When I first started work ( well proper work anyway ) around 1979, most things were still handwritten. Or if you were lucky enough to have access to such a facility really important things could be dictated to a typist.
To this day, some things we process, contracts etc for example are still traditionally written out on triplicate books with terms and conditions printed on the back and space for signatures of the agreeing parties and so on. Not so common now but it still happens.
My first boss was a stickler for the little things. He insisted that anyone meeting with a customer of the company for any reason was dressed in a quality dark suit, a white or blue shirt and a sober but silk tie. Decent and clean shoes of course and a leather briefcase. If using a company car to visit the customer, it had to be immaculately clean inside and out. He instructed everyone that if the car got dirty on the way to a customer visit (perhaps a long journey on a filthy day), that it should be run through a car wash before entering the customer's premises or being parked outside it.
But his big thing was the pen. He hated to see anyone using a chewed Bic or similar to write out a customer's order. He didn't insist on a Mont Blanc or anything but claimed that he didn't want an order for several thousand pounds worth of goods written with anything much less than a Parker.
I suffer a little bit from that rigidly enforced discipline to this day. I can't attend a field visit with one of our reps in a dirty car any more than I could attend it naked and I certainly couldn't hand a cheap plastic pen over to a customer to sign a contract.
Ideally, I'd use a fountain pen, I love them. Trouble is, they don't work on triplicate books...
Are you a pen snob or not? Is it indeed snobbery or is it pride? Does anyone else care about such things?
Last edited by: Humph D'Bout on Sat 25 Aug 12 at 10:27
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>>dressed in a quality dark suit
ASDA or Tesco?
;>)
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I use a big phallic Operation Zeus ball point in work - Operation Zeus was the code-name for the Police Olympic operation. I nicked it from my wife who acquired it in work. Someone at the Bureau nicked it the other day, but given its girth was easily spotted from a distance. I was in a work meeting the other day and two of the nine present were making painstaking notes in their big foolscap notebooks with fountain pens. Including my "partner" in work. I hate fountain pens, designed by right handed fascists, no good for a south paw.
My favourite ever pen was one stolen from a doctor. It was a Sheaffar. Heavy and stiff it was branded with the Viagra trade mark...raised a few eyebrows in work.
Last edited by: R.P. on Sat 25 Aug 12 at 10:33
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Ironically enough, despite my ocd re pens and cars, I really can't remember the last time went anywhere other than a wedding or a funeral in anything other than a good pair of jeans, boots and an open necked shirt.
How times have changed in that respect.
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You can't beat the feel of a quality pen, I too detest those horrible Bic things and the pack of twenty cheapos you get in the 99p shop.
I'm a southpaw like RP and share his dislike of fountain pens, they just don't work for us lefties.
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>> I'm a southpaw like RP and share his dislike of fountain pens, they just don't
>> work for us lefties.
>>
I wonder why they don't work. After all, they're not asymmetric.
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As I say designed by right handed people with no regard for the minority. Brings back memories of cack-handedness in school brought on by their design. Being left handed is not easy - only when driving an iDrive BMW in a RHD car.
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>> As I say designed by right handed people ........
I used a fountain pen for several decades and they always looked symmetrical to me. In what way are they now asymmetric?
Last edited by: L'escargot on Sat 25 Aug 12 at 11:38
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>> I used a fountain pen for several decades and they always looked symmetrical to me.
>> In what way are they now asymmetric?
>>
When you're left handed your hand follows the pen. You can imagine what happens with wet ink...
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It was just as bad writing with a quill! the end of the feather used to tickle my nose, and I ended up sneezing all over my work!
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>> When you're left handed your hand follows the pen. You can imagine what happens with
>> wet ink ...
>>
How did people manage before the invention of ball point pens? Incidentally, I had one of the first ball point pens available in the UK. It was sold under the Biro brand name.
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My father was left handed but forced to write right handed as a child to avoid the problem. Difficult for him I imagine, but he became ambidextrous.
I can write right handed too because I taught myself to do it over a month or two a few years ago.Handy having two perfectly acceptable but completely different signatures sometimes...
