USA Profits power ahead............European losses and losses due to floods in SE Asia takes the shine off the annual figures
www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/transport/9045457/Europe-casts-shadow-over-Fords-American-engine.html
Economic woes in Europe gives Ford a headache...........what would you like to see from Ford to make you buy one rather than a VW, BMW or whatever your favoured make is?
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I was thinking about this earlier, I saw a new Focus, it seems to have "disappeared" now - sort of morphed into some euro or far-eastern clone-mobile
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I know its a bigger and better car, but when we thought we might have a bigger budget were going to get a mid spec Fiesta, even with huge discounts it would have been £10,500 and it will still less powerful and slightly less equipped than the i10 we are getting.
Look what you get on the basic spec Ford Ka, it comes with a luxury item called wind up windows.
Ford are simply loosing to Asia in the value area, people will no longer put up with expensive options that should be standard.
If Ford want to remain a major player in the private market they need to improve their specs and improve their warranty. They can always command a 15% premium over the Korean stuff, but on certain cars at the moment spec for spec the Ford is at least 25% more expensive.
Ford Ka is a joke, the Fiesta is a good car but is too poorly equipped (the base doesn't even have central locking!) the Focus is no doubt a great car but has been watered down slightly giving the Koreans even more of a chance to catch up and the Mondeo is rapidly using its market place.
What Ford really needs is something like a new Puma, I think that could sell very very well
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The Focus equivalent of my car is three grand more expensive, at list OTR prices. It has similar but not identical equipment and a less powerful engine.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Sat 28 Jan 12 at 15:55
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>> ............ the Focus is no doubt a great
>> car ...........
The thing which is putting me off the latest Focus is the front seats. The cheapest two variants (Studio and Edge) have Comfort-style seats which I find comfortable. All the other variants (Zetec, Zetec S, Titanium and Titanium X) have Sports-style seats which I can't tolerate. The side bolsters press on my thighs and I would end up with painful bursitis ~ I know this from previous experience of cars with similarly-bolstered seats. The fact that Ford call the Studio and Edge seats Comfort-style suggests that they are aware that the Sports-stlye seats are not comfortable. My dilemma is that I'd like a Titanium, but I wouldn't be able to tolerate the seats. When I bought my 2003 Ghia ~ at the time the top of the range ~ it (and the bottom of the range variant) had comfortable seats so I didn't have the same problem. I've toyed with asking the local Ford dealer if they could fit Comfort-style seats into a Titanium but I'm not going to hold my breath.
Last edited by: L'escargot on Sat 28 Jan 12 at 16:27
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Mondeo equivalent of my C5 is about a grand more at list price and has no auto wipers / lights / photochromic rear view mirror, but to be fair in that segment we all know that list prices are just an indicator.
On a personal note I find most of the Ford interiors a little cheap feeling unless you can afford the highest spec. Plastic sprayed silver etc. New Fiesta reminds me of an Aiwa stereo I had from Dixons back in the late 80's
I also dont think they help themselves with this continued policy of having very high OTT list prices and then discounting. A lot of people will look at the list price and decide its to expensive, or it looks expensive compared to other makes - I notice that the Korean brands tend to start cheaper but discount less, so in relaity the difference is probably less than it can look.
Also the high list prices make the % residual values look really poor so when they get reviewed in auto express etc they often appear to be the more expensive choice.
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And, of course, BIK values are based on list prices, and that must be a high proportion of Ford sales.
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>> I also dont think they help themselves with this continued policy of having very high
>> OTT list prices and then discounting.
Couldn't agree more. It's a suicidal policy on almost every level. Not only does it make the cars an expensive proposition in terms of BiK, but the discounting policy puts a significant dent in residual values. This makes them less attractive for private buyers, and the higher lease costs that result make them uncompetitive compared with their German competitors in the company car market. It's a lose lose situation in every respect.
Sensible people buy Fords 'nearly new'. A colleague has just picked up a beautiful, and genuinely immaculate 2011 Mondeo 2.0T Ecoboost Titanium X Sport (rolls off the tongue), with 9000 miles on the clock, from a Ford main dealer, for £16,600. That's a beautiful, capable, well made, well engineered car for just 58% of its list price at 9 months old.
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>>
>> Ford are simply loosing to Asia in the value area, people will no longer put
>> up with expensive options that should be standard.
>>
>> If Ford want to remain a major player in the private market they need to
>> improve their specs and improve their warranty. They can always command a 15% premium over
>> the Korean stuff, but on certain cars at the moment spec for spec the Ford
>> is at least 25%
>>
Don't forget the Asians have a massive advantage in cheaper wages. Imagine the uproar if they transferred manufacture out to Korea? And not everyone buys solely on price. I've not driven all the cars, but the road test always rate Fords as better to drive than KIA/Hyundais
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>> but the road test always rate Fords as better to drive
>> than KIA/Hyundais
>>
Maybe Ford provide better freebies for motoring journalists, I have owned both a Focus and a Ceed, the difference in handling is not noticeable in everyday daily use. At the extremes on the track maybe, but even then marginal. I actually prefer the Ceed it has an oriental feel to the controls, light and precise.
