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Listening to R2 this morning in the car - a cover version (a rather skinny latte one at that) of Forever Autumn (War of the Worlds..) sung by Gary Barlow (of all people). Much was made of the way he pronounced "Drawing" in the song as "Drawring" - why do people pronounce it like that. As kids my mother made much of preventing us from adding the extra "r" in the word.....Was she wrong ??
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Justin Hayward sings "Drawing" in the original version... not adding the link as once you listen to it it'll rattle around your head for the rest of the day...
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>> Justin Hayward sings "Drawing" in the original version... not adding the link as once you
>> listen to it it'll rattle around your head for the rest of the day...
www.youtube.com/watch?v=hsCdlX-5UjE&noredirect=1
Evil laugh from the the place where the martians landed.
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www.youtube.com/watch?v=MVlZQymOu_E
The atrocious Barlow version. An awful discordant version.
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I may well be a philistine, but whilst I prefer the original version (I always do, I hate change, I don't even like it when the original artist sings it differently) I thought Gary Barlow's version was quite ok. I'd listen to it on the radio.
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>> I may well be a philistine, but whilst I prefer the original version (I always
>> do, I hate change, I don't even like it when the original artist sings it
>> differently) I thought Gary Barlow's version was quite ok. I'd listen to it on the
>> radio.
Its a direct copy, no attempt to put a personality or style on it, and as a direct copy its a poor one at that. Its like buying Rola Cola rather than Coke. Its Scheiße.
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Perhaps, but most times I'd rather a copy than an interpretation.
There was a reason I liked a particular record, and it wasn't for someone else to sing it differently.
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>> Perhaps, but most times I'd rather a copy than an interpretation.
Why bother with a copy when you can listen to the original.
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I wouldn't, but neither am I bothered by it.
Whereas a cover might significantly bother me to listen to.
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The Lad* and I saw the new stage version in film form tonight.
An excellent performance/cast. Only slight complaint was it dragged in places where the discipline of getting on two LPs kept the original tight.
Rather than Barlow the Hayward role was taken by Marti Pellow. I thought operatic but The Lad says he was in some outfit called Wet, Wet Wet.
Parson Nathaniel was played by Jason Donovan. Not Lynott but a damn good interpretation.
It was made by the musicians though - keyboards, orchestral strings, percussion and guitars/bass/mandolin type thing were stellar. Herbie Flowers was the only name I recognised though.
If it's on round your way well worth the price.
* Youngest person there by a considerable margin!!
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>>Was she wrong ??
No more than mine.
Pri Minister is my pet hate.
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BBC saying "relatives have been told".
Told what? Get off the grass?
"relatives have been INFORMED" !
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You think English is easy??
The bandage was wound around the wound.
The farm was used to produce produce.
The dump was so full that it had to refuse more refuse.
We must polish the Polish furniture..
He could lead if he would get the lead out.
The soldier decided to desert his dessert in the desert..
Since there is no time like the present, he thought it was time to present the present.
A bass was painted on the head of the bass drum.
When shot at, the dove dove into the bushes.
I did not object to the object.
The insurance was invalid for the invalid.
There was a row among the oarsmen about how to row.
They were too close to the door to close it.
The buck does funny things when the does are present.
A seamstress and a sewer fell down into a sewer line.
To help with planting, the farmer taught his sow to sow.
The wind was too strong to wind the sail.
Upon seeing the tear in the painting I shed a tear..
I had to subject the subject to a series of tests.
How can I intimate this to my most intimate friend?
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No language is easy in my opinion.Lots of words have double meanings.
In my birth language the R and G is often used.Like Godverdomme try saying it Dog.>:)
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I haven't known anyone who possesed a drawing room for a long time.
We have a sitting room, and most of the people at work have a room they call the lounge.
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Even back in the seventies, in a house with three reception rooms, we had a lounge for high days and holidays and a living room where we sat, read and watched telly etc.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Fri 26 Oct 12 at 18:53
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>> We have a sitting room, and most of the people at work have a room they call the lounge. I haven't known anyone who possesed a drawing room for a long time.
There is a room where I draw down the paper from the roll.
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Can't say I'm that keen on the Barlow version either but like others here the original goes back to my teens.