Last edited by: Crankcase on Sat 25 Aug 12 at 12:07
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I'm not sure what I am with reference to right or left handedness. I naturally write with my right hand but would naturally kick a ball with my left foot. I can play squash with either hand and when skiing would tend to stop with my left side downhill when most right handers prefer the the right side to the slope if needing to pull up quickly.
I can write, although not very neatly, with my left hand, for example if scribbling something on a pad on the passenger seat ( I know I know ! ) or when holding a telephone to my right ear ( at a desk before we kick off ! )
Last edited by: Humph D'Bout on Sat 25 Aug 12 at 12:13
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Nothing to do with symmetry, L'es. It's because us lefties push the nib across the page, whereas everyone else pulls it. So you don't get a smooth flow of ink or movement.
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My pal, who is a left-hander like me, seems to write with his hand curled over the top of the pen, so in-fact he is writing right-handed, but upside down, if you can visulise what I`m saying! - looks odd and uncomfortable, but it`s a big improvement, up until a couple of years ago he used to hold the pen with the fore-fingers and Thumbs of both hands!
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>> Nothing to do with symmetry, L'es. It's because us lefties push the nib across the
>> page, whereas everyone else pulls it. So you don't get a smooth flow of ink
>> or movement.
>>
How did lefties get on with pens they had to dip into an inkwell? That's what we had when I learned to write at school. The way I was taught to write, the point of contact of the pen with the paper is above where the hand rests on the paper. I don't remember any of my fellow pupils having a problem.
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>> ......... boots .............
Humph, I envisage you wearing something like these. tinyurl.com/cpyvfrq
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Well, "ish", L'es..
:-)
These are my favourites...
www.crockettandjones.com/Product/Cranford-Polobrown
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>> These are my favourites...
>>
>> www.crockettandjones.com/Product/Cranford-Polobrown
>>
Cool. Bought at 92 Jermyn Street no doubt. I've got some similar style black ones made by Alfred Sargent.
Last edited by: L'escargot on Sat 25 Aug 12 at 11:50
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>> These are my favourites...
>>
>> www.crockettandjones.com/Product/Cranford-Polobrown
The leather heels mark you down as a man of distinction, a real big spender. And why not? If you've got it, flaunt it.
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>> My favourite ever pen was one stolen from a doctor. It was a Sheaffar. Heavy
>> and stiff it was branded with the Viagra trade mark...raised a few eyebrows in work.
>>
I bet that it raised more than just eyebrows!
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I've a Skoda owners club pen from the days when my daughter had an Estelle. It gave me great pleasure to offer it to colleagues who wanted to borrow a pen. It always came back!
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>>I hate fountain pens, designed by right handed fascists, no good for a south paw.
>>
Have you tried a Parker 61 ? They have a sort of small ball under the knib so should work smoothly for a lefty.
Fine for normal writing but of course no use for caligraphy.
www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/index.php?/topic/151143-parker-61/
www.ebay.com/itm/Parker-61-FINE-Nib-new-old-stock-never-used-14k-/190670321822
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>> hate fountain pens, designed by right handed fascists, no good for a south paw.
I don't like them either for the same reason. I have used them but had to adapt writing style.
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I admire those with smart pens. I have, on occasions, tried to join the club. Sadly the pen hasn't been invented that I can't lose in 24 hours.
I am bic man, these days. Or whatever I snaffled from one of the kids desks.
Now watches on the other hand, those I love.
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I always have a Parker fountain pen on my desk, just in case. I rarely use it. Ballpoints are just so much more practical.
However, I do confess to a certain fanaticism about pens. It has got to be a Papermate like this:
tinyurl.com/brtpdt3
Unfortunately, they have not made them for years.
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>> tinyurl.com/brtpdt3
I've got one of those. I keep looking for a new refill but so far to no avail.
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>> I've got one of those. I keep looking for a new refill but so far to no avail.
www.amazon.co.uk/Papermate-Lubriglide-Pen-Ink-Refill/dp/B000KN6JYI
Also available on ebay.
