Howdo,
We keep getting sales calls from companies offering to install solar panels. I am not at all keen as I am a natural cynic and can't help thinking that if it was so great, surely there'd be loads more houses with them? Mrs B, however, is showing signs of being interested.
Does anybody here have them? How much were they to install? Do they save you money?
I guess I was even more put off when one of the callers said something along the lines of "it's no problem if you don't like the look of them, we can install them on the back of the house where they won't be as visible.". Now, I'm no expert but I thought that they had to be installed where they would catch the most sunlight, not just where they looked prettiest?
Anyway, thanks in advance.
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>> Howdo,
>>
>> We keep getting sales calls from companies offering to install solar panels. I am not
>> at all keen as I am a natural cynic and can't help thinking that if
>> it was so great, surely there'd be loads more houses with them? Mrs B, however,
>> is showing signs of being interested.
Tell her to stick her head out the window, and when she gets wet ask how her " How much solar money do you think we are gonna make from this?"
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A house up the road had some fitted last year, two banks of three, with two banks of two underneath. They appear to be fixed to long brackets which I assume are fixed to the roof joists? and sit about six-inches clear of the tiles.
At first, all the panels were neat and level, but since the last lot of gales, all are now uneven, and several tiles have slipped into the gutter. This can only be caused by the wind getting between the panels and roof, and trying to lift them, thereby flexing the joists and loosening the tiles.
Increased insurance premiums will likely eat away any "profit" made by the panels, that is IF the occupiers have insurance that is!
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I'm seeing them on more and more roofs round here.
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Most hideous home "improvement" since stone cladding. If I was buying a house with them fitted I would want the cost of their removal taken into account in the price.
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You can stick yer solar panels where the sun don't shine.
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£14K to install. Current reading is 2450. That's a FIT of £1090. Exactly 8 weeks to go. I was hoping to achieve £1400 + to equate to a 10% return. However I've not factored in savings on the electric bill but might do that in Sept to get a true reading.
To be fair it has been a really crap overcast summer up to press which has prevented good electricity production over long daylight days. On a good day I can produce 25/26 Kw but those have been few and far between recently.
A good investment? Lets put it this way, if you had stuck the money in an Annuity would you get a 10% return?
Since the FIT reduced to half the figure instillation prices seem to have reduced drastically so it might still be worth a punt.
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>> Lets put it this way, if you had stuck the money in an Annuity would you get a 10% return?
So you're assuming the panels and other parts function correctly for how long to get a good return and also the cost of installation and removal back? At some point they will need removing and the initial £14k is gone of course. Eventually the panels are worthless aren't they?
I can how getting £1400pa for fifteen years will probably be a better return than sticking the £14k in a bank account or other investment. But after only 10 years all you've done is get your money back plus had some free electric.
The biggest problem with the solar panels is when people don't pay for them outright and get a company to install on your roof and promise money etc. It then becomes impossible to sell the house and even to remortgage.
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When I've made £15.400 then the instillation is paid for and I've made 10% on my investment. How long that will be is down to the weather but based on the first year this could be 9/10 years providing nothing need replacing.
There is a small gamble in there but again 10% interest on savings is not to be had elsewhere without risk.
Last edited by: Fullchat on Thu 5 Jul 12 at 23:08
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I am surprised the income from the panels is not treated as such and therefore taxed. :-)
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It might only be time :(
Last edited by: Fullchat on Thu 5 Jul 12 at 23:15
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>> I am surprised the income from the panels is not treated as such and therefore
>> taxed. :-)
>>
The whole purpose of the FIT scheme devised by Labour was to act as an incentive to get people to install the panels and get the industry established. Taxing it as "income" would have been counter productive, and added another bureaucratic hurdle to the process. The scheme would then have had to inflate the FIT payments to negate the effects of tax.
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If after 10 years your original investment of £10,000 is worth £15,400 it hardly seems worthwhile. £10,000 invested in an ISA at a modest rate of 3% per annum will be worth £13,350 in 10 years and you have access to your capital throughout the ten year period.
Then there is the question as to whether the panels add or detract from the value of the house.
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>> If after 10 years your original investment of £10,000 is worth £15,400 it hardly seems
>> worthwhile. £10,000 invested in an ISA at a modest rate of 3% per annum will
>> be worth £13,350 in 10 years and you have access to your capital throughout the
>> ten year period.
