I found out in the last year that when my dad was 19 he had a baby, a girl, with a lady he was dating at the time. He last saw her when she was 9 months old, he still has a handful of pictures that I let me see for the first time, taken all the way back in 1959 when he met up with the mother while he was on shore leave.
Anyhow, couple of things stood out. We have obtained a copy of her birth certificate and it appears the birth was registered two years after she was born and there is a mention of some Act in reference to the registration - I thought you had to register births sooner than two years?
One theory is that as my dad was away in the Navy at the time, she was hoping to marry him when he returned ( though it was never said and he married someone else a year afterwards ) so she was resisiting registering the birth as an illegitimate birth with no father on the cert incase she married him and all was OK - sound reasonable for the late 50's?
I also wondered obviously what happened to my half sister who would be 53 right now - its likely she doesnt know who her father is or that I exist, so do I really need to call in Davina and Long Lost Family before trying to find her? I know where she was in 1961 but after that its unclear so Im trying to trace her mother first, though not easy either.
Anyone have any experience of this sort of thing from either side? I dont mind myself finding new siblings, but I know thats not everyones feeling and I do so from a position of comfort in that I know my mum and dad, whereas a child my dad hasnt seen in 52 years may have a lot of other issues.
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Or she may have a perfectly stable and loving life and no wish to take on your issues! ;p
Seriously, if she wants to find out she will find you, you have no idea what problems you may create in her family and life by gate crashing.
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Well theres the thing, Im not sure she could as he mother could be dead by this point and if she didnt tell her about my dad, theres no paper trail at all, I only know because my dad remembers it all, but it dies with him which is why he told me.
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Look, she may hate your dad for dumping her and her mum
Imagine the feelings of rejection, and how it might upset your dad.
She may have a dad she loves(loved) you may destroy that relationship/
Memory
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I hear what you are saying Zero and it is a very valid point, but I have also met people in very similar circumstances as FoR who did really appreciate finding out and have struck up friendships in later life.
The thing is he will never know what she feels until they meet. They can then agree to take it further or leave it.
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I also know someone who was told her father had died that caused severe friction with her still alive mother when she found out the truth
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My brother-in-law didn't know he had a half-brother until his mother died, aged nearly 90. It seems for decades she had done things like paid into life assurance plans for this 'child' and no-one ever knew.
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What I do know is that back in '59 this lady's parents were nice to my dad and supportive to their daughter, so my dad said unusually for the time, its possible the situation was handled quite well by the family all things considered.
There is no father on the birth cert so I expect she would have seen she has no dad recorded in the past 53 years, few people get through life having never looked at their own cert.
What has prompted me to locate if not contact is that my dads aunty had a baby in the late 40's who was adopted out. Recently at age 60 he came looking for his birth mother and sadly we had to tell him that she died two years ago. Now he is still thrilled to have met all his cousins who knew his birth mother all across her life, but we all know he really wanted to meet his mother and ive no idea if my sister would want to know any of us, but since im in possession of information she may not have, I do feel id be responsible if out there somewhere she did want to know and she didnt have that chance to meet her father because I was too cautious.
Its a catch 22 for sure.
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So your scenario is very much more like the one I was referring to.
In that case the lady in question was very pleased to have met her half brother after some 40 years - even though she now lives in the US. He went over there, exchanged photos etc.
Even though she should have suffered the rejection and anger that Zero makes mention of, this certainly did not happen. Both parties were very pleased they found out and discovered what the other side of their "family" had done.
As you mention, if a significant person dies without their knowledge, the person can feel robbed of the opportunity.
At least this way they have a choice.
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So if I read this correctly:
The father is alive, has not made any attempt to find/contact his daughter for 52 years, has kept her photos from when she was 9 months old, ...
>> but it dies with him which is why he told me. >>
So is Dad now happy to pass on the emotional (guilt?) burden to his son?
>> We have obtained a copy of her birth certificate >>
Who do you mean by "we"? You and your Dad?
I agree with Zero. As the saying goes, best to let sleeping dogs lie.
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>>The father is alive, has not made any attempt to find/contact his daughter for 52 years, has kept her photos from when she was 9 months old, ...<<
Yes, he was in the Navy and within a year living in Singapore, they had moved when he got back and they didnt have the easily searched records we do now.
>>So is Dad now happy to pass on the emotional (guilt?) burden to his son?<<
I dont feel guilty, he is giving me a chance to do something about it. I think the guilt is his though he hides it well.
