So Cameron pledges to waste another miraculously surplus 50 Million on yet another Celebration!
Now I`m not being disrespectful in any way, but I do think the Armistice remembrance ceremonies should be allowed to fade away. After almost 70 years since WW2 ended the world has moved on, and so should we, we`ve already shown over the passed years that We as a Nation are grateful for their sacrifices.
Apart from the above sum, he has pledged yet a further 5Million to enable school kids to tour War Graveyards, I can`t see this being of any educational use or of any interest to the Children.
This to me is simply more Conservative propaganda, it is not needed! the Money could be put to much better use by Medical research Institutions, which could benefit more people as a whole. They should be prevented from wasting this money on frivolities, and if they can afford to waste it, they are over-charging the British taxpayer.
Humbug!!!
|
>> So Cameron pledges to waste another miraculously surplus 50 Million on yet another Celebration!
Agree, no need for this
>> from the above sum, he has pledged yet a further 5Million to enable school
>> kids to tour War Graveyards, I can`t see this being of any educational use or
>> of any interest to the Children.
This however is a good idea. My son did it. Its not until you see the huge lists of names (including his great great great grandfathers) or the rows and rows of graves that you have any idea of what it meant.
|
Its not until you see
>> the huge lists of names (including his great great great grandfathers) or the rows and
>> rows of graves that you have any idea of what it meant.
>>
Agreed. I've attended the Ride To The Wall twice at the National Memorial Arboretum, and was one of those presenting a poppy wreath on behalf of our club. You do not realise until you look how many names there actually are even there, two were known to me as colleagues; and it's a much smaller memorial than Thiepval. It's a very humbling experience; the more chilling because you also see the blank part of the wall, which you know will not stay that way for long.
I would like to see some of the money and/or effort put towards a national sprucing up of our war memorials. Perhaps an ideal job for community service offenders, to make some of 'em realise that those names on the memorial, probably no older than them when they died in such horrific circumstances, gave their lives so that they have the freedom to live theirs.
|
I agree with you entirely. I think the only reason people who died in the wars would want to be remembered is to stop it happening again. We've shown as a nation a total inability to learn from the countless sacrifices made in WW1 and WW2.
Clearly visiting war graveyards had little impact on Tony Blair who seemed delighted to have his little wars.
|
Perhaps he could see his way clear to slipping us a couple of mill to help with the completion of the National War Memorial locomotive.........
www.lms-patriot.org.uk/
It's hoped to be complete by 2018
Ted
|
>> Apart from the above sum, he has pledged yet a further 5Million to enable school
>> kids to tour War Graveyards, I can`t see this being of any educational use or
>> of any interest to the Children.
That's one bit I might almost agree with. Properly done, field trips do give kids an insight they'll never get just from textbooks or films. Should be combinable with language stuff too.
We took our two round the Somme - Perrone, Albert, Thiepval etc five years ago in their mid teens. Museum in Perrone and trench museum at Albert were interesting. Looking for the sheer number of others sharing the family name at Thiepval was salutary too.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Thu 11 Oct 12 at 23:24
|
|
Perfectly sound idea. I even suggested to herself whose granfather was killed on the Somme that we take the grandnippers to somewhere near Beavais to see their great great grandfather's stone.
|
but I do think the Armistice remembrance ceremonies should be allowed to fade away.
Ironic choice of words there. Agree that WW1 is now officially in the past since the last soldier actually did fade away. However don't know if you've watched the remembrance services they are more focused on recent and current conflicts than WW1. Spending 50m quid on the event is a joke in the current climate though. WW1 is my period of historical interest, reading a book on it now - to do with Lawrence of Arabia - interesting that it focuses on one Syrian town in particular in the current chapters a town called Aleppo - Western mismanagement of the area in WW1 and WW2 means that it still gets a mention in the news (although naked/topless royalty and dead perverts seem to catch the headlines) - history is ignored at our peril.
|
I can see the the point of commemorating the Armistice, ie in 2018, but at a loss to understand the point of celebrating 1914.
