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America will be very keen to exercise due process in these cases. What will happen if the men are found not guilty?
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>> America will be very keen to exercise due process in these cases. What will happen
>> if the men are found not guilty?
I think that's pretty unlikley.......
Hamza will presumably come back here to complete his sentence for UK offences. Much as I'm liberal on fair trial and an advocate of the Human Rights Act he's frankly abused the UK's hospitality and we're well rid.
Some of the others, particular Babar Ahmed who is UK born and as British as I am give me a cause for concern. If he's done something he should be tried here. Ditto the guy looking for UFO's and the music pirate from Sheffield.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Sat 6 Oct 12 at 12:06
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>>Some of the others, particular Babar Ahmed who is UK born and as British as I am give me a cause for concern. If he's done something he should be tried here.
I see no reason why someone should not be extradited to face trial for a crime they have committed elsewhere. We'd have no issue with it if his name was Paul Gadd.
Where it's difficult is this; should you be extradited to another country to face trial for a crime you committed in this country.
If someone was plotting against the UK from another country then would we want them to be brought here for trial or would we expect their country to prosecute them on our behalf?
But then what happens if what they did was not illegal in their country? Can they still be extradited?
Further, what happens if what they did is illegal in their country, but that country decides there is insufficient evidence?
And we should remember that someone born in the UK to legal residents is British. Even if they're horrible.
And if I understand correctly, Babar Ahmad is a UK citizen accused of committing a crime against the US and its law, it was decided that insufficient evidence was held in the UK, and currently has not been found guilty of anything.
Evidence purportedly held by the country that wishes to extradite him, but that refuses to show it to the UK judicial system.
If we take what we read in the media then it would seem he is a scumbag who should be nailed to the nearest wall, but it’s not the basis of our legal system, or at least it isn't supposed to be, that its ok to decide based upon the media stories.
Legally this guy is currently no different to the UFO Seeker yet one we want to stay, and the other we want to go.
Seems to me that we need to go back to the beginning and decide what we want out of an extradition agreement. The US has decided; they want to grab anyone from anywhere who they thing might have offended their laws.
Again, why not, it's their right to seek that agreement. But that doesn't mean other countries should agree.
And we should start from the position that the UK's starting position should be to protect its own citizens, before it tries to politically please other countries.
This does not indicate my feelings about terrorism and appropriate punishment.
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Good riddance.
I wonder just how much all this has cost the British taxpayer?
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Millions. Legal Aid and benefit payments over the years. Hopefully he'll get the red-neck wing of the US prison he'll be a guest at. No Legal Aid in the US either !
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Will he have any offensive weapons removed?
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>> Millions. Legal Aid and benefit payments over the years.
Legal aid will have gone to help keep lawyers in the life they are accustomed to. The clever lawyers will have paid very little tax but may have spent their money on expensive houses and cars and servants. So the money will have helped the British economy (in effect another form of quantitative easing).
Benefit payments would have been less than the cost of keeping him in prison.
>> No Legal Aid in the US either !
>>
Not too sure about that.
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Miranda:
You have the right to an attorney.
If you cannot afford an attorney, one will be provided for you.
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>> >> Millions. Legal Aid and benefit payments over the years.
>>
>> Legal aid will have gone to help keep lawyers in the life they are accustomed
>> to.
Unlikely, Legal aid rates are a fraction of what they would normally charge. The top lawyers that do the top cases it's about 25%.
>> Benefit payments would have been less than the cost of keeping him in prison.
>>
No doubt.
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>>I wonder just how much all this has cost the British taxpayer?
From the Wiki page about Abu Hamza and his family;
"Costs
On 18 January 2007, Lord Justice Hughes made an order for the recovery of the full costs of the defence of the race-hate charges, estimated in excess of 1 million pounds. This judgement was based on his view that "the story I have been told today (by Abu Hamza) is simply not true" that he [Abu Hamza] had no share in a £220,000 house in Greenford, west London. Abu Hamza had claimed it belonged to his sister. The court also found that Abu Hamza was contributing £9000 a year for private education for his children.[25] The Daily Mail reported in 2009 that the TaxPayers' Alliance estimated that the father-of-eight Abu Hamza had so far cost Britain £2.75 million in welfare payments, council housing and legal costs.[26]"
Nonetheless, there isn't really an alternative unless you decide who is and who is not entitled to a free defence by whether or not you like them.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Sat 6 Oct 12 at 15:13
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>
>> And we should start from the position that the UK's starting position should be to
>> protect its own citizens, before it tries to politically please other countries.
Agreed. Abul Hamza aint British tho, so he can eff off as soon as you like. I do hope big bubba likes his boys with deformities, aint no virgins for martyrs where he is heading.
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>> Abul Hamza aint British tho, so he can eff off as soon as you like
abso-f-ing-lutely.
