One of our Daughters friends is a police officer lovely girl.We have known her as a child.
Had one of her tough shifts the other night,she got assulted by two lads. Not very brave attacking a young women.(True cowards) I know we often mention about police pensions etc etc. Life isn't always easy on the streets for the modern bobby.
Last edited by: VxFan on Tue 23 Oct 12 at 10:02
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arm the coppers, and teach them how to use firearms. Try to assault a copper? Shoot the feckers. END OF STORY.
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Leading to every idiot going out prepared and upping the ante.
No. Way.
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Ok, so you lot continue to arm rozzers with truncheons/nightsticks, while the villains have guns?
Who were those two murdered women PCs again?
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Yes. So that we don't encourage even more villains to carry guns routinely, increasing the risk considerably of creating unnecessary danger to the public and an arms race with the Police, resulting in an even greater threat to the Police themselves.
People know this when they join the force. If they want a risk free existence they can sit and stare at a computer all day like me.
I don't think there's an appetite for armed Police here, even after recent events. Events which would have probably had the same outcome if the officers in question were armed.
I think most people in the UK realise this, and have a sense of proportion, and so don't on the whole think the Police should be routinely armed. If you think arming the Police would stop them being killed, then it would be a good idea to provide evidence of a comparable country where armed Police = a lower Police death toll than here. I've not looked, but I'd be surprised to hear of one.
Sense prevails in the UK on this subject.
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Something out of the ordinary not a day to day thing. Gun crime is still pretty rare.
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>> Ok, so you lot continue to arm rozzers with truncheons/nightsticks, while the villains have guns?
>>
>> Who were those two murdered women PCs again?
And how many others have been shot in the last 10 years? Hmm let me see. I know considerably less than the quantity of miners mown down by the SAPS.
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Miners shot at the SAPS. SAPS returned fire.
SAPS had better weapons.
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>> Ok, so you lot continue to arm rozzers with truncheons/nightsticks, while the villains have guns?
>>
>> Who were those two murdered women PCs again?
>>
>>
>>
>>
How about that blind chap who was Tasered? Good thing the police weren't carrying guns then...
I apologise and realise this distracts from what happened to your friend, but it needed saying.
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>> How about that blind chap who was Tasered? Good thing the police weren't carrying guns
>> then...
>>
>> I apologise and realise this distracts from what happened to your friend, but it needed
>> saying.
>
Never mind the chap shot carrying a table leg. UK is an infinitely better place for having a police force that is generally without firearms.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Thu 25 Oct 12 at 22:21
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She is ok had a good night sleep a bit shocked.Height of her about 5.7 inches light in weight.
Arming police is a other matter.I've grown up with armed police so we where used to seeing the guns.If it changes anything don't know.
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>> arm the coppers, and teach them how to use firearms. Try to assault a copper?
>> Shoot the feckers. END OF STORY.
If only life was as simple as the movies...if the bad guy and the sheriff met at noon, for a fair fight, and the sheriff was always quicker on the draw...
About 70 police officers are shot dead in the US each year, all of them armed.
There are many differences between the US and the UK, but it is clear that arming police is far from a guarantee of their safety.
Perhaps that is why the UK police resist being armed, because they know policing is more nuanced than a Hollywood blockbuster.
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>> Perhaps that is why the UK police resist being armed, because they know policing is
>> more nuanced than a Hollywood blockbuster.
>>
I've said this fairly recently on here. One of the main reasons I would not wish to have been armed...is the hoo-hah afterwards if I did loose one off.
If we could accept that I'd not enter into any criminality with the firearm (because if I did i'd deserve everything I got), why should I worry about my liberty, job, marriage and ultimately mental health through extreme stress, just for doing my job to the best of my ability...(even if I did make a mistake)?
Hats off to those that do volunteer...but it wouldn't have been for me.
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I agree WP, when I carried a gun in the UK we had rules of engagement which allowed their use. The unofficial advice was if you do you will be answering to a judge as to why.
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I suspect the police, or more of them than currently will be armed in due course.
I also suspect the average gun toting criminal is a bully and show off gangsta type, whether they would be so quick to produce and use the weapon when a highly trained and serious copper is facing them down is subject to debate, somehow i doubt it, and i doubt that arming the police would see more criminals carrying, knowing they are likely to die or be seriously and permanently injured would deter most IMO.
As usual the justice system lets the police, victims and all of us down, until jail means austere accomodation for lengthy spells with no remission and having to do some useful hard manual work every day for their keep, then the slide to violent ghetto life will continue.
