My mother was born out of wedlock and there was no father named on her birth certificate. I only found out after her death that she was illegitimate as a result of a chance meeting between my brother and a distant relative of my mother. My parents never discussed my mother's parentage because of the shame of illegitimacy in that era, so I don't who her father was. (I could be related to the lord of the manor or the village idiot!)
Whatever happened to the concept of illegitimacy?
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Certainly no shame in it these days.....
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>> Whatever happened to the concept of illegitimacy?
Whatever else can be said about the 'moral decline' of the 20th/21st century, it's fair to say that all forms of bigotry have become marginalised, whether it is racism, sexism, homophobia, or classism.
This (illegitimacy) is simply one more of those things that were used in the past to label someone who had no control over that aspect of their life/personality.
We live in more of a meritocracy now than in the past.
Last edited by: Lygonos on Thu 21 Jun 12 at 07:53
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>> Certainly no shame in it these days.....
If its good enough for the royal family and nobility it's good enough for me.
I bet all of us, If we go back far enough, have some illigitimacy in the blood line
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>> the village idiot
>>
In our more enlightened less discriminatory society we say " someone in the community who suffers from mental health problems".
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or 'learning difficulties'
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>> Tax inspector......
>>
I've heard of tax inspectors being called b******s ~ i.e. people of illegitimate birth.
Last edited by: L'escargot on Thu 21 Jun 12 at 09:38
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One difference these days is that in the vast majority of cases the father is known because the mother wants his name on the birth cert so she can chase him for maintainance.
The stigma has to some degree passed more to the fathers as being a single mother is a legitimate choice rather than an accident or unhappy result.
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In the same way, double-barrelled names are now commonplace, as children have the surnames of both parents. Unlike when I was a child, when teachers would often strike out the first part of my surname. One matron going as far as removing name tapes on clothes!
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>> I could be related to the lord of the manor or the village idiot!
Or Brian from The Magic Roundabout ;)
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>> Whatever happened to the concept of illegitimacy?
>>
Gone, fortunately. Unless you think it's a good thing? Even the word "wedlock" sounds repulsive.
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>> >> Whatever happened to the concept of illegitimacy?
>> >>
>>
>> Gone, fortunately. Unless you think it's a good thing? Even the word "wedlock" sounds repulsive.
>>
That's a vociferous reply. I wonder why.
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>> That's a vociferous reply. I wonder why.
>
Simply because FF is a member of the younger generation?
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>> >> That's a vociferous reply. I wonder why.
>> >
>>
>> Simply because FF is a member of the younger generation?
>>
They're a boy band, aren't they?
I'm just pleased that I'm not so sensitive as to let mere words repulse me.
:-D
Last edited by: L'escargot on Thu 21 Jun 12 at 11:30
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>> Not even SALT? :-)
>>
I love the word. It's like sea water off a snail's back!
:-D
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>> >> >> That's a vociferous reply. I wonder why.
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >> Simply because FF is a member of the younger generation?
>> >>
>>
>> I'm just pleased that I'm not so sensitive as to let mere words repulse me.
>> :-D
>>
It's not the word, per se, it's the implication of control and possession that has nothing to do with marriage.
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>> It's not the word, per se, it's the implication of control and possession that has
>> nothing to do with marriage.
>>
He doth protest too much, methinks.
:-D
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>> >> ..... FF is a member of the younger generation?
>>
tinyurl.com/7tfhtp4
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>>That's a vociferous reply. I wonder why<<
I thought the same actually - even though I don't know what vociferous means :)
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Can we differentiate between 'b******' and 'b****** born' please?
I understand that if the parents subsequently wed, any child previously born out of wedlock is no longer a 'b******', but a 'b****** born'.
Yours sincerely etc.
;>)
edit
How do I get round the swear filter to describe different grades of file?
Last edited by: bathtub tom on Thu 21 Jun 12 at 11:01
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>> How do I get round the swear filter to describe different grades of file?
>>
That will probably be lost on the non-(mechanical)engineers. For their edification it's all about files in here. tinyurl.com/ddqanx
Last edited by: L'escargot on Thu 21 Jun 12 at 11:09
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'Mrs B' and I are not legally married to each. Neither of us believe in a God before whom we need to affirm our relationship. Neither do we need it recognised by the state. Our joint asetts and pensions are arranged in ways that recognise our status.
