www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-north-west-wales-16378016
Tragic waste of life. I know that bit of road very well, straight in a 30 limit. Happened at 6.00am.
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Tragic indeed. Aquaplaning perhaps?
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If both died instantly, one has to wonder if they were wearing seatbelts? Modern-ish car, would've had airbags etc.
Tragic indeed.
Last edited by: Harleyman on Sun 1 Jan 12 at 19:55
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I was pondring that myself just now 30 mph limit, The car obviously spun round and shed a wheel in the impact suggests a faster speed than the speed limit
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Probably not really fair to speculate at this stage, that is the job of the police.
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...Probably not really fair to speculate at this stage...
New Year's Day morning, likely no other car involved, young lass driving, leads to one obvious speculation.
The toxicology results of the post mortem will bottom that one out.
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Bit of informed speculation Rats, although I accept what you say.
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I am sure we all have ideas, and I do too BUT just in case it isn't what we think its probably best to reserve judgement until we know the facts.
I say this because my cousin had a similar accident, he wasn't drunk or driving dangerously it was just an error of judgement which resulted him being in hospital for over two weeks. I am sure at the time people were speculating a young lad etc....
I just feel sorry for their family and friends.
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>> he wasn't drunk or driving dangerously it was just an error of judgement which resulted him being in hospital for over two weeks.
Unless it was someone else's error of judgment Sheikha, then yr cousin was driving dangerously, if only dangerously to himself. It can happen to anyone of course, a dislodged kerbstone, an icy puddle, but you would still kick yourself afterwards surely? I always do, even when someone else seems to have caused the accident.
I don't want to sound too experienced in this area of course...
:o}
PS: no way was the car in the OP photo doing 30. More like 70 it looks like. And hit something very unyielding at an unfortunate angle. Poor girls, their poor families.
Last edited by: Armel Coussine on Sun 1 Jan 12 at 20:58
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It was an error of judgement, e.g not deliberately driving dangerously, even the police said he was well within the speed limit. He wasn't that experience at at the time and I think he just miss judged a corner a hit a tree head on at 40mph.
Luckily his injuries were limited to a few broken bones and it wasn't at all life threatening.
This was also very close to where this accident happened which is why I bought it up.
Young people dying in road accidents seems to be a major problem in more rural areas.
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>> It was an error of judgement, e.g not deliberately driving dangerously, even the police said he was well within the speed limit.
No offence at all Sheikha, and I am very glad your cousin wasn't hurt even worse, but if that isn't dangerous driving - going off on a bend and running straight into a tree - I will eat my hat, or would if I had one.
If anyone else had been injured the old bill would have charged him with dd or wdc&a for sure. And with the wrong judge or magistrate he might have got porridge especially if someone had been killed.
As I say, I am glad nothing like that happened, that they were sorry for him and let it pass, and that he is now OK. But it is dangerous to drive so far beyond your ability that you make mistakes like that. That's why everyone worries about bushy-tailed young drivers: they are at risk - and so are those around them - for banal and obvious but real reasons.
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Know the stretch of road too, dreadful accident.
Agree with the comments about the speed, our Octavia was recently involved in a head-on accident at 40mph with another vehicle at similar speed. Both cars were obviously destroyed but the damage to both was a lot less than that pictured and everybody fortunately walked/hobbled away.
Reminds me of a similar tragedy locally when 3 lads were wiped out in a 30 mph limit, hit a post. Sometimes it's unfathomable how it happens isn't it.
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Feel for those left bereaved.
The sight of a uniformed officer walking deliberately up to the front door when somebody maybe knew one of their flock is late, something we pray won't happen to our families.
I don't know how it happens either.
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This area has been hit hard of late, three young people freom that village in the space of a montha
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Oh come on, its not that much of a mystery now is it. We have discussed it on here often enough, almost certainly a typical display of youthful invincibility and risk management.
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www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-north-east-wales-16473385
This one looks to me, at first glance and as much as one can tell from the picture, like it should have been survivable.
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>> like it should have been survivable.
You'd be amazed at some of the crashes where people have limped off walking wounded, leaving behind true carnage...yet on the other side of the coin, what looks like a medium 'fender bender' can involve a fatality.