>>
My choice - Solar panels at old FIT rate on a suitable roof as a better bet than an ISA .
>> Then there is the question as to whether the panels add or detract from the
>> value of the house.
>>
Soon, these will be "de rigueur", same as double-glazing and central-heating are now.
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>> My choice - Solar panels at old FIT rate on a suitable roof as a better bet than an ISA .
But you can get the capital out of an ISA. The roof is something that needs to generate an income over a longer period. If you had to sell or they were damaged then things change. I understand it's a gamble and some choose to take it. Best of luck.
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>> But you can get the capital out of an ISA. The roof is something that
>> needs to generate an income over a longer period. If you had to sell or
>> they were damaged then things change.
>>
I have a "glass half full" outlook.
>> I understand it's a gamble and some choose to take it. Best of luck.
"Qui audet adipiscitur"
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>> If after 10 years your original investment of £10,000 is worth £15,400 it hardly seems worthwhile.
The initial investment was £14000.
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>> The initial investment was £14000.
True - It's worse than I thought. £14,000 at 3% compound = £18,814 after 10 years.
I suppose there's the income from the electricity but I'm personally not convinced. As for panels becoming "de rigeur' after 10 year I suspect that the technology will move on and the panels we see now will quickly be seen as old technology and inefficient.
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>> I can how getting £1400pa for fifteen years will probably be a better return than
>> sticking the £14k in a bank account or other investment. But after only 10 years
>> all you've done is get your money back plus had some free electric.
>>
After loft insulation, there is no other home improvement which will get you these types of returns. You are also neglecting the inflation proofing of the FIT payments, and the saving against future energy price rises.
It is (was) a no-brainer for those with suitable roofs while the original FIT scheme bonanza lasted.
>> The biggest problem with the solar panels is when people don't pay for them outright
>> and get a company to install on your roof and promise money etc. It then
>> becomes impossible to sell the house and even to remortgage.
>>
You have raised a theoretical/potential problem. I have not heard of any cases of what you describe having happened in reality.
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I think cavity-wall insulation gives a pretty good return too.
At present the inverters are reckoned to be good for 10 yrs (the device that changes DC to 240v AC) - and cost around a grand to renew.
The cells should last 25+ yrs with only a modest drop in output.
10yrs from now, of course, it is very likely that both inverters and cells will be much cheaper than today if PV cell use increases.
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"I think cavity-wall insulation gives a pretty good return too."
Not convinced by that either. I know of a house where there have been big problems with damp penetration. That cavity was put there for a reason!
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>> Not convinced by that either. I know of a house where there have been big
>> problems with damp penetration. That cavity was put there for a reason!
>>
Cavity walls are so passé.
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>> I think cavity-wall insulation gives a pretty good return too.
>>
My house was "retro-fitted" as it did not have the cavity filled when first built.
Apart from the savings in heating bills, the biggest advantage I have found is the comfort of an almost uniform temperature across the house. Except for very cold days, I am able to keep the whole house warm with the living room gas fire set on minimum. The CH rarely comes on, and no heating is needed for more than 6 months of the year.
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I had the cavity fitted when our house was build.We have a electric fire in the living room.Plus gas central heating.All our rooms are kept warm with the CH when needed.
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>At present the inverters are reckoned to be good for 10 yrs (the device that changes DC to
>240v AC) - and cost around a grand to renew.
If a new inverter is around a grand, their profit margin must be at least 70%.
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Must've been a bad install, or a particularly violent weather pattern. I'm on a PV forum and there was plenty of discussion that people's PV panels had survived the massive hail stones OK but the solar water ones (which are essentially just tubes) were mostly broken.
My insurers weren't interested when I told them about the panels.
Have to agree they are not the prettiest house adornment but the investment should pay off well over the 25 years that the Govt guarantee the payments for. And I like days when I use zero power from the Grid, despite the washing machine, dishwasher etc etc having been on :-) - though as stated they have been all too few this year. If you take into account the additional daylight hours, March has been the best month by far this year.
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If you can give me some specifics - roof length, roof height (you can count how many tiles up to the ridge and an approximate overlap measurement which is usually either 10cm or 30cm), orientation of roof (nearest south) I can give you some reasonably accurate figures. If you are happy to provide address as well I can give very accurate figures!