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Pens can be great contributors or props to business body language. For example, in a meeting, if you at least pretend to take notes of what other people are saying they will tend to be succinct and more accurate in what they tell you and in turn will be more inclined to believe that you are taking them seriously. If you use a "good" pen as a pointer when taking someone through the finer points of a contract or a document they feel subliminally reassured by its quality inference. Simply but gently handing a pen to someone when you want them to sign off a contract is quite often all it takes to get them to a final decision and conversely putting a pen back in your pocket when you are not happy with the direction of a discussion for example, signals negotiations are now about to close unless the other party very quickly gives ground.
Funny things pens...
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My wife has one of those. I bought it for her when she was 18. Was quite upset when she left it in a hut on a an island in the middle of Nova Scotia one year. We had to wait for the thaw in the spring and our friends to paddle across in a canoe to retrieve it and mail it to us.
Not as bad as when she lost her lucky spoon but that's another story.
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I had one of those Papermates when I was at school. My memory might be playing tricks on me but something tells me they were promoted as being able to write upside down or indeed in space? That they had maybe been developed for use by American astronauts or somesuch? The standing joke at the time being that the Russian solution to the same problem was to issue their astronauts with pencils...Long time ago of course. Might well be rubbish. Feel free to scoff at or ignore all the above !
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Just remembered, "Papermate Powerpoint" was the sub-brand.
Well, it's raining here.
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"I had one of those Papermates when I was at school. My memory might be playing tricks on me but something tells me they were promoted as being able to write upside down or indeed in space?"
"Just remembered, "Papermate Powerpoint" was the sub-brand."
Humph, that is why I use one to this day. In my experience, they write better than any other ballpoint, which is why I'm a little bit fanatical about them.
A quick google led me to the following discussion which shows that I'm not the only one who is partial to the things: tinyurl.com/8l8vuta
And googling has also turned up this from the Papermate web site:
1969 saw the introduction of the famous Powerpoint refill, synonymous with the 'pumping hearts' symbol. This refill would write at any angle - even upside down.
1994: Lubriglide Refill - An all-new Paper Mate ball pen refill is launched. Lubriglide, with its lubricated ink glide system, delivered bold, vivid lines without blobbing or skipping.
I have just confirmed that Lubriglide refills in my trusty Papermate write upside down just as well as the Powerpoint refills did.
Last edited by: tyro on Sat 25 Aug 12 at 15:16
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>> they were promoted as being able to
>> write upside down or indeed in space? That they had maybe been developed for use
>> by American astronauts or somesuch? The standing joke at the time being that the Russian
>> solution to the same problem was to issue their astronauts with pencils...Might well be rubbish. Feel free to scoff at or ignore all the above
>>
No scoffing at all. In fact, the story has ben used in TV adverts.
Unfortunately it falls down on two facts:
1) the 'weightless' pen actually exists. I know I have one.
2) pencils containn graphite. No ays would anybody want loose graphite floating about in zero gravity, in a highly oxygenated area, containing tons of electronics.
As far as pens go, i have a vast collection of half-decent pens, added to every time I attend a vehicle launch.
So far, the Civic pen is the best, closely followed by the X5.
At work, I use a staedtler HB pencil. writes in the rain, when copying stuff down from a noticeboard - with your notebook against the wall, and works wonders on stuck zippers!
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>> Not as bad as when she lost her lucky spoon but that's another story.
Did that cause a bit of a stir at the time then?
Last edited by: Humph D'Bout on Sat 25 Aug 12 at 13:37
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Doesn't like to fly without it so Gatwick lounge wasn't an ideal time to find it had gone missing. Had to persuade her that her St Christopher medallion would do the trick on its own.
It was reminiscent of a scene in "Memphis Belle"
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My favourite pen is one that works. Be it cheap or expensive. Who cares as long as it writes without having to resort to scrubbing it back on forth on a bit of scrap paper beforehand.
Wasn't is NASA who spent a fortune developing a pen that could be used in all manner of conditions? Zero gravity, upsidedown, etc. The Russians just used a pencil.
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I get my pens from Barclays. They keep a stock on the counter for me.
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>> I get my pens from Barclays. They keep a stock on the counter for me.
>>
They don't have a retractable point any more. Cheapskates!
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>> >> I get my pens from Barclays.
>> They don't have a retractable point any more. Cheapskates!
Argos are even worse. They only have pencils - and you can't take them back after 30 days either.