There are times when there doesn't seem to be any reason to it.
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>>There are times when there doesn't seem to be any reason to it.
>>
A few years ago the eldest son of great friends was killed in a car his brother was driving.
The car had a puncture , when decending a slip road it finished up being T boned by a coach in the nearside main carriageway.
Not a lot of damage to the open top sports car but driver was in ICU etc.
"Not a mark on the driver".
There was no blame on the driver but that not easied the mental pain.
I was an almost new demo car and in an otherwise 100% state,
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>> www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-north-east-wales-16473385
>>
>> This one looks to me, at first glance and as much as one can tell
>> from the picture, like it should have been survivable.
>>
I think the "Hit a tree" is important. Trees are unforgiving in impacts, in the same league as bridge supports.
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Very sad!
A few years ago this happened about 2 miles from where I live:
www.ggm11.plus.com/carcrash.htm
(Police involved remotely and not the cause imho).
It is always very sad.
Less speed, better cars help survival.
I once saw a Corsa with no front left (up to the A pillars) on the M25 after running in to the back of a lorry. All passengers were waiting patiently behind the crash barrier.
On the M40 just before Xmas, the van in front of me totally flipped and rolled. I saw one wheel rise then then all four as it drifted right and then rolled twice before ending up sliding off the motorway. Thank goodness I try and stick to the 2 second rule as it slowed down very quickly.
I was too busy checking my mirrors to take avoiding action it to assess why it rolled but pulled over when I could and called the authorities.
I noticed a lot of lorries behind it pulled over to assist so I did not reverse back up to check.
I later read that he was bruised but nothing more serious. Considering the way it rolled, I would have expected a worse outcome.
Last edited by: zippy on Tue 10 Jan 12 at 11:51
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I think the one that stands out for me happened round the corner...probably 20 years ago now.
I was aware of a large increase of traffic past our house, including buses and heavies. I walked to the end of the road that connects us to the main road and saw the blues a couple of hundred yards to the right.
Later I found out that a stolen Sierra, driven by a 14 yr old traveller with 2 others in the car had clipped the kerb of a pedestrian refuge at high speed...30 mph built up, residential. The driver didn't have the experience to handle the car and it went up the right hand kerb sideways, the drivers door hitting a mature beech tree. All three died instantly and the tree had to be cut down due to the amount of human and vehicular debris embedded in it's bark.
I had a chance to have a look at the Sierra later in the week, still on the recovery vehicle.
It was more than banana shaped, it was 'V' shaped. The base of the offside B post was touching the nearside one where the tree had gone in.
Totally unyielding !
Ted
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www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/2012/01/10/llanrug-car-crash-victim-sasha-jarvis-is-laid-to-rest-55578-30090099/
Funerals have been held. Makes incredibly sad reading. There was a photograph in the paper version of the DP which showed the grave of her friend her personal plate on it, S14NGL - I've seen this a 100 times in the area, misreading it for Signal (!) - life is cruel.
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The after crash pics are often taken after the fire service has hacked the vehicle about to remove the occupants, so the physical damage to the car can look more extensive than it was.
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I saw a similar one on the A1 once. It was on one of the dual carriageway sections where there is a right turn into a side road. Emergency services in attendance en masse.
On the opposite carriageway, pointing in my direction, was a vehicle shortened to the extent that its radiator grille was now immediately below what remained of the windscreen.
Obvious conclusion: It's T-boned somebody turning right.
Obvious problem: No other visible vehicle.
Studying my R/H mirror as I passed revealed a tree about 50yds back from the junction with what looked like a Citroen BX wrapped completely around it sideways.
I still wonder how fast the car on the A1 carriageway was going at the time to achieve that.
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>> junction with what looked like a Citroen BX wrapped completely around it sideways.
>>
>> I still wonder how fast the car on the A1 carriageway was going at the
>> time to achieve that.
The BX was a lovely car but it just pre dated crash worthiness rules. A med sized 5 seat hatch today has an empty weight pushing 1500kg. Even the heaviest BX (diesel/lux trim etc) only just tipped a tonne.
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...The BX was a lovely car...
