News came in this lunchtime of a GMP policewoman being shot dead and a second one critically injured.
Sadly, the second one has also died. These events took place in Hattersley, a Manchester overspill estate on the edge of the Pennines. Our evening paper has been running a story for some weeks about a couple of guys wanted for two murders with warnings not to approach.
It would seem the two officers had been called to an incident and were shot at the scene. Later, one of the wanted men went to a local police station where he was arrested on suspicion of 3 murders, including a father and son, in which a grenade was used.
A very sad day for the police service...In my day, we were very protective of our policewomen. They had less protection then, not even a staff. They generally kept to duties such as missing people, child matters and rapes. With the equality laws, I guess they wanted to be doing the same duties as the men, quite rightly.
I've always had a feeling that some of them could be very vulnerable in some situations although in today's sad case, a bullet would have had the same results on anyone.
A sad, sad day. RIP girls.
Ted
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It is very sad indeed, I don't think the sex of the officers really made much different, if it was a 20 stone bloke he would have still been shot dead.
It is frightening and thugs such as will stop at nothing including shooting two police officers dead.
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Noted that he gave himself up.....
Probably guessing that he would be dead, if the police came for him.
I guess that he will never be released - assuming they've got the guilty party, of course.
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>> I guess that he will never be released - assuming they've got the guilty party,
>> of course.
Three 30 year sentences to run concurrently, out after 20-25 years.
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>>Three 30 year sentences to run concurrently, out after 20-25 years
I reckon 3 lifes concurrently with a minimum tariff of 40 years.
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Very sad that two officers have been killed. And going about their duty without realising the risk that was at that location just waiting for them.
I find it strange how he turned himself in so soon after killing two officers. If it was him that shot the officers of course. Because he was up for two murders before. He's in a lot more trouble now and would likely never get out.
Details of what happened will no doubt come out but a shocking day. This country gets worse all the time.
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>>I guess that he will never be released - assuming they've got the guilty party, of course.
Today the European Court of Human Rights spoke
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-19630617
Juliet Lyon, of the Prison Reform Trust, said Mr Grayling should review the 3,500 people still serving over their tariff.
"It is shaming to have so many people locked up in our prisons, not for what they have done but for what they might do in the future," she said.
"Many of these prisoners are condemned to years of uncertainty during which time they must somehow prove, from the confines of a bleak overcrowded jail, that they no longer present a risk to the public."
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>> "It is shaming to have so many people locked up in our prisons, not for
>> what they have done but for what they might do in the future," she said.
>>
>> "Many of these prisoners are condemned to years of uncertainty during which time they must
>> somehow prove, from the confines of a bleak overcrowded jail, that they no longer present
>> a risk to the public."
Seems like a plan to me.
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>> Today the European Court of Human Rights spoke
>>
>> www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-19630617
The ECHR did not rule against the indeterminate sentence as such. Human rights were breached because prisoners were not given the means (courses passed etc) to prove they were fit for release.
Catch 22.
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Their only right is to be treated within the law. If the law says they can be locked up indefinitely and treated in a proscribed manner, then in my view their rights have been met.
But like I say, prison has no place in our society. A murderer of two police officers needs simply to be removed. Permanently and within the law without any ongoing issues or costs.
Sad to be killed doing your job. And unfair.
Reoffending rates from people permenently removed? Zero.
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>> Reoffending rates from people permenently removed? Zero.
Alas, the number of unsafe convictions is not Zero. Your permanence needs some way to be reversed, just in case.
Last edited by: Zero on Tue 18 Sep 12 at 15:36
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>>Your permanence needs some way to be reversed
No. Society simply needs to decide whether it can accept the wrongful death of a number in return for permanent removal of the greater number.
This is a societal decision, not an individual matter.
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Think you'll find thats murder. The individual the state murdered might think it mattered.
Oh and by the way, Hitler thought the same as you.
Last edited by: Zero on Tue 18 Sep 12 at 15:39
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No, murder is outside the law.
And the needs of the many...........
Hitler did not think the same as me. Neither do I think the same as him.
And that's a puerile shot not worthy of you.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Tue 18 Sep 12 at 15:41
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>> Hitler did not think the same as me. Neither do I think the same as
>> him.
>>
>> And that's a puerile shot not worthy of you.
Not at all, its actually true, sounds exactly like his policies and ramblings. If you are going to spout like Hitler at least stand up and take the salute.
Last edited by: Zero on Tue 18 Sep 12 at 15:46
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Lets not hijack this thread in this direction.
