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I see Paddy Power are offering 1/3 on the Scots NOT voting for independence. I think that's a fairly accurate assessment. Will leave Mr Salmond in a difficult position if it turns out correct. Cameron has run rings round him so far.
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Not sure about run rings.
Salmond has got the referendum when he wanted it and with a voting age of 16.
Fact is majority want Devo Max but it's Cameron who's removed that from options.
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According to opinion polls the 16 year olds have as much interest in independence as do their parents. Their inclusion will make little difference to the odds.
The removal of a middle ground option from the ballot ensures that there will be a clear answer to the question, something the nationalists are fearful of and wanted to avoid. A no vote will probably end Salmon's leadership but he is a slippery creature that's for sure.
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I think thats why the vote is two years away - to leave a lot of time for lobbying, brainwashing, canvassing etc.
As I have said before, I have always voted SNP as, where I live, it was a complete Labour stronghold as was much of Scotland. As SNP started to get more and more votes and seats, labour had to suddenly wake up and see that they better get their act in order.
Unfortunately for them, it apppears that they were not actually capable of doing this and the SNP have got stronger and stronger. In Scotland, they run rings round all the other parties who are totally clueless.
They have two years to get their act in order and convince voters that if they want to vote No, then they need to go to the polling booths and do it because you can be certain that all those who do want independence, will be going to the polling booths.
And for SNP, read Alex Salmond. If he got knocked down by a bus tomorrow, the whole indie push would grind to a halt.
It was bad enough letting politicians decide the Edinburgh Tram project - letting them decide on a historical change to a country's status is very worrying. Can see it tuning into the ultimate X Factor type Vote!!
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SNP never wanted to be separate from the UK. They wanted the Devo Max option. They didn't get it and so the referendum is probably irrelevant. Why vote to be outside of both the UK and EU? That would be stupid.
With the new vote options, if Scotland goes it alone the rest of us save money going to Scotland. Well done Cameron :-)
Devo Max or whatever was never an option - a cheque book even more blank if it was.
If I lived in Scotland I'd be slightly concerned that people assumed it will be a no vote.... and don't vote. And you all end up outside of the UK and EU. UK paid jobs (e.g. the defence stuff) get moved and you're stuffed.
It has already been said Scotland would not automatically be part of the EU. So any subsidies from the EU would stop. Money from the UK would too obviously. You'd have a new Scottish pound. And even if you got into the Eurozone you'd be suffering from the Ireland, Portugal, Greece, Italy, Spain and soon to be, France problem.
So as a tax payer I say to all Scots on here - vote for independence. Probably going to save me a few pence. But knowing some on here I hope for your sake you say NO!
Last edited by: rtj70 on Mon 15 Oct 12 at 23:58
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I think a lot of what you say there is not technically factual and over the next couple of years I would want to get facts from the parties rather than spin.
One of the first questions is , what would they do with Faslane? They can't just close that down and move everything down to England. SNP are anti nuclear, but with the amount of nuclear invovement at Faslane, the cost would stretch to billions to relocate it.
Also what happens with defence - do we just become the new Afghanistan and "England" will pay to defend us because of the implications for them if we get invaded?
Lots of info still to come...
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Also what happens with defence - do we just become the new Afghanistan and "England" will pay to defend us because of the implications for them if we get invaded?
We'll be happy for someone to invade Scotland and make the inhabitants slaves so they can get used to work.
:-)
(I am an exiled Scot)
Last edited by: madf on Tue 16 Oct 12 at 06:42
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12 months ago I would have said it would have been a "no" vote - not so sure now. They may vote "yes" just to give the Tories a kicking. I'm a natural conservative and even I think that an infinite monkey cage would do a better job than this current bunch.
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>> Also what happens with defence - do we just become the new Afghanistan and "England"
>> will pay to defend us because of the implications for them if we get invaded?
>>
>> We'll be happy for someone to invade Scotland and make the inhabitants slaves so they
>> can get used to work.
>> :-)
>>
>> (I am an exiled Scot)
>>
We could just invade them ourselves for the oil....
