Non-motoring > Flying is for the birds	Miscellaneous
Thread Author: Zero	Replies: 58

Sat 16 Jun 12 13:56   Flying is for the birds - Zero

Currently staring through the windows of the Jersey departure lounge at a 1 wheel turbo prop passenger plane that has no port propellor left and is blocking the only runway on the island. Hard landing = collapsed port undercarriage. Been there since 8 am. Check in on time they said tho clearly no planes are going anywhere soon in or out. Subsequently the airport resembles a refugee camp and there has been a Mutiny when they graciously allowed a 3.50 meal voucher. Much derision and cat calls. Reply to this message | Report message

Sat 16 Jun 12 14:03   Flying is for the birds - Dog

If y'all can beat my 18 hour delay at Tenerife South once upon a time, I'll buy you a bear beer. Reply to this message | Report message

Sat 16 Jun 12 14:09   Flying is for the birds - Bromptonaut

Blue Island ATR - report here. Seems a bit confused about whether it was a hard landing, sticky gear or a taxy problem. www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-jersey-18469947 Reply to this message | Report message

Sat 16 Jun 12 14:54   Flying is for the birds - Zero

Well, it's had a crane holding it up for the last two hours, but now appears to be standing on It's own two feet (albeit with a severe list) and now has a tug attached to it. Reply to this message | Report message

Sat 16 Jun 12 15:03   Flying is for the birds - R.P.

"At the moment all flights have been suspended and the runway closed, although the airport remains open That's called putting a spin on it ! Reply to this message | Report message

Sat 16 Jun 12 15:24   Flying is for the birds - Dulwich Estate

"If y'all can beat my 18 hour delay at Tenerife South once upon a time, I'll buy you a bear beer." 36 hours at Gatwick airport in 1977 - going to Greece by Laker Airways. Turned out it was a chartered Carribean airways Boeing 707 with bald tyres. Reply to this message | Report message

Sat 16 Jun 12 15:29   Flying is for the birds - Zero

Huge cheer, crippled bird is inching off the runway, two tugs towing and what seems to be some kind of wheeled dolly under the fuselage Reply to this message | Report message

Sat 16 Jun 12 16:38   Flying is for the birds - Dog

>>36 hours at Gatwick airport in 1977<< I suppose I was lucky really because I was on my own with a cheapo one-way ticket to Gatwick and I sort-of mingled with the crowd and the crowd ended up here for the night: plus.google.com/102865323337529756820/about?gl=uk&hl=en What a result! - I even had my own room :) Reply to this message | Report message

Sat 16 Jun 12 17:10   Flying is for the birds - sooty123

>> "If y'all can beat my 18 hour delay at Tenerife South once upon a time, >> I'll buy you a bear beer." >> >> 36 hours at Gatwick airport in 1977 - going to Greece by Laker Airways. Turned >> out it was a chartered Carribean airways Boeing 707 with bald tyres. >> Sadly I've had a few 24 hours + delays, 28 hours stuck waiting to fly out to the ME about 2006 was one that sticks in my mind. To cut a long story short messed about to Olympic standards from start to finish, got double meals on the two meals we had onboard, every cloud and all that... Reply to this message | Report message

Sat 16 Jun 12 15:35   Flying is for the birds - Runfer D'Hills

Air travel is pants now though anyway. I have to make a journey by air at least every other week and have done for decades. At no time have I ever attempted to take illegal control of an aircraft or assaulted anyone on one or even slightly considered bringing anything even mildly explosive with me but despite that they still insist on treating me as a prime suspect of all or some of the above every time I turn up to get on one.I did once put too large a bottle of shampoo in my hand luggage so maybe that's why I'm a marked man. You'd think one could build up an amount of presumed innocence in time. After all, any professional terrorist could almost certainly circumnavigate the security systems anyway if they really wanted to. Cynically, I see all the palaver at airports as an excercise in having to be seen to do something when in fact it is only marginally more useful than doing nothing. Reply to this message | Report message