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>> My favourite pen is one that works. Be it cheap or expensive. Who cares as
>> long as it writes ...........
A Bic lolling about in the pocket of an off-the-shelf cardigan doesn't have the same panache as a good quality fountain pen neatly clipped into the breast pocket of a good quality made-to-measure suit.
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Heh heh well said L'es !
However, has anyone else ever made the mistake of putting a newly filled fountain pen in the top pocket of their white shirt and then getting on an aeroplane....?
Not good, not good at all.
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>However, has anyone else ever made the mistake of putting a newly filled fountain pen in
>the top pocket of their white shirt and then getting on an aeroplane....?
Or even worse?
I once put a freshly filled Zippo in my jeans pocket before a flight.
Jerry Lee Lewis sang about it.
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Virtual "tee hees" to both above !
:-)
I use these things. Simple, unpretentious but smart enough and under 10 quid.
www.cultpens.com/acatalog/Parker-Jotter-Stainless-Steel-Ballpoint-Pen.html#a10107
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Re the Zippo thing Kevin, when I, ahem, used to smoke, I've done that. Only cure was to ask for an extra yoghurt from the stewardess and retreat to the bogs...
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Bunch of pen thieves in the CAB - no point buying anything nice.
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>Only cure was to ask for an extra yoghurt from the stewardess and retreat to the bogs...
Mmmm. Never thought of using yoghurt. Is it more fun than cream out of an aerosol can and then a sprinkling of hundreds and thousands?
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Possibly not, but very soothing when applied as a balm in such an emergency. On your mildly tangential tack though, an ex girlfriend once told me that a reliable measure of a man's worth was whether she could get the contents of a whole tin of pineapple rings on with room for a cherry on top secured by the aforementioned aerosol cream...Never mentioned hundreds and thousands.
:-)
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>very soothing when applied as a balm in such an emergency.
Wish I'd thought of that. I tried the body lotion in my hotel bathroom but quickly washed it off again.
Skin was red raw for two or three days. Looked like one of those damn monkeys at the zoo.
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well, that's all in the past now.
I don't travel with my Zippo any more, as they are now considered a 'security risk' by the airlines here.
Either they are, or the security scum have decided that they cherish the thing. last time I had to get the purser's intervention to allow me to take it on the plane.
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>an ex girlfriend once told me that a reliable measure of a man's worth..
Ex?
Didn't pass the pineapple test Humph?
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>> Didn't pass the pineapple test Humph?
>>
In the light of this post, could you add an extra 'i' into the title, to make it more apt?
Thanks
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PS Humph.
Did you see in today's Telegraph that Selfridges Oxford Street are opening a new men's shoe area? It opens in November.
"72,000 pairs in 3,200 styles from 250 brands."
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>>"72,000 pairs in 3,200 styles from 250 brands."
Aye well, watch this space as they say...
:-)
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>Aye well, watch this space as they say...
Sorry to hijack but,
Mrs K. is looking for a new pair of deck shoes. Must be blue and white.
Any suggestions?
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Thanks Humph,
Two pairs of Top-Siders ordered.
"The Sahara ones will go with my jeans won't they?".
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>>an ex girlfriend once told me that a reliable measure of a man's worth.......
Funny, an ex girlfriend once told me the same about a packet of polos. I wondered why she was laughing.
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>> Possibly not, but very soothing when applied as a balm in such an emergency. On
>> your mildly tangential tack though, an ex girlfriend once told me that a reliable measure
>> of a man's worth was whether she could get the contents of a whole tin
>> of pineapple rings on with room for a cherry on top secured by the aforementioned
>> aerosol cream...Never mentioned hundreds and thousands.
Never tried that, but surely the hole in the pineapple ring is too small?
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They stretch.
Apparently.
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>> They stretch.
>>
>> Apparently.
>>
THAT much???!!!
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>> A Bic lolling about in the pocket of an off-the-shelf cardigan doesn't have the same
>> panache as a good quality fountain pen neatly clipped into the breast pocket of a
>> good quality made-to-measure suit.
What, like this, you mean?