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Also... “FRRRRREEEEEEEEEEEDDDOOOOMMMMMM".
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I saw some Jock bitterly complaining that as he lived in England, he would not be allowed to vote, and how wrong that was.
He wanted to vote yes. Honestly, he lives in England and wants scottish independence!
You want it pal, you sodding move up there!
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>> I saw some Jock bitterly complaining that as he lived in England, he would not
>> be allowed to vote, and how wrong that was.
>>
>> He wanted to vote yes. Honestly, he lives in England and wants scottish independence!
>>
>> You want it pal, you sodding move up there!
>>
^^^^^^
THIS.
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If the jocks vote to be separated from the United Kingdom, will it be possible to repatriate the ones living in England?
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Put a chunk on a 'no' vote.
Scotland's never had an opinion poll in favour of Independence, and that includes the time of the SNP winning a landslide in a parliament actually designed to have no single-party majority government.
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It will have to be a large chunk at three to one on!
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There was a poll taken in scotland, the question was in two parts.
Will you vote for independence - Majority no.
Would you vote for independence if you were £500 better off a year. Majority Yes.
As much as the party leaders wish it were not so, the campaign is going to major on money in pocket. Either less or more.
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I wonder what proportion of "Scots" live south of the border? They constitute one of the attractions of Scotland for someone like me, living on the overcrowded south coast, the fact that the lovely Scottish countryside is very sparsely populated, thus has little traffic.
Another interesting statistic would be the percentage of the population that lives in Scotland compared with the percentage of the national exchequer they consume. There must be a big advantage for Scotland, which would be lost on independence.
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It would be worth the while of everyone living in England to pay the Scots £1,000 per head tax free to leave.
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IF Scotland became independent then any money they get from the UK (i.e. the flow of cash is to Scotland and not from it) would stop. Any EU money they might get, e.g. farming subsidies, would also stop.
I can't see independence being beneficial financially to Scotland. But that's not to say they won't vote for it. Just expect to be worse off financially. The rest of the UK is likely to be better off (well Wales is a burden too).
And would you want to join the mess that is the Eurozone if you had the chance? Although that would be some years off.
Last edited by: rtj70 on Tue 16 Oct 12 at 11:53
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The SNP had some 30+% of the vote - but how many were voting for SNP to keep out Labour?
Remember my enemy's enemy is my friend!
IMHO SNP has betting all on 2014 and will lose the referendum ............
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Is that 30% in Scottish elections or for Westminster?
ISTR there's a difference as many vote Labour for Westminster but SNP person for Holyrood.
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It wouldn't be a bad idea if someone kidnapped this ere Salmond geezer and locked him up on an Island orf the coast of South Africa.
Then we can all get back to the task of making Britain Great, again.
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Mindlessly shouting 'freedom' is one thing.
Understanding what freedom is about is entirely another.
I suppose it's too much to hope that the time between now and the vote will be used for an education process.
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I can't help think that Salmond has lost the battle for what he wanted. He wanted the third option on the ballot paper and he didn't get it. Now that is something the people in Scotland would vote for. To save face he's been given 16 and 17 year old being able to vote and the referendum will be in 2014.
Maybe things will change between now and then but would it be sensible to leave the UK when the rest of Europe is in such a mess, especially the Eurozone. And the independent Scotland would even be part of the Eurozone let alone the EU. And I know some countries do well outside of the EU with trade agreements but Scotland would have to setup similar agreements.
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Am I the only one who thinks the whole idea, including the SNP itself, is based on romantic claptrap?
It's been over 300 years since English and Scottish Union. The border is little more than an arbitrary administrative division (the mistake was to keep a 'border' at all) and its most important function is branding for tourism.
Why Scotland? Why not Yorkshire, or Birmingham?
Why not draw a line say from the Severn estuary to the Wash, and declare independence for the south east? The rest of the country would be completely stuffed.
If there is to be any separation, the whole country should vote on it, not just the Jocks.