For this one case, if he is indeed the man who shot the two WPCs I think Mark has got the penalty right.
I understand the point about unsafe convictions.
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>>This is a societal decision, not an individual matter.
So basically you mean a political decision.
No thanks.
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>>So basically you mean a political decision.
Just because you are not capable of understanding what I said, you shouldn't rely on your own inaccurate translation.
However, I take another point about this isn't the time/place/thread.
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Society makes decisions of this nature by asking our politicians to make them for us.
It's really not that hard to decipher your stuff.
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>> Their only right is to be treated within the law. If the law says they
>> can be locked up indefinitely and treated in a proscribed manner, then in my view
>> their rights have been met.
I'd agree with that in principle. However, unlike most other countries the UK has no constitution to limit the scope of laws or any real checks/balances on executive power. The PM has, see recent re-shuffle, extensive powers of patronage. Parliament is whipped on all important legislation and the powers of the Lords are limited to delay.
Nearly fourty years ago Lord Hailsham railed against the elective dictatorship. But then his lot got back in power and he forgot again.
Against that background the Human Rights Act and the convention provide a few constitutional backstops against unjust administrative action. As I said above it's not the indeterminate sentence that's the problem but the failure to resource its operation.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Tue 18 Sep 12 at 16:11
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Yes
Last edited by: Meldrew on Tue 18 Sep 12 at 14:13
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Very sad indeed. It always is when someone serving the community gets killed.
I do not generally support the routine arming of police, but I would have thought that if they were going to arrest a suspected and assumed to be violent murderer then armed police should have been there?
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>> I do not generally support the routine arming of police, but I would have thought
>> that if they were going to arrest a suspected and assumed to be violent murderer
>> then armed police should have been there?
>>
From the BBC report it appears that this was a routine call to an "empty" house with no warning that the gunman was at the property.
Very sad, and a reminder of what the B (and G)iB can face at any time
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In this case, Zips, I get the impression that it was just a routine call out to an ordinary house.
Hundreds of cases every day for domestic disputes, damage, all sorts of run of the mill stuff.
Just happened the wrong bloke was there.
Hattersley, of course has another claim to notoriety......Wardle Brook Avenue, now demolished, where Brady/Hindley went about their business.
Ted
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Now you can see why the rest of the worlds police force are armed.
In prison this pfd will be a martar he should have just shot himself, rather than be mr big inside.
Last edited by: VxFan on Tue 18 Sep 12 at 21:06
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Yes a sad day, it puts whinging about a speeding ticket into perspective. What a coward, gave himself up rapidly when he realised the next lot of plods would be armed and would shoot to kill if given half a chance.
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People have been saying how bad this murderer is, and how cowardly to give himself up to avoid being shot.
Actually like all too many people who end up in jail he is clearly half-witted at best. The behaviour of a panicky, none-too-bright feral eleven-year-old. With an adult body and a pistol for heaven's sake.
The American Wild West must have been swarming with such people at one time. Jolly glad I wasn't there.
Last edited by: Armel Coussine on Tue 18 Sep 12 at 15:51
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I think in this instance, justice would have been him cornered by armed officers and they opened fire. Providing he was armed at the time otherwise it would be murder.
We are all assuming it was him that shot the police officers - probably was and he's reflected on the likely outcome, i.e. him being possibly killed.
Last edited by: rtj70 on Tue 18 Sep 12 at 15:50
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Good lord.
We have now moved to the belief that an armed posses was going to be sent out to hunt him down and kill him.
For gawds sake lets get a perspective. Yes its sad, two unarmed offices shot by what is clearly some kind of physco. Fortunately, in this country its rare, due in no small part to the rest of the population not being physcos.
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I am saddened to hear of the deaths and even more saddened to see how quickly a serious thread descended into puerile insults .....
Those who call for the death penalty for the killing of a policeman or woman would do well to remember this case....
news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/january/28/newsid_3393000/3393807.stm
I do not condone killings whether lawful or unlawful...
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Just named on BBC News 24 as Fiona Bone, 33 and Nicola Hughes 26.
According to the Chief, A report was made to the local police about a burglary at the house.
Possibly made by the gunman wanting to lure the police into a trap before giving himself up.
It's reported that he went into the street at the arrival of the girls and started shooting, also using a grenade.
The shots and an explosion tie in with what a local window cleaner heard.
The arrested man is Dale Cregan, wanted by the police for many months.