None of the horrendous deaths had happened then, the country (and Germany too) was in joyous mood anticipating a quick war, and everyone was in blissful but deliberate ignorance about what a modern war involved.
There had been examples, which the government and military should have heeded, in the American Civil War and the Franco-Prussian.
It just seems to be a case of looking for something to celebrate, rather than asking the fundamental question, why?
|
>> I can see the the point of commemorating the Armistice, ie in 2018, but at
>> a loss to understand the point of celebrating 1914.
>> It just seems to be a case of looking for something to celebrate, rather than
>> asking the fundamental question, why?
>>
Remember this can be done during the period that our David is in charge.
With this celebration about to be unveiled am I surprised that all of a sudden £500K is found re the Bomber Command Memorial ?
( At least someone was half awake and realised what would hit the fan if this had not happened prior to the latest new idea)
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-19867880
|
After a good long sleep, I`ve been re-thinking my statement about School Children visiting War Graves, particularly as quite alot of you seem to think it a good idea.
Well, I still can`t "get it!", what is the point of it?, is it to instill into the Children whilst their young and vulnerable the "futility and hopelessness of War", with the short, sharp shock of suddenly seeing all the thousands of stark, white Marble tombstones all lined up in rank and file, like a regiment of dead soldiers, and hoping that this will be a life-lasting lesson?
What is He hoping to achieve? - that when this generation reach Adult-hood we will have a Nation of Conscientious objectors?
The reality is that a few years down the line, these same Children will grow-up, these school-trips (and the initial impact) will have been forgotten. Some of them will become politicians, some will go into the Armed Forces. The Politicians will continue to become embroiled in various different disputes, Wars will still break out, and those same Kids that visited the Graves will still be sent to fight and die for other Men`s causes. Wars, and remembering them doesn`t teach us anything!
One the other hand, I`m all in favour of taking Children to see the Graves of great-great Grand-fathers etc. as a family unit. There is purpose and real meaning for the Child that way, which there isn`t with a School-trip, The "Stones" and the Names upon them, mean nothing to them, they are "just" there.
|
>> After a good long sleep, I`ve been re-thinking my statement about School Children visiting War
>> Graves, particularly as quite alot of you seem to think it a good idea.
>>
>> Well, I still can`t "get it!", what is the point of it?, is it to
>> instill into the Children whilst their young and vulnerable the "futility and hopelessness of War",
Its great education - History, Sociology, Geography, Political Science, all reinforced by vivid real life images.
I really cant see anything wrong with it.
|
>Its great education - History, Sociology, Geography, Political Science, all reinforced by vivid real life images.
Agreed 100%.
It is good for our children to know and understand our country, and all that has gone into making it the way it is, good and bad..
And that includes Stone Henge, Castles, Museums, Graveyards and War as well as many other things.
|
>>ts great education - History, Sociology, Geography, Political Science, all reinforced by vivid real life images.
But could you not achieve the same by sitting Children in front of the News when they are showing real-life images of War,destruction, picture of Mass-Graves and other attrocities, Syria /Libya for example, and asking them "how would you like to live and grow-up there?"
Much more thought provoking than a peaceful, tranquil, nicely kept Graveyard.
|
>> >>ts great education - History, Sociology, Geography, Political Science, all reinforced by vivid real life
>> images.
>>
>> But could you not achieve the same by sitting Children in front of the News
>> when they are showing real-life images of War,destruction, picture of Mass-Graves and other attrocities, Syria
>> /Libya for example, and asking them "how would you like to live and grow-up there?"
>> Much more thought provoking than a peaceful, tranquil, nicely kept Graveyard.
No.
|
Why is it an either/or situation?
And surely you've felt the impact of seeing something in real life that you've only previously seen in pictures or on television?
>>Much more thought provoking than a peaceful, tranquil, nicely kept Graveyard.
Oh I would strongly disagree with that. I find a country church graveyard a very thought and emotion provoking place.
|
|
.