Lightweight vehicle as you say, which meant the diesels went well and gave good economy.
Didn't the BXs have plastic bonnets and/or wings?
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>>Didn't the BXs have plastic bonnets and/or wings?<<
Yes, plastic bonnets, tailgates and parts of the roof trim although I have seen one BX16v with a metal bonnet. The 16v was a road rocket, 160bhp and just about a tonne weight.
The Xantia carried over the plastic tailgate tradition.
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>> Didn't the BXs have plastic bonnets and/or wings?
The 16v may have had a ‘power bulge’ making a pressed metal component easier than tooling new plastic moulding. There’s also a tale that the very last standard models had metal bonnets too leading to a possibly apocryphal tale.
One Citroen salesman habitually demonstrated the plastic bonnet’s resilience by leaping backwards to deposit his full weight on it. All fine until he tried it with the run out model –large bum shaped dent in bonnet…& no sale
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>>The 16v may have had a ‘power bulge’<<
My 16v had no bulge and the normal plastic bonnet. I think you are correct in that the last models had the steel ones.
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>> www.ggm11.plus.com/carcrash.htm
>>
>> (Police involved remotely and not the cause imho).
I could feel my hackles starting to rise reading those reports..and it's made me realise how lucky I am to be out of it now.
So the Acting Sergeant (paid as a PC, but employed as a Sergeant) is out patrolling on his own, hears of an accident with a stolen car that's hit a cyclist, sees such car...and then gets criticised for 'following' it, because he's out driving a marked police car fitted with blues/twos, but hasn't been trained to drive such a thing in an emergency..so what he's expected to do is ignore the stolen car and just radio it in...sure in the knowledge he's the only cop there anyway.
What a crock of ****.
In the old days he wouldn't be driving anything unless qualified to do so and could fulfil all the things required of him.
Why are people put in that position?...Money and/or strange priorities.
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paid as a PC, but employed as a Sergeant
Isn't an acting paid as a Sergeant then ? I thought that in general they had to be qualified to at least having passed the theory exam as well.
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Anyone can be given the rank of Acting/Temporary Sgt but generally the earliest is after they have passed Part 1 of their exams - the theory stuff.
Cant remember the exact number of days, might be 14 or 28, working days after which they can claim the pay difference but only for worked days. I stand to be corrected.
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My wife was mentioning someone she knows has just been promoted after "acting" for three years - which seems a long time.
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>> Anyone can be given the rank of Acting/Temporary Sgt but generally the earliest is after
>> they have passed Part 1 of their exams - the theory stuff.
>>
>> Cant remember the exact number of days, might be 14 or 28, working days after
>> which they can claim the pay difference but only for worked days. I stand to
>> be corrected.
>>
An 'Acting' can be anyone of the rank below, although you'd expect them to have at least some degree of maturity for the enhanced role.
A 'Temporary' has to be fully qualified to fulfil that role at that rank.
Acting gets a daily allowance. Temporary gets the salary for that enhanced rank. Acting can be for ever, Temporary has a time limit. Acting wears the insignia of their substantive rank i.e. the rank they started at. Temporary wears the insignia of the enhanced rank. Acting has to work 10 days every financial year for free, then they can claim (used to be 14 days).
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I knew you'd put some meat on the bones.
In our force acing ranks wear the insignia of the rank they are acting in.
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That was my experience in the provinces
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>> In our force acing ranks wear the insignia of the rank they are acting in.
>>
There's been some mission creep with that. Newly promoted sergeants show on the system as 'acting' whilst they're on their 12 month Work Based Assessment, (as in theory they can fail it)...yet in all other aspects are sergeants, wearing the insignia and are paid for that rank.
Things are getting confused.
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>> (Police involved remotely and not the cause imho).
Sorry if I didn't make myself clear.
The police in these situations are dammed if they do and dammed if they don't. The officer did nothing wrong but the IPCC were involved because the police were or had been "chasing" albeit almost 3/4 of a mile behind.
At the time there was a lot of comments that the police should not have been following or were chasing the Metro.
The evidence shows that the officer held back, probably because he knew he was in a residential area and Wishing Tree Road has speed humps and at that time of night it was likely to be kids as professional thieves steal valuable cars.