Tinyurl link to Daily Mail tinyurl.com/d6y5xzu
Last edited by: Duncan on Sat 25 Aug 12 at 16:42
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>> A Bic lolling about in the pocket of an off-the-shelf cardigan doesn't have the same panache as a good quality fountain pen neatly clipped into the breast pocket of a good quality made-to-measure suit.>>
Mont Blanc in my case...:-)
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Pens in the breast pockets of a suit?
Quel horreur!
Akin to wearing socks with sandals while on a beach holiday.
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>> Quel horreur!
Sacré bleu et zut alors. Typical Rosbif! Do you mean "Quelle horreur"?
;-)
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the same panache as a good quality fountain pen neatly clipped into the breast pocket of a
>> good quality made-to-measure suit.
>>
So; you are going to look like Blakey 'On The Buses' are you?
Very panache!
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"Wasn't is NASA who spent a fortune developing a pen that could be used in all manner of conditions? Zero gravity, upsidedown, etc. The Russians just used a pencil."
The space pen was developed by Fisher and NASA just paid retail price for them. Problem with a pencil in space is if the lead breaks you have particles of highly conductive material floating inside your capsule and if you have to sharpen it, again there are contamination issues.
Definitely with Humph on the role of a good pen, this is my weapon of choice
www.pelikanpens.co.uk/acatalog/Pelikan_Classic_200.html
alfalfa
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I've got a Fisher Space Pen. It's not very nice, to hold or to write with.
I do like fountain pens, though, partly because a good one (not necessarily an expensive one) can make my grotty right-handed writing look almost presentable. I had a Cross ATX that was beautifully light and took fineliner refills that almost matched a nib for style and beat it for convenience, but I lost it after an all-night flight. Its last act in my hand was to complete an immigration form no-one asked to see.
Alfalfa gets style points for a Pelikan, so much more likely to have been chosen on its merits than a Mont Blanc, which too often appears as a status symbol in the hand of a philistine sales manager. Mine is a Waterman Carène, which I like partly because no-one else has yet produced one in a meeting I've attended.
But cheap, fit-for-purpose pens have their place too. I love Faber-Castell's '2011', which I use in gel-ballpoint and automatic pencil forms. It's triangular in section, which makes it blissfully comfortable, and it has a satisfying unpretentiousness that means I'd be happy to hand one to a client - but not embarrassed to ask for it back.
Finally, disposable pens have their place - but not Bics, which are vile. The Pilot V5, on the other hand, works beautifully. I now keep one in my travel kit, for those immigration forms.
For me, it's about the small dose of satisfaction I get from using something that works well, and if I use it every day those doses multiply up to make the thing worth its price. The Waterman cost me £100 but that was 13 years ago and it should last at least that long again; a 2011 will eventually wear out, or lose its button if it's a pencil, but a new one is only £8 or so. Worth more than any number of Bics.
Last edited by: WillDeBeest on Sat 25 Aug 12 at 19:30
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Genuine BIC Crystal is the most reliable for note taking, although I always carry two.
The one thing that can stop them is bitter cold.
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>> When I first started work ( well proper work anyway ) around 1979,
>>
Before I read any more Hump I am with you all of the way.
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Fair play WP. Except you have a pension. Something I shall never have. Not grudging yours of course !
Much...
:-)
Edit - Except it was Martin. Bit tired, sorry....
Last edited by: Humph D'Bout on Sat 25 Aug 12 at 20:43
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I just can't hack it with Biros...my writing degenerates into a scribble after a line or two.
Not that I need to write much nowadays. I get plenty of pens of all shapes and sizes from the hire cars and I keep a few in the motor for everyday use.
I love fountain pens, green or brown ink, of course, but have no use for one now.
Favourite implements now are rollerball types. I can only do the crossword/sudokos with one of them.
My very bestest never leaves my desk and is gleaming in front of me now. It's a Cross .7 rollerball ink gel pen. Fluted gold with black leather grip. It's heavy and flows beautifully across the paper. It's not listed on the Cross website now but I guess it was about £45. A present from my son on my 65th
Ted
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The ink in the early original Biros (®) smelt like cat pee!
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Ah, green ink, favoured by nutters, eccentrics and the secret service. Not sure about brown though. :-)
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At work, its the chewed bic, fine point, black or red, depending on the application. Never pencil.