Ted
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Terrible news Ted, I caught the breaking story on the radio at work earlier but hadn't heard of the second fatality. Some comfort that the perp is off the street now.
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Yes - not the time or place for a discussion on capital punishment, but truly a sad day, as are all days when people who put themselves in peril for the rest of us, suffer death & injury.
These lasses were just as much heroines, in their way, as are the men & women in the forces in Afghanistan.
I concur with posters theorising that the alleged offender thought that discretion was the better part of valour and surrendered to avoid instant retribution.
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>> The arrested man is Dale Cregan, wanted by the police for many months.
>>
Just watched the GMP live news conference. Surprised that unlike the normal procedure of keeping details of alleged criminal secret, they were openly stating the name of the alleged murderer as if he had been tried and convicted.
His lawyers will have a field day claiming that he has no chance of a fair trial based on public statements just made by GMP.
The murderer, whoever it was, was callous and calculating in the extreme in drawing these two women PCs to the house on false pretences and then killing them in cold blood.
news.sky.com/story/986675/policewomen-shot-dead-in-manchester-named
Sir Peter Fahey, chief constable of Greater Manchester Police, said fugitive Dale Cregan or someone else made a call alleging a burglary had been committed at an address in Hattersley and when the officers arrived they were attacked with a gun and a grenade.
Sir Peter said Miss Bone was a "calm, gentle woman", an "excellent bobby" and had been in the middle of planning her wedding.
He also paid tribute to Miss Hughes, describing her as a "chatterbox" and a "great bobby" who was "always smiling".
Speaking at a news conference, Sir Peter descibed what happened: "We believe that Dale Cregan was in a house in Abbey Gardens overnight and at some point this morning has either himself made a call or have somebody else make a call in reporting a burglary…
"So, as would be routine, two unarmed officers were sent to the scene. When they arrived it appears then that Cregan emerged into the road and killed these two officers.
"A firearm was used and a grenade was also used."
Last edited by: John H on Tue 18 Sep 12 at 16:35
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He's not likely to serve time in a normal prison is he. He must have some mental issues to do what he did today - lure officers to a premises, shoot them dead, then turn himself into a police station.
What a terrible waste of life.
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I doubt the perp decided after killing the WPCs to turn himself in - it would've been his plan from the start.
Presumably he had no further bullets/bombs with which to kill more of the "enemy" or however he chooses to justify his acts.
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>> doubt the perp decided after killing the WPCs to turn himself in - it would've been his plan from the start.
It does seem that way. Which for this particular crime, a death penalty might seem appropriate. He decided this morning to kill some police officers before then turning himself in.
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The brother of PC David Rathband has been quoted as saying it's now time to arm all British police officers.
It'll happen one day...but..I'm damned glad I'm out of it before it becomes so.
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>> It'll happen one day...
But not yet I think. Armed police are out in force today according to the BBC, but they've got the main guy innit?
A local mad-dog freelance hitman who couldn't get it together to escape from Manchester I ask you... and decided to go out in a blaze of anti-climax by shooting unarmed copperettes, poor darlings... half-witted doesn't begin to describe it. No doubt we will have to pay for a glass eye for the fellow.
God what a bunch of baboons humans are.
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They are armed, where and when required. Would arming these two lasses, who are reported to have walked into a trap, have saved their lives? Dont think so.
In the USA 173 armed officers were killed in 2011. In the uk 1 was killed in 2011, and he was blown up by a bomb in NI.
Last edited by: Zero on Tue 18 Sep 12 at 19:53
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As Z says it was a trap - or so it seems. There is a difference between armed police and a specialised team with arms. The latter will have body armour, helmets etc. A typical armed cop has a side gun.
But the question this raises for me (and it might not have helped today) is... should police have vests that are both stab and bullet resistant? In Manchester I don't think they are and might that have made a difference today.
I hope they also round up those that hid this criminal and also lock them up.
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As far as I know stab vests are optional but coppers don't like wearing them as they are heavy and it slows them down etc. I think on some missions they do need to wear them.
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There is a difference between stab vests and ballistic vests. The former offers some protection from bladed weapons and the latter from low velocity rounds. Everyday wear is the former.
The wearing was more or less compulsory but ultimately you have the choice.
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>>I hope they also round up those that hid this criminal and also lock them up.
+1
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The question of routine arming comes and goes and as an AFO I had no issue with carrying firearms BUT other than ARV work it was only on pre-planned jobs.