Technically Miss B (b1992) and The Lad (b1994) are therefore illegitimate. NEVER been a serious issue. ISTR getting a dissaproving look from the prop of a Hebridean Guest House when Miss B was a babe in arms and Mrs McOwner noticed the cheque was drawn on a/c of Mr SMB and Ms EC.
I never darkened her doors again.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Thu 21 Jun 12 at 11:37
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>> 'Mrs B' and I are not legally married to each.
My goodness me. It's all coming out!
:-D
Last edited by: L'escargot on Thu 21 Jun 12 at 11:42
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Generational thing. Me old mum, in her eighties, is firmly of the belief that marriage is the only way, and it's a commitment, and once you're together you stay together, and there's lashings of duty involved, and moral rectitude, etc and so forth.
My ten nephews and nieces, all under 35, are generally of the opinion that none of that matters much, and there are various children "out of wedlock" and divorces, living with partners, having kids, moving to the next partner and so forth.
The above upsets mother dear deeply, although never so much as to seriously taint her relationships with her grandchildren or great grandchildren, fortunately.
However, whether her generation were any happier or not, or society was somehow "better" in her day, (which seems to be the point) is debatable.
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B - Serious questions, not frivolous:
>> Technically Miss B (b1992) and The Lad (b1994) are therefore illegitimate. NEVER been a serious issue. >>
1. has it been "non-serious" mild issue?
2. How do Miss B and The Lad feel about it?
3. Do their friends know, and if so, do they get "teased" by the friends?
>> on a/c of Mr SMB and Ms EC.
>>
4. Does your name appear on the birth certificate as the father?
5. What surname have the children been given?
6. (supplementary to 3) If they have double-barrelled surnames, and if they follow your example and have children with partners who also come from similar "illegitimate" background, will the grandchilren have quadruple-barreled surnames?
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@John H,
1. Nothing serious enough that I can recall at this distance - but see 4.
2. Neither is bothered. They had a secure childhood in a loving home with two parents and have plenty of friends in same position.
3. See 2. It's not a secret but neither do we broadcast it. Other than absence of a wedding ring and fact that Mrs B is known personally and professionally as Ms C there is nothing to distinguish us from a married couple.
4. Naturally. Now I think about it the Registrar for Ms B gave us a firm steer on fact that if we married within a year we could re-register covering up the 'illegitimacy'. We both thought she was overtly disapproving. If we'd not been fully occupied with a first born at the time we'd have complained.
5. They have my surname but also have my partner's as a middle given name. They've been told they can use either or double-barrel them. They just use mine. Some friends assume we're all four double-barrelled and refer to us as 'the C-Bs'
6 Their call and I hope both wait a few years but I don't see any trend to quad-barrels in wider society.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Thu 21 Jun 12 at 12:51
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Further to my replies to John H a colleague, let's call her A, fell pregnant after a relationship that really shouldn't have happened.
She was in a position to bring the sprog up alone and kept it. Didn't want to disclose the father's name and told the registrar who responded by asking if she knew who the father was.
A's a feisty lady and did complain!!
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>> Didn't
>> want to disclose the father's name and told the registrar who responded by asking if
>> she knew who the father was.
>>
Wonder what happened when Ed Miliband's missus first registered her child without naming the father.
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Brompton:
re. "serious" issues - Some parts of the world are still way behind in accepting that couples can be together for years, have children, and yet stay unmarried. Similarly, many such countries assume that you have to have a religion. These attitudes become obvious when faced with some of the questions that are asked in visa application forms (India, Russia and Saudi Arabia come to mind immediately).
Hypothetical question: have you thought what would happen if you now decide that marriage would be a good idea after all - how would Ms C react to the proposal?
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John,
We would like to visit the US at some time funds permitting. We did wonder whether, away from the more cosmopolitan seabord states, we might meet some resistance. America is said by many to be far more foreign than france or germany.
My travel horizons for now are limited to Western Europe - we holiday in France mostly. My boss who until very recently was in same position has been to Russia both on departmental business and on holiday without a problem.