If he had pursued closely the accident would have happened much sooner than it did I suspect. The results would have been worse because the police officer would have been blamed - wrongly!
>>>Why are people put in that position?...Money and/or strange priorities.
Crazy situations where the book says it can be done but makes no leeway for the fact that it is humans doing the job and not machines - see the other thread re rest time for paramedics.
Last edited by: zippy on Tue 10 Jan 12 at 23:35
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>> >> (Police involved remotely and not the cause imho).
>>
>> Sorry if I didn't make myself clear.
>>
You did to me..it was just that I then read the attached reports...and it brought back some memories... and caused me to start frothing.
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My memory of last nights read was that almost every report , inference or suggestion was to nail the Old Bill. The only bit of credible substantive evidence was that the Police Car was 90 secs (sounds less than 1 1/2 minutes) and just less than a mile behind. That's a long time and a long distance! At 60MPH thats 1 1/2 mile behind. So no where near then.
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>> My memory of last nights read was that almost every report , inference or suggestion
>> was to nail the Old Bill. The only bit of credible substantive evidence was that
>> the Police Car was 90 secs (sounds less than 1 1/2 minutes) and just less
>> than a mile behind. That's a long time and a long distance! At 60MPH thats
>> 1 1/2 mile behind. So no where near then.
>>
When the concept of 'Basic Drivers*' was introduced in the early 90's, as I was a police advanced driver and driving assessor, as well as being a supervisor with a vested interest in driving safety...I was appalled at the prospect...and wrote a letter to the Met Police newspaper (The Job) slating the idea.
The Daily Mail and Evening Standard picked up on it from my published letter..and put great big articles out saying how unwise it was...and then naming me and quoting me from my letter (I nearly fell off my chair when a colleague pointed it out).
Loads of people at my end thought i'd gone native and leaked to the Press (you know, a dodgy 'Iffy' type).
* prior to this, to drive a police car an officer had to have a driving course. Since then, they can be 'check tested', told not to respond to emergency calls and/or utilise police exemptions, such as breaking the speed limit..and off they go, no training whatosever and in a vehicle fitted with all the emergency equipment
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Similar to WP in the Manchester City Police. When they introduced Panda cars in about 1967, Mk 2 Cortinas, if an officer wasn't qualified at the driving school, then, providing he had a licence, he was taken for an hour round the city by an instructor. He could only drive the Pandas after that if he'd passed.
The next test was the class three. This entitled you to drive divisional vans, plain clothes dept cars and suchlike......and Pandas of course.
None of these vehicles were fitted with sirens or blues. Drivers were not encouraged to ' go for it ', They simply weren't trained to a high enough level. Of course, if it was something exciting, like a ' PC requires assistance ' call, then all this would be forgotten and the headlight flashers and horn brought into play.
If you held a provisional licence, the class three course was sufficient to get you a pass as the police examiners could take the place of the driving test centre guys.
It seems now that every police vehicle has blues and twos and the newest qualified Panda driver is liable to get the ' Blue Mist ' now and again. There have been a couple of fatal accidents here in the last year or so when divisional Transits have jumped a red light under the so called protection of their lights and noise.........That sort of thing needs a fair amount of skill and on the spot assessment and I wonder if the officers in these cases had really had enough training.
Ted
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I've seen PCSOs driving police cars.
How qualified are they?
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>>>. So no where near then.
Knowing the area. Absolutely right. The 1 1/2 miles is seriously a different part of the town with no direct line of sight.
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It costs too much to have highly trained and continually assessed pursuit drivers. They'll be giving motorway wombles a set of blues soon and telling them to "go for it"
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Another life wasted from the same village this weekend.
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-north-west-wales-17805120
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I take it that Ceri Lyn was in the smaller vehicle.
:(
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An A Class Mercedes according to another press release...
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As RP said in his very first post this is a 30 limit although that still makes a 60 mph head on collision possible. What I did see, which surprised me a bit was the number of cars parked, not illegally, but perhaps unwisely on this A road. Perhaps they could have been a contributory factor the second accident?
