It is clear that the number of Renaults being sold in the UK now is a far cry from days gone by. Now Renault are doing something about it by stopping imports of the Espace, Langune, Wind and passnger versions of the Kangoo and Trafic. This leaves just the Twingo, Clio, Megane and Scenic.
Blimey! We knew things were bad out there, but now we know. Who's next for the big cut-backs?
They are going to concentrate less on volume and more on profitablility, and make way for a big push for their EVs (oh dear!).
I think it's quite amazing that a company who practicaly invented the big MPV market is now leaving it to their rivals, rather than come up with a competitive replacement. And 10 years ago the Laguna sold well - now withdrawn! Of course the unreliability of the previous Laguna can't have helped.
Last edited by: VxFan on Mon 19 Dec 11 at 19:47
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>> Scenic ............>> I think it's quite amazing that a company who practicaly invented the big MPV market is now leaving it to their rivals>>
Reckon the Scenic and Grand Scenic genre must form the large majority of the market.
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Sown seeds, if something is known as a heap of trouble on the used market it will be worth peanuts if you can sell it at all.
Just desserts as far as i can see, cars and makers that have good reputations sell well and the models that replace them are bought safe in that knowledge.
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Funnily enough, the sales slumped when they started making them UGLY.
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I've never been in the market for a people carrier, but I'd assumed the Grand Scenic was now as large as the Espace used to be, and was the competitor to the S-MAX and Galaxy ? Does the Modus still exist at below the Scenic as well?
I'm even less surprised by the death of the Laguna; I agree with Z - it's just not good looking enough. You'd imagine the market for a non German mid/large sized car was pretty small, yet Citroen with the C5 - a very good looking car IMO - seem to manage OK despite what must bee similar challenges from a brand perspective
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>> And 10 years ago the Laguna sold well - now withdrawn!
It's only withdrawn because it didn't sell here. Must sell okay elsewhere. A lot of Renault cars are ugly... and therefore do not sell. Add in the (perception) of unreliability and you have yourself a problem selling them.
A neighbour has a 61 plate Laguna Estate. That's going to be worth little in 3-4 years time, so cost per mile for driving is huge because of depreciation.
Last edited by: rtj70 on Mon 19 Dec 11 at 15:31
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Answering my own question, a quick look on renault.co.uk shows a Modus, a Grand Modus, a Scenic and a Grand Scenic all sitting below the Espace. Looks to me like the Scenic / Grand Scenic have got larger, the Modus / Grand Modus slot in underneath and the Espace is now displaced from the range.
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Most reliable car I know is a 54 plate Clio. Done well over 100,000 miles, driven badly, hardly ever serviced (though it has had a new water pump and timing belt) and been in quite a few accidents. Still runs. I won't say it runs well anymore though does feel like a banger to be a passenger in.
If that is typical of Renault I would happily buy one, by my French car owning neighbours have nothing but trouble with their cars it puts me off.
The UK roads will be a duller place without so many Renaults :( But with Hyundai and Kia haven taken over the domestic mainstream market it is a very touch place to be.
They could never get the slightly premium that the likes of Ford and VW now enjoy.
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Not surprised by the Kangoo - a bit too small compared to the Partner/Berlingo.
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I think their sales failure is a warning to all manufacturers not to get complacent.
Years ago their you would see Renaults everywhere. This was in the days when Datsuns were the new kid on the block and before Hyundai, Kia, etc. And in the days when BL (Triumph/Rover) outsold the German executives handsomely. Now look!
Apart from the quality issues, and the challenging looks of the newer models, I think Renault just became complacent because their home market still lapped them up.
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>> They could never get the slightly premium that the likes of Ford and VW now
>> enjoy.
There's no premium attached to a Ford - their discounts are up there with the best (or, is that worst?) of them!! Even the new Focus is available at more than 20% off at the moment - a Megane is 'just' 17% ~ 18% off
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When I was aving a browse through the list of cars my prefered dealer had in stock quite recently,
I completely ignored all French models (4 wheeled!)
This is the man who has owned over 40 vehicles,
This is the man who has road tested over 10,000 vehicles,
This is the man who drives *A Lancer Estate*
:)
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This man Drove a Lancer Estate before you, and he liked his Laguna, a lot.
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Laguna was a lovely looking car.
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And this one has owned three Citroens, a Renault and a late 1930s Fiat. Two of the Citroens and the Renault were terrific. The other Citroen was a bad model although a very rare one (a Bijou, silly little thing for the English wives of DS owners). The Fiat was very amusing but had problems I couldn't cope with financially it being my first car.