Hope the young officer concerned mends well Dutchie, as for scum well they're a growing menace, and few would like my ideas for dealing with them.
I will risk the wrath of modernists here and i mean no disrespect to any Officers, and remember one of my younger female family is a serving Met Officer, but my own feeing is that there are some jobs that are maybe not best suited to our fairer sex, particularly front line police duties likely to meet up with those in the OP....is it permitted to air a thought like that any more, probably not, i'll come quietly its a fair cop guv..;)
Last edited by: gordonbennet on Mon 22 Oct 12 at 15:41
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But as far as I can see (and I may be wrong) there are very few instances where unarmed coppers go in against armed criminals.
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>> But as far as I can see (and I may be wrong) there are very
>> few instances where unarmed coppers go in against armed criminals.
>>
Because the coppers don't know the criminals are armed.
Now, have it the other way, have cops with firearms drawn go against criminals, and the crims KNOW the cop is armed? And has back-up?
Obviously, this opens the 'suicide by cop' scenario.
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>> >> But as far as I can see (and I may be wrong) there are
>> very
>> >> few instances where unarmed coppers go in against armed criminals.
>> >>
>> Because the coppers don't know the criminals are armed.
>>
>> Now, have it the other way, have cops with firearms drawn go against criminals, and
>> the crims KNOW the cop is armed? And has back-up?
>>
>> Obviously, this opens the 'suicide by cop' scenario.
You have grasped the wrong end of the stick. I said very few unarmed coppers meet armed criminals, and one of the reasons is because if the police suspect they may be armed they turn up tooled up.
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>> But as far as I can see (and I may be wrong) there are very
>> few instances where unarmed coppers go in against armed criminals.
>>
Used to happen all the time, as the police had the very convincing argument to trot out of; "Give it up sonny you haven't hurt anyone yet, so don't make things any worse than they already are.".
Since we decided to make actually having the gun in the first place a "bang him up and chuck the key" offence, anyone having one might as well try to shoot his way out, as the line to be crossed in doing so is rather closer than it was. Couple that with that very illegality making a firearm the "must have" accessory for any wannabee gangsta and you end up with armed response units all over the place due to a sudden surfeit of armed idiots with itchy trigger fingers.
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>> >> But as far as I can see (and I may be wrong) there are
>> very
>> >> few instances where unarmed coppers go in against armed criminals.
>> >>
>>
>> Used to happen all the time, as the police had the very convincing argument to
>> trot out of; "Give it up sonny you haven't hurt anyone yet, so don't make
>> things any worse than they already are.".
>>
>> Since we decided to make actually having the gun in the first place a "bang
>> him up and chuck the key" offence, anyone having one might as well try to
>> shoot his way out, as the line to be crossed in doing so is rather
>> closer than it was. Couple that with that very illegality making a firearm the "must
>> have" accessory for any wannabee gangsta and you end up with armed response units all
>> over the place due to a sudden surfeit of armed idiots with itchy trigger fingers.
I think thats all slightly exaggerated. Used to happen all the time? Hmm - Also I don't see many reports of gunfights where perps "shoot their way out"
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Thanks Gordon she will be fine.One of my distant cousin is a Dutch bobby.I have only seen him once in Rotterdam when I was a young lad.They are used to being armed but the gun is only used in extreme circumstances.Ether themself at live risk or a member of the public.Some of the areas of Rotterdam I wouldn't go into without being armed as a copper it's the way of the world.
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>> Ether themself at live risk
>> or a member of the public.
>>
That is why people get shot for pointing a gun at armed police.
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Baddies don't follow rules of engagement.
To think they won't use a firearm first on a police officer or member of the public suggests they have a normal idea of 'consequence' - if they had that, then they'd not have tooled up in the first place.
Protecting the Police better will not be managed by giving them guns and armour (I know a few that even find the stab-vests a PITA).
Fast-tracked courtcases, and significant penalties for proven assaults on Police/Prison officers/Emergency workers rather than months of hanging about for some court time and then modest sentencing - that will offer greater protection.
The more the Police become removed from normal society, the bigger and more anonymous they become, and the less scumbags will think about attacking them.
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Could that be part of the problem Lygonos.The police is part of soceity.They are married have kids or maybe not.Shouldn't be any different than any of us.What is caused by this us and them? The British bobby was always respected and knew his community he had to patrol.I know the days of Dixon of Dock green have gone but should it.
