What is happening in this country.Eighteen miners shot and killed for going on strike.
After apartheid things where going to change for the better wern't they?
|
>> Eighteen miners shot and killed for going on strike.
>>
That is an abbreviated and misleading version of events.
The strike had been violent, guards had been killed by the strikers, some strikers were carrying firearms. The number killed is not eighteen.
I do not condone violence.
|
|
Didn't appear from the footage I saw last night that they were shot for going on strike. Many of the strikers clearly armed, although the footage of the shooting wasn't clear and I couldn't see if those that were shot were armed. Clearly advancing at a pace on the police line and fairly obvious from the preceding deaths that they were (as a group) more than willing to use lethal violence. A simply hideous outcome though.
|
At least 30 people were killed when police clashed with striking miners at South Africa's Marikana mine on Thursday, the police minister has said.
www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-19292909
|
|
I imagine it made margaret thatchers day reading that in the morning papers ?
|
>> I imagine it made margaret thatchers day reading that in the morning papers ?
>>
Speaking as one who was in the thick end of the 1984 miners dispute, I'd suggest that your crass and ignorant comment is only designed to fan the embers of resentment.
|
>>That is an abbreviated and misleading version of events.
I'm guessing it was a BBC report then.
|
Ok, Lonmin has had to lay off a lot of workers of late due to the fall in demand for platinum.
The workers are upset about retrenchments, and proposed increase in salary (they think it's paltry) and demand more money anyways. Meanwhile a new union comes along, and promises a 200% increase in salary.
The old union members and new union members clash. Violently.
During these clashes, 10 die - 3 miners, 3 bystanders, 2 security guards, 2 cops.
Mob retires to a nearby hill, and stay there for a while, being given 'traditional medicine' by a witchdoctor to 'make them brave'.
Cops eventually get upset by the standoff - they want to arrest the murderers, and recover the stolen police firearms.
As the cops lay barb wire to corrall the mob, the mob tries to flee, many of them heading for the nearby informal settlement. Cops head them off, to avoid a riot through the village. Teargas and water cannon are used. Mob then attack cops, weilding pangas and other weapons, shots are fired at cops, cops retaliate in kind.
Bodies everywhere.
Rule #1... never fire at people who have guns and know how to use them
|
|
Zim is an example which SA is following - slowly but surely :-(
|
>> Zim is an example which SA is following - slowly but surely :-(
>>
Sad but true.
|
>> >> Zim is an example which SA is following - slowly but surely :-(
>> >>
>> Sad but true.
>>
Big difference - Zuma the rapist has realised that he cannot do without honky talent. And Minister in the Presidency Manuel (our former Finance Minister) is also aware of it.
Zim has gone to hell in a handbasket, and while some folk have been calling for nationalisation of the mines etc etc etc, calmer heads at the top level have advocated against it.
back to the news: Westpig, if you were confronted by a mob of muti-fuelled blokes armed with machetes and sharpened rods and clubs, and stolen police pistols, and you had an automatic weapon, what would you do?
I don't believe ther local plod over-reacted - as many after-the-fact observers feel. the fact that many firearms were recovered confirms this. Also, local and international journos have stated that there was incoming before the cops went 'twenty rounds rapid' on the chaps with pangas.
|
>> Westpig, if you were confronted by a mob of muti-fuelled blokes
>> armed with machetes and sharpened rods and clubs, and stolen police pistols, and you had
>> an automatic weapon, what would you do?
Same as they did.
|
>> >> >> Zim is an example which SA is following - slowly but surely :-(
>> >> >>
>> >> Sad but true.
>> >>
>> Big difference - Zuma the rapist has realised that he cannot do without honky talent.
>> And Minister in the Presidency Manuel (our former Finance Minister) is also aware of it.
>> Zim has gone to hell in a handbasket, and while some folk have been calling
>> for nationalisation of the mines etc etc etc, calmer heads at the top level have
>> advocated against it.
When the Youth wing come to power, SA will follow Zim.