Don't go for cold call companies - by and large they are rip off merchants. If they have however wetted your appetite then find a well established local company or two and approach them yourself.
Be quick though since the feed in tariff goes down to 16p and the tax free, index linking reduces to 20 years from 1st August.
If you are in the Herts/Beds/Bucks area then I would be more than happy to quote you professionally.
Peter
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...If you are in the Herts/Beds/Bucks area then I would be more than happy to quote you professionally...
He's in Southport, which I reckon is a bit too far north to get the best out of panels, although I've seen a few in County Durham.
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We would like a price for Aqua panels. They should work this summer!
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You'd be surprised how well our systems are doing despite the weather. At least the panels are being kept clean!
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>> ...If you are in the Herts/Beds/Bucks area then I would be more than happy to
>> quote you professionally...
>>
>> He's in Southport, which I reckon is a bit too far north to get the
>> best out of panels, although I've seen a few in County Durham.
>>
>>
>> Certainly out of our coverage area, but if op still wants to give me the roof dimensions/orientation I am more than happy to give him an idea of what to expect, both from yield and cost perspectives. At least then he'll know if someone is trying to rip him off!
Last edited by: PeteW on Fri 6 Jul 12 at 08:42
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Cheers for the offer, Pete. However, short of getting up there with a tape measure (which, believe me, is not going to happen!) I am not too sure how to get the measurements that you need.
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>> Cheers for the offer, Pete. However, short of getting up there with a tape measure
>> (which, believe me, is not going to happen!) I am not too sure how to
>> get the measurements that you need.
>>
I can start with address details and look on google maps. If you are able to measure the length of the house brick to brick and email this and your address to me at peter@s-power.co.uk I can do a pretty accurate set of calculations for you.
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It's not really an investment because you can't get your money back. All you can do is hope that you might recover the money as part of the house selling price. But if house prices slump the panels will be worthless.
Less than worthless if I'm interested in buying your house, because I would want a price reduction to pay for removing them and reinstating the roof.
Also the rules are bound to change. Do you trust any government to maintain the tariffs that apparently make it worthwhile?
What will you do when they discover in 10 years time that the panels don't last as long as predicted?
We had grant-aided panels fitted on the roof at work. 10% of the panels have failed after 5 years. They need regular cleaning and clearing away of seagull's nests, or the output drops.
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>> It's not really an investment because you can't get your money back.
Well you need to make really good annual income to also recoup you initial costs. And as you say what if they go wrong - sounds like the ones at work show they might not last as long as ten years.
For someone to say they can get 10% returns is not quite right as you also need to consider the recovery of installation costs. I'd not assume they'd last more than 15 years when doing calculations. So if they cost £14k, and generate income of £1.4k a year, then in fifteen years you have £21k. How much would £14k make in other investments over that time?
And here's a question, over the 15 years, where do you put the £1.4k pa that does not erode it through the effects of inflation? :-)
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>> It's not really an investment because you can't get your money back. All you can
>> do is hope that you might recover the money as part of the house selling
>> price. But if house prices slump the panels will be worthless.
>> Less than worthless if I'm interested in buying your house, because I would want a
>> price reduction to pay for removing them and reinstating the roof.
>>
I just don't get this attitude.
Do people who buy homes say to the vendor : I don't want to buy your house because it has kitchens/bathrooms/central-heating/windows/doors/bricks (or whatever) that I don't like and you will have to reduce the price because I don't like your taste (or whatever), and in any case they will need repairing/maintenance/replacement in x years time?
If they did that to me, I would say don't bother even looking at my house, go find someone else to amuse with your attitude.
Why does any utility have to be an "investment" and free from potential costs for repairs/maintenance/replacement?
>> Also the rules are bound to change.
>>
For future installations, yes.
>> Do you trust any government to maintain the tariffs that apparently make it worthwhile?
>>
For the n-th time, the Govt. does not pay these tariffs. The contract is not "renegotiable", the price is fixed at FIT + inflation for the contract duration.
>> We had grant-aided panels fitted on the roof at work. 10% of the panels have
>> failed after 5 years. They need regular cleaning and clearing away of seagull's nests, or
>> the output drops.
>>
Stuff fails, stuff needs maintenance, C'est la vie.
Some people even die less than a day after the panels are fitted.
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"I just don't get this attitude."