Marriage is not on our agenda so the question does not arise! Only circ might be if we came into sufficient funds for IHT to be an issue.
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>> John,
>>
>> We would like to visit the US at some time funds permitting. We did wonder
>> whether, away from the more cosmopolitan seabord states, we might meet some resistance. America is
>> said by many to be far more foreign than france or germany.
Wont be a problem. If you are in the deep south just tell them your wife is your sister
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>>Wont be a problem. If you are in the deep south just tell them your wife is your sister
She's only there to carry your banjo.
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>> Wont be a problem. If you are in the deep south just tell them your
>> wife is your sister
>>
Or daughter.
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>> We would like to visit the US at some time funds permitting.
>>
It is one of the easier and cheaper DIY holiday destinations to be found in the world.
Accommodation is cheap, and can be booked as you go along at a considerable discount to published rates (especially when not coinciding with US public holidays); food, car hire and gas are cheap; and you can get low air-fares during off-peak seasons. Many shops and restaurants will give discounts to over-50s ("seniors" discount). Your combined duty free allowance of £600+ will enable you to buy stuff worth around £900, assuming you were planning to buy that stuff in the UK.
So there, Ms C can now be persuaded that the US trip is affordable. ;-)
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My ole mum was born out of wedlock to two doctors in a sowf lunden horsespittal then given away to a roofer and his wife down the ole kent rd.
Recently, a rellie in Florida has done his family tree via ancestry.co and dug up all manner of stuff on my family.
Seems she was born a Gray but took on the roofers name of Beverton, even got ancestors downunder,
all very interesting - if carried out properly.
www.ancestry.co.uk/home/lo/index?version=a
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>> My ole mum was born out of wedlock to two doctors in a sowf lunden horsespittal >>
Dog - thought you might like to know that I tend to avoid reading your posts as I don't find them user-friendly nor funny.
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How do you know if you don't read them?
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>> How do you know if you don't read them?
>>
"tend to avoid"
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Dog - thought you might like to know I enjoy reading your posts as you have a similar sense of the world to me.
Lucky we're all different, isn't it.
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I like most folk with a sense of humour. And Dog has one.
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My mum's side of the family were strongly Catholic - her mother coming from a catholic family and her father was from a family of Irish catholics.
When my gran , (who was the youngest of nine children) died, my aunt was dealing with all the financial affairs and discovered that my gran was actually the only legitimate child out of the family, the other 8 being born out of wedlock. The only wedding certificate they found was dated between the births of child no 8 & 9.
On further searching it would appear that everyone assumed they had married before all the kids came along. It may well have been that they eloped and came back and told everyone they were married but had just hid round the corner!
That brought a huge talking point to this Catholic family I can assure you!!
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Nicoles Grandfather was a Welsh Miner, Strictly Chapel. One day he went to work, and never came home again. Never heard of again till the entire illegitimate branch of the family came over from Australia looking for their roots.
Turns out he didn't go t'pit that day, Went to Australia instead, ended up working in the Broken Hill mines, and started a whole new branch of the family. Never divorced his Welsh Wife!
Last edited by: Zero on Thu 21 Jun 12 at 13:38
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>> I like most folk with a sense of humour. And Dog has one.
Barking mad ! :-)
Ted
>>
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Fido eh! Probably one of the most darn to urf people on 'ere. Keep barking me ol' mate, and stay orf the sofa.
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>> Dog - thought you might like to know I enjoy reading your posts
+1
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I think most widows would approve of the concept if they suddenly discovered the existence of their late husband's illegitimate family, with a claim on her inheritance.
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>> >> Dog - thought you might like to know I enjoy reading your posts
>>
>> +1
>>
+ 2
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>> +3
>>
hehe. Takes all kinds to make the world go round.
Last edited by: John H on Thu 21 Jun 12 at 13:33
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I wont be losing any sleep over it, me ole son.
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>> I wont be losing any sleep over it, me ole son.