About 10 years time I reckon. There are such disparities in wealth and The Government is failing to create the conditions for economic growth so it looks like it's going to go pear shaped.
Foreign investors take one look and run...
|
>> >> When the Youth wing come to power, SA will follow Zim.
>>
They won't.
The ANC, despite many faults, still keep a firm hand on the unruly children of the ANCYL when it comes to external affairs.
The last thing the party needs is disinvestment.
Unfortunately too many SA folk still believe the myth that SA is a source of stuff which cannot be purchased elsewhere. That was true in the 80s...
Market forces will prevail.
|
Who owns these mines and why have people living in conditions which are third world.
|
Reading some of the comments regarding police and arms,its a good job we have unarmed police.
|
>> Who owns these mines and why have people living in conditions which are third world.
>>
Well, we ARE the third world, Dutchie.
The mines are owned by mining companies, who have an obligation to their shareholders to make a profit.
They are not a humanitarian organisation.
Oh, and SA is not a welfare state. How it works is work = money. No work = no money.
So if you have a job, no matter how poorly paid you may think it is, then you stick with it, or leave. And don't demand (with violence) a 200% increase.
Oh, and before anyone says what a terrible wage these poor guys earn, please realise the Rand v pound exchange rate doesn't actually reflect the reality of buying power.
|
>> the Rand v pound exchange rate doesn't actually reflect the reality of buying power.
It certainly doesn't. Try this.... Its the Big Mac index.
www.economist.com/blogs/graphicdetail/2012/01/daily-chart-3
If you take the time to study it, you'll understand another perspective on economies beyond exchange rates.
It always makes me wonder why anyone other than a trader would care about exchange rates other than when they're looking for the best deal.
|
|
You livve in SA Ian so you must know what goes on.Did you live under the apartheid system?and what has changed.Tell me about yourself was you born in South Africa and what should happen.Surely killing the poor blacks isn't the answer.
|
>>was you born in South Africa
I'm sorry, and I mean no offence, I just had an immediate mental picture of Ali G asking that question.
|
|
No offence taken FM Ali G asked some good questions.>:)
|
>> You livve in SA Ian so you must know what goes on.Did you live under
>> the apartheid system?and what has changed.Tell me about yourself was you born in South Africa
>> and what should happen.Surely killing the poor blacks isn't the answer.
>>
No, I'm English born.
I grew up under the apartheid system, and benefited from it. Thanks you very much.
What has changed? Not a great deal. There is now a booming black middle class, mostly 'tenderpreneurs' - ie folk who have benefited from government contracts due to cronyism and nepotism.
For the 'poor blacks', not much has changed. But in the past they could blame apartheid for their poor standard of living. Now they can blame their democratically elected ANC government.
The 'poor blacks' who were killed in this instance charged at armed police, with machetes and firearms. And got mown down for their trouble.
They have a right to strike, and protest. Their strike in this instance was illegal, and their protest was violent - 10 dead already BEFORE the massacre.
It seems that the majority are all for democracy. Until they actually have to abide by democracy's rules when their side loses. Then it becomes 'it is not fair!' and violence ensues.
A recent case in point - a whole province's schools went without school text books for over half a year. Because the contract to print and distribute them was given to some friend of a friend. Who took the money, and ran.
So now we have MILLIONS of kids without books. And thus without an education.
And it took a High Court order to the Ministry of Education to get them to distribute the books. 6 months late. And they had the cheek to argue about it. It seemed that SOMEBODY was to blame, and they wanted to get to the bottom of it first, rather than actually solve the problem.
Titanic and deckchairs.
|
|
I can understan that the apartheid system wasn't sustainable it had to go in the end.But where the Dutch that bad to the blacks? They fought the war against a empire plenty of them ended up in camps.They started farming and working the land.I believe you have now a white minority who live in poverty.Regarding the strike being illegal so what.I wonder if the police was bought to control this strike and the owners having the last laugh.Having people still living in shanty towns is no excuse Ian.When people have nothing to loose they loose it.
|
>> Regarding the strike being illegal so
>> what.