>>Who do you mean by "we"? You and your Dad?<<
Hardly relevant, but actually my mum did since you ask.
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Difficult one...but... I'm in the camp of 'go for it'.
If the lady concerned doesn't really want to know, she'll give off that vibe or tell you so. On the other hand it might change her life for the better, having some more knowledge of what happened at that time.
You'll never know unless you try.
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I know where she was in 1961 but after that its unclear so Im trying to trace her mother first, though not easy either.....
FoR - Not quite the same but I posted last week about the successful search for my Uncles family and I found a delightful cousin who I did not know existed. When I found her address I wrote to her and asked her to phone me if she wanted to. If she had not wanted to then no problem.
Do not underestimate the power of Google. I found masses of information on my Uncle because there are a lot of websites on WW11 remembrance but you never know what you might turn up.
If you have it, do a search on the mothers full maiden name on the free BMD ( Births Marriages and Deaths website ) and see if you can find out if she married .
It follows that if the mother was the same age as your Dad then she probably married so look for marriages in the same parish or area where she and your father lived from 1959 onwards say the next ten years and this should give you some possible matches.
If she married then you will be able to then get the husbands name from the same website and therefore the likely new surname of your half sister.
Last edited by: retpocileh on Tue 31 Jul 12 at 11:54
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This is the link to use to see if the mum married .
www.freebmd.org.uk/
It is surprising how often people stay in the same area all their lives.
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>>This is the link to use to see if the mum married .<<
Cheers, im a family history veteran, I can find records ok, its more finding the right ones as by the 60's people moved about alot and the surnames are quite common. I think ive found my sisters marriage in the same area she was born in, im hoping there might be a clue about her mother there.
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OK - I did not have the same problem as my mothers maiden name and my surname are not quite as common as many - If you live in Wales and your name is Jones you may have a problem.....
If you have not tried it already why not search her suspected full married name in the phone 192 website ?
See if you get a match with the full name first names of the husband whose first name you should have from the BMD site. 192 covers the whole country so if you get a match you can get an address and phone number ( you may have to pay)......
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>> >>Who do you mean by "we"? You and your Dad?<<
>>
>> Hardly relevant, but actually my mum did since you ask.
>>
>>
Most certainly very relevant and important.
The father is the responsible and key person in all of this. What part is he playing, if any - apart from having passed his guilt on to you?
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"Dogs, sleeping, lie!" Rearrange!
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>>The father is the responsible and key person in all of this. What part is he playing, if any - apart from having passed his guilt on to you?<<
I dont do other peoples guilt, Im a forward looking person, not a emotionally obessed navel gazer. If my dad feels guilty, so he should, I stuck around in my sons life despite being invited to walk away, but Im also not going to second guess why things happened as they did, life isnt perfect and nor are people. It obviously mattered to him that he kept the pictures 50+ years, so I assume he was just too much of a coward to act on it, not making him the worlds first coward by any means.
He is providing me as much info as he can remember. The man can barely operate a computer so if I was expecting him to spend hours searching online, id be pretty foolish, its not going to happen and ill die waiting for him to aquire the skills. All he can do is help me confirm information. I know my father and the only reason he told me is because he knew id look her up. He doesnt communicate well, but I understand when he tries.
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FoR, the poet Philip Larkin has it right.
If the "f" word offends please do not open the link.
www.artofeurope.com/larkin/lar2.htm
Whatever you do, you're now stuck with it and can't erase it - I'd probably do nothing with the knowledge.
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>> FoR, the poet Philip Larkin has it right.
Cheerful bloke, was he? :)
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get looking, you can decide what you do with the info you gain at a later time. there are specialist people who deal with this sort of thing if you can pay for her to be found. we found my mums lost half sister but the private dick we hired was expensive. he specialised in this sort of thing and was excellent and made first contact and left the info with her. she decided to make contact with my mum about 6months later through the private detective.
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I was adopted at 8 weeks old. It never bothered me, and still doesn't; my adoptive parents, the only ones I've ever known, were quite open about it, and never discouraged me from finding out about my origins. I never tried, though, whilst they were still alive.
My own marriage broke down quite early on, and my own kids ended up being placed in foster care with a view to adoption, when my daughter was 5 and my son 3. This came to pass, without my consent; I still have a score to settle with a particular social worker in this respect, the only grudge I've ever held in my life. I did get to see my kids once, some seven years later, this at my daughter's request; however their adoptive parents felt that regular contact would do more harm than good, and persuaded me to "stay in the background" until they'd completed their education. I agreed, but realistically had no choice in the matter; my own personal experience of adoption helped to ease my sense of loss, and I consoled myself with the thought that my children had a stable home and upbringing which I had been unable to provide for them.