I like Scotland, and I'd vote to keep it.
Maybe I should declare UDI for my 1/3 acre and make it a tax haven.
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I've posted before on a similar thread last year or earlier this year in which I said the whole issue of 'splitting up' such a small island seems daft.
We were once a mighty nation with massive economic, political and military might, but when the empire crumbled everything changed. We're bigger and stronger if we stay united.
As Manattee writes, why not Yorkshire? Who will be next, Cornall? The Scilly Isles? Will parts of Bradford declare independance and form a purely Muslim state? You may laugh but what's to stop THAT happening?
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>> Will
>> parts of Bradford declare independance and form a purely Muslim state? You may laugh but
>> what's to stop THAT happening?
>>
Laugh? Not me. See Kosovo for a recent example. When told by people that they deserve independence, I've often given the hypothetical example of West Yorkshire declaring independence sometime in the future when the immigrant majority outnumber the indigenous population substantially. Would we be in favour of that? Would the UN resolve in the Republic of West Yorkshire's favour? They would, if they followed the example they set over Kosovo.
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Yep! - if Caledonia pulls it orf, The Cornish rebels will be grouping on Blackheath, again.
www.mebyonkernow.org/policies/policy.php?id=6
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>> Yep! - if Caledonia pulls it orf, The Cornish rebels will be grouping on Blackheath,
>> again.
>>
>> www.mebyonkernow.org/policies/policy.php?id=6
>>
If minority political groups such as this got their way we'd end up in a system which existed after the Romans left Britain - with swathes of the country being independently led by 'kings'. Obviously trade would continue but at what cost and with a lack of national cohesion it could lead to all sorts of wrangling. Sounds almost like a post apocalyptic scenario a la Mad Max.
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I'm all for independence for Scotland if it means that never again will they be able to send us the likes of Gordon Brown.
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Tony Blair was educated in Scotland.
You're welcome :-)
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>> I'm all for independence for Scotland if it means that never again will they be
>> able to send us the likes of Gordon Brown.
Or Sir Nicholas Fairbairn & Michael Forsyth!!
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>> Or Sir Nicholas Fairbairn & Michael Forsyth!!
>>
Bit harsh on Fairbairn. Outspoken, but definitely gifted and one of the few politicians with real colour and character in recent times. Forsyth did a lot for his country too; Scotland I mean.
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Bring back feudalism (sayeth the Lord)
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I haven't come across many English people who care one way or another, so who are the Scots fighting for this independance?
Other Scots, I suspect.
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if scotland get its independence what will happen to the 40 scottish labour MP's in westminster, the labour party will never get a majority ever again when they go?
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Good point - it's obvious there won't be any Scottish MPs in parliament because we'd be separate. So another saving (40 x £90k pa). I hope they get their independence ;-) And if labour never get back in then that's not all bad either.
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>> And if labour never get back in then that's not all bad either.
>>
Our system doesn't work without a relatively strong Opposition and no other party would be able to field one.
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"and no other party would be able to field one."
All we need is a bunch of like-minded, honest individuals with common sense and leadership abilities to form a party. Alas this never seems to happen; do such people exist?
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I think it`s England that should vote for Independence! - dump not only Scotland, but N.Ireland and Wales, we dont need them!
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>> I think it`s England that should vote for Independence! - dump not only Scotland, but
>> N.Ireland and Wales, we dont need them!
>>
Interesting idea! If by "we" you mean people living in the south, what northern counties should we dump while we are at it?
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Wessex would make quite a nice little country.
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>> Wessex would make quite a nice little country.
Hmm, That includes Basingstoke doesent it? and Reading?
Wont catch me emigrating there, quite happy to farm it off from the rest of the UK tho.
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>>what northern counties should we dump while we are at it?
Only Yorkshire cos they`re tight- wads! - they`ll do anything for the three ride(ings) ;-)
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So if Scotland becomes independent, how will that affect me?
Do I need a visa/work permit to visit/work in Scotland?
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Think of the Employment it would create! - rebuilding Hadrians Wall!