So what? Well, because members of Union x disagreed with Union y about the way to go ahead, union x and y members fought, with 10 people dying. Including 2 coppers
There are ways and means of making your case. All legal. The strikers rejected them.
|
>> >> >> When the Youth wing come to power, SA will follow Zim.
>> >>
>> They won't.
>> The ANC, despite many faults, still keep a firm hand on the unruly children of
>> the ANCYL when it comes to external affairs.
>> The last thing the party needs is disinvestment.
In 10 years' time,the current Youth Movement will no longer be so.It will be mainstream. And Zuma will have retired.
Time moves on..
|
South Africa should question why no whites were among those killed in the Marikana shootout, the ANC Youth League (ANCYL) said on Saturday.
"We must be worried that 100 percent of those shot were black," ANC Youth League president Ronald Lamola said.
He was speaking at the 21st anniversary celebration of the SA Student's Congress (Sasco) in Durban.
He told guests that South Africa should be worried that there were "so few" whites and Indians in student movements.
When Sasco was formed 21-years ago white and Indian students participated in it, he said.
"Where are those students? In a non racial movement, this should worry us. We must be able to see a rainbow nation everywhere."
The ongoing inequality in the economy was preventing the country from becoming a true rainbow nation because white males were in control, said Lamola.
"The ruling class is still dominated by white people."
Lamola insisted that the "recruitment strategy" of Lonmin need to be closely looked at.
He urged Sasco members to "study hard" so that the strategy of nationalising mines could be carried out.
He said the league had identified manganese, platinum and gold mines as those that needed to be nationalised, along with petrochemical giant Sasol.
|
Ian
Zim on the way...it may take 20 years but it's going to happen.
|
|
Book your tickets out now, while you can.
|
>> Book your tickets out now, while you can.
Either that, or invest in a lot of brown bootpolish!
|
|
I am guessing that all the miners who were shot were black because white men don't work down platinum mines as rock drillers. The lack of whites in student organisations suggests to me that they do not represent the interests or aspirations of white students and/or are seen as too left wing or militant
|
>> I am guessing that all the miners who were shot were black because white men
>> don't work down platinum mines as rock drillers.
Probably not. Maybe white kids would have an aversion to getting tooled up, get annointed by the witchdoctor, and then attacking police armed with automatic weapons?
Working down the mine must be a horrible job. But they signed up to do so, and now demand (with violence, and further threats of violence) a 200% increase.
The lack of whites in student organisations
>> suggests to me that they do not represent the interests or aspirations of white students
>> and/or are seen as too left wing or militant
>>
As far as the student organisations go, you may be correct. But then maybe whitey is at college to study, and doesn't agree when the students' union demand the authorities adopt a 'pass-one, pass-all' policy when things go tits up at the end of the year.
We laugh and joke about it here - in the event of student riots, we check the exam calendar. Haven't studied? Have a big demo for a week, and then explain that you couldn't get to the exam hall/were disrupted in your studies by demos etc etc etc
Having witnessed this almost 30 years ago, it comes as a surprise that they still try to play the same old cards.
|
|
I was surprised to read (I think on the BBC website) that the mine in question was owned by Zuma's nephew and Mandela's grandson - is this correct ?
|
>> I was surprised to read (I think on the BBC website) that the mine in
>> question was owned by Zuma's nephew and Mandela's grandson - is this correct ?
>>
No.
The place where the massacre happened is owned by Lonmin. (Tiny Rowland's mob)
The Aurora Mine, where there have also been violent strikes and deaths, is owned by Zuma's nephew and Mandela's grandson - and those poor workers haven't been paid for years. (yes, years.)
Unfortunately, the one chap is too ill to attend court proceedings, but is well enough to attend other social events.
And court orders tend to be ignored.
I wonder why.
Go and wiki 'aurora' and 'pamodzi'. Most entertaining.
|
|
Dont worry about it now, the Chinese will be buying the place up soon, and beat the sheet out of the lot of you, black or white.
|
South Africa. - Duncan