Last edited by: Zero on Fri 12 Oct 12 at 14:34
|
|
Damn you're quick.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Fri 12 Oct 12 at 14:35
|
>> more thought provoking than a peaceful, tranquil, nicely kept Graveyard.
Devonite: not really if you think about it. They see that stuff all the time on TV and no doubt have different feelings about it depending on sensibility and so on. But that stuff on the whole is happening to foreign peoples presented as perpetual victims very unlucky compared to us. So children may be horrified by it without feeling all that involved.
A bit different from 'this was a dreadful episode in our own history, colossal horrendous battles all in the end for not much, just a century ago and that's not as long as you think: here's your great great grandfather's stone, (so and so was his son/daughter, you remember him'her don't you? Makes you think eh darling?)'
|
Okey-Cokey! - you`ve all convinced me. Maybe being actually able to walk amongst and touch the Stones may help realise the enormity of the actual waste of life that War is, that is if you consider the freedom we have today as "waste", but thats a different debate.
P.S
I`m rather you didn`t call me "Darling" - people will talk!
Last edited by: devonite on Fri 12 Oct 12 at 16:48
|
Remembrance is very important. I know it isn't all about the Great War, but now that is no longer a living memory it is even more important to make the effort. If anybody doesn't get that, there's no point trying to explain.
No need to spend £50million though.
|
I'm not sure about a celebration specific to the world wars, but I do think that Remembrance Day and all the stuff that goes with it, remembering people who have died for the country whenever/wherever is a good thing.
Don't forget, people in the armed forces have continued dying, despite the end of WWII.
Irrespective of rights and wrongs, politics and media, these are people who died in service of the country. I believe that deserves both respect and remembrance.
I always wear a poppy, I always make a donation. Despite being in South America at the moment, I will still be wearing a poppy. My eldest chooses to do the same.
YMMD, as they say.
Now, whether or not £50m can be better spent elsewhere on the same cause is a different matter.
|
>>Now, whether or not £50m can be better spent elsewhere on the same cause is a different matter.
It Could!
They could "Celebrate" the outcome of their Wars by donating this "Surplus" 50 Million they had lying around to the Care, on-going rehabilitation and rebuilding of the lives of the Maimed "Heroes" that return to us after doing their Duty.
That would be a Proper memorial worth celebrating.
|
Actually when you take the time to read exactly what is proposed it all seems completely unexceptionable. By far the largest proportion £35M, is being spent on the refurbishment of the WWI galleries at the Imperial War Museum and money is being spent over a four year period.
Here are the facts.
www.number10.gov.uk/news/ww1-centenary/
Last edited by: CGNorwich on Fri 12 Oct 12 at 14:27
|
I agree with all that.
It just seems odd to be celebrating the outbreak of war, rather than its conclusion.
|
|
Where are we celebrating the outbreak of war?
|
|
Commemoration (not celebration) is for centenary of start of WWI in 1914.
|
>> Commemoration (not celebration) is for centenary of start of WWI in 1914.
We should wait four years then. Damn - But that would be the next parliament.
|
>>We should wait four years then. Damn - But that would be the next parliament.
>>
As I implied earlier in the tread .
|
>> >> Commemoration (not celebration) is for centenary of start of WWI in 1914.
>>
Not a lot of difference:
com·mem·o·ra·tion/kəˌmeməˈrāSHən/
Noun:
Remembrance, typically expressed in a ceremony.
A ceremony or celebration in which a person or event is remembered:
Actually, why not? Britain came to the aid of a neutral country that had been attacked by its neighbour, as we were obliged to do by international treaty. It's what came later where it all went wrong.
A bit like 1939, in fact, except that we did actually try and do something.
|
>> Where are we celebrating the outbreak of war?
Exactly. I think we're marking the whole event from July/Aug 1914 through to the Armistice and into 1919 for the Iolair disaster and Versailles.
|
november 11 2018 @ 11am
they shall grow not old, as we that are left grow old
Age shall not weary them. nor the years condemn,
At the going down of the sun and in the morning ,
We will remember them.......
|
Back in the days when Britain had a empire a hell of a lot of the population (compared to these days) were in the forces.