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>> Do I need a visa/work permit to visit/work in Scotland?
Depends on what they agree between themselves (Scotland and the remainder of the UK). But if you have a permanent job in Scotland then you'd pay income tax there I guess... but it will be complicated. We have offices and customers in Scotland (and the rest of the world too of course)... so employees still needed and customers would be kept. But how do you pay the existing employees? Local currently and local taxes.
I still don't think the SNP want(ed) independence. They wanted more say of how the money given to Scotland is spent. If they are independent they don't get that income at all.
And what will they get from natural gas and oil from the north sea? There will be some money going the the UK from that now but most will be going to the companies extracting it... what revenue could a country get. And it's diminishing.
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Don't kid yourselves.
The SNP absolutely want independence.
Absolutely.
They are, however, pragmatic enough to realise that 'devo-max' will be easier to get first, and then it's less of a jump to independence.
Death by a thousand cuts and all that.
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Does the SNP have a clear model for what an independent Scotland would look like?
Would it be for example a republic, constitutional monarchy or some other structure?
Would it be in some sort of federation with the rest of GB and NI at least for defence and foreign affairs?
Would there be a Schengen style open border with England?
What would be it's currency?
Relationship with EU/NATO etc?
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Constitutional monarchy
Pound sterling.
Wants to be in the EU.
All moot points because it's not going to happen.
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Even if they vote yes (they won't surely) then:
- Currency as the GBP - not going to happen
- Want to be in the EU - they will have to apply and that might take a few years and no guarantee of joining. In the meantime no money from the EU for Scotland
I just don't see the benefits for Scotland. What am I missing that the SNP can see?
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>>Does the SNP have a clear model for what an independent Scotland would look like?
I believe there is a comprehensive manifesto ready, aimed at a clear demonstration of complete independence of the Auld Enemy, and the reinforcement and revival of Scottish culture.
Tunnocks will produce Mars Bars under licence for deep frying.
Similarly, the Benedictine Order will be given subsidies to establish a winery for local production of Buckie.
The Royal British Hotel on Princes Street will demolished and replaced by a Tram Depot, at a cost of NSP*14 billion. The tramlines to the depot will never be built, after the project goes bust.
Sassenach style sausage-shaped sausages will attract 150% VAT, triple the standard rate, to promote sales of the traditional square offal burgers which have, inexplicably, been in retreat for several years.
Free TV licences, which only support the watching of mainly English television output will be withdrawn from the over 75s and replaced by an Irn Bru allowance.
Currants may only be sold in bisected form, and bacon must be made available by the half-rasher, so as to encourage traditional Scottish thrift
That's it.
*New Scottish Poonds.
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The Scots won't leave the union they are to canny for that.And joining the EU I doubt it.
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>> Currants may only be sold in bisected form
We have a tea-towel with Yorkshire sayings printed on it
Along with such gems as 'It's muck or nettles lad' and 'stop your chunterrin' is 'she's so mean she nip a currant i'two'
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Out for Nout Bromp typical Yorkshire.How Much? When a Yorkshire person is shopping.Similair to my birth province of Groningen.Must be a Northerly thingy.>)
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ExBoss, a Scot born in Bolton, described Yorkshiremen as lobotomised Scots - cheeky sod.
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>> 'she's so mean she nip a currant i'two'
Yes, it must have come from the folk memory. Tykes are like Jocks, with the generosity removed.
Last edited by: Manatee on Tue 16 Oct 12 at 23:10
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See all, 'ear all, and say nowt
Eat all, sup all, and pay nowt
An' if tha ever does owt for nowt
Do it for thissen
Ted
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Fully understood Ted thissen is the main one.Old Viking language I think.>:)
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>>
>>
>> See all, 'ear all, and say nowt
>> Eat all, sup all, and pay nowt
>> An' if tha ever does owt for nowt
>> Do it for thissen
>>
>> Ted
>>
With the slight amend to 'always do it for thissen' I remember that as a jingle on radio Leeds in the seventies.