Unlike most home improvements the sole reason for installing solar panels is to save money. If on the other hand I spend say £20,000 on a conservatory or a new kitchen hopefully I will get some benefit and use from the money I have spent.
If I spend £20,000 on solar panels and it does not save me any money and actually makes my house less saleable or reduces its value then there is no point whatsoever in installing them. From the figures I have seen I am unconvinced they will save me money. If I had a choice of two identical houses to buy and one had solar panels and the other didn't I would buy the one without. I would not wish to buy a potential problem.
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Boilers breakdown. Double glazing has a limited lifespan. Kitchens and bathrooms only last so long. Property needs constant upkeep.
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>> Unlike most home improvements the sole reason for installing solar panels is to save money.
Not true.
>> If on the other hand I spend say £20,000 on a conservatory or a new
>> kitchen hopefully I will get some benefit and use from the money I have spent.
>>
You will get more than "some benefit and use" from solar panels.
>> If I spend £20,000 on solar panels and it does not save me any money
>> and actually makes my house less saleable or reduces its value then there is no
>> point whatsoever in installing them.
All false.
>> From the figures I have seen I am unconvinced they
>> will save me money. If I had a choice of two identical houses to buy
>> and one had solar panels and the other didn't I would buy the one without.
>> I would not wish to buy a potential problem.
>>
Either you have not seen the right figures, or have not had them explained to you correctly.
>> If I had a choice of two identical houses to buy
>> and one had solar panels and the other didn't I would buy the one without.
>> I would not wish to buy a potential problem.
>>
In a few years time, your choice of homes without the panels will dwindle considerably.
June 2011:
www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2011/jun/20/solar-panel-price-drop
May 2012:
"sharpest falls in the prices of PV technology in recent memory. Average PV module prices have fallen by nearly 75% in the past three years, to the point where solar power is now competitive with daytime retail power prices in a number of countries."
Very soon, it won't be a case of how much does a FiT scheme pay, it will be a case of "solar is the cheapest source of electricity for my home regardless of any incentives".
However, British human nature being what it is, it may take many Luddite Brits a while to "get with it".
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>> However, British human nature being what it is, it may take many Luddite Brits a
>> while to "get with it".
>>
However being british houses and british weather many homes are unsuitable for solar panels.
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>> However being british houses and british weather many homes are unsuitable for solar panels.
>>
True at today's prices. But not for long, eventually even oop-North.
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John H>>Soon, these will be "de rigueur", same as double-glazing and central-heating are now.
And double glazing reduces the value of some properties. PV cells are far uglier and will doubtless make a bigger impact to values.
DG also has a horribly limited life (given its relative cost and alleged cost-savings). Too many "energy saving" schemes are there to put money into the pockets of the promoter, not the consumer.
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>> And double glazing reduces the value of some properties. PV cells are far uglier and
>> will doubtless make a bigger impact to values.
>>
you said it, "some".
>> DG also has a horribly limited life (given its relative cost and alleged cost-savings). Too
>> many "energy saving" schemes are there to put money into the pockets of the promoter,
>> not the consumer.
>>
I have secondary DG that I installed. Works perfectly fine. Apart from energy saving aspect of it, it has a most welcome benefit of making my home very comfortable to live in.
Protest or argue against it as much as you like, call it uneconomic or ugly, but the solar PV juggernaut is now unstoppable.
Last edited by: John H on Fri 6 Jul 12 at 11:22
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>
>> Protest or argue against it as much as you like, call it uneconomic or ugly,
>> but the solar PV juggernaut is now unstoppable.
Round here its not even started, and the cut in FIT has more or less slammed on the brakes,
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>> Round here its not even started, and the cut in FIT has more or less
>> slammed on the brakes,
>>
The future is "Grid Parity", and it is coming to houses near you much earlier than you might imagine.
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What percentage of the UK's annual energy requirement could be provided by trapping every kWh of sunshine that lands on our country?
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>> Do people who buy homes say to the vendor : I don't want to buy
>> your house because it has kitchens/bathrooms/central-heating/windows/doors/bricks (or whatever) that I don't like and you will
>> have to reduce the price because I don't like your taste (or whatever), and in
>> any case they will need repairing/maintenance/replacement in x years time?
Yes
>> If they did that to me, I would say don't bother even looking at my
>> house, go find someone else to amuse with your attitude.
In that case, be prepared for it to be on the market a long time.