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>> but my own feeing is that there are some jobs that are maybe not best suited
>> to our fairer sex, particularly front line police duties likely to meet up with those
>> in the OP....is it permitted to air a thought like that any more, probably not,
>> i'll come quietly its a fair cop guv..;)
>>
I know why you think that and I used to. I've changed my mind over the years, because...mostly it doesn't make any difference.
Generally, men don't take easily to punching women, so in some circs it can be helpful having a girlie along in the pub fight scenario.
There are times when it is more sensible having a brawny man about e.g. mental health patients who flip....but in reality a good control room manager would send the beefy ones, male or female, anyway.
I've yet to see an all female public order unit, i'm not sure if that would work.
The rest of your post I agree with 100%.
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>>
>> Generally, men don't take easily to punching women,
>>
But we are working hard to change that. Equality laws are gradually eroding the courtesy and deference previously shown to women, and they can now expect to have doors shut in their faces and be barged out of queues just like men. It's what they want, apparently.
So at the other end of the behaviour spectrum, we can expect the taboo against attacking women to be slipping too. It's already happening with the blind and disabled.
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>> But we are working hard to change that. Equality laws are gradually eroding the courtesy
>> and deference previously shown to women, and they can now expect to have doors shut
>> in their faces and be barged out of queues just like men. It's what they
>> want, apparently.
Don't believe for a minute it's what 'they' want. I hold doors for people irrespective of gender and have done all my adult life. Never once have I been taken to task by a woman. If on the other hand I'd done so and said beauty before age or something more patronising I'd not be surprised by trouble.
>> So at the other end of the behaviour spectrum, we can expect the taboo against
>> attacking women to be slipping too. It's already happening with the blind and disabled.
>>
At least in part the issue with disabled is down to a press campaign, partly inspired by govt, that portrays the disabled as scroungers geiing taxpayer funded cars etc.
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>>.
>>
>> Don't believe for a minute it's what 'they' want. I hold doors for people irrespective
>> of gender and have done all my adult life. Never once have I been taken
>> to task by a woman.
>>
Same here, but I have been scowled at by women who seem to think I am implying that they aren't capable of opening doors for themselves.
Not the majority, but it is a trend i notice.
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Just very loudly tell them how rude they're being Cliff, and also that they are doing the vast majority of us a disservice.
Pat
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' I didn't hold the door open for you because you're a lady, I did it because I am a gentleman, madam.'
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>> At least in part the issue with disabled is down to a press campaign, partly
>> inspired by govt, that portrays the disabled as scroungers geiing taxpayer funded cars etc.
Perhaps you would be kind enough to give us a few examples of this press campaign, partly inspired by government of which you write?
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>> Perhaps you would be kind enough to give us a few examples of this press
>> campaign, partly inspired by government of which you write?
Daily Mail passim.
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>>Perhaps that is why the UK police resist being armed, because they know policing is more nuanced than a Hollywood blockbuster.
I'm not sure that's still true. The source of this oft quoted belief was a survey of Fed members in 2006. The Superintendents' Association and ACPO say the same thing, but they aren't the ones being threatened, facing increasing disregard for police authority and more guns in the hands of criminals. There are now well known areas where criminals are commonly armed and using guns on each other. It's inappropriate that police are not armed in those areas.
My instinct has always been that if there were to be more guns around, whether on the side of the law or not, then more people would be shot. But I no longer think we can leave the police with tins of pepper and batons to face down gun-toting gangsters, if the police themselves want to be armed - maybe it's time to update the survey, I think the answer may not be the same as it was 6 years ago.
The US is not a good example. Armed police have not led to US levels of gun crime in just about every European country.
Last edited by: Manatee on Thu 25 Oct 12 at 22:45
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>> but they aren't the ones being threatened, facing increasing disregard for police authority and more guns in the hands of criminals. There are now well known areas where criminals are commonly armed and using guns on each other. It's inappropriate that police are not armed
in those areas.
>>
In 'those' areas where this situation exists and I am sure there are many a stronger approach is required. I am also sure that the powers that be have a reasonably good idea who the perps are. If one goes around with their eyes and ears open it is not too difficult to work out who is who to a greater or lesser degree. Nothing is simple, but I would start to use a sledge hammer approach to these folk in the form of the military preferably at 03.00 hrs and anyone found with an illegal firearm should face hard labour or worse. Am I right in thinking that there is already a mandatory 5 year sentence for this offence? Is it regularly applied? The softly softly approach to everything these days hasn't improved our lot has it?