After my father's death in 2002, I purchased my first computer, and found Friends Re-United. Through that medium, after five years and having virtually given up all hope, my daughter contacted me. We are now a family once again, and I am a proud grandfather to her four lovely children. My son also contacted me shortly before my re-marriage in 2009, and whilst we are not nearly so close as I am to my daughter, we are at least in contact.
Whilst looking for them, I decided to look for my own flesh and blood. My quest was partially successful; I have located my maternal aunt, who lives in Palo Alto, California, and we have sparadic contact. Regrettably she has had no contact with my mother since about 1964.
My advice.... feste lente. Make approaches through a sympathetic third party if you can; as has been said above it might not be an issue which some wish to discuss. My own sister (who is like me adopted and is not in fact a blood relation) is in total denial about her own origins, I have to be careful because her own children do not know.
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>> Quite moving that HM.
>>
It's life mate.... I'm luckier than many.
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>> It's life mate.... I'm luckier than many.
Always thought you were cool and humane Hogman, and still do. But there's a hard stern core in there somewhere which you have now explained.
This has nothing to do with whether you or I agree on this or that.
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Excellent post Harleyman.
I got close to my boss at work in the 90's, he was old enough to be my father, had a sense of humour like mine, handled work like I did.. and looked after me when I went through a rough period (divorce).
I knew he'd been through a divorce years earlier and had lost contact with his kids, but other than that I only received the brave face that we men are so good (bad) at.
He went on holiday and asked me to open his post, telling me there was nothing sent to him at work that I shouldn't see...so I opened a hand written letter from his son, the son he hadn't seen or spoken to for well over 15 years and who was now an adult making his way in life.
I'm not about to repeat much but Christ that letter put a lump in my throat...still does. It very roughly said at one point something like 'now i'm an adult I can see there were two sides to the story'.
Suffice to say it was a strange phone call I made to him, two grown men desperately trying not to show any emotion. We laugh about it now, funnily enough I met up with him a couple of weeks ago, he lives the other side of Dartmoor to me.
I'm glad to say they are somewhat reconciled and have a healthy father/son relationship..he even got to go to his son's wedding... although wasn't looking forward to meeting his ex.
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>> We have obtained a copy of her birth certificate
>> and it appears the birth was registered two years after she was born and there
>> is a mention of some Act in reference to the registration - I thought you
>> had to register births sooner than two years?
tinyurl.com/dx2gu2z
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>> ........... so she was resisiting registering the
>> birth as an illegitimate birth ............
Be wary of using the phrase "illegitimate birth". Apparently some of the younger generation find it offensive.
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Most people find it offensive.
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>> Most people find it offensive.
>>
Very few of my generation find it offensive. Illegitimacy is a concept that we grew up with. In my younger days, and for earlier generations, having a child out of wedlock carried great shame. Women would leave their home and go to a different area to have the child. My mother was born out of wedlock and my grandmother left home to have the child. The subject of my unknown grandfather was never discussed by my parents. I could be related to the lord of the manor or the village idiot.
Last edited by: L'escargot on Wed 1 Aug 12 at 10:33
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>>Women would leave their home and go to a different area to have the child<<
My sister's mum was living in Walthamstow but had the baby in Chelmsford, a case in point.
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>> Illegitimacy is a concept that we grew up with.
>> In my younger days, and for earlier generations, having a child out of wedlock carried great shame.
>>Women would leave their home and go to a different area to have the child.
>>
Or In the war when the husband was in the forces and maybe abroad a few other options were there.
My mother adopted by brother as a baby in 1943.
He knew he was adopted and was very close to her all his life but to my understanding was not in the least interested in tracking his birth mother.
When my mother died I found a small piece of paper in her effects.
It was just a few lines from the classified adverts in a local paper.
It was advertising my brother.
Thinking about it always makes me well up. The happiness in my family but also thoughts of what a terrible situation when a mother has to resort to that action.
Of course I have no other information about what triggered the advert nor shall I explore.
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>>Be wary of using the phrase "illegitimate birth". Apparently some of the younger generation find it offensive.
I don't see why as an ever increasing number are bastards and seem prepared to continue the practice.
Edit: Bastard is a perfectly legitimate word to describe the offspring of a couple not legally married!