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i bet the ceed is lighter and better engines as well.
fortunatley for ford their ecoboost engines could really turn the tables.
one part of me feels that the likes of kia and hyundai will very shortly give vauxhall and ford a serious run for their money.
ford have the ecoboost engines comming out but what does vauxhall have?
their 1.4 turbo engine has reportedly been shown to need to be worked hard to make progress.
vauxhalls corsa is well overweight for what it is and the current fiesta has lost some fat compared to the previous model.
generally speaking if a car is lighter then the engine is not working so hard so lower emmissions.
ford know this but does vauxhall?
dont get me wrong, i actually like fords and vauxhalls but feel the south korean makers are really onto something.
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How would you do this back to back ON ?
From this thread you seem to think the KIA is so much cheaper but when I looked at the What Car ? website the difference between purchase price of Kia 89PS C'eed estate diesel vs 94PS Focus Edge Estate was c. £1500 but after three years motoring this worked out to round about £200 for a like for like base model. The Focus being about 200Kgs lighter and lower on CO2.
What are your own comparible real world figures ?
Maybe we should just shut down Europe and import from the far east. Job done...
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With Nissan, Toyota, Kia, Hyundai, and Honda having European factories to satisfy most of their requirements for the European market, you don't have to shut down Europe and import from the Far East .....................
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If you look at the spread of these factories they are either in the UK or the old eastern-bloc.
As Humph often mentions about footwear and clothing, people are focused and driven by price.
I see the same thing happening with the white goods car.
Some people still want hand made quality but the buy it, use it, throw it majority will change how we motor I feel.
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>> What are your own comparible real world figures ?
>>
>> Maybe we should just shut down Europe and import from the far east. Job done...
>>
>>
As Auristocrat says the KIAs are built (and the Ceed designed) in Europe.
As for real world figures I buy a car that suits my needs and I like. The odd few hundred pounds a year one way or the other are immaterial. The point I was trying to make is that for everyday commuting, schoolrun, and supermarket run use, the assorted euroboxes are largely down to personal choice as any dynamic differences would only be seen on a track by a skilled track driver.
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...as any dynamic differences would only be seen on a track by a skilled track driver...
I agree with the general comments about Euroboxes, but some dynamic differences are apparent.
There's a right turn junction on a bend and on a slope on my way to work.
I like the way the Focus takes that junction - at about 15 or 20mph.
It's noticeably superior to other hatchbacks, and I am in no way a 'skilled track driver'.
The same differences are apparent on roundabouts and some other bends - all taken within the speed limit.
Could I live with a poorer handling Auris of C'eed?
Of course I could, easily, but the difference are significant enough for me to choose to live with a Focus.
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>> Could I live with a poorer handling Auris of C'eed?
:-P
>> Of course I could, easily, but the difference are significant enough for me to choose
>> to live with a Focus.
>>
I bow to your greater skill. :-)
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...I bow to your greater skill. :-)...
If I have any, which is unlikely, advancing age means I'm now too cautious to use it.
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The Kia plant in Slovakia builds the Ceed, Sportage and Venga, and also the Hyundai ix35 for Europe. The Hyundai Turkey plant builds the i20 for Europe. The Hyundai Czech Republic plant builds the ix20 and i30 for Europe. So the advantage for them is in using European manufacturing where wage costs, etc are lower.
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Do Fords appear to be expensive because they are over engineered. After all does the everyday motorist, who just nips down the shops need torque vectoring, grill blinds that move depending on speed, cars that park themselves?
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>> Do Fords appear to be expensive because they are over engineered. After all does the
>> everyday motorist, who just nips down the shops need torque vectoring, grill blinds that move
>> depending on speed, cars that park themselves?
>>
No idea what the cost of torque vectoring is, but grill blinds I would guess are pretty cheap, and needed to keep emissions competitive (I may be wrong, but think that VW have used this on bluemotion models for a while now).
As for self parking its an expensive option - don't think it comes as standard on anything, and VW have also offered this for a while now.
The things Ford offer are needed to keep them competitive in the market place
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>> As for self parking its an expensive option - don't think it comes as standard
>> on anything, and VW have also offered this for a while now.
>>
>> The things Ford offer are needed to keep them competitive in the market place
>>
tinyurl.com/79fj8a8
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>
>>
>> tinyurl.com/79fj8a8
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I stand corrected - If I was to spend 21.5K on a focus I can have it as standard
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>> I stand corrected - If I was to spend 21.5K on a focus...