The Fleet WAS a fleet. And the army was an army. Because they had to be. Conscription was a definite come time of war.
So obviously, many people had a direct link to the forces - brothers, uncles, dads etc.
These days, with the forces slimmed down - and some would say cut to the bone - there's less of a familial link.
Ask yourself this: do you know any servicemen/women these days?
Maybe the current generation of youngsters need to understand that 'bond' better - the services were a career OR a hostilities-only non-obligatory option. And were it not for those brave men, Britain would not be Britain.
We laugh about Captain Mainwaring and Pike, but by god they would have laid down their lives for the nation. How many would get of their couches if a similar threat to 1940 presented itself these days?
|
I am fairly sure that me donning a TA uniform is going to prevent the Russians detonating a nuclear bomb over london.
Just as much as our current guys donning a uniform and flying to Afghanistan has prevented terrorist attacks or made it safe for Afghan schoolgirls to attend classes.
The nature of the threat has changed, and so has the defence.
|
>>I am fairly sure that me donning a TA uniform is going to prevent the Russians detonating a nuclear bomb over london.
I think it was more about the attitude than the action.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Fri 12 Oct 12 at 16:44
|
|
damn you are nearly as fast as me.
Last edited by: Zero on Fri 12 Oct 12 at 16:45
|
>> >>I am fairly sure that me donning a TA uniform is going to prevent the
>> Russians detonating a nuclear bomb over london.
>>
>> I think it was more about the attitude than the action.
Actually, in 1939 it wasn't, it was all about the action. You are right - the attitude does matter in 2012, and so do the skills required for defence.
|
>> Actually, in 1939 it wasn't, it was all about the action. You are right -
>> the attitude does matter in 2012, and so do the skills required for defence.
>>
Zero, of course it is important.
But for 'my' generation, there was always an awareness - how mum and dad had seen war as kids, how they recall the bombings; how grandad never came home from the russia convoys, how rationing, hoarding and queueing was not a joke, but a reality for a generation.
THOSE are some of the aspects that the yoof of today have to grasp, along with the 'what ifs' surrounding stuff like the German invasion of 1940, the dropping of the bomb on Hiroshima, the stalemate of the Somme and its causes etc etc etc etc
|
Its changed, and it hasnt.
The attitude required today, is to go to work the next day, tramping over the crunch of broken glass from last nights terrorist explosion, just as it was from last nights 1940 Luftwaffe raid.
But as far as donning a uniform and firing a gun is required, we dont need half a million conscripts. We never will again.
|
>>we dont need half a million conscripts. We never will again.
I'm not sure we did then either. What we did need was the mentality and attitude that it brought.
I am sure you know that many railings were cut down in support of the war effort and the need for metal.
How much was that about metal, and how much about the need for a people's attitude?
Surely the country, indeed the world, today shows how its not about might, its about the attitude of the people from whom you need support.
Which was pretty much what Churchill was good at.
|
>> >>we dont need half a million conscripts. We never will again.
>>
>> I'm not sure we did then either. What we did need was the mentality and
>> attitude that it brought.
Mentality and attitude didn't wade ashore on Gold Juno or Sword. Well they did but with half a million conscripts.
|
>> But as far as donning a uniform and firing a gun is required, we dont need half a million conscripts. We never will again.
Never say never Zero. Anything might happen including a catastrophic regression and collapse of technological civilisation (if that is the word). Our great great grandchildren could be fighting like apes with baseball bats and machetes in the ruins over crates of tesco baked beans.
We hope not of course. To minimize the probability we elect people like George W Bush, Tony Blair, Benjamin Netanyahu and God help us perhaps people like that Mormon fellow. We depend on them to keep sociopathic capitalism and sociopathic religions under control and satisfy our every changing whim.
Reassuring don't you think?
|
ww memorial celebration - Zero
