The alleged perpetrator of the murderous shootings in a Sikh temple in Wisconsin is said to be a member of a far-right, anti-Muslim organisation and to have tattoos to prove it. It's sad of course that there are a few people in the US and elsewhere who resemble slightly thick four-year-olds with the right to bear arms. No sane adult would imagine there was any point in shooting innocent Muslims in revenge for 9/11. What lifts this one to the stature of world-class idiot is the apparent inability to distinguish between Muslims and other people with dark skins and beards, the Sikh religion being a sort of branch of Hinduism.
There's a photo of the alleged perp in my comic today. A supercilious, contemptuous smirk and eyes (to quote a garish French novel I translated some years ago) 'two dangerous holes brimming with stupidity'.
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>> apparent inability to distinguish between Muslims and other people with dark skins and beards, the Sikh religion being a sort of branch of Hinduism.
Exactly! The Sikh religion was originated from Hinduism as a hardliner group to fight muslims.
PS: Many people in UK believe that "Asian" means muslim. Unfortunately it does not distinguish between Indian Hindus/Sikhs and Bangladeshi/Pakistani Muslims.
Last edited by: movilogo on Tue 7 Aug 12 at 13:57
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>>PS: Many people in UK believe that "Asian" means muslim. Unfortunately it does not distinguish between Indian Hindus/Sikhs and Bangladeshi/Pakistani Muslims.<<
May come as a shock but Indians also come in Christian form.
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yeah but muslim and hindu Indians think they are beneath contempt!
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>> yeah but muslim and hindu Indians think they are beneath contempt!
>>
" ... with about 1.22 billion people, India has a deeply religious, pluralistic society. A country with a Hindu majority, India is estimated to have the world’s third largest Muslim population and over 25 million Christians. The current Prime Minister is Sikh, the past president Muslim, and the head of the national governing alliance Catholic. Buddhist, Christian, Hindu, Muslim, Sikh, and Parsi holidays are public holidays. India has an independent judiciary and media, and a dynamic civil society. ... "
i.e. very nearly the same number of Christians as in England.
distribution in India
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:536px.PNG
Last edited by: John H on Tue 7 Aug 12 at 15:11
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>> muslim and hindu Indians think they are beneath contempt!
>>
I doubt that Zero. India has extremists, violent and mischievous individuals, but on the whole it's a tolerant, laid-back society as it needs to be.
Muslims are more likely to disapprove of Hinduism which is polytheistic - Islam has a rooted prejudice against the polytheism which prevailed in the Arabian peninsula until Islam arose - than Christianity, which is a monotheism.
In the early and great days of Muslim expansion, in the century or two following the death of the Prophet Muhammad, Muslim society based in Iraq was totally tolerant of Judaism and Christianity, and joined in their celebrations. Christian celebrations were much valued because of the booze that flowed at them.
Backward, exclusive, hostile Muslim fundamentalism is a modern political invention. It is emphatically not connected with the real roots of Islam.
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>> Backward, exclusive, hostile Muslim fundamentalism is a modern political invention.
Depends on how do you define "modern". Muslim rulers in India, since 15th century, destroyed Hindu temples and levied taxes on non-muslims.
>> May come as a shock but Indians also come in Christian form.
India has Hindus, Muslims, Christians, Sikhs, Buddhists, Jains and the list goes on.
Hinduism, Sikhism, Buddhism and Jainism were all originated from India.
Last edited by: movilogo on Tue 7 Aug 12 at 15:27
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Non-Muslims paid extra taxes even in old Baghdad, but they weren't crippling and the religions themselves were tolerated.
I guess the temple destruction in 15th-C. India was political, linked with the rise of the Mughal empire? India is broadly tolerant these days but that sort of thing still happens occasionally in both directions, and very harmful and dangerous it is.
Remember the Taliban blowing up those ancient, huge Buddha statues? A deliberate crime, and sin actually, for which the Taliban can never be forgiven. It's eternity in hell for them, richly deserved. Let's hope so anyway.
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One of the most moving interviews I heard at the time of the second Gulf War was an interview with the Anglican Bishop of Baghdad in the Christmas of that year. Being a little bit of a supporter of the under-dog I find stuff like that deeply impressive. Guy I got acquainted with locally was a Christian Syrian. How people survive when their religion puts them into conflict with their Government and community is impressive. The Pakistani who defied Taliban bigots about his Christian views and paid the ultimate price for it moved me, as did Dietrich Bonhoeffer's story in the dark days when Germany was under the heel of lunatics.