...you'd be daft - £16.8k at Drivethedeal :)
Although as was pointed out above it seems daft that Ford create the huge gap between retail and broker price.
Last edited by: Focus on Sun 29 Jan 12 at 12:52
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>>Although as was pointed out above it seems daft that Ford create the huge gap between retail and broker price.
Exactly and when I am buying a company car if there is no difference in BIK to me I will go for the Audi A3 or BMW rather than the Ford at the same or at least very similar monthly amount.
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I would never buy another car with green dashboard and instrument illumination.
It's just a matter of personal taste.
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I love the way that when top managers of a company manage to increase sales and profit it's down to their brilliant strategic thinking and astonishing management capability. When sales and profits go the other way, it's due to external factors beyond their control such as floods and economic crises.
Well, the euro crisis doesn't seem to have affected the European businesses of BMW, VW or Hyundai who are doing very nicely. FWIW I think the Mondeo is good, but far too big for the accomodation it offers and my wife went right off the Fiesta and Ka due to dreadful forward and rearward vision. Focus? I'd rather have a Golf - though I might actually be tempted by the latest generation i30 or C'eed. I'd probably take a Smax if I wanted a people carrier though.
On the other hand, if there's one manufacturer who really seems to be in the brown stuff, it's Peugeot. Sales down 8% last year just in France - where in the same period VW increased sales by 12%.
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>> On the other hand, if there's one manufacturer who really seems to be in the
>> brown stuff, it's Peugeot. Sales down 8% last year just in France - where in
>> the same period VW increased sales by 12%.
>>
I wonder if the French are becoming less patriotic. I'm over there tomorrow so I'll keep an eye out of what newish cars I see around.
I believe though that PSA are making good inroads in China
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>>
>> >> On the other hand, if there's one manufacturer who really seems to be in
>> the
>> >> brown stuff, it's Peugeot. Sales down 8% last year just in France - where
>> in
>> >> the same period VW increased sales by 12%.
>> >>
>>
>> I wonder if the French are becoming less patriotic. I'm over there tomorrow so I'll
>> keep an eye out of what newish cars I see around.
>>
>> I believe though that PSA are making good inroads in China
>>
Just come back from (a very cold) Lyon and dis observe that there did appear to be quite a few newer VAG models about. Hire car was a Passat, and they had probably about 30% VW's in the rental places.
Noticeable was the number of Dacias - quite a number on the roads and in the rental companies.
Flew back into Birmingham, and Europcar once again managed to find a Vauxhall for me (sure they do it on purpose) and noticed that they had MG6's for hire. First ones I have seen in the metal
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>> >> I stand corrected - If I was to spend 21.5K on a focus...
>>
>> ...you'd be daft - £16.8k at Drivethedeal :)
>>
>> Although as was pointed out above it seems daft that Ford create the huge gap
>> between retail and broker price.
>>
Yes, the people on here may well shop around, but many just either look at list price and decide its to much so are put off even getting into the showroom, and others will just pay what they are told.
A colleagues FIL bought a new fiesta last year......and had agreed to pay list price before he had a chance to talk to him. Then showed him the drive the deal price to which FIL and MIL said that they were not interested as it looked to risky and they liked dealing with the same main dealer they have bought the last X new cars from......
Still, I guess the high margin sales leave more scope for the rest of us to negotiate
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>>
>> Although as was pointed out above it seems daft that Ford create the huge gap
>> between retail and broker price.
>>
I never understood this relatively recent strategy at Ford, I've had great service from a couple of Fords (2x Mondeo IIIs and a Focus I) - chosen when I could have afforded something more upmarket but didn't see the point. But as a company car driver in recent years I could get a BMW for a similar or lower BIK and better short term (2 year) lease cost so why would I choose a Ford ?
As a (<1year old) second hand private purchase they're great value, if I opt out of a company car in the future an S-Max or Mondy Estate will be on my 'candidate list', but probably not a new one unless the broker price is comparable.
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Agree, we just had to fairly rapidly replace our trusty 1.9 tdi Octavia after it was written off. So it was off to the supermarkets, budget 7.5 K ish, to spec a 5 door family car, 10000 miles a year, runabout. Didn't like the Astra, I30 was an option but in the end settled on a 1 year old Focus 1.6 zetec for £7.7K. And it's very pleasant, so far averaging 40mpg, comfy and I'd forgotten how nice they are to drive. Equivalent Golf was 3 to 4 K more. Question is: is it actually worth the extra to have the badge or not?
So the ferocious depreciation in the first year works ok for private buyers like myself.
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Ford - Ford PROFIT - brought down by European Losses - R.P.