Sat 16 Jun 12 15:58   Flying is for the birds - Armel Coussine

>> an excercise in having to be seen to do something when in fact it is only marginally more useful than doing nothing. Not so sure really. Keeping people in queues for a long time gives the people behind the cctv, and those masquerading as passengers themselves, to look out for signs of agitation, tension, anxiety and so on. It may not be as random and hit-or-miss as it looks. I've been pulled and searched two or three times at Dover coming off a cross-channel ferry. They won't tell you why they've pulled you, but I suspect in my case it was my tendency to perspire heavily under any sort of stress, even just travelling, until I became middle-aged and resigned. Cross-channel ferries have plainclothes fuzz and spooks among the passengers. There was a barmy Turk on one train/ferry crossing I made who was trying very hard and at great length to get people to cash a cheque for him. Eventually a pipe-smoking, invisible sort of bloke in a tweed jacket led him off for an interview with the captain. You never saw anyone go so quiet so quickly. I have to be patted down at airports because my pacemaker isn't supposed to go through magnetic resonance metal detectors. Reply to this message | Report message

Sat 16 Jun 12 17:39   Flying is for the birds - Armel Coussine

>> suspect in my case it was my tendency to perspire heavily under any sort of stress, even just travelling, until I became middle-aged Actually on one of those occasions I had exceeded the speed limit all the way from Paris in the beginning of the 1987 hurricane, wind and bucketing tropical rain all the way, literally gallons of water sluicing over the front of the car when passing any of the hundreds of HGVs. My idea of a good time actually, but a bit demanding for all that. So at Dover I wasn't just in a muck sweat myself but driving my wife's farmer cousin's metallic green Mercedes 280 coupé with the farmer himself, a big ugly red-faced fellow with bright red hair, snoozing beside me. You could see Dover customs thinking we were the Dodgy Brothers and they'd got a right one here. They were sniggering ruefully as they let us go. I reckon the hair was probably the clincher. But the farmer complained I had made it worse by showing them my old passport with a lot of visas for menacing African countries in it. Last edited by: Armel Coussine on Sat 16 Jun 12 at 17:42 Reply to this message | Report message

Sat 16 Jun 12 17:46   Flying is for the birds - smokie

Got delayed by about five hours one Sunday afternoon when I was commuting from Heathrow to Edinburgh. Wasn't so bad though, I was in the British Midland Elite club or whatever it was called, so free food and drinks helped pass the time - could barely stand when I came to board. I used to work for P&O Ferries (at the time of The Herald disaster) and was called out to the office in Dover one Sunday afternoon while decorating. Turned up in my painty jeans and scruffy t shirt, fixed the problem fairly quickly but got called back to go to Calais for another problem before I got home. Was searched on the way back, presumably because they don't get too many painters travelling at 3 am with only a briefcase as luggage! Reply to this message | Report message

Sat 16 Jun 12 17:56   Flying is for the birds - Ian (Cape Town)

Used to do lots of work in Nigeria, and also travelled a few times to Brazil on quick in-and-out trips. So as you can imagine, my passport had some interesting stamps, and I was always stopped by customs and given the third-degree. Reply to this message | Report message

Sat 16 Jun 12 15:31   Flying is for the birds - MD

>> There has been a Mutiny when they graciously allowed a 3.50 meal voucher. Much derision and cat calls. >> I can't eat at 10 to 4. Far too early... Reply to this message | Report message

Sat 16 Jun 12 15:36   Flying is for the birds - devonite

71/2 hours and they`re just starting to shift it! - during the war they would have not only repaired the plane, but rebuilt the runway as well! must have been a Health and Safety exercise! Reply to this message | Report message

Sat 16 Jun 12 15:54   Flying is for the birds - Zero

Plane now abandoned in a closed off link taxiway, runway cleaned and checked, first flight movement just taken place. Reply to this message | Report message

Sat 16 Jun 12 17:40   Flying is for the birds - Zero

Estimated departure time is 20:15. That's 6 hours and 35 minutes late. I guess the "beyond carriers control" exclusion kicks in with respect to compensation Reply to this message | Report message

Sat 16 Jun 12 18:08   Flying is for the birds - Focusless

Got delayed for a week in San Francisco when that Icelandic volcano went up a few years ago, although we were lucky enough to be in a hotel rather than an airport. Still pretty stressful though. Reply to this message | Report message

Sat 16 Jun 12 18:42   Flying is for the birds - Old Navy

An aeroplane is only public transport, just go with the flow, self inflicted stress and high blood pressure won't mend a plane or make it fly faster. My Son in law was in the USA on 9/11, he was ten days late getting home. He was happy to get home when he did, many did not. Reply to this message | Report message