I've also got same words on a mug at home, bought in York April 1982 after an Easter weekend at Westerdale Hall Youth Hostel.
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What are the bookie's odds on a no vote? Probably too feeble to be worth a fiver punt. But I'd risk a fiver on it (I'm no Minnesota Fats though).
Is it Crankcase who is the betting ace here? What are the odds Crankers? (Sorry if it's someone else... memory like a sieve... mumble burp).
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Perhaps to seal the (hopefully) continued union, we should scrap an England football squad and embrace the Great Britain team. At least Scotland won't lose face so much in World Cup qualifiers.
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>> Perhaps to seal the (hopefully) continued union, we should scrap an England football squad and
>> embrace the Great Britain team. At least Scotland won't lose face so much in World
>> Cup qualifiers.
>>
I don't know. If chosen on merit there would be zero Scottish players.. and would have been zero for the past 10 years at least..
Celtic once won the European Cup. Now Rangers are in receivership and Scotland's footbal team is unlikely to win a game in its World Cup Qualifiers...
Scottish football is rubbish - and that's being kind.
Last edited by: madf on Wed 17 Oct 12 at 14:02
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Celtic are in Champions League group stages this year. With using 4 or 5 Scottish players on average. What proportion of the English teams in Champions League are English players?
Not being picky, I dont know the answer but just wondering?
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The day English fans stop mentioning England once having won the world cup, Scottish people will stop mentioning Celtic having won the European cup before any English team got that far :-)
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Commer did England win the world cup? they kept that quiet!!!
I just thought it was every future world cup and euros that they were going to win????
Last edited by: VxFan on Fri 19 Oct 12 at 00:46
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Just remind me bobby, how many 1/4 finals and semi finals of ANY international football tournament have the Jocks managed to get in to?
Oh and what was the score against Wales the other day, do tell us.
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Silence Zero. just keep sending us the loot thanks.
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Alas I fear, that will happen after independence. Still its worth paying to get rid of the RBS, and you can have its 18 billion deficit as well.
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RBS/Natwest/UK plc as it is now.
And HBoS/Lloyds?
Last edited by: Lygonos on Wed 17 Oct 12 at 20:14
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>> RBS/Natwest/UK plc as it is now.
Its RBS, It may have Natwest Branding where the money is but its still RBS. You can have it back with its liabilities.
>> And HBoS/Lloyds?
Lloyds took over HBOS, (at the pleading of the government I seem to recall) so we are stuck with that tartan pile of poo down south.
Which is a strange thing The Scotts want financial independence, but there is no scottish bank. No commercial bank, or the equivalent of the Bank of England.
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How can there be a Scottish equivalent of the Bank of England? It's the Bank of the UK Government basically - it can print money it doesn't have.
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Exactly, what are the scots going to do to print money they dont have? They cant ask us to print them any. If they use the pound and the BoE they wot have control over their currency and all the agro that brings.
Last edited by: Zero on Wed 17 Oct 12 at 21:15
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Indeed - that's why the desire to 'keep the pound sterling' is just a sop to pacify those jocks who don't want to lose the pound.
I imagine a fully independent Scotland would need a "Bank of the Scottish Government" but the SNP will try to dodge this and any other issue that may put some off.
In the end, these sorts of issues will likely help ensure a 'no' vote.
With respect to the monarchy we'd probably want our monarch back since you got ours after Elizabeth I.
You can keep jug-ears.
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>With respect to the monarchy we'd probably want our monarch back..
As long as you pay to have 'em dug up.
>You can keep jug-ears.
The English Establishment is way ahead of you Lygonos. He was given the title of Prince of Wales, where do you think he'll be going if we get tired of him?
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>> where do you think he'll be going if we get tired of him?
Cornwall?
;-)
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Why Cornwall? Not because of the Duchey of said land surely? He's minted because of where he has land and income. Far further afield than Cornwall.
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An Gof would probably have something to say (or do) about that: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/An_Gof
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>> How can there be a Scottish equivalent of the Bank of England? It's the Bank
>> of the UK Government basically - it can print money it doesn't have.
