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...should be hailed as a hero, not hounded.
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Indeed. Might be a rapist though.
Bradley Manning should be hailed a hero but he's going to get 40yrs in jail for his leak.
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America wants him at any cost and Britain will do the dirty work.
nothing different from the norm these days.
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Plenty of precedent for UK -> US extradition.
Not sure what's to be gained going via Sweden.
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Hopefully all the celebrity bail bonders will lose their money.
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Sweden has made a perfectly reasonable and lawful request for an Australian citiizen, resident in the UK, to be extradited for a suspected major crime, i.e rape.
The UK, under the terms of our extradition treaty is obliged to do so. Every possible legal appeal by Mr Assange has failed.
We have no reason to assume that Sweden would allow Mr Assange to be extradited to the US for any crimes that they allege he may have committed but in any case that is not relevant to the extradition request by Sweden. To believe that Sweden, is somehow in a conspiracy with the UK and the US is frankly laughable.
If Sweden refused to extradite a suspected rapist to the UK there would understandably be a furore here. The law should take its course. That's why we have laws.
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Maybe the Ecuador embassy could hand over Assange to the Argentinian embassy.
Then things can get really messy.
As for storming an embassy, if this does happen then it's a mockery of the Vienna convention.
Last edited by: diddy1234 on Thu 16 Aug 12 at 09:18
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What made him choose Ecuador, I wonder?
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Not based on anything other than my personal gut feelings I would not trust Assange as far as I could throw him.... he has left those who bailed him in deep doo doo by jumping to the Ecuadorian embassy.....
.......but if UK try and storm the Ecuadorian embassy it eventually leads to nowhere other than the breakdown of the whole diplomatic process.
GB have made it clear that Assange will not be allowed free passage from the embassy to an air or sea port to get out of this country so they will get him eventually.
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Unless he's gone already?
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The Times has a piece on this issue this morning. Diplomatic and Consular Premises Act 1987 (enacted following the Libyan embassy shooting of WPC Fletcher) permits the UK to lift territorial immunity. That won't necessarily lead to a raid, but the Ecuadorians may be somewhat hampered.
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Crass "diplomacy" or a cunning plan ?
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Talk of storming of embassies is rubbish emanating from Assange. The British government are simply stating the legal position and thereby heaping pressure on Ecuador to resolve the situation. I suspect Ecuador would like a face saving way out of the position in which it finds itself. Some sort of arrangement will inevitably be made.
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>> Ecuador would like a face saving way out of the position in which it
>> finds itself.
>>
If so, I wonder why they took him in in the first place?
Hello, my name is Julian Assange, I'd like asylum please. I've brought a can of worms with me.
That's fine, come right in.
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The SAS didn't do a bad job at the Iranian Embassy.
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"If so, I wonder why they took him in in the first place?"
Partly because they were taken on the hop and partly because it suited the Ecuadorian government in enhancing its popularist anti-United States stance. Assange chose his embassy well. That they made the gesture is not to say they they want to keep him as a lodger for the rest of his life.
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The Americans are used to people living in embassies.
They let Cardinal Mindzenty live in their embassy in Budapest for 15 years, so they obviously won't be putting any pressure on Britain to break long-established diplomatic conventions.
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>> The Americans
>> won't be putting any pressure on Britain to break long-established diplomatic conventions.
>>
Assange lost all his legal delaying tactics and is awaiting/avoiding extradition from Britain to Sweden.
No case has been made for extradition to USA.
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Be carefull on your long haul flights :-
'For the attention of our passengers, BA flight 777 from Heathrow to Stockholm will be delayed slightly as we detour to New York to drop off a passenger'
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>> Yet
>>
As he has exhausted all his appeals and will be on his way to Sweden direct from the UK, "yet" does not come in it. If the Americans had wanted to extradite him from here, they had stood a far better chance of getting him extradited, and far far quicker, than the Swedes have found to be the case in their efforts.
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He has not being charged they only want him for questioning.Flight from Sweden about 1 hr.?
To questioning him.The Austarlian government is not protecting him.Remember quantanamo bay.How many people are locked up their without being charged.He has got asylum now by the equador government.Why are coppers standing their on the doorstep of the Embassy?Private property.
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Assange knows when they lock him up in Sweden the Yanks will have him.
The rape case stinks the Swedish chief prosecutor dismissed the case on lack of evidence.
