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>> First elected commissioner had a turnout of under 20%,
Looks like national turnout is going to be around the 18% mark, so as said above most are going to rule with a public mandate of less than 10%
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"No breaks?"
My day as a Presiding Officer broke down thus:
5am Get up
5.45 Leave house
6 Pick up Poll Clerk
6.30 Arrive at polling Station and set up tables, signs, arrange paperwork etc
7.00 Open poll. Ours was a rural station and there were slack times (plenty) when you could make a cup of tea, go to the toilet, stand outside door and take fresh air etc. Things can get hectic, fraught or decidedly dodgy in some urban situations. You cannot leave the building.
10pm Close poll and complete all paperwork
10.20 Leave station to caretaker and drive to counting centre
11 Leave counting centre and drop off Poll Clerk
11.20 Arrive home
It makes for quite a long day, but we worked in a very pleasant, well-equipped village hall with a kettle and even a microwave for heating up a Cornish pasty!
I have an absolute loathing for all politicians, but I like to think that I can, at least, make a contribution to a fair and honest voting system.
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>> My day as a Presiding Officer broke down thus:
............
>>
>> It makes for quite a long day, but we worked in a very pleasant, well-equipped
>> village hall with a kettle and even a microwave for heating up a Cornish pasty!
How much did you cop for that?
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The pay for a PO is £195 for the day + £50 for an afternoon's training (less tax). You also have to attend a couple of days before the poll to collect your ballot box and all the paperwork and to receive a final briefing. I don't have the figures for a Poll Clerk but I believe it's about 3/5ths the pay of a PO. It works out roughly to about £12 per hour for a PO and £7 for a PC; it won't make you rich. You normally have to do 3 elections as a PC before you can become a PO and, by the way, there is more to it than meets the eye of the casual observer.
Ask at your local council offices if you are interested in the work; you don't have to be/have been a council employee or be politically motivated. The Poll Clerk and I both took early retirement from the chemical industry.
Last edited by: Haywain on Fri 16 Nov 12 at 09:08
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Hope the new PCC's will address this then:
Beginner’s Guide to Police Harassment
A North London police station received this question from a resident through the feedback section of its local Police Website:
“I would like to know how it is possible for police officers to continually harass people and get away with it?”
In response, the local sergeant posted this reply:
First of all, let me tell you this ... it’s not easy. In Stoke Newington and the rural Hackney area we average one cop for every 5005 people. Only about 60 per cent of those cops are on general duty (or what you might refer to as “general patrols”) where we do most of our harassing.
The rest are in non-harassing units that do not allow them contact with the day to day innocents. At any given moment, only one-fifth of the 60 per cent of general patrols are on duty and available for harassing people while the rest are off duty. So, roughly, one cop is responsible for harassing about 60000 residents.
When you toss in the commercial business and tourist locations that attract people from other areas, sometimes you have a situation where a single cop is responsible for harassing 15,000 or more people a day.
Now, your average eight-hour shift runs 28,800 seconds long. This gives a cop two-thirds of a second to harass a person, and then only another third of a second to drink a Costa coffee AND then find a new person to harass. This is not an easy task. To be honest, most cops are not up to the challenge day in and day out. It is just too tiring. What we do is utilize some tools to help us narrow down those people we can realistically harass.
PHONE: People will call us up and point out things that cause us to focus on a person for special harassment. “My neighbour is beating his wife” is a code phrase used often. This means we'll come out and give somebody some special harassment. Another popular one is, “There’s a guy breaking into a house.” The harassment team is then put into action.
CARS: We have special cops assigned to harass people who drive. They like to harass the drivers of fast cars, cars with no insurance or drivers with no licence's and the like. It’s lots of fun when you pick them out of traffic for nothing more obvious than running a red light. Sometimes you get to really heap the harassment on when you find they have drugs in the car, they are drunk, or have an outstanding warrant on file.
LAWS: When we don't have phone or cars, and have nothing better to do, there are actually books that give us ideas for reasons to harass folks. They are called “statutes”. These include the Theft Act, Offences Against the Persons Act, Criminal Attempts Act and a whole bunch of others... They spell out all sorts of things for which you can really mess with people. After you read the law, you can just drive around for a while until you find someone violating one of these listed offences and harass them. Just last week I saw a guy trying to steal a car. Well, the book says that’s not allowed. That meant I had permission to harass this guy.