It may have been before Dog's time, but on the HJ site I posted a verse, extemporized for the purpose, pouring scorn on this Rosbif anti-French car bigotry. The French are very ingenious, good engineers and live in a big country. They have as much claim to have invented the automobile, or developed it in excellent ways, as anyone else including us.
That verse wasn't complete rubbish either. Someone more savvy than me may be able to find it in the HJ archive. It begins:
So, you don't like French Jalopies? You think Froggy cars are carp?
Well, forgive me if I sound a little elderly and sharp,
But it's partly just a question of how long you've been alive
(And I'm a child beside a stately Renault 45)... etc
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Another vote for reaping what they have sown.
Too many years of peddling good looking (IMHO), thoughtfully designed, beautifully comfortable cars with inherent, expensive faults which fall apart as soon as the warranty expires. Too many years of treating customers with contempt, and thinking regular four figure bills are acceptable on a sub four year old family car.
I've had one Renault, and would never have another unless I got it so cheap I could afford to bin it come first sign of problems.
Some good friends of ours have a Grand Scenic the same age, spec and even colour as our old one. Had all the same problems we did, plus a chunk of new ones.
Nothing against French cars - had a couple of Pug 306s and 106s and would recommend them to anyone. But not a Renault.
Last edited by: DP on Mon 19 Dec 11 at 18:15
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Driving a C5 at the moment I often look on at the knocking of French cars and wonder how many actually have experience of them.
I think in most segments they can offer a genuine rival to any other main stream offerings, but think that Renault do lag PSA slightly in the reliability terms.
My experience of the C5 is no warranty work in 2.5 years, but 2 safety recalls. A colleague has a 12 months old megane folding roof thingy - the Bluetooth never worked properly, and in the end renault stopped offering it as an option on his model, and fitted a parrot for him instead. To be fair they did also refund him what he had paid for the system in the first place, but this was after numerous trips to the dealer. Now, due to the third party parrot system the sat nav now doesn't make the speed camera announcements. They have all but given up trying to fix it, and although my colleague still likes the car this irritation has stopped him ordering a new clio for his wife as an xmas present.
I can easily see how these small iriitations jade your future motoring choice, and the Laguna and Espace both blotted their copy books.
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Just read the article in the Telegraph - appears that all models will now come with 4 years/100K warranty, 4 years/48K servicing, 4 years roadside assistance, and some kind of 4 year finance pacakage.
Call me cynical, but have they removed just sorted the wheat from the chaff......
Apparently all 5 models being axed account for less than 10% of UK sales
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And all Fords are pretty?
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Gimme a Dauphine or a 4 any day. (0:0)
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>>yet Citroen with the C5 - a very good looking car IMO - seem to manage OK
couldn't tell you the last time I saw a Citroen C5 on the road!
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Renault do offer a mind bending variety of cars with so many spec variations, its no real suprise they want to streamline what they do, gotta make money and small cars and MPVs are the only things they do right and thus they sell.
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>>This is the man who has owned over 40 vehicles,
This is the man who has road tested over 10,000 vehicles,
This is the man who drives *A Lancer Estate*<<
That was meant to be a joke BTW - remember the advert "What does the man who looks after Big Ben wear"?
This is a Citizen watch.
Anyways, I'm quite fond of French models (and a few of their cars) but I can only speak from having owned Citroen, Renault and ugly Pugs, and from that experience (and that of others in my family) I choose to avoid them.
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>> >>yet Citroen with the C5 - a very good looking car IMO - seem to
>> manage OK
>>
>> couldn't tell you the last time I saw a Citroen C5 on the road!
>>
Quite a few around here - neighbour a few doors down has one, probably see 4 or 5 others regularly in our small town, and a further 4 or so in the staff car park at work.
Thinking about it they are almost as popular as Mondeos at work. Had a quick Google and cant find the actual model by model registration numbers
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>> couldn't tell you the last time I saw a Citroen C5 on the road!
>>
I definitely see more new/newish C5s, both saloons and estates, than Mondeos locally. Mind you , I see more Insignias than C5s. The only Mondeos round our way are taxis, and even then I think Skodas probably outnumber them!
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Good point Peter - the local hire car fleets are awash with Vauxhall stuff.
We have a corporate contract with Europcar and its a job to not get a VX car now. They have loads of 1.8 petrol insignias which are very unpopular, so much so that some of my colleagues book a lower group car to avoid them
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5 year warranty on Renaults here in Sweden, plus £3000 scrapper trade-in value.
The tag at the end of the TV advert says 'Quality Built'.
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For me, the last desirable cars Renault built were the 16TX and 30TX, which was a while ago.
I've recently driven some Megane derivatives as rental cars, including something called a Fluence which is a sort of Megane based Ford Orion and for which I couldn't find a single reason why anyone would buy one.