I have been to Sweden many times a no need to rape a women there are plenty avalable for company.
Yes Julian has opend a can of worms so what.
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I see Ecuador have allowed him asylum. www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-19281492
So I guess we won't be breaking in to spring him after all
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>> I see Ecuador have allowed him asylum. www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-19281492
>>
>> So I guess we won't be breaking in to spring him after all
>>
That may be worse than prison for him - being under "house arrest" in the embassy. What will the embassy do to satisfy his human right to enjoy his “disturbing” sexual appetite (disturbing - referred to as such by his lawyer during in the Appeal hearings).
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>> I have been to Sweden many times a no need to rape a women there
>> are plenty avalable for company.
I think that's a pretty weak argument.
There are plenty of women available for company in the UK, does that mean that all rape cases in the UK are fabricated?
Rape generally has little to do with a need for sex.
I don't buy the argument that getting him to Sweden is some ploy to get him to the US. As has been pointed out above, it would probably be easier to get him direct from the UK to the US.
The more likely explanation is the one that doesn't need a convoluted conspiracy theory. In other words that Assange, for whatever reason, doesn't want to face the rape investigation in Sweden.
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>> I have been to Sweden many times a no need to rape a women there
>> are plenty avalable for company.
>>
"..... The Crown Prosecution Service presented the four Swedish Prosecution Service accusations: two were of a specific Swedish crime called ''ofredande'', or misconduct (misleadingly translated as molestation), one being that the defendant ''pushed his erect penis against the complainant's back, thus violating her sexual integrity'', the other for unsafe sex ''against the complainant's explicitly stated wish''. There is one charge of sexual assault, which alleges that Assange had sex with Wilen while she was asleep, and the most serious charge is that he held Ardin down with his body weight, forced her legs open, and had sex with her. .... "
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from Assange's QC:
" ... Assange may have been “disrespectful and discourteous” to his alleged victims in the bedroom by being “rough and impatient”.
But Ben Emmerson, QC, told the Appeal Court in London that he had committed no offence.
The sexual relations Assange had with two women in Sweden were consensual. The extradition should be halted as it was “legally flawed” as the arrest warrant on which he was held was “inaccurate and misleading in the extreme”.
Mr Emmerson said he was not disputing that the complainants found Assange’s behaviour “disrespectful, discourteous and disturbing”. ...
.... Mr Emmerson said: “Her words may indicate she was not particularly enjoying what was going on but they certainly do not go anywhere near what we would regard in this country as lack of consent.” ... "
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...In other words that Assange, for whatever reason, doesn't want to face the rape investigation in Sweden...
I agree, a trial could go either way, irrespective of whether he's guilty or not.
The safest bet for anyone accused of rape is to prevent a trial starting.
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>>...should be hailed as a hero, not hounded.
Really, a fool. You, as I, have no idea what he is or is not guilty of.
On another note, why do people link the accusations with his whistle-blowing or whatever its trendily called?
I see no reason why a man who does one should not do the other. In fact there are arguably some similarities.
And do we say that you may not be a whistle-blower if you've ever committed rape? Or is it that you can rape if you're a whistle blower?
Stuff and nonsense, they are two seperate things.
He can be praised for one, and still guilty of the other. Or indeed rubbish at one and innocent of the other.
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It's worth bearing in mind for those interested in the case (and I'm not one of them) that the charge of rape in Sweden is an all encompassing term, that covers many types and seriousness of sexual crime. So the Swedish crime of rape is not necessarily (but can be) the same as the British one.
As a result, Sweden has a high incidence of rape compared to many other countries, but not necessarily more rapes, as the British would call it.
Last edited by: Dave on Thu 16 Aug 12 at 17:05
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Latest BBC news flash
"Foreign Secretary William Hague says UK government will not allow Julian Assange safe passage out of the UK"
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I guess the government will just let him stew in the embassy until he has had enough. The Next move is down to Mr Assange who perhaps has not been as clever as he thought. Perhaps he can give the Ecuadorians a few lectures in human rights while he is there to pass the time.
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>> Latest BBC news flash
>> "Foreign Secretary William Hague says UK government will not allow Julian Assange safe passage out of the UK"
>>
And he's ruled out storming the embassy as well. Damn spoilsport. However, he hasn't ruled out setting up large speakers outside, and playing the Spice Girls 24 hrs a day...