Last edited by: R.P. on Wed 1 Aug 12 at 09:52
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Not a nice way to label a person though, through no fault of their own.
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>> Not a nice way to label a person though, through no fault of their own.
I don't see why. It's like being accused of ignorance. Ignorant means don't know. I've no perception of nuclear physics, which makes me ignorant.
Nothing to do with owning the KIA. ;>)
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>> Nothing to do with owning the KIA. ;>)
Makes you an ignorant b****** tho;)
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>>Makes you an ignorant b****** tho;)
Ignorant orphan, I've the marriage certificate to prove it. ;>)
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...Not a nice way to label a person though, through no fault of their own...
My father died when I was very young, mother did not remarry, so I was teased as a b****** at school on the basis my tormentors could see no sign of a father.
Wouldn't happen now, single parent households are probably in the majority in some areas.
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>Edit: Bastard is a perfectly legitimate word to describe the offspring of a couple not legally married!"
What's wrong with son or daughter?
Last edited by: VxFan on Wed 1 Aug 12 at 10:14
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I use the term illegitimate because we are talking about a situation in 1959 and I was asking in the context of that period when having a baby out of wedlock was most definately not a 'good thing', however Im not old enough to have lived then, whereas some of you are, hence some of you may understand the reasoning for the delayed birth registration better than I, hence I asked.
Applying 2012 political correctness to 1959 serves no purpose in trying to understand a 1959 situation.
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>>
>> Applying 2012 political correctness to 1959 serves no purpose in trying to understand a 1959
>> situation.
>>
True, and your suggested explanation might well be correct. You only have to read novels of the period to get a picture of the consternation an event like this would cause in a "respectable" family, and the pressure that might be put on a daughter to get the father to "do the honest thing".
I second the view that you should approach this very cautiously. You have no way of knowing in advance how the information and contact might be received. Some might welcome it, and you, others might be devastated at having their perhaps accepted version of their origins upset.
It is not the same as finding an unknown cousin say (which I have done), because it calls into question the actions and motives of people regarding their treatment of their own children, and the children's feelings for their own parents.
Also be aware of Freud's theories regarding incest.
www.guardian.co.uk/theguardian/2003/may/17/weekend7.weekend2
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>> Also be aware of Freud's theories regarding incest.
>> www.guardian.co.uk/theguardian/2003/may/17/weekend7.weekend2
>>
I never thought about that. My unknown grandfather might have been my grandmother's brother.
Last edited by: L'escargot on Wed 1 Aug 12 at 10:53
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>> I never thought about that. My unknown grandfather might have been my grandmother's brother.
>>
Or father. It sounds unthinkable, but these things happen(ed) and naturally it was in everyone's interests to hush them up.
The Freud theory is that normally the incest taboo is instilled very early on by conditioning in upbringing, and the normal attractions between family members are suppressed, or at least channelled into acceptable outlets of sibling closeness.
But siblings who were separated early on will feel the attraction if reunited later but will have had none of the taboo conditioning.
There was an interesting programme a year or so ago by someone who had researched into Victorian ideas of cousinship and cousin marriage, which was very common then. He concluded that cousinship had a peculiar position in Victorian society as a kind of half-way between siblings and unrelated friends - in effect cousins were siblings you were allowed to marry.
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>>Be wary of using the phrase "illegitimate birth". Apparently some of the younger generation find it offensive<<
My son is born out of wedlock but I suppose unlike 1959, these days the father gets entered on the birth cert even if he doesnt have the same surname as the mother, as in my case.
Ive no idea what that makes him in the terminology and to be honest, I dont really care so much, but then im not easily offended either.
In 2012 its a miracle if any child is born to married parents!
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At least until very recently the Father (of children born to unwed) went on the birth certificate if they wanted to be and attended the registration. Certainly the case with my two in 92 & 94.
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Yes I had to attend in '06 to get my name on.
Looking at family history records though none of the children born more than 50 years ago have the father on the cert if the parents werent married though I think often when the parents were living together as a married couple but not infact married, they did lie and register the child as a married couple.
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>> In 2012 its a miracle if any child is born to married parents!
>>
Perhaps at some time in the future it will become compulsory for parents to be unmarried!
:-D
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>>Perhaps at some time in the future it will become compulsory for parents to be unmarried!
:-D<<
I think it is in some places :-p
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Marriage will very soon be limited only to couples of the same gender !
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The finding of a sibling - Zero