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If we continue to get the weather currently on offer I may put little water turbines in my gutter drain pipes to generate power. :)
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>> >> If they did that to me, I would say don't bother even looking at
>> my
>> >> house, go find someone else to amuse with your attitude.
>>
>> In that case, be prepared for it to be on the market a long time.
>>
>>
Only if Luddites are the buyers.
My research suggests that existing FiT solar houses are already proving to very desirable on the market, are selling well, and command a premium over the installation cost.
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you research is wrong.
Location Location Location.
Thats all that matters.
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>>
>> My research suggests that existing FiT solar houses are already proving to very desirable on
>> the market, are selling well, and command a premium over the installation cost.
>>
>>
www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/mortgageshome/article-2130985/RICS-warns-house-hunters-buying-homes-free-solar-panels-fitted.html
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How are they attached? What disturbance to the tiles takes place?
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Tile slid up. Bracket screwed to truss. Tile slid back down over bracket. Brackets hold horizontal rails which support panels.
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where does the power feed come into the house? and where are the inverters?
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My panels are on my garage roof. Inverter and associated gubbins are screwed to the inside of the garage wall. Juice goes out of the garage via the FIT meter into the live feed that existed previously into the garage. Its quite simple really.
If I'm making electric I get paid. If I use it I still get paid and am not paying for electric from the grid. If I don't use it it goes off into the grid for which I get paid a notional extra 3p per Kwh for 50% of production because there is no two way meter. If I'm not producing I'm using electric from the grid.
Bonus is that I have a non digital meter which actually goes backwards when I'm producing surplus and no one seems in any rush to change it. :)
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>> Bonus is that I have a non digital meter which actually goes backwards when I'm
>> producing surplus and no one seems in any rush to change it. :)
>>
Yes, and that bonus is likely to continue for some time yet, but is not taken in to account in any calculations of savings.
I only wish my roof had been suitable for an installation 12 months ago when I seriously looked in to doing it. However, with costs coming down so rapidly, it may still be worth my while to do so in a few years time even without any subsidy.
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I would want to negotiate a discount if solar panels were at the front of any property that I was interested in buying, although I might not be bothered if they were at the rear. As for having them installed myself; well, the amortisation period is just too long, and I would anticipate some form of future taxation on gains.
Not a very exiting investment in my humble opinion.
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Well I must admit to a warm glow WHEN the sun is shinning and the FIT meter is cranking upwards :)
A nicer feeling than pulling out my Bradford and Bingley share certificates :(
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>>A nicer feeling than pulling out my Bradford and Bingley share certificates :(
I'm sure we'll all be compensated in due course.
:)
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>> If I'm making electric I get paid. If I use it I still get paid
>> and am not paying for electric from the grid. If I don't use it it
>> goes off into the grid for which I get paid a notional extra 3p per
>> Kwh for 50% of production because there is no two way meter. If I'm not
>> producing I'm using electric from the grid.
>> Bonus is that I have a non digital meter which actually goes backwards when I'm
>> producing surplus and no one seems in any rush to change it. :)
So you're getting paid three times then!! Just wait until your meter actually goes backwards over a period so you receive a negative bill.
I do wonder how many bright sparks have fixed up electricity produced by the national grid to go through their FIT meter...
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>>Bonus is that I have a non digital meter which actually goes backwards when I'm producing surplus and no one seems in any rush to change it. :)
Fullchat, your installer should have told you to inform your energy provider about this. It is not right - you are getting paid export tariff at 50% of production AND seeing that export reduce your measured usage. The energy companies are within their rights to bill you for the difference if they find out, although if you inform them in reasonable time frame after installation they tend not to, and will fit a new digital meter free of charge.
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A few thoughts from an installers perspective.
If you have £5000-£9000 to invest, solar is a good option provided you are happy that the money is no longer available to draw upon.
Any money earning less than inflation is losing worth. The feed in tariff is indexed linked and tax free for (until 1st August) 25 years. Your investment is guaranteed to still be worth something in real terms.
You will save anywhere from £100-£250 a year on your electricity bills at todays costs. Electricity prices will only go one way-up - and solar electricity will remain free.
You will get £500-£1000 a year in feed in tariff payments. Once the system is paid for (say 8 years), you will continue to get this (remember tax free and RPI'd). Thats £8500 - £17000 profit in todays money.