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This is a new accident that happened yesterday - this one was just a couple of miles from the one in January - it was in a 50mph limit on a straight bit of road, seems the A class was on the wrong side of the road. A road I've used regularly in the last few years..
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I stand corrected RP. I tracked along the road in Google street mapping and the stretch by the named pub has street lighting and no repeaters indicating a limit of more than 30. We are talking about 2 different locations though.
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You weren't far away. Fifty there as well. I was offered some "gear" in that place once...
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>> I was offered some "gear" in that place once...
Any good was it Rob? It usually isn't when it just comes at you like that.
Them bad youth in All Saints Road were selling people small strips of black plastic dustbin wrapped in clingfilm for a tenner at one point. A Jamaican elder of my acquaintance once calculated that a whole black plastic dustbin was worth £30,000 on that basis.
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>> As RP said in his very first post this is a 30 limit although that
>> still makes a 60 mph head on collision possible.
>>
Not that old fallacy again. It's still a 30mph crash. Whether you hit a wall at 30 or a car coming the other way also at 30, the energy dissipated is the same for your vehicle. Twice as much damage is done, but half of it's done to the other vehicle.....
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Dreadful cars (the early ones) but sturdy enough I would imagine.
Amazing amount of reservoirs in that area, considering the population.
Its really crazy when you think about the population of S and E England and the number of reservoirs there.
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There's more rain up here and the English water authorities (who built them) didn't give a flying fish about any villages that happened to be in the way.
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Lyn Celyn near Bala was one which has a buried village in it. I was around there in there 60s when the dam had been built and the lake was being filled One can still see, in the North West corne,r where old road used to be, now replaced by a big loop to get round the wate.r
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That is a cracking biking road - done it on a sports bike and hit some good speeds - to heavily policed in Brunstrom's time....may have a look at that when the sun peeps out.
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>> An A Class Mercedes according to another press release...
Oh dear. My daughter has recently acquired one of those, and it certainly didn't feel tank-like to me when I drove it. But I don't think she drives on the wrong side of the road any more. And perhaps the victim was an unsecured passenger?
Bad scene, pretty young woman from her photo. Worrying to a parent and general ancestor.
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I have read the first post only. No idea except to say that I am SICK of seeing mainly, but not confined to, young to late thirties females driving (do the younger ones have ANY conception of speed/conditions)? bowling along, face down (to the right) as most people are right handed obviously texting or answering emails or on Two-Facebook. Can't prove it, but it ain't rocket science.
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R.P's theory of survival on the roads
1. Everyone should ride an underpowered bike for 12 months before getting a car licence.
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>> R.P's theory of survival on the roads
>>
>> 1. Everyone should ride an underpowered bike for 12 months before getting a car licence.
>>
As above, but substitute an underpowered bike for a motorbike with reasonable power, i.e one which can, at a push, get the pilot out of the cacky. 12 month at least. Underpowered is the route to getting run over.
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Watched a guy in a modern "executive" car two cars in front of me drive straight into a lamp post near here at 40 mph recently. He was texting or emailing. I'd noticed him doing it earlier. Fortunately for him he struck it a glancing blow and only metal was bent.
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Is your wife 10" taller than you or other way about ? - sorry I had to ask !
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Well, lets put it this way, she's 5'2". Make whatever mental picture you want...
:-)
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>> He was texting or emailing. I'd noticed him doing it earlier.
There really should be a law against that.
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"1. Everyone should ride an underpowered bike for 12 months before getting a car licence."
Damned right. And Poles should have an IQ test to achieve 100+ before they apply for a driving licence. That way I can drive anywhere around Poland without sharing the roads with them.
Neanderthals.
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That way I can drive anywhere around Poland without sharing the roads with them.
>>
please no, otherwise they'll obtain a convincing truck licence and come here..:-)
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>> That way I can drive anywhere around Poland without sharing the roads with them.
>> please no, otherwise they'll obtain a convincing truck licence and come here..:-)
>>
(too) Many already have......
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>> R.P's theory of survival on the roads
>>
>> 1. Everyone should ride an underpowered bike for 12 months before getting a car licence.
