www.cps.gov.uk/publications/prosecution/householders.html
I'm going to bin my pickaxe handle and buy myself a knobkerry.
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Two factors always seem to arouse greatest controversy when one of these cases hits the headlines.
1) that innocent people acting exactly according to the guidelines are nonetheless subject to the humiliation of arrest and detention in police custody, often for several days. They are then graciously "pardoned" by the police, who somewhat grudgingly admit that there are no grounds for prosecution.
People who have just had their house burgled and have legally killed or wounded the perpetrator are hardly a public danger or are about to flee the country, so why do they need to be held? Why can't the investigation and interogation be held at their home, or at a voluntary visit to a police station?
2) that people who legitimately have tools, implements, weapons to hand in the course of their work or hobby seem to be allowed to use greater violence than those who don't.
Keeping a samurai sword by your bed appears to be unreasonable premeditation, but having a shotgun in a rack isn't.
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Working with tools is a different scenario Cliff as part of your job.Defending your home is our right.I wouldn't like to cut a youngster up to defend my few possesions.Unless he attacked my wife and me.Adrenalin takes over in some people,it is hard to predict.
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Cliff,
The problem for the Police is that they don't know whether the law was complied with until they interview the householders. If there's a suspicion of undue force, and that will inevitably be case where there's a death then householder is a suspect.
If proper protocols are not followed then there's a risk that evidence will be tainted. Arrest and questions under caution with PACE safeguards is unaviodable. See recent case of Swindin taxi driver for what consequence might be if 'due process' ignored.
Obviously police should be as symapathetic as possible but until evidence is gathered and CPS decide not to prosecute the humiliation (if taken that way) is part of the process and has to be endured.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Tue 23 Oct 12 at 10:26
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The law could be worded quite simply, really. If you decide to burgle a property then you forfeit all of your human rights, including your right to life.
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Can I use reasonable force against the spotty hoodie wearing oik who keeps putting hundreds of pizza/indian/chinese takeaway leaflets through my front door each week?
Does it count if his fingers appear fractionally through the letter box?
Please say yes.
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Reminds me of c1965 when I was doing my paper round, the paper was ripped out of my hand as I put it through the letter box.
Looking back though, I suppose it was a Guardian Dog.
:}
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>> Reminds me of c1965 when I was doing my paper round, the paper was ripped
>> out of my hand as I put it through the letter box.
>>
>> Looking back though, I suppose it was a Guardian Dog.
>>
>> :}
>>
Or a Gnuardian God!
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>> The law could be worded quite simply, really. If you decide to burgle a property
>> then you forfeit all of your human rights, including your right to life.
>>
I wouldn't go quite that far, but I think the basic presumption should be reversed.
ie if you are found standing in the street brandishing a smoking gun while someone lies dead at your feet, the presumption is that you have some serious questions to answer, and can reasonably be arrested while enquiries are made.
But if you phone the police to report an armed break in at your house, and say you shot one of the intruders, then the presumption should be that you are innocent until/unless the police have reason to suspect anything different.
I'm sure this policy of arresting the innocent must be a recent thing. It never seems to happen in traditional detective stories. A story about a house party of a dozen people with real or concocted reasons for wanting the victim dead would make dull reading if all the guests and M. Poirot were all automatically arrested.
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I'd tend to agree that arresting people after an offence does seem more or less routine now. Pat has complained about lorry drivers being detained in the immediate aftermath of a serious RTA. It's ceertainly common in the case of HGV/cyclist fatalities in London.
Arrest is not a presumption of guilt, everybody arrested 'on suspicion' is technically innocent.
If there's a body on the hall floor, or somebody with grievious injuries, then even if you have reported a break in you have some serious questions to answer. I'm only an observer of the legal scene not a lawyer but I'd guess early arrest ensures that the protections of PACE and associated codes are in play.
Protections then apply to arrestee and to evidence he produces. Reduced scope for lawyers to present legal arguments absent the jury about what's admissible.
Perhaps RP could confirm.
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>>
>> If there's a body on the hall floor, or somebody with grievious injuries, then
>> even if you have reported a break in you have some serious questions to answer.
>>
So if you were out walking and heard cries for help, and when you got to the scene a man was lying dead, the assailants vanished, if you called the police you would be arrested as chief suspect?
No thanks, I think I'd walk the other way.
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Is it still currently the case that if you are arrested (not arrested and charged, just arrested) your DNA is taken and stored on a database forever?
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>> Is it still currently the case that if you are arrested (not arrested and charged,
>> just arrested) your DNA is taken and stored on a database forever?
>>
I hope so.
Jolly good idea!
What's the harm in it?
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>> Is it still currently the case that if you are arrested (not arrested and charged,
>> just arrested) your DNA is taken and stored on a database forever?
>>
I don't mind provided that they don't take it all.
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Straw nan argument Cliff.
The body in floor in my post yesterday was a follow on from your scenario of a call to police reporting you'd shot an armed intruder.
Responnding to cries for help is different. In that case you're a witness.
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>>but having a shotgun in a rack isn't.
In a locked approved Gun safe to correct the position.
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>> Keeping a samurai sword by your bed appears to be unreasonable premeditation ..........
What about my knobkerry?
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>> What about my knobkerry?
I've no idea, other than it looks like a willy, but smaller.
Oh, and stop calling me Kerry ;)
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The use of force against intruders - MD