Sat 16 Jun 12 21:25   Flying is for the birds - Focusless

>> An aeroplane is only public transport, just go with the flow, self inflicted stress and >> high blood pressure won't mend a plane or make it fly faster. My Son in >> law was in the USA on 9/11, he was ten days late getting home. He >> was happy to get home when he did, many did not. And in the same situation we'd probably have felt the same (I hope he hasn't been adversely affected by the experience). But we weren't - we were just stuck abroad, worrying about: - not being at work (both of us) - whether my stepson was managing to looking after our dog - whether son wasn't missing anything important at school - when we were actually going to get home; the official date we were given was another 3 weeks later IIRC - whether we should camp at the airport to avoid the 3 week delay (we were told not to but we felt we had to take a chance in the end) - how much (if any) of all the extra money we were spending would be refunded etc. Really not as much fun as it sounds :) Reply to this message | Report message

Sat 16 Jun 12 18:36   Flying is for the birds - Armel Coussine

Zero has had a bit of bad luck, soon to be over we hope, but the occasional adventure is inevitable where small airports or shortage of scheduled flights are involved. Getting stuck for two or three days in a place where you were just supposed to change flights can have a positive side though. Once flew from Algiers to Tindouf and back in Algeria. Although there was a biweekly scheduled flight, the airstrip at Tindouf used to be a military one, where the military took precedence. The flight there was in an Air Algérie Boeing 737 and took about two hours. The flight back was in an elderly Ilyushin passenger turboprop plane, flying at lower altitude into a 100mph headwind, and took five or six hours. The lavatory tank overflowed and one had to pee in the handbasin. Very difficult for the one furious woman hack present owing to the curvature of the fuselage. She had a similar problem in a noisy, rattling (but pressurized and heated) Algerian army Hercules on another occasion. Men could slash in the crew's fold-out urinal behind the cockpit, but women had to go behind a curtain at the top of the ramp in the tail. Last edited by: Armel Coussine on Sat 16 Jun 12 at 18:41 Reply to this message | Report message

Sat 16 Jun 12 19:00   Flying is for the birds - Zero

It's actually been pretty interesting , it's not every day you have a grandstand view of a crashed aircraft recovery. Just amused myself by haranguing ( nicely and politely ) the staff about their failure to issue refreshment vouchers ( quickly rectified ) I found out they had to be authorised by the carrier - the fact they did may well constitute admission of liability. So I may have a tickle at claiming statutory delay compo. Got the chance to finish Max Hastings tome about the Korean war, so it's not hours of my life wasted - everything in life is an education. It's stressful for the staff tho, food is drying up, they have all been told they will have to work past midnight to clear backlog. Small place like Jersey is not equipped or sized to cope. Reply to this message | Report message

Sat 16 Jun 12 19:05   Flying is for the birds - Armel Coussine

>> It's stressful for the staff tho, food is drying up, they have all been told they will have to work past midnight to clear backlog. Small place like Jersey is not equipped or sized to cope. Absolutely Zero. People are screaming the place down because they don't like the boxed lunches or there's no cologne beside the slash bucket, and there are people struggling with the situation and having to try to be polite. I always feel sorry for them. Reply to this message | Report message

Sat 16 Jun 12 19:06   Flying is for the birds - Ian (Cape Town)

>> >> It's stressful for the staff tho, food is drying up, they have all been >> told they will have to work past midnight to clear backlog. Small place like Jersey >> is not equipped or sized to cope. >> >> Absolutely Zero. People are screaming the place down because they don't like the boxed lunches >> or there's no cologne beside the slash bucket, and there are people struggling with the >> situation and having to try to be polite. I always feel sorry for them. >> >> Precisely. And for the poor sods who were on board the plane. Reply to this message | Report message

Sat 16 Jun 12 19:12   Flying is for the birds - Zero

>> >> situation and having to try to be polite. I always feel sorry for them. >> >> >> >> >> >> Precisely. And for the poor sods who were on board the plane. >> Yeah not the best start to a holiday, but the airport fire service are always happy to get some real action. Reply to this message | Report message

Sat 16 Jun 12 19:05   Flying is for the birds - Ian (Cape Town)

>> So I may have a tickle at claiming statutory delay >> compo. >> Why? did you honestly suffer any financial loss from the incident? Reply to this message | Report message

Sat 16 Jun 12 19:08   Flying is for the birds - Zero

This is the EU my old son, rules of carriage and all that, compo is statutory under those rules. And as it happens yes. I will have to pay extra parking at Southampton. Reply to this message | Report message