There is a new stage version of WotW about to launch. Burton part played by Liam Neeson IIRC. Barlow's on the revised album but not touring.
The Lad & Miss B's B/F are off to see it at NEC in December.
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I met Hayward and Lodge earlier this year.
Nice chaps.
they said that as much as they hated hearing 'cheesy strings' versions of their songs, they knew that they were making money on the deal.
I mentioned that my former employer's 'hold' music was 'Nights in..' on the pan pipes, and they laughed like drains, then I mentioned that my former boss, having tried to get hold of the IT department, used to slam the phone down and shout "%$#% YOU JUSTIN HAYWARD!!!"
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>> Burton part played by
>> Liam Neeson IIRC.
My Gawd, is nothing sacred, the yanks will be claiming the martians landed over there next*.
HG wells must be spinning in his grave.
* edit Oh wait a mo, They did.
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>>
>> >> Burton part played by
>> >> Liam Neeson IIRC.
Anyone seen the Tom Cruise film version ? My God, what a load of rubbish. I'd much rather listen to Burton doing it on LP any day. Add Under Milkwood to that as well although I just about prefer the Anthony Hopkins version of that.
Ted
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>>When shot at, the dove dove into the bushes.
Since when was dove the past participle of dive?
Almost as bad as the driver who broke - no doubt with his breaks.
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Surprising how many cyclists ask forums for advice about breaks and peddles.
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Conversely and some may suggest perversely, I abhor the habit of dropping the letter "r" when it should be pronounced. For years we had to suffer our Prime Minister being referred to as Mr Bleh. His name is Blair. The phonetically correct pronunciation is "Blay-Ir". So for example don't say "Weh is Bleh?" when you mean "Whay-Ir is Blay-Ir".
So They-Ir !
:-)
Last edited by: Humph D'Bout on Fri 26 Oct 12 at 20:15
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And another thing ...
There is no egg in eggplant, nor ham in hamburger; neither apple nor pine in pineapple. English muffins weren't invented in England We take English for granted. But if we explore its paradoxes, we find that quicksand can work slowly, boxing rings are square and a guinea pig is neither from Guinea nor is it a pig..
And why is it that writers write but fingers don't fing, grocers don't groce and hammers don't ham? If the plural of tooth is teeth, why isn't the plural of booth, beeth? One goose, 2 geese. So one moose, 2 meese? One index, 2 indices? Doesn't it seem crazy that you can make amends but not one amend? If you have a bunch of odds and ends and get rid of all but one of them, what do you call it?
If teachers taught, why didn't preachers praught? If a vegetarian eats vegetables, what does a humanitarian eat? Sometimes I think all the English speakers should be committed to an asylum for the verbally insane. In what language do people recite at a play and play at a recital? Ship by truck and send cargo by ship? Have noses that run and feet that smell?
How can a slim chance and a fat chance be the same, while a wise man and a wise guy are opposites? You have to marvel at the unique lunacy of a language in which your house can burn up as it burns down, in which you fill in a form by filling it out and in which, an alarm goes off by going on.
English was invented by people, not computers, and it reflects the creativity of the human race, which, of course, is not a race at all. That is why, when the stars are out, they are visible, but when the lights are out, they are invisible.
PS. - Why doesn't 'Buick' rhyme with 'quick' ?
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Stumped. Cornwall 1. Devon 0. Brilliant though Sir. Goodnight to you.
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Indeed, brilliant, Dog.
English has lots of inconsistencies but so do most living languages, because they've evolved over time. Esperanto is logical and consistent, but it's never caught on because humans aren't logical and consistent enough for it.
Am I right in thinking that English is the only language with two completely separate sources - Indo-European and Germanic?
One great virtue of English is that men are masculine, women are feminine and things are neuter. Most other languages have gender rules that defy logic - although having met some German spinsters I do see some rationale in German women being neuter (das Kind, das Mädchen, das Fräulein) until they get married (die Frau).
Oh, and I do agree with R.P. - 'drawring' is infuriating and completely unnecessary, as it's hardly difficult to pronounce 'drawing' as it's written.
