Hard up daughter lives in an ex-council house in Birmingham, probably built in the 70s. Both neighbours are also ex-council, we believe.
She lost 3 fence panels and posts on one side over the weekend. Is the only reliable way to prove ownership to look at the deeds? Will the deeds actually show it, as the house was once council and presumably fence ownership didn't matter?
As she needs to keep costs down she'd prefer to just have the broken bits replaced, but my recollection is that it was all a bit ropey and if it were me I'd change the lot.
What do the team think would be a good price for the labour for someone to replace the fence, and remove the old stuff? Panel (6ft) seem to be about £20, posts (wooden) about £15 and I'd say there's probably 9 panels involved so a bit over £300 for parts - but how long would it take to put it up?
Also B&A have a spur for broken posts, which I imagine would work out cheaper - what do we think about these? www.diy.com/nav/garden/fencing-paving-decking/fencing/fence-fixings-tools/repair_spurs/Metpost-Repair-Spur-Red-75mm-9276638 . Do bear in mind she's on a budget, it's very easy for those of us with dosh to say it'd be easier and better to replace the lot.
EDIT she can get the deeds from the Land Registry - deeds or plan only is £19.95 or £28.95 for both. Presume she'd need the plan. www.landregistryservices.com/forms/eng-land-registry.asp?pack=title-register
Would her mortgage company have a look at it for her for free, as presumably they have a copy?
Last edited by: smokie on Mon 30 Apr 12 at 15:42
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> www.diy.com/nav/garden/fencing-paving-decking/fencing/fence-fixings-tools/repair_spurs/Metpost-Repair-Spur-Red-75mm-9276638
I think the full stop at the end of the link stops it from working. No?
Last edited by: Duncan on Mon 30 Apr 12 at 15:38
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The deeds site you linked to is a con. You can get the same plans online direct from the land registry for about £4...
www.landregistry.gov.uk/
I must have called up a dozen house plans over the time we were looking last year and it's a great service.
However often the plans do not show the detail needed to 100% prove fence ownership. I'd always approach next door to go half and if they're not interested just do it yourself to get some privacy back.
I hate those knock in metal repair spikes... if for no other reason than the very place you need to knock it in is where the remains of the old post/concrete will stop you driving it in fully. Dig it out and do it properly for me every time.
I'm going to take a wild guess that the labour should at least equal the materials costs??
Last edited by: Fenlander on Mon 30 Apr 12 at 15:41
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>> She lost 3 fence panels and posts on one side over the weekend. Is the
>> only reliable way to prove ownership to look at the deeds? Will the deeds actually
>> show it, as the house was once council and presumably fence ownership didn't matter?
Yes the deed will show it, as ownership would have had to be agreed at time of sale
www.landregistryservices.com/forms/eng-land-registry.asp?pack=title-register
>> Would her mortgage company have a look at it for her for free, as presumably
>> they have a copy?
Do it for free? you are joking of course
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If money is in short supply I would go for the Metposts - you probably won't even need to buy any new wooden posts.
I've used them in the past.
Edit: This is your link, Smokie. www.diy.com/nav/garden/fencing-paving-decking/fencing/fence-fixings-tools/repair_spurs/Metpost-Repair-Spur-Red-75mm-9276638
Last edited by: Clk Sec on Mon 30 Apr 12 at 15:46
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>>>Yes the deed will show it, as ownership would have had to be agreed at time of sale
From our recent move I know the deeds might indicate fence ownership but it isn't 100% proof and unless it's something you want your solicitor to spend extra time pinning down you don't have to 100% agree fence ownership to buy a house.
Proving ownership and getting the owner to do the repairs are two very different things anyway.
Last edited by: Fenlander on Mon 30 Apr 12 at 15:46
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It isn't actually fence ownership, it's boundary ownership. Not that it matters that much because you can't insist that a neighbour repairs or installs a new fence.
I've carried out fencing repairs in the past rather than wait forever and a day until a neighbour gets around to doing it.
Last edited by: Clk Sec on Mon 30 Apr 12 at 15:55
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Yeah she had a bit of an issue with the same neighbour over the front gutter, it was leaking onto next door's front garden from where the gutters join. Neighbour insisted it was daughter's guttering which was "broken".
Hers needed doing anyway, but the leak was apparently caused entirely because next door had had theirs replaced with square guttering and their contractor had not properly sealed the new joint box.
She doesn't want to fall out with the neighbour, and I don't want her to, but I also don't want the neighbour to take advantage. I've met the neighbour, nice enough lady but probably also short of a bob or two and I imagine a fairly domineering personailty.
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Isn't there a rule of thumb about which fence is yours?
The left - as you look down the garden - rings a bell.
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I used to think that, Iffy. But it is not always the case.
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Yes of course it is effectively the boundary that's owned but the fence is the most usual manifestation of a garden boundary.
Actually my deeds say...