Sat 16 Jun 12 19:12   Flying is for the birds - Ian (Cape Town)

>> This is the EU my old son, rules of carriage and all that, compo is >> statutory under those rules. >> >> And as it happens yes. I will have to pay extra parking at Southampton. >> Under the circumstances who'd you claim off? the airline who bent their kite, or your own carrier? (or are they one and the same?) Reply to this message | Report message

Sat 16 Jun 12 19:15   Flying is for the birds - Zero

No they are not the same, but you claim off your carrier. Reply to this message | Report message

Sat 16 Jun 12 20:15   Flying is for the birds - Runfer D'Hills

>>compo is statutory under those rules. Wrong though isn't it. If an airline had lashed up by, for example, overbooking a flight then I'd have no hesitation in asking for recompense but when an unforeseen accident involving a different carrier causes a problem like the one described I really can't see how it seems reasonable to go after the airline for compensation. What's more, anyone who can afford a flight can probably afford to buy themselves a sandwich if need be. A neighbour of ours had a month off work and a big payout for supposed "whiplash" injuries recently. She was in so much pain she completely re-modelled her garden while at home recovering. The car was so badly damaged it needed a new back bumper as the old one was cracked for at least 2" of its length and and some paint surrounding that scar was quite definitely scratched. It was off the road for a week and a hire car provided. Irritates me that sort of thing I'm afraid. Reply to this message | Report message

Sat 16 Jun 12 23:18   Flying is for the birds - Duncan

>> A neighbour of ours had a month off work and a big payout for supposed >> "whiplash" injuries recently. She was in so much pain she completely re-modelled her garden while at home recovering. The car was so badly damaged it needed a new back bumper >> as the old one was cracked for at least 2" of its length and and some paint surrounding that scar was quite definitely scratched. It was off the road for a week and a hire car provided. >> >> Irritates me that sort of thing I'm afraid. >> >> Why didn't you grass her up? Reply to this message | Report message

Sat 16 Jun 12 23:49   Flying is for the birds - CGNorwich

There are few defences in the EU treaty relating to compensation for cancelled or delayed flights. However the airline can avoid compensation "if the cancellation was caused by extraordinary circumstances that could not have been avoided by any reasonable measure." I would suggest that an aircraft crashing and blocking the runway would come within that definition and I expect the airline will use that defence to avoid a payout. Reply to this message | Report message

Sun 17 Jun 12 00:02   Flying is for the birds - Zero

>> There are few defences in the EU treaty relating to compensation for cancelled or delayed >> flights. However the airline can avoid compensation "if the cancellation was caused by extraordinary circumstances >> that could not have been avoided by any reasonable measure." >> >> I would suggest that an aircraft crashing and blocking the runway would come within that >> definition and I expect the airline will use that defence to avoid a payout. I suspect that may well be the case as well, so I was surprised that the airline authorised meal expenses as per the EU treaty, which may or may not, or could or could not, be treated as admission of liability under the treaty. Reply to this message | Report message

Sat 16 Jun 12 23:58   Flying is for the birds - Zero

>> >>compo is statutory under those rules. >> >> Wrong though isn't it. Yes and no. Compo has got a bad name and its not the same thing as a Whiplash scrounger. The airline exists to make money - Its a commercial enterprise. It gains its license from the CAA by agreeing to abide by certain rules, regulations and standards. Those regulations include statuary sums of money paid in compensation for failure to provide the service. The airline and I took out a contract in effect, I had to abide by requirements, they had to abide by requirements, and a sum of money changed hands for services at a date and time I had chosen for my convenience (and paid a premium for). The services were not provided as per specification, and the contract terms state the penalty for non compliance. Had i failed to meet the terms of the agreement (by being late for example) they would have denied me carriage. Was I inconvenienced? Yes - greatly. 8 hours on a 35 minute flight is a considerable inconvenience. Plans had to be changed. Moreover I was in effect a prisoner at the airport with restricted choice in movements, and food and drink (at higher prices - the airport services made a killing). Was it my fault? No. Was it an act of god? No It was someones fault (bad maintenance, bad piloting skills, Manufacturing defect etc etc ) - the cause will be found by the AIB and published, and they won't blame god or a blameless accident. BUt they can't blame me. Therefore, If I can, I have no compunction whatsoever in invoking the compo clause in the terms of the contract. Given the way airlines and airports treat passengers I doubt anyone else would either. Contrast this with my thoughts when I had a car accident. It was my fault. I was injured. I declined the offers of pursuing claims for injuries from my insurance. The other guy was injured, and he quite rightly claimed from my insurance because it was my fault. Reply to this message | Report message