Last edited by: Avant on Sat 27 Oct 12 at 00:05
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Had a right laugh with a friend who had learnt Welsh. Went to a pub with her and she asked for a Coke and Ice to the nice Welsh Landlord. Trouble is the word for Ice and Sex are Rhew and Rhyw....The Landlord was very quick in saying "OK but I'll have to serve these others first"
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"Am I right in thinking that English is the only language with two completely separate sources - Indo-European and Germanic?"
I wouldn't be asking the question quite like that, to paraphrase the Irish joke.
The Germanic languages are a sub-branch of the Indo-European language. In other words, linguists suppose that a branch of IE existed which is called Proto-Germanic, the ancestor of the Germanic languages, which include Anglo-Saxon, the ancestor of English.
It is accepted that Indo-European was the ancestor of all languages originating in Europe, plus Iran and parts of India.
Modern English is a synthesis of many languages when it come to vocabulary, but most of it comes from Anglo-Saxon, French, Latin and Greek, all of which are part of the Indo-European family. Most of our grammar and syntax (in other words, the structure of the language) derives from Anglo-Saxon.
One of the most fascinating aspects of English, once it had emerged from the Anglo-Saxon-and-French synthesis following the Norman invasion, was its uncanny ability to absorb words from a huge range of other languages and cultures. The size of English vocabulary by far exceeds that of any other language.
Last edited by: FocalPoint on Sat 27 Oct 12 at 23:45
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I think it depends on what part of the country you come from and your social upbringing. In this pronunciation www.howjsay.com/index.php?word=drawing&submit=Submit I can't be certain that I can't detect at least the hint of an r.
Last edited by: L'escargot on Sat 27 Oct 12 at 07:35
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I always thought of it as a Southern thing - Barlow is a true Northener. There's pronounced hard "g" at the end of the word "following" which is a Norhthen trait. Songs can be sung de-accented or in fake, usually American, drawl.....shame the normally well spoken Mr B has spoilt this one for me.
Last edited by: R.P. on Sat 27 Oct 12 at 07:43
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When I worked in Yorkshire (in a drawing office, up to our ears in engineering drawings) the locals pronounced it draw-wing.
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Like Snaily I'd associate draw-wing or drawring with the West Riding. Probably Manchester as well.
PArtly a background thing, very noticeable in pupils my mother taught who were SEN and from disadvantaged backgrounds.
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>> Like Snaily I'd associate draw-wing or drawring with the West Riding. Probably Manchester as well.
It was West Yorkshire.
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west riding is an old name (and shortened) for west yorkshire. i'm not sure 'drawring' it's a west riding thing much more a manc thing. I think there is quite a few words they almost turn into two. I never heard anyone say it like that, but very noticeable in mancs and a few other parts of t'other side of the pennines.
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>> It was West Yorkshire.
>>
There's another oddity of |English; how emphasis can change meaning completely.
It was West Yorkshire - agreement
It was West Yorkshire - correction
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Whats it called now then?
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It all called the norf if you live in East London.
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>> It all called the norf if you live in East London.
>>
Up there somewhere if you live in Surrey :-)
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still is that now and has been since the 70's. Before that it was the west riding of yorkshire.
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>> >> It was West Yorkshire.
>> >>
>>
>> There's another oddity of |English; how emphasis can change meaning completely.
>>
>> It was West Yorkshire - agreement
>>
>> It was West Yorkshire - correction
>>
It was in West Yorkshire that I worked. I don't work there any longer.
Last edited by: L'escargot on Sat 27 Oct 12 at 10:44
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The West Riding comprised the post 1974 West Yorkshire plus most of South Yorkshire.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Riding_of_Yorkshire
The West Riding coat of arms was around all three schools I attended.
Still have a ruler engraved WRCC.
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>> en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Riding_of_Yorkshire
Yorkies can't make up their mind which way up the white rose of Yorkshire should be.
tinyurl.com/9ctxjhn
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>> Still have a ruler engraved WRCC.
>>
I was taught that a ruler is a person who rules. The thing used to measure dimensions is called a rule.
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"I was taught that a ruler is a person who rules. The thing used to measure dimensions is called a rule."
Your teacher obviously didn't have access to a dictionary then :-)
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>> "I was taught that a ruler is a person who rules. The thing used to
>> measure dimensions is called a rule."