...(Restrictions and Stipulations) 1. To maintain all the fences marked "T" within the boundaries of the Plot on the plan...
But there isn't a "T" anywhere on the drawings so I see at sometime this note has been added to the deeds.
...NOTE:-The "T" mark referred to affects the Eastern boundary of the land in this title...
In reality we own the boundary and fence to the eastern, north eastern and north western sides.
These flexible legal situations are why some folks spend thousands defending/claiming 6" of land.
Last edited by: Fenlander on Mon 30 Apr 12 at 16:05
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>> Isn't there a rule of thumb about which fence is yours?
>>
>> The left - as you look down the garden - rings a bell.
>>
My fence is on the right when I look down my back garden.
IIRC In the old old days the arris rails were on the owners side.
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>>My fence is on the right when I look down my back garden.
Mine too, complete with some of the original 1930's posts and arris rails.
But my parents' 1930's house had their fence on the left.
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"Isn't there a rule of thumb about which fence is yours?"
Fences are (or should be) totally built within the land of the owner.
In the absence of any other evidence it is assumed that any supporting posts or supports are on the land of the owner of the fence.
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Fenlander has answered the ownership issues. Just because it is your neighbour's fence doesn't mean he will have any inclination to mend it.
The biggest unknown is what the ground conditions are like and what the existing foundations are like. If there is a lot of concrete around the posts then that will cost a lot to remove or you will be forced to use the repair spurs. I have had mixed success with them.
Cheapest solution will to be replace the minimum number of posts and patch up the panels.
If all the old fence is removed and the ground is clay then a fencer could put up 9 panels and 9 posts in less than a day - say £200 labour.
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...Fenlander has answered the ownership issues. Just because it is your neighbour's fence doesn't mean he will have any inclination to mend it...
That's true, but better to know what's what if possible because the neighbour might not want you to mend his fence.
Or he might not like how you are going to do it.
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>>If there is a lot of concrete around the posts then that will cost a lot to remove or you will be forced to use the repair spurs.
It would be an easy and inexpensive repair to carry out with metposts / repair posts, straight into existing concrete.
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>>but better to know what's what if possible because the neighbour might not want you to mend his fence.
Very, Very unlikely if my experience is anything to go by.
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>>>Very, Very unlikely if my experience is anything to go by.
True.
The house we've just bought had a major boundary issue that would always have spoiled the place. Unless resolved we wouldn't have purchased and many lookers couldn't think how it could be resolved.
We just budgeted (in the thousands) to do the work as part of the purchase costs then reflected that in our offer having gained agreement from the boundary owner who didn't have the funds. Not long after moving in we sorted the boundary and now it's good for decades.
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Correct. There is a special metapost that goes into two sides of the broken off stump in the concrete. I have just used one and it worked fine. Wickes panels are reasonable.
Fencing contractors are expensive round our way, at least £100 a panel for 6' larch lap with posts and fixing.
They used to say the posts were on the owner's side. Not much help if it's a typical larch lap type thing where the posts are between the panels.
Last edited by: Manatee on Mon 30 Apr 12 at 16:14
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Scenario 1. Foot thick strong concrete all around rotten timber post. Bang in Metpost repair spur. Re-use trimmed post. Job done in ten minutes.
Scenario 2. Large individual base of concrete around post but narrow and weak at top. Bang in Metpost repair spur. Concrete splits. Have to add more concrete around top of base above ground level or dig out all the existing concrete, go and get new post and post-fix and concrete in new post. Job takes hours longer than expected.
I've had both. If it is a Sunday afternoon it will definately be the latter!
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Which side are the posts...? As good a rule as any, expect any stuff from the LR to be non-specific, although if the Local Authority lawyers have done a thorough job they will have documented ownership. Go direct to the Land Registry as suggested, these pig in the middle companies are a rip-off.
Below is from the CAB publicly available information
Establishing the boundaries and ownership
If a dispute arises between neighbours about the boundary between their properties, it will be necessary to establish who owns the disputed land. The primary evidence will be contained in the legal documents. Clear evidence of this kind is normally conclusive.
However, the boundaries between properties can differ from those described in the title documents or lease in certain circumstances. The most common are where they have been changed by agreement or by encroachment (occupation without permission).
For more information about boundary disputes, see the website of RICS at: www.rics.org. RICS also operates a boundary disputes helpline. They can put you in touch with a chartered surveyor who can give you 30 minutes free advice. The helpline number is: 0870 333 1600.
If you think that the boundaries are not defined in the title document or lease, or that the boundaries have been changed by agreement or encroachment, you will probably need to get legal advice from a solicitor.
For more information about using a solicitor, see Using a solicitor.
However, you may also wish to try mediation first as a way of resolving your dispute with your neighbour (see under heading, How to deal with a neighbour dispute).
CAB have access to more detailed information by the way.