Lets be more specific. An early Lambretta. Terrible handling, appalling brakes, underpowered but ultimately fast enough to make you cack your pants when you cock it up
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Better a Vespa. That Starboard inclined engine made a mess of trying to keep the pile of crap upright or indeed straight.
Great fun on the fields though stripped of all its finery................
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>> Better a Vespa. That Starboard inclined engine made a mess of trying to keep the
>> pile of crap upright or indeed straight.
You're absolutely right there. I lost count of the number of times I came off my Vespa, but I do recall ending up in a hedge on the very first day that I owned it.
I also remember having to do an emergency stop (re MD's starboard inclined engine!) - rear of scooter went one way, I went the other.
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How I managed to survive my Lambretta GT200 and SX200 days gawd above only knows!
Hit by a Taxi in Wardour St., I hit a Taxi on Westminster Br., nearly came orf when coming around Trafalgar Sq. in the 'rush' hour one dark and wet evening (ditto on a roundabout near Waterloo Stn.) etc., etc., etc., etc., etc..
Blimmin death-traps IMO.
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>>Blimmin death-traps IMO.
Indeed. I spent a fortnight in hospital!
I'm OK now, though.
Twitch...
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An old and knackered Vespa I had was all but impossible to ride in a straight line.
Even now, I find it hard to believe a modern scooter is stable, but I suppose they must be.
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What a load of mods we have on here, let's here it for the Rockers.
Pat
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>>let's here it for the Rockers<<
Hear, hear!
:)
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rock, rocks ../
Last edited by: zookeeper on Wed 25 Apr 12 at 11:35
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Old rockers tend to have trouble hearing for themselves.
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Old rockers never die... plenty of young ones do, unfortunatly
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After the AW fiasco, I'm struggling to find any enthusiasm to post on here Dog, you just did that a world of good.
Back to the Ospreys and Def Leppard, I think
Pat
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Don't take life too seriously Pat, or you will never get out of it alive.
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I try not to Dutchie, but I always try and think the best of people, find excuses for them and lose faith in human nature when I'm wrong.
Pat
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Ospreys? they still gigging
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Am in two minds as to whether the coroner really needs to rub it in by saying the driver - had she lived - would have been charged for causing death by dangerous driving.
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>> Am in two minds as to whether the coroner really needs to rub it in
>> by saying the driver - had she lived - would have been charged for causing
>> death by dangerous driving.
Well, he's certainly sending a message to others, isn't he?
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Interesting that the headline majors on the drugs issue. The driver was THREE times over the drink drive limit.
The cocaine was neither her nor there (IMHO)
And I agree with comment above re the coroner. Is he a Doctor or a Lawyer?
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>> The cocaine was neither her nor there (IMHO)
Actually I wouldn't really agree with that Bromptonaut. Stimulants are very seductive - cocaine is quite often cut with amphetamine - and can lead to impulsive, euphoric behaviour. In combination with too much to drink it is specially dangerous to the young. They may feel they are high but straightened out, when actually they are terrifically drunk.
Of course to a lot of people the very mention of illegal drugs explains everything.
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...Is he a Doctor or a Lawyer?...
Almost always a local solicitor, although it seems to me we are moving towards 'full-time' coroners.
By saying she could have faced death by dangerous, the coroner is making no comment on the drink or drugs.
He is merely commenting on the standard of her driving which, in his opinion, was dangerous, and the driving was the cause of the death of the passenger.
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This Coroner is very experienced and has been involved in some high-profile and controversial cases, not least the death of Chief Constable of GMP - I've read the reports of many of his cases over the years, he gives measured and considered narratives. I suggest that there is a message in this one. Drug driving is a problem amongst the young, this message will be received loud and clear by her cohorts in the local community, whether they act on it is another matter. Nice kid from a nice middle-class background.
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....the local story is that a taxi driver let them down and they decided to drive home. Passing the scene the other day usual bunches of flowers etc...the wall that has killed three people over the years forms part of an old garage as a boundary marker and runs perpendicular to the road - big man sized chunk out of it now. If I was the owner I think I would have quietly removed it.
Between the white van and the road.
g.co/maps/c444t
Last edited by: VxFan on Thu 24 May 12 at 10:09
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Somebody's woken up to this today. - Meldrew