Last edited by: R.P. on Tue 7 Aug 12 at 16:06
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>> May come as a shock but Indians also come in Christian form.
>>
Indeed. Worked for several years with a fellow whose family hailed from Goa. By some length the most devout Catholic of the four or so in the unit who professed that faith.
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>> Indians also come in Christian form.
More importantly, 'Asians' are not just Indian, Pakistani and Bangladeshi but Chinese, Japanese and from a number of other quite populous nations and ethnic groups.
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Its the turban and beard that could confuse some numbskulls to think a Sikh was a Muslim, Sire.
And then there's the drip, drip, drip, from the Zionist media portraying Muslims as the baddies far too often.
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Its ironic, Sikhs are the only one we trust to go into a venue with a dagger.
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>> Its ironic, Sikhs are the only one we trust to go into a venue with
>> a dagger.
>>
And Scots
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>> >> Its ironic, Sikhs are the only one we trust to go into a venue
>> with
>> >> a dagger.
>> >>
>>
>> And Scots
Nope, not a hope, the Sgian Dhubh is banned. Quite right too, would trust a jock with a biro let alone a dagger,
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What about a jock, or anybody else, dressed as a Sikh?
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Its not the dress, its the beard and hair. I spose jocks are quite like sikhs in that respect, hairy with a funny accent.
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Tell me which media is Zionist so I can avoid the propaganda:) Or did you mean it's all zionist?
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>> And then there's the drip, drip, drip, from the Zionist media portraying Muslims as the
>> baddies far too often.
>>
Proves this forum is not immune from religious nutters spouting their own anti-zionist propaganda.
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Shows the danger of a Constitution, avowedly unalterable on the issue of bearing arms. A while ago I had a disconcerting exchange of views (on the net) with an American re muslims. I haven't met many to speak to, in any depth, but at least I have met one or two. One was an Imam as well as a scientist. The last time I met him was at a funeral, at an RC church, for a mutual colleague.
The American however, was pronouncing on Muslims, something to the effect that there are no Muslims but bad/jihad Muslims. He had never met one, he admitted eventually.
I believe he came from somewhere fairly isolated like Wyoming or Idaho.
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We have friends from Goa they follow the catholic religion so does my wife.I am open to anything whatever you want to believe is your bussiness.
This shooting and killing people happens far to much in Amerika.A empire on it's last legs?
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This shooting and killing people happens far to much in Amerika.A empire on it's last legs?
Still politically, financially and militarily top dog..
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I'm not so sure Dog military maybe all the wars they are involved in.The more intelligent Yanks are getting fed up.
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At least there isn't a McDonald's on Mars, yet!
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there are several in Slough.
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>> there are several in Slough.
>>
Slough could be on Mars for all I care...
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>> Slough could be on Mars for all I care...
Dunno about that, but Mars is in Slough. Big chocolate factory.
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and there just may be intelligent life on Mars :-)
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Is Heinz still there....or was that Greenford?
I'm sure I've loaded tea from Slough....PG Tips?
Pat
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>>This shooting and killing people happens far to much in Amerika.A empire on it's last legs?<<
Maybe ~ www.rt.com/news/bolivia-ban-coca-cola-581/
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Not that long ago I had a meeting with a Sikh family. Through the conversation their absolute hatred of muslims came through abundantly clear. This family have lived in Glasgow all their lives without any hassle but believe that since the Muslims started their bombings in UK etc that, collectively, all "Asians" are branded the same as far as many white people are concerned.
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When I was a toddler, we lived in a dump called Garston. Just along the street lived a sikh called Mr Sagoo ( I think my mum still exchanges christmas cards with him). My older brother and I would often go wandering the streets, but if Mr Sagoo was outside his house doing something when we returned, my brother would tell me to run past his house as fast as I could, because if Mr Sagoo caught me, he'd put me in his cooking pot!
And at a trade fair last year in Sweden, there was a sikh guy on one of the stands selling his wares. They're an unusual sight here, so I stopped to ask where he was from (expecting him to say Stockholm/Götebor/Malmö). Southall, he says, in a London accent.
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.....and a particularly honourable history of service in UK military.