Sat 16 Jun 12 21:13   Flying is for the birds - Mapmaker

>> This is the EU my old son, rules of carriage and all that, compo is >> statutory under those rules. Jersey is NOT the EU... Anyway, this is how they used to cure a broken undercart, apparently presumed to be a Dakota somewhere in India c1942: img.photobucket.com/albums/v405/Aeroclub/img256.jpg Reply to this message | Report message       1

Sat 16 Jun 12 23:33   Flying is for the birds - Zero

>> Jersey is NOT the EU... The carrier IS, and its UK Airspace. Reply to this message | Report message

Sat 16 Jun 12 19:09   Flying is for the birds - Bromptonaut

>>but women had to go behind a curtain at the top of the ramp in the tail. Before the shewee I suppose. www.shewee.com/ Isn't there a story about Virginia Woolf, a non corridor train and a rolled up copy of The Times? Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Sat 16 Jun 12 at 19:11 Reply to this message | Report message

Sat 16 Jun 12 21:18   Flying is for the birds - sooty123

still the same now AC :) even on the new ones chaps at the front in a glorifed sink in front of everyone or the portaloo at the back. When was your trip in the 70's? Reply to this message | Report message

Sat 16 Jun 12 21:55   Flying is for the birds - Armel Coussine

>> When was your trip in the 70's? Made several such between 77 and 89. The thing that worried me in the Hercules was the slope on the ramp, 1 in 4 or steeper. I couldn't see what was behind the curtain, but I hoped it was on a secure wedge-shaped plinth and wasn't going to suddenly tumble and splash down into the body of the aircraft. And if I had been a woman toiling up that slope to the bucket behind the curtain, I would have worried all the time about some fool in the cockpit pressing the wrong button, opening the ramp and consigning me and the bucket to the void... A vivid imagination is a great burden sometimes. Reply to this message | Report message

Sat 16 Jun 12 22:04   Flying is for the birds - R.P.

Corrosion issues in certain versions of the C130 around the toilet area. Reply to this message | Report message

Sat 16 Jun 12 22:19   Flying is for the birds - sooty123

bad shots? Reply to this message | Report message

Sat 16 Jun 12 22:27   Flying is for the birds - rtj70

>> Estimated departure time is 20:15. That's 6 hours and 35 minutes late. A couple of weeks ago we got back from Lesvos. A week later the plane had problems - it took off very late from Manchester and had to come back. It eventually got out there over 27 hours late. The people waiting to come back got to the airport around 11:30am and were at Mytilini airport until 9:45pm! If you know the airport you know it is not equipped to handle delays like this. They were eventually taken to hotels and brought back the next afternoon. I assume Zero is back in the UK now - and on his way home. Reply to this message | Report message

Sat 16 Jun 12 22:52   Flying is for the birds - Armel Coussine

>> on his way home. Should be there within the hour if all has gone according to schedule. Reply to this message | Report message

Sat 16 Jun 12 23:40   Flying is for the birds - Zero

>> I assume Zero is back in the UK now - and on his way home. Yup - almost exactly 8 hours late. There were 51 of us (the load for the originally rostered Dash 8) luxuriating in a 118 seat Embraer 195 Reply to this message | Report message

Sun 17 Jun 12 01:05   Flying is for the birds - rtj70

So you were due to fly on the plane that had the problem too. I've been on an Embraer before. I don't recall the model but it had one seat on one side of the aisle and two on the other - luggage in the back. Got us to Bologna in comfort and it got to cruising altitude faster than any other plane I've been on. I think it might have been an Embraer 145? Operated by BA. I hope you get compensation Z. Reply to this message | Report message

Sun 17 Jun 12 08:36   Flying is for the birds - Bromptonaut

The 145 is 'commuter' jet seating around 45 and configured with two engines under the T tail. Seats 3 abreast 2+1. Operated in the past by one of BA's offshoot/franchise companies. The 195 is more of a mini airbus. Engines under the wings and seats 4 abreast two either side of the aisle. Flown BHX to Edinburgh on a FlyBe 195 a couple of times; very comfortable with leather seats more leg room than you'd expect. Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Sun 17 Jun 12 at 08:38 Reply to this message | Report message