At home, however, I always use a Mitsubishi rollerball, which writes very nicely in my hand. Pencil for technical drawing/design work for my model railway.
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What scale, Alistair ? I know you don't live too far away.
Mine's 4mm.
Ted
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Can you slice a pineapple that thin, Ted?
Last edited by: WillDeBeest on Sun 26 Aug 12 at 23:09
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Nah.......Don't bother with tinned p'napple.......chunks ok but rings give me a headache.
Ted
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Best fresh pineapple I ever had was in Maui. But that's no surprise. Best Ahi too.
Ants decided to try to get into the fridge for some pineapple too! But that's another thread. And this one isn''t about pineapple either.
No idea how this relates to pens, snobbery or pride.
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4mm Ted. Very much at the planning stage at the moment - baseboard built, working on supports for it today.
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Great stuff, Al...come over and have a grice and a cuppa sometime, my EMail's on me profile.
Got quite a few mags as well to dispose of to a loving home !
Ted
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>> Fair play WP. Except you have a pension. Something I shall never have. Not grudging
>> yours of course !
>>
>> Much...
>>
>> :-)
>>
>> Edit - Except it was Martin. Bit tired, sorry....
>>
Blimey, I didn't post anything............ and still got a walk on part?
I can't use a crappy pen. I've only gone as far as Parker so I don't think I'm in the snob zone, but I'm another vote for the principle of having a good/reasonable one.
When I was at work, I'd use a cheap Parker...but...I was always leaving them on desks etc..and kept losing them...so...I printed off my name and cellotaped it to the side of the pen (it worked, the damned thing came back to me on several occasions).
My wife thought it was pedantic, but I was fed up of losing £4 pens.
When I was at school, I used to buy a green thing called Pentel, because it wrote well and wasn't too expensive.
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Yeah sorry WP ! That's the trouble with those West country types though y'see. All look the same... Must be the smocks, ruddy complexions, farm gate leaning, cider drinking and straw chewing that does it...
I'll em, be off then...
Ooh Aarr !
:-))
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Actually. whilst rummaging earlier, I found what must be the "snobbiest" of all pens!! - It`s big, thick, plastic and writes with six different inks, at the slide of a button!
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>> Ooh Aarr !
I think my 'Ooh Aarr' is creeping back in you know...it usually only surfaced when I was somewhat inebriated.
I haven't got access to the smock at the moment, it's in for dry cleaning....;-)
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I use a bright green Waterman in the office for taking notes or signing letters. Using a biro my writing is completely illegible; with a fountink (sic) pen it's broadly legible.
And it's bright green because everybody recognises it as mine.
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Cross ATX for me. I have two: a chrome job that stays at home (it's rather old and the nib is winder than I'd like now, so doesn't get used much), and a brushed steel that stays in the office. Lovely piece of kit, has some width, but elegant at the same time.
tinyurl.com/9za5sdm
I also have what can only be called a fetish for conference freebies, and this is manifested largely in pens and post-it pads. I do often use both, but even I can't explain or justify the bag full of them in my filing cabinet...
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I also have what can only be called a fetish for conference freebies, and this is manifested largely in pens and post-it pads. I do often use both, but even I can't explain or justify the bag full of them in my filing cabinet..
Much the same for me. I had hundreds when I quit working. I took them the Bureau when I first started volunteering there.......
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Sounds like a good boss Humph a stickler for cleaniness.Don't see it as snobbery using a nice pen.Parker is best.
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Humph, how pretentious can you really get??? Are you not a Scots lad? Have you not got more to worry about than blinking pens??
The look you really aspire to is:
Clarks shoes, preferably bought in the sale. Only need one pair of shoes per colour. No slippy leather soles, proper rubber soles with grips.
Shirts - short sleeved, no cuff links required, maximise air throughput
Pens - the cheaper the better, its not the blinkin Mona Lisa you are drawing, you are simply writing a name!! Do you insist on designer toner / ink in your computer printer??
Hmmphh!!
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Now he lives in England, Bobby, he does actually have to maintain certain standards which may not be needed north of the wall.
Ted
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Pens, snobbery or pride? - bathtub tom