The issue as I see it is that in every case of a Police Officer being shot on the mainland they were dealing with routine incidents. Cameron was aluding to the increase in ARVs and investment in training. That's all very well but they are not there at the time of the initial incident which can be over in seconds.
If the two Officers in Manchester had been armed would it have made any difference? Probably not as they may have been caught be surprise with their weapons holstered.
Do I agree with routine arming? Yes, but the whole style of policing as we know it would have to change to a more stand off than hands on approach and that is not going to happen for a long time. The public would not like that. Unfortunately there will be more casualties before there is a change if ever.
I would also like to express my deepest sympathy to the families, loved ones, friends and colleagues of PC Nicola Hughes and PC Fiona Bone.
Last edited by: Fullchat on Tue 18 Sep 12 at 21:39
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>> Do I agree with routine arming? Yes, but the whole style of policing as we
>> know it would have to change to a more stand off than hands on approach
>> and that is not going to happen for a long time. The public would not
>> like that. Unfortunately there will be more casualties before there is a change if ever.
Are we not moving there now? I mean ike a two tier force, Unarmed lightly protected PCSO's and fully kitted out warranted officers?
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>>Unfortunately there will be more casualties before there is a change if ever.
And there exists a very real possibility that the number of casualties will rise after such a change.
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Today's victims are already on the Police Memorial Trust Roll of Honour.
www.policememorial.org.uk/index.php?page=greater-manchester-police
No doubt more, sadly, will follow.
Ted
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I hope whilst they have hold of him, some of their Truncheons accidentally bump into some of his "soft-spots"! - shame if they leave no bruises for him to use as evidence of infringements to his "Human? Rights"
Sorry!- Scrub that, it would be unethical to advocate the use of a "Damn good hiding".
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Really not sure a nutter like him is going to be bothered by a kicking.
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>> not sure a nutter like him is going to be bothered by a kicking.
I'm afraid that's quite convincing. Being kicked or stabbed, or kicking or stabbing others, may be the default way for a cat like that to remind himself that he is alive. Probably sees that popped left eye as a badge of honour.
There are people who are genuinely no use to man or beast. They ought to be netted and rehabilitated in childhood, but the systems are very porous.
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If it can be conclusively proven that he was the perpetrator then hang him. However since my last incident with a bunch of prevaricating policemen and Hillsborough et al, I have sadly become very much a non supporter. Doubly sad because I have had a very long connection with the service through my Father and many of his colleagues and also started target shooting with the Met from a very young age. I am sure that not all are like it and that the individuals hands are tied by red tape and all manner of unnecessary 'Horlicks'. I can clearly recall my Father stating 30 years ago that the job had become a bit of a paperwork nightmare.
R.I.P. Girls.
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Having no legal knowledge I have to admit to wondering why sentences are commonly served concurrently rather than consecutively? To save space in prison perhaps. Why can't someone who commits 3 murders @ 20 years each be made to serve 60 years?
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>> Having no legal knowledge I have to admit to wondering why sentences are commonly served
>> concurrently rather than consecutively? To save space in prison perhaps. Why can't someone who commits
>> 3 murders @ 20 years each be made to serve 60 years?
They do that in the states. You end up with sentences in the hundreds of years range. That all gets a bit silly. It would easily be solved if a life sentence really mean life.
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+ Zero! It is so sensible and obvious, that it won't happen!
Last edited by: Meldrew on Wed 19 Sep 12 at 08:50
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Yes. Arm them all, including the bloke whose actions caused the death of Ian Tomlinson. Now he had form AND was then let back into the force. He'd have been good with a Webley!!
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>> Just watched the GMP live news conference. Surprised that unlike the normal procedure of keeping
>> details of alleged criminal secret, they were openly stating the name of the alleged murderer
>> as if he had been tried and convicted.
The PM's comments may have sailed close to the wind as well. Subsequently the Attorney General has issued words of advice to the press on reporting of the matter.
Article on Guardian website:
www.guardian.co.uk/law/2012/sep/20/police-shootings-contempt-not-fit-purpose
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>> >> Just watched the GMP live news conference. Surprised that unlike the normal procedure of
>> keeping
>> >> details of alleged criminal secret, they were openly stating the name of the alleged
>> murderer
>> >> as if he had been tried and convicted.
>>
>> The PM's comments may have sailed close to the wind as well. Subsequently the Attorney
>> General has issued words of advice to the press on reporting of the matter.