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I've had fence ownership disputes with my neighbours, fortunately they're clearly marked on the deeds (photocopy when bought ;>))
Despite this, one neighbour complains they can't be responsible for both their boundaries - they are, they're a corner plot. Consider a pair of semis, there'll be three fences.
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30 quid a yard to erect new 6 foot high fence round my way.
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Is there any law that compels the owner to repair a fence?
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All depends on the deeds and the council and how much you want to keep the neighbours out.
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There is an obscure piece of legislation that requires you to keep stuff in good order to prevent injury to anyone that is on your land - Occupiers Liability Act
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupiers%27_Liability_Act_1957
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupiers%27_Liability_Act_1984
The '84 Act extends the duty of care to trespassers.
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I could be wrong but I don't think there's any law that says you must repair a fence. Indeed there's no law that says you must have a fence. Were I so minded (I'm not!) I could remove my fence altogether if I didn't want one. If my neighbour had dogs, it's up to them to keep them in - thus they may want to erect and maintain a fence. I might not have anything to keep in.
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>> I could be wrong but I don't think there's any law that says you must
>> repair a fence. Indeed there's no law that says you must have a fence. Were
>> I so minded (I'm not!) I could remove my fence altogether if I didn't want
>> one. If my neighbour had dogs, it's up to them to keep them in -
Not.
If your deeds say the fence responsibility is yours, you can indeed let it fall down, but if you want to keep the dog out its up to you to maintain your boundary of responsibility..
And don't try to fall back on the "dog under control" umbrella, a dog is deemed to be under control if it can be recalled, and is not being dangerous. The fact its gently wandering around your garden is your problem.
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My deeds say the boundary is my responsibility. I can mark that with a line of posts or a wire strung along them.
I recently had a problem with a neighbour's fence, allowing their dogs to defecate in my garden. I warned them they may like to keep them out due to the rat poison...............
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There is an excellent forum on this kind of thing at www.gardenlaw.co.uk
The basic points appear to be:
In the absence of definitive agreements, fence ownership is really only established by custom over time. Deeds cannot be relied on to show ownership, nor even the boundary position to the accuracy required.
There is no obligation to maintain your fence
No one "owns" the boundary - it is an infinitely thin line. The boundary usually runs so that the fence is entirely on the side of the person owning it. The non-owner is free to put up his own fence, but it must be entirely on his side of the boundary. If you erect or repair a fence that is on the other side then you risk losing it.
If you put up your own fence you must not attach it to the other fence.
Experts on the garden law forum seem to be agreed that it is always the animal owner's responsibility to keep it within their property, regardless of the state of other people's fences.
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Its important to maintain a visible boundary, because if you don't, over time it "creeps" and you end up loosing ground.
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Maybe even losing it Zeddo.
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>> Its important to maintain a visible boundary, because if you don't, over time it "creeps"
>> and you end up loosing ground.
And even then.......
In my previous home the next door neighbour, Arthur, and the guy on other side to me (B) had a dispute. Houses were at right angles to each other but could not agree exactly how boundary bisected the angle. There was a marker of sorts; a line of posts linked by a chain.
B sold up and moved out of area. Removals van left then Mr B with pet rabbits etc in car. No sooner was car round corner then Arthur was out with a sledgehammer moving the line of posts to enlarge his territory...
If B had turned back for something he'd have been caught red handed.
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happened next door to my mum. People next door rented out the house while away abroad for two years. During a period where the house was unoccupied (3 weeks) the other neighbours erected a larch lap fence down one side stealing a three food strip of garden int he process.
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>>The fact its gently wandering around your garden is your problem.
That's right as far as I know. It's up to you to keep your neighbours dog out of your garden, not up to your neighbour to ensure that it stays in his.
Strange as it seems.
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just tell the neighbor that the fence is going to cost £xxx to replace, and if they are not willing to contribute you will have no option but to install Leylandii.
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About £300 is right.How long to put the fence up .Metal spikes one day,concrete post two days.I paid for concrete post £15 4 by 4 inch.Do they know anybody who is handy saves money.I would would have a friendly word again with the neighbour.Leylandi is a no no.
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There are some Leylandii trees on the other side of the garden which she wants out. They've been allowed to get excessively large by previous owners. I wanted to get up a ladder and have a go but nearest and dearest said too risky - they must be at least 25' tall.
Maybe she can get the trees cleared and the fence fixed all by the same person...
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I'd quite like to chop down trees. I'd do it for you free if I lived nearer. Quite fancy a bit of chainsaw recreation.
I'd do it for a living if there was a living in it. Got to be more fun than most jobs.
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'I'd do it for a living if there was a living in it.'
Tow oak trees on my boundary need pruning. Listed trees. Look like its going to cost a four figure sum!
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>> 'I'd do it for a living if there was a living in it.'
350 quid to take a third off the top of three 30 foot silver birches I had to pay. 3 hours work.
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>>Tow oak trees
West midlands accent?
;>)
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Fence ownership and repair costs - Duncan