Last edited by: R.P. on Tue 7 Aug 12 at 18:27
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>> .....and a particularly honourable history of service in UK military.
>>
"British people are highly indebted and obliged to Sikhs for a long time. I know that within this century we needed their help twice [in two world wars] and they did help us very well. As a result of their timely help, we are today able to live with honour, dignity, and independence. In the war, they fought and died for us, wearing the turbans."
—Sir Winston Churchill
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>> This family have lived in Glasgow all their lives without any hassle but believe that since the Muslims started their bombings in UK etc that, collectively, all "Asians" are branded the same as far as many white people are concerned.
But this is sad stuff Bobby, isn't it? It isn't very precise to blame bombings on 'the Muslims'. A crazed political minority calling themselves Muslims would be closer to the mark. Most Muslims by belief or background don't give a toss for that sort of thing, don't mind the occasional drink and are believers in a relaxed, CofE like manner. The worst they can be criticised for is keeping shtum, or only criticising mildly, these criminal acts and mad ranting in the name of their religion. In many cases they are intimidated by mad individuals they know by name, but I believe a protective reflex also plays a big part. It's the fault of non-Muslims for being so immoderate and indiscriminate in their criticisms of Islam or Muslims.
The West and its morons try to bully, and Muslims bite and scratch and hit below the belt in self-defence. It's a pathetic spectacle redolent of the human comedy at its worst. Only a doomed species would bite itself repeatedly in the posterior.
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>> But this is sad stuff Bobby, isn't it? It isn't very precise to blame bombings
>> on 'the Muslims'. A crazed political minority calling themselves Muslims would be closer to the
>> mark.
I agree with most of that...but..not all.
Where the problem is in my eyes, is the lack of open disgust or 'put down' of extremist views from the vast majority of non extreme Muslim people. They keep far too quiet on the subject. If my vote decided the fate of that Norwegian killer who did it allegedly for white Christian values.... I'd willingly have him executed. Similarly, if white, English football fans go on the rampage abroad...lock them up, for a very long time.
Same principle as the weariness some black people receive. If all the decent ones looked down their noses at the shenanigans of the few who perform and have dreadful chips on their shoulders and get way with things, because they can use their skin colour to allege all sorts...there'd be world harmony...because the only ones left causing trouble would be the true racists versus the true idiots. As it stands, a lot of decent folk in the middle get fed up with the shenanigans and prejudices remain...and so the whole merry go round goes on.
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>>Where the problem is in my eyes, is the lack of open disgust or 'put down' of extremist views from the vast majority of non extreme Muslim people. They keep far too quiet on the subject.
That is very unfair. What are "non-extreme Muslims" supposed to do? Put an advert in the paper? I'm sure most right thinking people of whatever creed are just as appalled by extremism.
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>> That is very unfair. What are "non-extreme Muslims" supposed to do?
Make it abundantly clear through their civic and religious leaders that extremism is a no-no. If a given mosque has hatred preached, stop using that mosque, go to another one.
There's been enough undercover reporting stuff done on it over the years..a blind eye is given ...and it's not good enough.
I do though genuinely think that the majority of all peoples are decent....but...the extremist needs to be given short shrift...not a hand wringing shrug of the shoulders and let them get on with it.
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>> Where the problem is in my eyes, is the lack of open disgust or 'put down' of extremist views from the vast majority of non extreme Muslim people. They keep far too quiet on the subject.
The vast majority just don't want to know. The true believers and mosque goers are sometimes a bit confused and may buy part of the Islamist discourse, although the intelligent ones don't. The problem is though that the bad guys know where they live, or can easily find out. The threat of harm, or at least hassle, is a real one.
As I said though there are other factors. You have to remember the perception a lot of Muslims have that the British in general and the authorities in particular have it in for them in general. They may be being a bit paranoid but that is really not surprising. There's a tendency to close ranks and be protective of Islam, even its dubious side.
There have been a few prominent Muslim spokesmen who were absolutely terrific. So good in fact that most people, Muslim and otherwise, just didn't get what they said. Alas, such people are rare in all communities.
In a way you are right Westpig. They need to shape up. But so do we, even more, so that they think it might be worthwhile to stick their necks out. And frankly we, as a nation, aren't good enough in this area.