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There is one way they the British government could resolve the situation if they really want to arrest Mr Assange. They could simply cut off diplomatic relations with Ecuador, send the ambassador home, close the embassy and arrest Assange after that. Would be a major diplomatic move though.
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I'm not sure what Assange's end game is here. He probably doesn't have one and just thinks that stalling is the best way to go at the moment.
He could live in that embassy for the rest of his life, which sounds pretty miserable.
Of course, political positions change. It might be good for Ecuador to appear to be snubbing their noses at the UK and the US (if you buy that conspiracy theory), for now...but that may not always be the case.
Assange could find himself holed up there for 5 years...and then eventually on his way to Sweden, by which time there will be a huge cloud of suspicion over him.
So 5 years in the Ecuadorian embassy, followed by maybe another 5 years in a Swedish prison.
If he is innocent, far better to have gone back to Sweden and faced the investigation.
As Iffy said, better to avoid a trial...but really only if you have a proper end game.
Last edited by: SteelSpark on Thu 16 Aug 12 at 17:38
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>> Of course, political positions change. It might be good for Ecuador to appear to be
>> snubbing their noses at the UK and the US (if you buy that conspiracy theory),
>> for now...but that may not always be the case.
>>
>>
Ecuador has previous form in this matter:
" .... In late November 2010, Kintto Lucas, the Deputy Foreign Minister of Ecuador, spoke about giving Assange residency with "no conditions... so he can freely present the information he possesses and all the documentation, not just over the Internet but in a variety of public forums".[133] Lucas believed that Ecuador may benefit from initiating a dialogue with Assange.[134] Foreign Minister Ricardo Patiño stated on 30 November that the residency application would "have to be studied from the legal and diplomatic perspective".[135] A few hours later, President Rafael Correa stated that WikiLeaks "committed an error by breaking the laws of the United States and leaking this type of information... no official offer was [ever] made."[136][137] Correa noted that Lucas was speaking "on his own behalf"; .... "
Source documents can be found from en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julian_Assange
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I wonder if the Ecuadorians would have been as accomodating had Assange used his site to expose some of their appaling record on human-rights, coups d'etat, etc etc etc?
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I am assuming that unlike a diplomat leaving an embassy, as soon as Assange steps out he will be arrested. He has no immunity outside the embassy does he? And it's not as if you need to camp outside 24x7 to get him - he needs to leave the UK via a port or airport. And he left and managed to get to France, won't he just be extradited from there instead?
I can't see how he can stay in the embassy for ever. And if he does that's a form of self imposed imprisonment. It does make you wonder how innocent he is in terms of the charges against him in Sweden. Or is he really afraid of extradition to the USA?
He's looking more guilty by hiding away like this to me. I'm not sure I agree with all the motives behind wiki leaks either which has not had the public's interest in the forefront all the time. Sometimes it's better not to know certain things.
I'm guessing he'll end up in Sweden sooner rather than later. Lets hope it's over soon before it costs the taxpayer (and therefore all of us) lots of money. He's not even British. I'd have sent him back to Australia before now - but probably not an option once the extradition request came in.
Last edited by: rtj70 on Thu 16 Aug 12 at 18:34
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I'm not usually one for conspiracy theories, not in the slightest...but...some of this troubles me.
Why would a rape suspect think it sensible to hole up in a South American embassy, rather than face the music, it's not going away? Is it the case that a rape enquiry is as it is, but being locked up for ever more by the Yanks is a deal breaker?
Why did Assange get given 2 weeks freedom by the UK, before extradition was going to be started to Sweden? Is it because they thought he might sod off and the weariness that went with it would go away?
If Assange genuinely thinks that extradition to the US is likely if he ever went to Sweden, why would Sweden do that and not the UK?
Why is the legal process in Sweden apparently flawed, in that an initial prosecutor thought there to be flimsy evidence, then it was firmed up?
Is it the case that Sweden has a more lax extradition process than the UK? i.e. the UK will tend to look at things more thoroughly.
Something seems wrong here.
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Sometime does sound wrong - maybe there is enough evidence to convict him of what he is accused of in Sweden to begin with. And he may end up in USA too. Who knows. But I can't see how he can stay in the embassy forever. But he can't leave without being arrested.
He's let those down that posted bail too - they're out of pocket.
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...But he can't leave without being arrested...