>>
>> Your teacher obviously didn't have access to a dictionary then :-)
>>
You obviously don't have access to a dictionary of sixty-odd years ago ;-)
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"You obviously don't have access to a dictionary of sixty-odd years ago ;-)"
Ah but that where you would be wrong Mr Snail. If you look at the attached link you will see that Webster's dictionary has the usage to which you object in both the 1913 and 1828 editions.
machaut.uchicago.edu/?resource=Webster%27s&word=ruler&use1913=on&use1828=on
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Webster's dictionary was originally a dictionary of American English. I wouldn't place too much store by its claimed international comprehensiveness even today.
The Oxford dictionary is still the gold standard for British English, in my view.
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I wouldn't disagree but since both meanings of the word ruler are derived form the Old French "riuler" meaning to control guide or direct and its usage in English meaning "Strip used for making straight lines" is recorded from the mid-14c." I think we can be pretty sure that the usage as recorded in Webster's and indeed in the current Oxford Dictionary would have been current in England 60 years ago
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"I think we can be pretty sure that the usage... would have been current in England 60 years ago."
I don't disagree; when I was at grammar school 50 years ago it was thus used.
To be pedantic, my Concise Oxford Dictionary quotes the etymology of "rule" as being from Old French "reule", from Late Latin "regula", meaning "a straight stick".
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The Riding was a an ancient administrative division dating back to the Danelaw. It was divided itself into Wapentakes and actually means "third". Lincolnshire also had Ridings.
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>> The Riding was a an ancient administrative division dating back to the Danelaw. It was
>> divided itself into Wapentakes and actually means "third". Lincolnshire also had Ridings.
Known as parts. As A kid I couldn't understand why an area of England was shown on the map as Parts of Holland
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............and Nordic tribal meetings to sort out disputes were known as "Things", according to my reading of possibly the best fictionalised account of the Vikings - "The Long Ships" by Frans B. Bengtsson.
So it's OK to call the politico's meetings "those pesky things"!
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is east yorkshire in the north sea?
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>> When I worked in Yorkshire (in a drawing office, up to our ears in engineering
>> drawings) the locals pronounced it draw-wing.
>>
On second thoughts, the way they pronounced it was more like dro-wing.
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dro-wing is right.The a becomes a o.Like naughty.>:)
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>> dro-wing is right.The a becomes a o.Like naughty.>:)
>>
It was dro rhyming with roe.
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Ah - the delights of English language pronunciation!
Let's have some examples of our weirdness.
For starters, names.
St.John
Cholmondeley.
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Magdalen College
Last edited by: No FM2R on Sat 27 Oct 12 at 15:30
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Gonville and Caius... Fanshaw and its variants...
Last edited by: Armel Coussine on Sat 27 Oct 12 at 15:38
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We have a school here called Ket Well Lane.I wonder where that came from.
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>> Magdalen College
>>
(/ˈmɔːdlɪn/ MAWD-lin)[
I know it well - not to be confused with Magdalene "at the other place"
Just arrived back again from yet another Oxford visit having crossed Magdalen bridge a few times.
Now back in Esher ( passing by High Wycombe) . We soon know strangers who do not know that it is Eesher. says someone from Isleworth as in Eyes el worth or as Wki nicely puts it (pronunciation: /ˈaɪzəlwɜrθ/). Wiki lists a dozen names earlier in its existance.
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>> St.John
>> Cholmondeley.
>>
You've guessed my first name and my surname. Top marks.
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Norfolk is a great place for this sort of thing - Hunstanton is pronounced Hunston, Stiffkey rhymes with Newquay, and Happisburgh (what's left of it) is Haisburgh: not so happi as it's gradually falling into the sea.
The Irish have us beaten for the sheer distance between spelling and pronunciation - think of Siobhan, Aoife, Niamh and Taiseaoch (I've probably spelt that last one wrong....)
Last edited by: Avant on Sat 27 Oct 12 at 16:47
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>> Norfolk is a great place for this sort of thing - Hunstanton is pronounced Hunston,
Is it? Everyone I know calls it Hun-stan-ton
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Not far off - with thanks to Google, it's Taoiseach, pronounced something like teashop.