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>> arm the coppers, and teach them how to use firearms. Try to assault a copper?
>> Shoot the feckers. END OF STORY.
>>
No thank you. You do what you want in South Africa and we will do what we want in Britain.
The murder rate in SA is 31.8 per 100,00.
The murder rate in UK is 1.2 per 100,000.
Link to Wiki
tinyurl.com/6x4pmk
I know which I would rather have. Put your own house in order first.
Last edited by: Duncan on Mon 22 Oct 12 at 15:58
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From the The Constable Public Safety Memorial Foundation, Inc. P.O. Box 6415 Bend, Oregon 97708-6415
Suggesting that its more complex than guns or not....
More than 14,000 law enforcement officers have been killed in the line of duty. (Over 6,000 officers killed since 1960).
Every year between 150 and 165 law enforcement officers are killed in the line of duty. (Over 300 children of police officers will need assistance in dealing with the grief of losing a parent.)
Every 57 hours somewhere in America a law enforcement dies in service to the community.
Two police officers are shot every day in the United States.
Most officers are killed during arrest situations, disturbances and car crashes.
Most officers are killed between 4:01 P.M. and Midnight 25% of officers killed are killed with their own weapon.
Most officers are killed within 60 seconds of contact with suspect.
40% of the time the officer is alone or has no backup available.
More than 189 police officers are assaulted every day in the U.S. (68,985 assaulted yearly) and rising (that is one out of every nine).
The FBI reports that on yearly average: 380 officers are the targets of unprovoked attacks by ambush, resulting in 21 law enforcement deaths.
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Do we compare like for like regarding armed police in the States Martin.
In Amerika people are allowed to be armed it is the norm in some states.In mainland Europe to be armed is illegal.That won't stop anybody enquire a weapon.Where there is a will is a way.
I wonder what the figures are for country's like France and Germany where police is armed.I know in the Netherlands police casualties by firearm is rare.
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I had that thought too Dutchie. Other near European places, same outlook different language, are good comparators for UK.
The USofA is a very foreign place with which increasingly we share little except a broadly common language.
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>The USofA is a very foreign place with which increasingly we share little except a broadly common language.
I believe the exact opposite. I think good old Blighty is getting more and more like the USofA every year. In most areas you can't get a Rizla between them even now.
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Yeah.
That'll teach 'em and keep their fellow officers safe.
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>>difficult to watch.
Hell. Not half its tough to watch.
I wonder if they equally abuse all races/colours. I rather suspect so.
However, neither should we lose sight of the abuse they take. Not that two wrongs make a right.
Does it make anybody think that video cameras everywhere are a good idea? Does me.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Tue 23 Oct 12 at 22:17
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My better half is a police officer not front line any more for which I count our blessings. Several years ago to cut costs her force stopped having two PCs as a "crew." It is now normal procedure to send whoever is available to respond to a disturbance and its just as likely to be a 5'3" 7 stone WPC as a big bloke. IMO it takes large spheres to step in on a domestic or pub fight with no immediate back up and at an obvious physical disadvantage despite the training and equipment.
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Not when they can't tell the difference between a blind man with a white stick and a nutter with a samuri sword and use a taser on the poor blind bloke.
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There are hundreds of thousands of Police/public interactions every day - a high proportion of them hostile, it's the ones that go wrong that make the headlines. As I've said before, it's easy to criticise from the comfort of an armchair/bar-stool/sofa unless you've been out there and done it for yourself.
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Dr Prunesqaller: Do you know how the man was behaving? Was he drunk, threatening, waving his stick about and claiming it was a sword? Threatening to harm officers with it? Was it dark, light, or somewhere inbetween? Was there an awful lot of time in which to study the stick?
No I don't know the answer to these questions either but perhaps you can see that the posibilities are endless. If it was far from this and the officers cocked up totally then they simply shouldn't be in office but the concept of misbehaving (regardles of age or disability) and then crying foul, simply isn't new.
I think I'd prefer to let the investigation run it's course before passing judgement.
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>> Dr Prunesqaller: Do you know how the man was behaving? Was he drunk, threatening, waving
>> his stick about and claiming it was a sword?
It seems reasonably clear from what's in public domain that there were reports of a man with a samurai sword doing some of the things above.
Mistaken identity, perhaps in poor light, and the blind man didn't respond to challenge as a sighted person would.
As he was only tasered an apology and possibly compo will resolve the matter.
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The live of a bobby. - Ian (Cape Town)