Is even that clear?
Haig said Assange won't be allowed to leave the country, but he's not a fugitive from British justice so locking him up for a long time might be difficult.
Hopefully if Assange is nicked, some soppy liberal judge would grant bail and he would skip the country, thereby ridding us of the problem.
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I may have heard (Radio 4) Not the Sun newspaper (sic) that Sweden has a record of rendering people to other countries without official request. Difficult to catch all of the details when one is up to one's armpits in Lime render and ruddy rain.
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Of course these diplomatic incidents can soon get out of hand;
A warning
The Diplomatic Platypus by Patrick Barrington
I had a duck-billed platypus when I was up at Trinity,
With whom I soon discovered a remarkable affinity.
He used to live in lodgings with myself and Arthur Purvis,
And we all went up together for the Diplomatic Service.
I had a certain confidence, I own, in his ability,
He mastered all the subjects with remarkable facility;
And Purvis, though more dubious, agreed that he was clever,
But no one else imagined he had any chance whatever.
I failed to pass the interview, the board with wry grimaces
Took exception to my boots and then objected to my braces,
And Purvis too was failed by an intolerant examiner
Who said he had his doubts as to his sock-suspender's stamina.
Our summary rejection, though we took it with urbanity
Was naturally wounding in some measure to our vanity;
The bitterness of failure was considerably mollified,
However, by the ease with which our platypus had qualified.
The wisdom of the choice, it soon appeared, was undeniable;
There never was a diplomat more thoroughly reliable.
He never made rash statements his enemies might hold him to,
He never stated anything, for no one ever told him to,
And soon he was appointed, so correct was his behaviour,
Our Minister (without Portfolio) to Trans-Moravia.
My friend was loved and honoured from the Andes to Esthonia,
He soon achieved a pact between Peru and Patagonia,
He never vexed the Russians nor offended the Rumanians,
He pacified the Letts and yet appeased the Lithuanians,
Won approval from his masters down in Downing Street so wholly, O,
He was soon to be rewarded with the grant of a Portfolio.
When on the Anniversary of Greek Emancipation,
Alas! He laid an egg in the Bulgarian Legation.
This untoward occurrence caused unheard-of repercussions,
Giving rise to epidemics of sword-clanking in the Prussians.
The Poles began to threaten, and the Finns began to flap at him,
Directing all the blame for this unfortunate mishap at him;
While the Swedes withdrew entirely from the Anglo-Saxon dailies
The right of photographing the Aurora Borealis,
And, all efforts at rapprochement in the meantime proving barren,
The Japanese in self-defence annexed the Isle of Arran.
My platypus, once thought to be more cautious and more tentative
Than any other living diplomatic representative,
Was now a sort of warning to all diplomatic students
Of the risks attached to negligence, the perils of imprudence,
And, branded in the Honours List as 'Platypus, Dame Vera',
Retired, a lonely figure, to lay eggs in Bordighera.
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nice one norfolk dude....i had to read it with gilbert and sullivan in mind couldnt help it
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>> ...But he can't leave without being arrested...
>>
>> Is even that clear?
>>
>> Haig said Assange won't be allowed to leave the country, but he's not a fugitive
>> from British justice so locking him up for a long time might be difficult.
>>
>> Hopefully if Assange is nicked, some soppy liberal judge would grant bail and he would
>> skip the country, thereby ridding us of the problem.
>>
He has breached his bail conditions, and cost his high profile supporters, who put up the surety, a lot of money. He has exhausted the all the legal appeal avenues open to him here.
If/When it becomes possible, he will be arrested, not given bail, and taken to Sweden pronto.
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He's a real Prima Donna isn't he.
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I see now that he is saying that'll he'll got to Sweden if they promise never to extradite him anywhere else.
He's not demanding that they promise to follow due process for any valid extradition request, but that they never extradite him even if the request is valid and all correct processes are followed.
Of course, he knows that Sweden won't agree to that (and why should they?) so he can now try to claim that he is genuinely prepared to face the charges, when the reality is that he is not.
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Quite funnily a woman has been before court around here for falsifying documents, identity theft and the such like. She is clearly a fruitcake. Claiming to be an ex-intell. Officer who was involved in the sexed up Iraq document. Despite waiting for Tony Blair to come to her rescue was found guilty and sentenced in her absence to a term of imprisonment. Before the verdict she actually fled to Equador....seems a popular place...