I don't think anybody should be able to claim that level of support from a society they attack. Ought to be terms of a visa - abuse our country, our people, or our laws, and out you go.
If you don't want to go home, then behave yourself respectfully and respectably while you're here.
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Surprisingly, according to wikipedia, he is a British Citizen by virtue of a three year marriage.
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Great. So try him for high treason and hang him.
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That's kind of the point, we should try Brits before others do, if they committed the crime in the UK.
We should not extradite a Brit unless we are in possession of sufficient evidence to do so.
Whether not we like him.
Throws light on the US Immigration form. Ultimately they do not have to prove you did anything criminal over which the US has jurisdiction, they just have to show that you lied on your immigration form and throw you out for that.
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>> Throws light on the US Immigration form. Ultimately they do not have to prove you
>> did anything criminal over which the US has jurisdiction, they just have to show that
>> you lied on your immigration form and throw you out for that.
>>
I didn't use one last time I went last year, does it still ask lots silly questions such as asking if you are a terrorist?
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Apart from the fact that he didn't commit treason and that there's no death penalty of course.
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>> Apart from the fact that he didn't commit treason and that there's no death penalty
>> of course.
>>
On 8 August 2005, it was reported that the UK Government was considering bringing prosecutions for treason against a number of British Islamic clerics who have publicly spoken positively about acts of terrorism against civilians in Britain, or attacks on British soldiers abroad, including the 7 July London bombings and numerous attacks on troops serving in Iraq and Afghanistan. Later that year prosecutors indicted Abu Hamza al-Masri for inciting murder (he was convicted in February 2006).
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Treason crucially needs your actions to have the purpose to help a foreign government overthrow make war or overthrow the government of the UK so I don't see how he could be charged for treason and indeed he wasn't. Of course there is no death penalty for either treason or murder.
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>> Abul Hamza aint British tho, so he can eff off as soon as you
>>
As Mark says, Hamza is British.
If he wasn't, he just might have had better rights not to be sent abroad:
www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/immigration/9418163/The-foreign-criminals-we-dont-try-to-deport.html
21 Jul 2012
"Two hundred and fifty foreign criminals who should have been deported at the end of their prison sentences were allowed to stay in Britain on human rights grounds last year without their claims being challenged in court.
...
figures, disclosed to The Telegraph under the Freedom of Information Act, show that there were 56 such cases in 2008, rising to 80 in 2009, 217 in 2010 and 250 in 2011 ..."
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I don't think one of the others is, wasn't one of them the only person to have UK citizenship removed?
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>> >> America will be very keen to exercise due process in these cases. What will
>> happen
>> >> if the men are found not guilty?
>>
>> I think that's pretty unlikley.......
>>
>> Hamza will presumably come back here to complete his sentence for UK offences.
Nah he wont. Uk offences take precedent over extradition, he has already been tried sentenced and served time for the "hatred" crimes in the UK, thats what helped delay his extradition.
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Well - he's hooked off then!
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Dunno whether people with missing limbs or members will find that amusing Roger, although I do, a bit, being as heartless and coarse as many here.
The Persian comedian Omid Jalili does a rather good Abu Hamza, leaping up and down bawling insanely. It isn't very realistic because the ghastly Hamza is usually quietly spoken, but it does convey the essence of his presence in this country.
He's an 'ornamental baboon'. I learned today from the comic that the pet trade gives this name to tarantula spiders.
Last edited by: Armel Coussine on Sat 6 Oct 12 at 16:08
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It's not all bad news for Abu.
He has just won 184 cuddly toys on the teddy grabber at the Heathrow departure lounge.
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Ok this time i'll be more polite you won't have to deleate this one.
Electric chair him and his friends asap.
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>> Electric chair him and his friends asap.
>>
Should be simple enough to hook him up to the mains.
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>> Electric chair him and his friends asap.
Has any of them committed a capital crime? Some US States have the death penalty for this and that but I have a feeling that it's very rare in Federal courts if it is there at all.
You can't just top them because they seem nasty Bigtee. Where would that ever end? We'd all be goners eventually. And anyway, it would send the wrong signals about democracy, snort!
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He should be hung out to dry!
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>> Babar Ahmed who is UK born and as British as I am
I wonder if Babar Ahmed considers himself as British as you, Bromptonaut?
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He's not to be confused with Abu Ben Adam. tinyurl.com/9gjcds4
Last edited by: L'escargot on Sat 6 Oct 12 at 17:27
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Barber Ahmed,strange case first arrested kicked seven bells by the police then released.Locked up without trial as a terrorist.British born University educated engineer.
Something not right here.We live in strange times.
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>> Barber Ahmed
>> Something not right here.We live in strange times.
>>
Which particular bit is 'not right'?
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Abu Hamza et alia - Bromptonaut