You shouldn't Perro. But personal attacks from the sidelines can be irksome to a sensitive person, and John H has form (unless the handle is now being used by someone else). If it was he, for a week or two in the early days of this site he quite often replied to posts of mine with accusations that I suffered from 'grandiosity', a pathology characterized by delusional, self-promoting fantasies. The subtext I imagine was that he thought I was inventing all my (admittedly profuse) reminiscences from a longish, somewhat chaotic life.
In the end, hurt by such determined sourness, I scolded him for always saying the same thing and failing to amuse the rest of us, which I at least was trying to do. He stopped doing it after that. I suppose he still doesn't believe a word I say, but that's everyone's privilege.
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>>and John H has form<<
Oh well, at least John H and I have something in common then.
:)
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But i wouldn't lay money on either of you.
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>> else). If it was he, for a week or two in the early days of
>> this site he quite often replied to posts of mine with accusations that I suffered
>> from 'grandiosity', a pathology characterized by delusional, self-promoting fantasies. The
>>
>> hurt by such determined sourness, >>
It must have hurt deeply, or hit the bullseye of a particularly sensitive soul, to have stuck in your memory to this day. ;-)
Chillax.
p.s. I don't get what's so funny about "sowf lunden horsespittal".
Last edited by: John H on Thu 21 Jun 12 at 17:53
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>> I don't get what's so funny about "sowf lunden horsespittal".
It doesn't have to be 'funny'. It's just his way, a mannerism. You don't have to admire it but why pick on it?
I wasn't that hurt JH because you were so wide of the mark. But your repeated efforts to annoy succeeded in the end.
I am sure you have more genial talents which you could show us if you wished. Go on, be a devil.
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I am in the same situation as Bromptonaut.
I often refer to my partner as "Mrs B" on here, but she is in fact Ms W. We have 5 children, and us not being married has never been an issue, in fact, most people just assume we are.
Our eldest is almost 10 and its never been an issue for him. They are all aware that we are not married in the conventional sense, but they also have friends in similar situations, all in stable family homes.
IMO I see no reason to get married, other than the fact that my final salary pension will only recognize my partner if we are married
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>> IMO I see no reason to get married, other than the fact that my final
>> salary pension will only recognize my partner if we are married
Think you'll find thats illegal, and she will be entitled to your pension rights as if she were married. Talk to the Pension Administrator. And I hope you have a good will written.
Last edited by: Zero on Thu 21 Jun 12 at 19:01
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Indeed - just don't wait to tell them after you die ;-)
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Will in place.
I will contact the administrator and clarify the position. I already have an agreement in place with them whereby they have agreed to pay any death in service direct to my partner
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>> Think you'll find thats illegal, and she will be entitled to your pension rights as
>> if she were married. Talk to the Pension Administrator. And I hope you have a
>> good will written.
How on earth would she prove such a claim other than for the orphans?
For Civil Servants reforms in 2002/3 allowed us to opt for a premium scheme that paid 'widows' benefits to a nominated partner albeit at a price of doubled contributions. No nomination = no benefit. In my office two of us took the option. The other guy was gay and wanted a benefit for his partner.
Subsequent legislation for civil partnerships meant he wasted his money and they've since 'divorced'. Incidentally that seems considerably easier than revoking a marriage.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Thu 21 Jun 12 at 23:23
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You can have a nominated beneficiary and or dependent(s). A pension scheme can have a standard provision for a "spouse". Mine did. A spouse does not have to be a legally married wife.
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My position as a recipient of a teacher's pension since January 2000 is (as I understand it and confirmed by phone call to Teachers' Pensions) that my death cannot benefit anyone but a widow. That is, my partner must be married to me in order for her to benefit.
Teachers' pension arrangements are very complex when it comes to benefits for surviving partners. Here are some extracts from the FAQs on the Teachers' Pensions website:
"I have already retired and I am living with my partner. Do the surviving partner benefits cover us?
Yes. Pensioners can nominate a partner but only service from 1 January 2007 counts for benefit." [In my case, this is irrelevant.]
"If I remarry, enter into a civil partnership or nominate a partner after I retire, will a pension be paid to my dependants after I die?
If you left pensionable employment before 1.1.07 you can't nominate a partner unless you return to pensionable teaching employment." [Again, no help to me.]
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Illegitimate children - R.P.