It is a long term investment, and should be viewed as such.
Panels are guaranteed for performance for 25 years, most for 10 years for everything else. There is very little to actually go wrong with a panel - just look at space probes launched in the 1970's powered by them that are still going today.
The only likely additional costs are cleaning - maybe twice a year at around £30 from a good window cleaner, and replacing the Inverter once within the 25 year period (at a cost of probably £500 by that time).
However, people who are buying at the moment purely on price ARE likely to have more problems because the electrical and structural elements of an installation will be skimped on.
Go into solar pv with your eyes open and your wits about you and you could do well. I have a long list of customers delighted at what they are already achieving - without exception considerably above the estimates we gave them in terms of production and payments.
And remember, every installation is reducing CO2 and reliance on other generation methods. Once storage technology improves many houses could be pretty much self sufficient using todays systems with minor additional electrical works.
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Well let's take your figure over a 8 year period - the time on average that people live in a house.
£9000 up front cost
Cleaning costs 16 x £30 = £480
Total Cost £9,480
set against
8 x £250 saving on electricity = £2000
8 x £1000 feed in tarriff payments = £8,000
Total income £10,000
Profit £520
Put that £9000 in an ISA at 3% it will be worth £11,400
Unless you are sure you won't be moving the numbers just don't add up.
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What you don't allow for in the solar figures is electricity price increases and fit increases at RPI for each of those 8 years.
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>> And remember, every installation is reducing CO2 ............
That's not the full story. CO2 will be produced iin the course of the manufacture and distribution of solar panels.
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Embedded CO2 for solar is 'repayed' in 2 years
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>>Once storage
>> technology improves many houses could be pretty much self sufficient using todays systems with minor
>> additional electrical works.
Thats an unknown! The auto industry has been waiting for this for 30 years
Last edited by: Zero on Fri 6 Jul 12 at 17:33
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Just in case my question has got lost above:
What percentage of the UK's annual energy requirement could be provided by trapping every kWh of sunshine that lands on our country in a solar panel?
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Deleted.
Last edited by: Crankcase on Fri 6 Jul 12 at 15:34
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>> Just in case my question has got lost above:
>>
>> What percentage of the UK's annual energy requirement could be provided by trapping every kWh
>> of sunshine that lands on our country in a solar panel?
>>
Some answers here - check the references for accuracy of data:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_power_in_the_United_Kingdom
www.inference.phy.cam.ac.uk/withouthotair/c6/page_38.shtml
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Ah. I did some calculations myself this morning. I think the chappie from the Cavendish is a bit generous in his estimation as to the average roof area per capita in the UK (48 sq m!). 25% of the UK population lives in London. I'd guess we Londoners have 300 sq ft of floorspace each, on average. And we live in a building with four floors. So we have 7.5 sq m of roof area each. The other thing everybody forgets is that most of the energy we use in the UK is not electricity through the meter at home. Oil, gas and industry dwarf this.
My calculations as follows:
UK annual energy requirement is approx. 212 million tonnes of oil equivalent. 11.6TWh/million tonnes, so 2,500 TWh p.a. i.e. 2.5 E15 Wh.
www.decc.gov.uk/en/content/cms/statistics/publications/ecuk/ecuk.aspx
Annual insolation of the UK is approx. 1 MWh per sq meter p.a. 1 E 6 Wh
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_power_in_the_United_Kingdom
Area of the UK approx. 240,000 sq km (several sources agree) 2.4 E 11 sq metres.
www.funtrivia.com/askft/Question91855.html
So annual energy landing on the entire UK, annually is 2.4 E 17 Wh.
Therefore if we could capture all the solar energy landing on the UK we would have 100 times our annual requirements for energy. BUT solar panels are only about 20% efficient. And rather a lot of the energy used in the UK in those million tonnes of oil equivalent is used as oil/gas/petrol, and the delivery of electricity to motor vehicles etc. can give rise to as much as an additional 80% loss. So that reduces us to somewhere between 4 and (hey, let’s be ambitious) 20 times our UK annual requirement.
But rather a lot of the UK is somewhat inhospitable for solar panels. And quite a lot is devoted to agriculture. And gardens. And living/playing in. Imagine the outcry if we never got to see sunshine again in the UK.