>>
>> Article on Guardian website:
>>
>> www.guardian.co.uk/law/2012/sep/20/police-shootings-contempt-not-fit-purpose
>>
Further development
www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/sep/24/dale-cregan-judge-media-trial
"The judge presiding over the case of Dale Cregan, the man accused of the murder of two police officers earlier this month, has warned the media, the police and politicians about the publication of material that may be prejudicial to a fair trial and of "profound consequences" if restraint is not exercised.
.... His Honour Judge Andrew Gilbart QC made an order under the Contempt of Court Act preventing the reporting of any proceedings in the matter until after the conclusion of the trial "or further order". ....
"The chief constable has, as one would expect of him, talked frankly and movingly of the force's sense of loss at the death of the two officers, and of the risks which police officers must face. I am not concerned at those very proper expressions of loss by him or by others. My concerns relate to the material which has been published and to the press conference answers and accounts, which have been widely disseminated on the internet, in broadcasts and in newspapers."
He said the circumstances of the deaths of the two officers, what is said to have occurred before, and what is said to be the background to them, had also been the subject of a great deal of comment by the chief constable, and material had appeared on the Greater Manchester police website and had been reported widely. There had also been comment from politicians "including those of the greatest seniority", the judge added.
"The press and media coverage of such other material has continued since Dale Cregan was charged. For example, one of the broadsheets on my Saturday morning breakfast table published material doing more than to report the nature of the charges against him and the other defendants."
.....
He said that some of the extensive material that had been published in the press, or broadcast on the radio or television, or disseminated by the police "has dealt with issues and evidence which may be relevant, not just to Dale Cregan's case, but also to the cases of those who were charged some weeks ago in respect of the deaths of two other men".
"But I must emphasise in the strongest terms that now he has been charged, the time has come for that flow of material to cease."
Due process is an important safeguard, not just for any defendant, the judge said, but also for the relatives of the victims and the public interest in seeing justice done. He said the restraint and respect for due process should extend to the presence of material on the websites of the broadcasting media, newspapers, or the police "or indeed, anyone else". He said the principle applied as much to whatever material or comment had been published already and was maintained in the public domain as it did to material newly published after his comments. "
Does that mean that this thread has to be deleted/hidden?
One for the mods and car4play to decide.
Last edited by: John H on Mon 24 Sep 12 at 16:13
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>> Does that mean that this thread has to be deleted/hidden?
At the least locked until further instruction appears I imagine.
"But I must emphasise in the strongest terms that now he has been charged, the time has come for that flow of material to cease."
Up to those in charge ultimately.
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We are not privy to any information outside that which is already in the public domain. We can only discuss and hypothesise about what is already known. We are not providing "any flow of material"
The law really has no control over that which is already in the public domain, and needs to get to grips with that fact.
Last edited by: Zero on Mon 24 Sep 12 at 20:43
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Yes it is very sad Teddy, sad to think he'll be looked after now, sad to think he'll have a warm bed every night,
sad to think he'll get 3 meals per day, sad to think he even has certain rights.
I know what I would do with he - but I couldn't say that on here.
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Twenty years ago when we were living in Hastings (St, Leonards) I used to regularly tune a DI's car.
We used to have a chat over a cup of tea and one day he asked me if I'd ever considered joining the Police, as they were recruiting people 'of my age'
I did actually play with the idea but decided to stick with what I knew best and enjoyed doing.
Anyway, having listened to the Radio 5 Live debate about yesterdays slaying, and how plod has to deal with the drunks, the druggies, and the head cases, well, one certainly has to be a "special type" of person to do that job IMHO.
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It's time to toughen up this country it is far too soft lets arm the coppers and the robbers may think twice, the drug dealers may get shot what a pity.!!
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>> It's time to toughen up this country it is far too soft lets arm the
>> coppers and the robbers may think twice, the drug dealers may get shot what a
>> pity.!!
You mean the same way the US has achieved its miniscule crime rate?
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Extract from www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-19641398 "Why British police don’t have guns"
But despite the loss of two of his officers, Greater Manchester Chief Constable Sir Peter Fahy was quick to speak in support of the status quo.
"We are passionate that the British style of policing is routinely unarmed policing. Sadly we know from the experience in America and other countries that having armed officers certainly does not mean, sadly, that police officers do not end up getting shot."
But one thing is clear. When asked, police officers say overwhelmingly that they wish to remain unarmed.
A 2006 survey of 47,328 Police Federation members found 82% did not want officers to be routinely armed on duty, despite almost half saying their lives had been "in serious jeopardy" during the previous three years.