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Any extradition request by the Yanks will be revenge driven.
They don't like it up 'em!
They also think that 9/11 justifies any act of retribution aimed at anyone who upsets them.
Last edited by: Roger on Sun 19 Aug 12 at 13:40
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>> He's a real Prima Donna isn't he.
According to Wikipedia the signs of Narcissistic Personality Disorder are:
An obvious self-focus in interpersonal exchanges
Problems in sustaining satisfying relationships
A lack of psychological awareness (see insight in psychology and psychiatry, egosyntonic)
Difficulty with empathy
Problems distinguishing the self from others (see narcissism and boundaries)
Hypersensitivity to any insults or imagined insults (see criticism and narcissists, narcissistic rage and narcissistic injury)
Vulnerability to shame rather than guilt
Haughty body language
Flattery towards people who admire and affirm them (narcissistic supply)
Detesting those who do not admire them (narcissistic abuse)
Using other people without considering the cost of doing so
Pretending to be more important than they really are
Bragging (subtly but persistently) and exaggerating their achievements
Claiming to be an "expert" at many things
Inability to view the world from the perspective of other people
Denial of remorse and gratitude
Mr Assange seems to have most of these
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That's Gordon Brown, surely?
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>> ...should be hailed as a hero, not hounded.
>>
Erm, Martin, that's not how you spell "narcissistic professional pain in the backside".
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He could presumably leave the embassy and go to Ecuador in an Ecuadorian diplomatic bag, or in an Ecuadorian diplomatic car.
Or perhaps be given some Ecuadorian diplomatic appointment ?
If they wanted him, of course. Perhaps they could sell him to the Argentinians, like the billeting officer in "Put out more flags", who sold the awful children to his colleague once he realised his racket had come to the end of its usefulness.
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>> He could presumably leave the embassy and go to Ecuador in an Ecuadorian diplomatic bag, or in an Ecuadorian diplomatic car.
Well, Nigeria tried it with Dikko, IIRC! :)
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>> He could presumably leave the embassy and go to Ecuador in an Ecuadorian diplomatic bag
It seems that the law around diplomatics bags can be murky at best. Some have claimed that they can be x-rayed, for example, and if there are strong suspicions that they crate contains non-privileged items (such as people) it may be that they can at least be delayed.
I might perhaps chuckle if Assange ended up getting irradiated or starving to death in a warehouse somewhere.
Last edited by: SteelSpark on Mon 20 Aug 12 at 18:43
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I think that idea was used before. Someone tried to leave a Nigerian embassy in a large crate, didn't work.
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Swedish appeals court upholds arrest warrant against Wikileaks founder Julian Assange in sexual assault case.
IIRC he recently seemed hopeful that he could soon get out of the embassy.
www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-30129453
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"Julian Assange is suspected of crimes of a relatively serious nature "
"Relatively serious" ? I thought rape was the most serious crime possible, so serious that unlike any other crime there can be no degrees of seriousness, and no mitigating factors?
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>> ..... so serious that
>> unlike any other crime there can be no degrees of seriousness, and no mitigating factors?
>>
And to save us all the bother, you're guilty without the necessity of a silly trial.....
8o(
Last edited by: neiltoo on Thu 20 Nov 14 at 16:28
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Foolproof plan
Assange invites Noel Edmonds to embassy. Assange can then tie him up a walk out unchallenged. The resemblance is remarkable. Added bonus is that Edmunds is sent to Sweden and extradited to US
Everyone wins.
Assange
www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-30129453
edmunds
static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Media/Columnists/Columnists/2012/4/11/1334155481216/Noel-Edmonds-008.jpg
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I'd like both of them put away?
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"Foolproof plan"
Wonderful!
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Good call CGN! I hadn't noticed the similarity until you mentioned. I see too much of Edmonds anyway as my partner is a fan of Deal or no Deal (Utter unmitigated dross - fat people with tattoos opening boxes and kissing each other a lot)
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Edmonds used to live round the corner to me when I was at primary school. He is the same age as me and we were in the same class. At 11 our lives diverged and he became rich and famous and I didn't. Not that I'm bitter
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And here is a picture of Edmonds and CGN taken at a school reunion!
tinyurl.com/46nxhj
;-)
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Wrong one, thats CGN and Noel Edmunds
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Julian Assange - Lygonos