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An Irish friend admits that he was 7 before he had it pointed out to him by his primary school teacher that the political leader of his country was not called the "T-Shirt".
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Actually, I quite like the idea of changing my name by deed poll to St John Cholmondley Featherstone-Haugh. Love to hear how an "offshore" call centre operative would cope with that when trying to tell me they were calling from Microsoft...
:-)
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>> Actually, I quite like the idea of changing my name by deed poll to St
>> John Cholmondley Featherstone-Haugh. Love to hear how an "offshore" call centre operative would cope with
>> that when trying to tell me they were calling from Microsoft...
>>
>> :-)
Hiya Jock.
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When I first moved to the North of England I began to be concerned that I looked unwell. everyone kept asking me if I was alright.
Eventually the penny dropped and now I know how to carry on almost an entire conversation using little else than the word "alright".
Goes something like this when meeting an aquaintance in the street.
Iya, owaya, alright?
I'm alright, you alright?
I'm alright
Your missus alright?
She's alright thanks, yours alright?
She's alright.
Alright then. See ya.
Alright.
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Local town is Towcester, pronounced as toaster.
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Cirencester is a bit annoying though. It has to be pronounced earnestly as written, like an American tourist mispronouncing Worsestershyer...
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Milngavie ( a mildly pretentious northern suburb of Glasgow ) p Mill-Guy
Ardnamurchan ( a remote peninsula in the west of Scotland ) p Ard-nah-murra-chan ( the "ch" as in "loch" not as in "lock"
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Oh another Scottish one, rather famously,
Menzies - p Ming-iss ( with a soft "g" )
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Ooh and another
Scone ( as in small confection ) rhymes with "gone"
Scone ( the place ) rhymes with "moon"
Scone ( as in rhyming with "loan" ) does not exist.
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You forgot one.....
Scone (rhymes with "It's gone") Scottish football team's self-respect.
As an exiled Scots' friend said when Wales beat them "That's it, we've hit rock bottom !"
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And the grandaddy of them all:-
Llanfairpwllgwygyngyllgogerychwyndrobwllanfairtysiliogogoch.....a made up name for a real enough village down the road. It does mean something but fabricated for the Victorian Tourist trade.
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Star crossroads I was told?
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Star is between us and Lalnfair around 3 miles from the village.
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Launceston in Cornwall is prononced Lanson (by the proper Cornish.
Fowey is pronounced Foy
Mousehole is pronounced Mowsal
I've even come across Bessy Beneath once or twice: www.geograph.org.uk/photo/443029
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>> Launceston in Cornwall is prononced Lanson (by the proper Cornish.
Indeed. Slight problem, when I was in Australia and said I was going to Lanson in Tasmania, they informed me that one is called Lawn-cess-ton
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Could possibly be a Cornish connection there, wherever you find a hole you'll find a Cornishman.
(oops!)
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There's a lot of this cross-pollination in the Anglophone world.
For example wortleberries are known as 'erts' in some of the southern States of the US, as they still are (or were forty years ago) in Devon.
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A young colleague who moved down to Hampshire had a rather broad Yorkshire accent and was teased by the lovely barmaid in our local pub who quite fancied him.
"Can I have a glăss of coke please?"
"It's glahhhs, not glăss."
"Wŏt?!"
"I said it is glahhhs, not glăss."
"It's glăss!"
"Glahhhs."
"Grăss"
"Grahhhs"
"Făt"
"Fahhh.. Oh no you don't!"
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>> A young colleague who moved down to Hampshire
I know, I would be ashamed to say Basingstoke as well. Băsingstoke doesn't sound any better
Last edited by: Zero on Sat 27 Oct 12 at 19:15
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He was a sophisticated Yorkshireman. He bought a place in the Candovers dahhling.
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as in 'cwying' ..only fools and horses
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Both the draw-ring any the hard g on ing I think of as a scouse trait. Neither is Yorkshire, or wasn't. I hear southern diphthongs in Yorkshire now that certainly weren't there when I was a lad, or even 20 years ago. They get it 'off the telly'.
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>> They get it 'off the telly'.
East Enders got a lot to answer for innit?
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>> >> They get it 'off the telly'.