A recent BBC programme tells us that 1.5% of the UK is concreted over. www.twitmunin.com/en/986889/the-great-myth-of-urban-britain/
So if we could put solar panels on all of that then we’d be down to providing somewhere between 4% and 20% of our UK energy requirement.
But really rather a lot of that is patios, streets, roads, motorways, leaving us with available roofing (excluding roof terraces) of maybe, what do you think? 1% perhaps? Is that too low? 10% is surely far too ambitious (we’re not going to travel in the dark on our roads, are we, otherwise we’re going to have to have our car lights on all the time). So let’s be ambitious and say 5% - but I bet it wouldn’t be that high…
That means that if we’re really lucky/effective then we can provide somewhere between 0.2 and 1% of our annual energy needs with solar energy. Realistically we’ll be lucky if we manage one tenth of that as not all roofs are accessible/suitable/owned by somebody who will let it happen/not listed etc. etc. Anybody tells you otherwise, and they’re having you on. It doesn’t seem worth getting hung up over two-ten-thousandths of our energy requirement, does it? And certainly not to faff with providing people with subsidies, by making our electricity more expensive and by destroying attractive buildings.
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I can see if you stay in the home for long enough that there should be a return. But if you move and the panel prices drops over time, what cost £10k to install might be considerably less when you sell. So you cannot expect to increase the sale value to cover the panel install costs. And the prices will fall.
... and some might not want the panels either.
Presumably if you needed a new roof in the timeframe too the panels need removing and then replacing by someone. A roof does not last forever. Fullchat had the right idea and installed it on the garage roof.
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>>Fullchat had the right idea and installed it on the garage roof.
Disagree strongly. A house roof should have a life of 100-200 years (slate & nails, provided you haven't used Spanish slate, in which case more like 25, or tiles).
A garage roof (flat) is lucky to manage 25.
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At least one new build( ad there are at least dozn biggies) in the village has standalone array at ground level - common sense
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Keep 'em inside and leave the lights on...Must work that eh?
:-)
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"has standalone array at ground level"
No need for solar panels - plant some vegetables. They all come with self renewing solar arrays that will convert basic chemicals into food at minimal cost. Packet of seeds costs £1.80 Payback period around 6 months. :-)
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Proper pitched and tiled garage roof.
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I can sense more than a hint of sour grapes in many of the replies.
>> I can see if you stay in the home for long enough that there should
>> be a return. But if you move and the panel prices drops over time, what
>> cost £10k to install might be considerably less when you sell. So you cannot expect
>> to increase the sale value to cover the panel install costs. And the prices will
>> fall.
>>
When selling, the value is in the income stream, not how much the panels cost to install.
>> ... and some might not want the panels either.
>>
Don't buy the house then.
>> Presumably if you needed a new roof in the timeframe too the panels need removing
>> and then replacing by someone. A roof does not last forever. Fullchat had the right
>> idea and installed it on the garage roof.
>>
As you say yourself, by the time the roof needs replacing the PV panels will be dirt cheap to replace, so there is no problem - is there? The income stream then can continue!
You can all be as negative as you like, but there is no stopping this bandwagon.
Remember that there were (and still are) gullible people prepared to install Solar Water heating even though it was a complete loss making "improvement".
Based on outdated expensive installation costs, not taking account of future energy price rises, and future cost reductions:
www.greenenergynet.com/businesses/articles/solar-pv-still-worth-considering
www.which.co.uk/energy/creating-an-energy-saving-home/guides/how-to-buy-solar-panels/is-solar-pv-a-good-investment/
p.s. latest estimates suggest:
A 3 kilowatt (kw) solar PV panel system costs between £5,500 and £6,500
I am off to RIAT2012 until Monday, so no more updates.
Just about to arrive www.airtattoo.com/airshow/Newsroom/news/stealth-set-to-steal-show-at-air-tattoo
Last edited by: John H on Fri 6 Jul 12 at 17:29
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There is a discussion on another forum that money-wise people would pay a premium for a house with owned panels, recognising the potential income that they will bring. Up to £40k extra compared to non-equipped houses, depending how long the FiT still has to run.
Just some real-life figures - my system has generated me approx £650 in FiT alone (i.e. without factoring in the reduction in grid usage and the 3p generation payment) since 4 Jan (with March being the best month!) so I'm expecting to hit over £1k this year. The system was bought in November for £10.5k, so I should have my money back in about 10 years, slightly longer than I was led to believe, but then the weather hasn't been that good in April/May/June, and I haven't factored inflation in. The same system can now be had considerably cheaper but the payments are also a lot less.