Depends how you define money!
Little electronic pulses seems to fit the bill these days.
No government, as far as I am aware, has collateral in real assets to back up the notes they print.
It also depends on what you agree is a real asset - gold, cowrie shells, bird feathers........
Confidence is the REAL asset and that is fragile these days.
Last edited by: Roger on Wed 17 Oct 12 at 21:26
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>> Depends how you define money!
You still need a currency (and physical notes/coins for it). And a currency is valued against others etc.
So Scotland would have to have a Scottish "pound" and all that entails. People don't like taking the Scottish notes now that are legal tender. So when they have their own currency then that problem goes away - you'll need to exchange it somewhere.
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The counter to the dissaffected Scots and their perennial griping is for England to hold a referendum. On the issue of freedom from Scottishness.
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I think you'll find griping is one activity that unites the nations.
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>> So Scotland would have to have a Scottish "pound" and all that entails.
>>
Just like the former Irish pound. It had rough parity with the £ sterling, in many areas particularly near the border either currency was accepted.
All the Scots need is a proper national bank and a mint. Then they can coin it in, or out, to their hearts' content. The new currency will be backed by the proven financial stability and expertise of the SNP government, and in an uncertain world investors will doubtless flock to buy bonds issued by the newest celtic tiger.
Or not.
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I think they've said they will continue using the pound. Although I'm not sure what they've said about the ECB and if they would want their own central bank.
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I don't see how they can have a central bank if they are using someone else's currency. They wouldn't be able to print any more money, it couldn't be a lender of last resort because it wouldn't have access to unlimited money, and interest rates would be determined by someone else.
It would only have as much independence as a glorified local council.
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>> I don't see how they can have a central bank if they are using someone
>> else's currency. They wouldn't be able to print any more money, it couldn't be a
>> lender of last resort because it wouldn't have access to unlimited money, and interest rates
>> would be determined by someone else.
>> It would only have as much independence as a glorified local council.
Bit like the Euro then.
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>> It would only have as much independence as a glorified local council.
>>
Which is getting up Salmons nose because he knows he is on a looser. He should be careful what he wishes for.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Thu 18 Oct 12 at 21:27
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>> Celtic are in Champions League group stages this year. With using 4 or 5 Scottish
>> players on average. What proportion of the English teams in Champions League are English players?
>> Not being picky, I dont know the answer but just wondering?
I wouldn't wonder too long, they wont be getting out of the group stages.
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Nah.....The Jockos might have scraped a draw if they'd been up against San Marino.
Sadly..............
What a shambles last night....The Polskis ' couldn't close the roof 'cos it was raining !
We should have had Becky Adlington and Ellie Simmonds as strikers...it was so waterlogged.
Still, thanks to ITV for re-scheduling this afternoon's progs to cover the whole match. My crisps and beer weren't wasted !
Ted
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I had a look at this yesterday to try and find some no-nonsense details.
www.guardian.co.uk/politics/scottish-independence-essential-guide
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I can't see how being independent of the rest of the (current) UK but using our currency is independent. Better perhaps to use the US Dollar...? :-) Can;t be nice for Salmond thinking we can devalue the pound and Scotland is impacted.
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>> Can;t be nice
>> for Salmond thinking we can devalue the pound and Scotland is impacted.
>>
I was in Australia when the UK devalued the pound in the late 1960s. The impact on the UK paid military personnel was dramatic and our overseas allowances had to be increased rapidly.
Salmond has not thought through independence, probably because he knows it will not happen.
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>> Celtic are in Champions League group stages this year. With using 4 or 5 Scottish
>> players on average. What proportion of the English teams in Champions League are English players?
>> Not being picky, I dont know the answer but just wondering?
Scottish Football Association performance director Mark Wotte reckons the demise of the nation's football will only be halted when the country's kids get off Buckfast and burgers.
www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/burgers-and-buckfast-to-blame-for-bleak-future-1386548
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The odds on independence - Bromptonaut