It is a really cool system that we have set up, and it works pretty well. We seem to have a never-ending supply of folks to harass. And we get away with it. Why? Because, for the good citizens who pay the tab, we try to keep the streets safe for them, and they pay us to “harass” some people.
Next time you are in North London, give me the old “single finger wave”. That’s another one of those codes. It means, “You can harass me.” It’s one of our favorites.
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...harassment ..... ah yes, Barwell, Leicestershire.......
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Well, the sensible independent elected here - ex-bobby, QC and Crown Court Recorder. His politics were described to me yesterday by his neighbour as "old fashioned liberal" - he has a good head on his shoulders, speaks at least two languages, I voted for him - 15% turn-out....nonsense isn't it.
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>>"old fashioned liberal"
Well if you believe what is alleged that apparently means eating big pork pies while spanking delinquent young men on the bottom.
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I understand that there was a significant number of spoilt papers - has anyone seen, or got a link to, any specific data on this?
Certainly, in a TV vox-pop interview prior to the election, a retired (high-ranking) policeman expressed the view that the turnout would be low - NOT because of apathy, but more as a protest.
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According to the BBC 3% in the Dyfed/Powys Police area.
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I think he may be crediting the public with far more sense than we deserve
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Best news of the day :-
John Prescott lost - in his own back yard!
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"Best news of the day :-
John Prescott lost - in his own back yard!"
YES!!!!! It might have cost us £75m, but it was worth it to see that pillock given a finger :-)))
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"Best news of the day :-
John Prescott lost - in his own back yard!"
YES!!!!! It might have cost us £75m, but it was worth it to see that pillock given a finger :-)))
+ 1
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We had 4 candidates in my area, I voted for the two who did not have political affiliations.
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2 Jags was not my choice either. We will look to see what my new Governor has to say.
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Our long term city centre MP, Tony Lloyd, resigned from his job, stood as commissar...and won.
His was the only name I knew, although me 'n 'er didn't bother.
We now have the fragrant Lucy Powell, elected today, in Parliament.
Both Labour, of course.
Ted
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Quite a few ex MPs elected. Ted mentions Tony Lloyd. I see Vera Baird was elected in north east and Jane Kennedy in Murkeyside.
Baird, apart from over egging the feminist pud, seems competent enough. Kennedy, who was a junior minister when I worked in what was then LCD was a dead loss. AS one of my colleagues observed - justice today? by next year she'll be at Ag and an expert on spuds!!
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Thankfully, despite a low turnout, Surrey elected an independent, a former Met Commander.
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Is that the Zero Tolerance one ? :-)
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The LibDem and UKIP candidates, for whom I voted in that order breaking the habits of a lifetime and with strong emotional doubts, didn't get anywhere.
I hope the Tory lady who gets to trouser the quite decent salary in this reactionary backwater will know her place and not try to do anything. Her winner's speech was reassuringly anodyne, some bog-standard guff about favouring victims of crime instead of criminals.
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Her winner's speech was reassuringly anodyne, some bog-standard guff about favouring victims of crime instead of criminals.
That is against the spirit of the Judicial Code.
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If these commissioners make a change and are accountable to us see what happens.
We can live in hope.
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Not too sure I particularly want too much in the way of change. Live in a low crime area and my albeit limited limited encounters with the local force have always found them to be reasonably efficient and helpful.
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Now that the tension and excitement is over what is going to happen on Monday? These 42 people, on £60K plus, are going to go to work. Do they have offices and staff, do they have Terms of Reference? Will they hit the ground running or will things start moving in the New Year. If what they are going to do has been as badly though out as the elections were I am not very hopeful.
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I assume they can utilise all the resources, processes, and procedures of the outgoing police committees, changing things as they go. They were elected with terms of reference.
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>> Is that the Zero Tolerance one ? :-)
Thats the fella.
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How's he going to manage that without sufficient cops to cover the basics as it is. Zero tolerance doesn't work - been tried and it failed.
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Specially in the county with one of the lowest number of police to residents...
Surrey police only survive because by and large its an exceptionally law abiding place, with "those known" mostly in small policeable areas. Even given that they are an utterly useless force, screwing up rigid anything major that comes their way (Jimmy Saville, Milly Dowler, The Guildford 4), poor clear up rates, poor fiscal control having to give back millions to central government, and spending a fortune on fancy exotic pursuit cars just to patrol 20 miles of the M25 and 40 miles of the A3. They couldn't even protect their own police helicopter from criminals.
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Police and crime commissioners - Fursty Ferret