>>
>> East Enders got a lot to answer for innit?
>>
And Australian soaps. A lot of youngsters now have a rising inflection at the end of every sentence, making it sound like a question. tinyurl.com/2gp7qg
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apparently i live in lye-sester- shire...according to my misses ( shes a roman )
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Times change. Anybody here still say "Sisister" for Cirencester?
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I heard someone on the box last night, the voiceover in a worthy but prurient piece on Victorian and Edwardian life which I saw for a few minutes, pronouncing drawing room like that with the intruded r.
In the old days the BBC had a pronunciation department that would tell them how to pronounce any word or name however outlandish.
Some of those ill-sounding Arabic gutturals can be learned, but there are some sounds and phonemes a western tongue has real problems with. The Xhosa click for example. You can maybe do the click, but not seamlessly in the middle of a word.
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Yes indeed. Odd isn't it how, especially those from the South East will randomly insert the letter "r" in places where it isn't welcome but equally will delete it from words where it has equal rights. Much the same with Northern English and the letter "h".
I genuinely have heard someone hereabouts who upon trying to polish their diction referred to 'am and heggs" as being a breakfast option.
Not that it really matters. Just an observation. Not life threatening or even slightly dangerous I suppose.
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>those from the South East will randomly insert the letter "r" in places where it isn't welcome..
As opposed to those from Scotchland inserting half a dozen you mean?
:-)
Last edited by: Kevin on Sat 13 Apr 13 at 20:19
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To be fair, Kevin, England is out of step with most of Europe there, not Scotland.
From my attempts at learning a bit of French, German and Italian over the years it seems as if they all like to roll their "r"s.
As my German teacher used to say, "When there's an rrrrr in a worrrrd in Gerrrman, you hearrrr it - rrrright?"
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>> I genuinely have heard someone hereabouts who upon trying to polish their diction referred
>> to 'am and heggs" as being a breakfast option.
>>
In 'ertfordshire, 'erefordshire and 'ampshire, 'urricanes 'ardly hever 'appen.
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Cirencester is pronounced "sister" in our family, for whatever reason. The good fun one to give to Americans and the like, of course, is Happisburgh. As to Shrewsbury - shroo or shrow? We do Shroo, no idea if it's right.
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>> As to Shrewsbury - shroo or shrow? We do Shroo, no idea if it's right.
I was told it depends which side of the river you are.
Is the river Nene the Nene or the nen?
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Nen of course. :)
But we say Neen if adding "Valley".
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A bit of a bete noir of mine is the missing "r". Even the allegedly perfect diction of some of the more traditional BBC announcers gets caught out by these...
Tony Bleh
Margaret Thatch-uh
Prince Chahles
John Maj-uh
Jimmy Cah-tuh
etc etc
Or my all time favourite...
Edwood Woodwood.
Give them their "r"s back, it's an injustice !
:-)
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>> Edwood Woodwood.
>>
Though it maybe helped give rise to a series of corny jokes, which included...
Q- What do you call a man with a piece of wood on his head?
A- Edwood
Q- What do you call a man with three pieces of wood on his head?
A- Edwood Woodwood.
Not to mention...
Q- What do you call a snooker player balancing a pint of beer on his head.
A- Beertrix Potter
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What do you call a deer with no eyes, no legs, only and always seen after dark, which lives on a coral reef in the Pacific?
Still, deaf and nightly no idea atoll.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Sun 14 Apr 13 at 17:43
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>
>> Is the river Nene the Nene or the nen?
Nen upstream of Northampton but Nene below. Or at least that's the local belief.
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The hamlet of Alswear in Devon is pronounced Ulser by locals. Launceston is Laaanson. Scunthorpe has its own issues.
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>> Scunthorpe has its own issues.
>>
Part of a classic intro by Humph from ISIHAC
"It's well documented in official records that the City's original name was 'Snottingham', or 'Home of Snots', but when the Normans came, they couldn't pronounce the letter 'S', so decreed the town be called 'Nottingham' or the 'Home of Notts'. It's easy to understand why this change was resisted so fiercely by the people of Scunthorpe. "
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Then there's the Aussie pronunciation of Loogiboroogie.
8o)
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Drawring room... - R.P.