It is a position shared by the Police Superintendents' Association and the Association of Chief Police Officers.
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>> It is a position shared by the Police Superintendents' Association and the Association of Chief Police Officers.
And there we have it.
I don't think it's just shrewd assessment of the added risks to everyone if every copper were tooled up. I think the police are actually proud of being an unarmed force with a good reputation in the outside world. It marks out their separateness, and their and our Britishness.
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>> But one thing is clear. When asked, police officers say overwhelmingly that they wish to
>> remain unarmed.
It's not just the traditional British Way that has police officers not wish to be armed.
It's also the huge witch-hunt afterwards, the thought that you are on your own, just for doing your job to the best of your ability. Why should you or your family have to go through all that?
That would have been my reason for not doing so, I've seen it at first hand. There'd have to be a huge change in support for the indiviual doing their job.
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I was shocked by it. AC has the analysis right. We missed most of it as we were on holiday and travelling home. Fired up BBC News 24 at 3.00am was disgusted to find it was relegated to 3rd place preceded by some childish posturing by the US President and his opponent.
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"Step forward now, Policeman.
How shall I deal with you?
Have you always turned the other cheek?
To my Church have you been true?"
The policeman squared his shoulders and said,
"No, Lord I guess I ain't,
Because those of us who carry badges
Can't always be a Saint.
I've had to work most Sundays,
And at times my work was rough,
and sometimes I've been violent,
Because the streets are awfully tough.
But I never took a penny,
That wasn't mine to keep,
I worked a lot of overtime
When the bills just got too steep.
And I never passed a cry for help,
Though at times I shook with fear.
And sometimes, God forgive me,
I've wept unmanly tears.
I know I don't deserve a place
among the people here.
They never wanted me around
Except to calm their fear.
If you've a place for me here, Lord
It needn't be so grand.
I never expected or had too much,
But if you don't, I'll understand."
There was silence all around the Throne
Where the Saints had often trod.
As the policeman waited quietly,
For the judgement of his God.
"Step forward now, policeman,
You've borne your burdens well.
Come walk a beat on Heaven's streets,
You've done your time in Hell."
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John, the CPS don't grant bail, courts and custody Sergeants do that. This man was on police bail if I recall, meaning that the custody Sgt bailed him. Likely because considerable further investigation is needed and there simply wasn't the evidence at the time to charge him. You simply cannot get tugh if you don't have evidence.
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Sorry, I meant to continue: one of the main risks in arming officers is the risk that the gun will be taken from them in confrontations where armed force isn't needed or justified.
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>> one of the main risks in arming officers is the
>> risk that the gun will be taken from them in confrontations where armed force isn't
>> needed or justified
....because the style of British policing means considerably more contact with the public than the stand offish policing of some other countries.
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You just can't blame the CPS or the custody officers for the bailing of prisoners under these circumstances. It's the law. If there is not enough evidence to bring charges then the person must be either bailed or released as a free man.
The government/parliament stipulates that course of action.
Ted
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A question for Teddy.
I was watching an old Colin Fry program, and he was talking to a woman named Marie from a Manchester suburb who's young daughter Helen disappeared one night over 10 years ago on her way home.
I wondered if Helen's body was ever found.
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Don't know about that one, Bonzo. Probably need a surname. There are a few murders I recall from 50+ years ago which remain unsolved.
I was coming to the end of a night shift in the old information room when I got a 999 call from a guy on his way to work who'd found a man's body on some waste land. I had the pleasure of getting the Detective Ch.Super out of bed, after getting a road patrol crew to telephone me...the press listened in to the radio...and go to the phone box and detain the man, just in case.
It must have been 20 years later when I read in the paper that a man had been convicted of the crime........they never gave up, and no DNA then !
Ted
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Yes a very sad day Ted nobody deserves to die that way.One of the Daughters best friend is a police officer a young women I have known her as a child.I always tell her to be carefull out there she smiles at me.
I grew up with armed police but in those days we used to recieve a clip around the ear from the police.I did once climbing in a tree with my mate.Times and people have changed.
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Wow the Police were well tooled up in the clip of Cregan being delivered to Court. They must think there's someone that loves him enough to try to spring him...
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-19671873
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Tooling up is bit late now.
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>> Wow the Police were well tooled up in the clip of Cregan being delivered to
>> Court. They must think there's someone that loves him enough to try to spring him...
>>
>>
>> www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-19671873
..................or to waste him!
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Yeah right, like they would get away with that.
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A very sad day. - RattleandSmoke