And an addendum for those with panels - there are a number of projects underway which look at you generation v your usage in real time, and when generation exceeds usage diverts the excess to other house usage, the most common being an immersion heater. Obviously there is a cost to these systems but I'm keeping an eye out because I think this would be a good way to go.
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>>Up to £40k extra compared to non-equipped houses
I'll be asking Pete for a quote if we ever consider moving again.
:)
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>>I can sense more than a hint of sour grapes in many of the replies.
Definitely from me. I regard the fitting of equipment giving rise to a FIT payment as being as bad as benefit scrounging. In fact it is worse. Because FIT is paid by the energy companies, i.e. by their customers, so it is the poor subsidising the middle class with their energy bills.
I do not believe it makes sense from a moral or scientific point of view.
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...I regard the fitting of equipment giving rise to a FIT payment as being as bad as benefit scrounging...
My middle brother had panels fitted a few years ago, and just to annoy Mapmaker a bit more, I believe he got a grant for some of the cost.
Last I heard he was clicking about £1,250 a year and all but free electric.
Gas bill's down, too, because he now hardly uses it for water heating or cooking.
Financially for him it's win all the way.
Last edited by: Iffy on Fri 6 Jul 12 at 19:26
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Maybe it's a middle class middle finger to the benefit's culture !
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Believe it or not, brother is something of a tree hugger.
Part of his motivation for fitting panels was to be kinder to the environment, although I don't imagine he would have done it had the figures not been in his favour.
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>> Maybe it's a middle class middle finger to the benefits culture!
Maybe, but those whom it hits hardest are those with low incomes who are not on benefits - with somebody else to pay the bills. And if members of the middle classes enjoy ripping *them* off then the middle classes should be ashamed of themselves.
There's no such thing as free money, I'm afraid. And there's absolutely no reason why those who have 10k to spend should be given more from those who don't. Crazy. Only a bunch of socialists could have thought that one up.
Last edited by: Mapmaker on Fri 6 Jul 12 at 21:45
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I very nearly went for it here - funnily enough, independently of me the guy who bought my place did....he seems happy enough with his return.
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Its because of all these semi-flash middle classes with all these panels soaking up other folks free sunshine, that the rest of us are having nowt but rain an floods! :0)
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That is like a comment worthy of a latter day Python - brilliant !
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Apparently we are due of years of no-sun rain.
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-18744189
Can you sell solar panels on E-Bay?
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You wil note, the posts are about a minute apart.
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For me the decision was about looking after number one for a change. After a lifetime of permanent employment, much of it with the same employer, I found myself unexpectedly out of work. it took me 5 months to land 7 months work, then another 5 months off until this May when I landed another piece of work for which I don't know the likely duration.
My pension pots are declining quite rapidly - one went down by over 20% last year). So with a lump sum to invest, I thought rather than stick it into some other grubby moneymakers hands I thought I'd use the money to my advantage for once.
Sorry if that offends...
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The owners of our local grade II listed Hall had the right idea. The had theirs installed on a stand in a remote part of their estate. The roof of their house remains unsullied and the panels will only be seen by themselves.
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>> on a stand in a remote part
>>
I have considered that, having the space. The panels could be aligned at the optimum angle and direction, maintenance and cleaning would be easy. There would be the additional cost of running the cable of course.
Any buyer would jump at the income potential, or the panels could simply be removed.
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It's just occurred to me here as well given the huge chunk of "meadow"
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But might they be targeted by vandals?
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Not here they could be located near the property but far enough from anywhere with direct access..
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the dogs would pee up them
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Ha Ha....The other option I've considered here is a thermal bore thing....got the land !
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>> Ha Ha....The other option I've considered here...
There really isn't much to do where you are is there?
:-)
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So bad I ended up going to Congleton last weekend - now that is boring !
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Using meadows is all very well... but the point of using the roof is that it's using up wasted space!
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Think he's considering ground source heat pump.
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>> Think he's considering ground source heat pump.
Think he's considering Solar Panels on top of his ground source heat pump. Wind turbine as well no doubt.
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Does anyone know if there are any grants available for the siting of surface to air missiles on ones roof?
:}
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givin em away free in london!
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Solar Panels. - John H