All this quite apart from the 'unchangeability' and 'literal eternal truth' of the Quran which presents Muslim believers in the modern world with a number of philosophic conundrums. Christianity was domesticated politically some four or five hundred years ago, not without strife and bloodshed. Islam is four hundred years younger and hasn't gone through that one yet. We just have to hope that there won't be too much collateral damage when it does.
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Thanks AC, that incorporates what I was grasping at yesterday. From the pov of a moderate Muslim, it must seem that keeping their heads down is the wisest course with regard not only to the militants but also the non-Muslim majority.
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>> moderate Muslim, it must seem that keeping their heads down is the wisest course with
>> regard not only to the militants but also the non-Muslim majority.
>>
See
www.car4play.com/forum/post/index.htm?t=11527&m=256354&v=e
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>> >> There's a tendency to close ranks and be protective of Islam,
>> even its dubious side.
>>
That's the difficulty an ordinary native English person has when trying to understand any religious controversy.
We just don't get excited over religion, and cannot understand how anyone else can. For centuries almost we have had an easy-going club called the Cof E. Everyone gets enrolled in it automatically, but you don't need to have anything to do with it if you don't want to. You can turn up as and when you want, and there is really no need to believe in much if any of the God stuff. There is no religious dress, no symbolic headgear, daggers etc you need to wear, and the staff have always been friendly relaxed chaps long intermarried into the ordinary social mix, from aristocratic bishop to young eager working-class curate.
There is no feeling of a need to close ranks - there aren't any ranks. When groups like Ulster protestants start to get wound up about something, we find it rather embarassing.
If asked what "community" I belong to, "Christian" is the last thing I'd think of.
Classic car, boating, small-holding, recycling, SME business, perhaps. I think the trouble with extremists is they don't have any hinterland.
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Which makes a good point Cliff. Why should an ordinary bloke who happens to be a Muslim consider himself defined by his religion, or in any way accountable for the extremism of people he has nothing to do with.
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>> Why should an ordinary bloke who happens to be
>> a Muslim consider himself defined by his religion,
>>
Or taking it a stage further, why should an ordinary atheist bloke feel Muslim just because his family or ancestors were?
I accept that for some reason they do, like Jews. But it's hard to picture a similar feeling towards Christianity just because my family were Christians.
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I think you are talking about the CoE, not christianity. You have to bear in mind the CoE was formed by one bloke who was fed up being told what he could and couldn't do by "the church" (and of course it gave him a crack at grabbing the "old church" money)
Given that fairly lax adherence to (or the complete absence of) "rules" in the roots of the CoE is not surprising we dont feel bound by it or to it.
All the other mainstream religions (including some christian ones) are full of "rules" -
Last edited by: Zero on Wed 8 Aug 12 at 11:13
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>> All the other mainstream religions (including some christian ones) are full of "rules" -
>>
Presumably you therefore exclude as religions the "way of life" cults of Hinduism, Sikhism and Buddhism which are not "full of rules":
"Hinduism has no single founder, no single scripture, and no commonly agreed set of teachings. Writers often refer to Hinduism as 'a way of life' "
"Sikhs believe that human beings spend their time in a cycle of birth, life, and rebirth. They share this belief with followers of other Indian religious traditions such as Hinduism, Buddhism"
"Buddhism is a spiritual tradition that focuses on personal spiritual development and the attainment of a deep insight into the true nature of life."
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Did I say that if they have no rules they are not religions?
I would stick to cut and pasting if I were you, you cant mess that up.
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>> That's the difficulty an ordinary native English person has when trying to understand any religious
>> controversy.
>> We just don't get excited over religion, and cannot understand how anyone else can.
>>
Applies to most people of most religions.
However, as an atheist all I know about religions is that some claim to be the only true religion as recognised by God, and anyone who is not a believer of that religion is referred in a derogatory manner as a "kafir" or a "goy". The pushy self-righteous religions tend to have "missionaries" hell bent on converting others to their faith.
On the other hand, afaik, "lifestyle religions" such as Buddhism, Sikhism, and Hinduism do not have missionaries and most followers of those lifestyles put down your choice of "religion" to "karma", and let you live and let live.
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This was the case in the past regarding most religions you don't believe in our God or pope and you are dead.Christianity has converted many people by force not a good excample.
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Or you drive Puitan dissidents with the CoE away to Massachusets, and they find new ways of being annoying where they settle:)
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Sikh society - movilogo