Sat 16 Jun 12 23:02   Flying is for the birds - Harleyman

>> bad shots? >> Typo? ;-) Reply to this message | Report message

Sun 17 Jun 12 09:49   Flying is for the birds - henry k

One winters night I left the Sheraton in Jeddah for the airport and a flight home. On arrival the terminal was full of lost looking passengers. A quick enquiry deduced that Heathrow was snowed out and at to expect at least a 24 hour delay. We got the Sheraton bus back to town and then had a hard task insisting that we had our old rooms back just as we had left them. Of course the sytem could not cope with allocating an un made up room. A bit of foot stampimg sorted it out ( we were very regular customers) Oh the joys !!! Reply to this message | Report message

Sun 17 Jun 12 10:07   Flying is for the birds - R.P.

We suffered a 24 hour delay in Florida following the Volcano eruption. We were generally well treated - and well informed by an UK call centre. We kept the car for an extra day, a contingency was to drop down to a basic model if things lasted any longer and stayed an extra night in a very pleasant waterside hotel in St Petes'. Virgin treated us to a day at Busch Gardens. Got a text from Lloyds TSB reassuring us of availability of funds for a prolonged stay. Part of the contingency was to er...enjoy the extra enforced stay....my wife was concerned about her work but works for a good employer whose business is reacting to sudden events. I was worried about the en-kenneled dog...but that was sorted. We got an unexpected confirmation of a flight the next day - the call centre lady (and she was a lady with no regional accent !) was as surprised as we were. We flew home exactly one day late. Web access and access to international news reports proved essential. We got a good proportion of our extra money spent back. All in all it added something to the trip. As a worse case scenario an internal flight or a lengthy drive to a minor international airport (Bangor Maine maybe) was one of the options. There was plenty of "bed" availability in Florida - heard some right horror stories from people, one family flew from Orlando to Washington and I reckon to the busiest airports on the planet with little or no hotel availability. The girl we shares a row with on the flight home was flying to Manchester with no plan on how to get to Exeter.... Last edited by: R.P. on Sun 17 Jun 12 at 10:08 Reply to this message | Report message

Sun 17 Jun 12 18:34   Flying is for the birds - Zero

And here is a little slideshow of the event I captured from the departure lounge. www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Rttb9kp2JI Laughingly, I have just had a customer survey in my inbox from the carrier. Thye will get a very long reply that starts with the luggage being left out in the rain for 40 minutes on the outward leg, and the lack of information and tardy customer care on the return leg. Followed by the claim of course. Reply to this message | Report message

Tue 26 Jun 12 20:57   Flying is for the birds - Bromptonaut

Some discussion on the subject. www.pprune.org/rumours-news/488162-blue-islands-atr42-undercarriage-collapse-jersey.html Reply to this message | Report message

Wed 27 Jun 12 09:44   Flying is for the birds - Zero

Been described as a "crash" here www.airnewstimes.co.uk/jersey-airport-blue-island-plane-crash-probe-begins-14659-news.html They have imbedded my youtube video in the report. Be interesting to see the AAIB report. Reply to this message | Report message

Wed 27 Jun 12 16:39   Flying is for the birds - Zero

fearoflanding.com/flying-around-the-web/lost-hydraulics-fuselage-collapse-aircraft-falling-to-the-ground/ Reply to this message | Report message

Wed 27 Jun 12 22:12   Flying is for the birds - R.P.

Did they embed with your permission ?? Reply to this message | Report message

Wed 27 Jun 12 22:21   Flying is for the birds - Zero

Don't need to, I upload with a standard common license ( you can link to, but not download & copy) and the "allow imbed" button clicked on. Reply to this message | Report message

Wed 27 Jun 12 22:23   Flying is for the birds - R.P.

I like this development in journalism ! Seriously .....putting citizen journalists on the front page so to speak Reply to this message | Report message

Wed 27 Jun 12 22:30   Flying is for the birds - Zero

Now that publishing by various means is so easy, Everyone is a potential journo. Last edited by: Zero on Wed 27 Jun 12 at 22:30 Reply to this message | Report message

Thu 10 Oct 13 11:03   Flying is for the birds - Bromptonaut

Report in this month's AAIB bulletin. In brief, metal fatigue. www.aaib.gov.uk/publications/bulletins/october_2013/atr_42_320__g_drfc.cfm Reply to this message | Report message