I also had a folding roof Megane which was ok with the roof up, but redefined "scuttle shake" when in roof down mode.
Best of the bunch was a Megane Coupe with a revvy 180PS petrol engine. Quite nice looking and great handling at the expense of a truly dreadful ride, also zero rearward vision made parking interesting.
All of them had interiors which looked like they were made of yoghurt containers. I can't believe Renault get this so wrong - even Hyundais these days have decent interiors. It's the first thing a customer looks at when they go into a showroom.
Contrast this with the appealing products offered by Citroen. The C4 is a real alternative to the Golf, nice looking, nice to drive, nice interior. C5 is a cracker, especially the V6 Biturbo.
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A work colleague recently sold his petrol '06 Clio for a huge loss after 3 years of ownership. The problems he had with it were too many to mention. He inherited a '54 Laguna 1.9 diesel estate and his woes continue.
He says it has put him off Renault for life. Just as my 5TS & 5 Gordini did many years ago. Such a shame as I am sure they are mostly reliable, but neither of us will take a chance with a third Renault in our lives.
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I don't think anyone has mentioned the right hand drive situation, how many Renault's are sold in Japan, Australia, New Zealand etc?
So they need economies of scale in RHD prodiction and the UK/Eire market alone isn't delivering?
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Renault are pretty much dead in the water in NZ, and I think it's a similar story in Oz.
The Megane is pitched against the Golf and mighty Corolla here, and doesn't have a chance. Their only other model here is the Koleos - yuk?! (Although assembled by Nissan in Japan IIRC).
Peugeot and Citroen fare a little better, but are still very much niche players. Peugeot are starting to price more keenly however, which may help...
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Don't see many Renaults in Hong Kong, but the place is perhaps the most extreme example of goods being purchased for brand image I've encountered. There are a few niche models like the Megane RS Cup running around but that's it.
I saw a Clio RS Cup when I was in Sydney recently so I guess they've some sales in Australia ?
I've never had a Renault, I nearly bought an Espace in 2004 but one of my colleagues regaled me with the catalogue of problems he'd suffered on his so I decided not to risk it, a friend then had a similar vintage Scenic and that had many expensive electrical / electronic problems IIRC.
However, it should be remembered that Nissan still manufacture and sell many related models in the UK - e.g. isn't the Note ostensibly a Modus ?
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>>However, it should be remembered that Nissan still manufacture and sell many related models in the UK - e.g. isn't the Note ostensibly a Modus ? <<
And yet one hears so very little about how unreliable the Modus is. With Renault it always seems the larger and more button infested the dashboard is, the worse the reputation, although I had a customer with a Megane and on asking if it was reliable, she made comment along the lines of 'it still starts atleast'.
The Clio and the Twingo see, to be where Renault really gets it right although all things are relative ( my neighbours has arrived home on low-loader more than once ).
Th funniest thing for me is how the Renault infection has spread to Nissan, rather than the other way around.
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>> For me, the last desirable cars Renault built were the 16TX and 30TX, which was
>> a while ago.
>>
I worked at a Renault dealership around that time (early 1980's). The 12 and 16 had just gone out of production, replaced by the ugly and short-lived 14 and the 18 (which if it had been less prone to tinworm wouldn't have been a bad car at all) and the under-powered but luxurious 20. I drove a 30TX a few times, a real "gentleman's" car; had a 16 TS myself for a year or so.
Styling-wise they were quite handsome, apart from the 14; the Fuego in particular was a beautiful-looking car which sadly didn't provide performance to match its skin.
I'd say the 12 was probably one of the best Renaults, a much nicer car than the Escort which effectively was its rival. One thing they all suffered from was a less-than-precise gearchange, made worse by the rubber bushes which were prone to failure in extremely cold weather.
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...I'd say the 12 was probably one of the best Renaults...
Rode, drove and handled well.
As you say, it slaughtered the competition at the time, the Escort, and in particular, the Marina.
Another Renault I liked was the 9 - neat, small saloon.
The early 80s was when Renault had what I think was its biggest ever market share - touching five percent.
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I drove a 12 for a while in the late 70s - it was a solidly made car that drove and importantly rode well compared to the carts the UK were producing.
I wonder if the withdrawal from the UK has something to do with the cost of RHD conversion ?
Last edited by: R.P. on Tue 20 Dec 11 at 10:41
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No-one has commented on the dealer network...
Round Stoke there are a few small privately owned Renault dealers. It is difficult to see how they can cope with the technical range of models. I suspect many may be out of their depth on some of the more complex issues.
Renault are cutting approx 1/3rd of dealers.. which says a lot : too many small ones.
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>> No-one has commented on the dealer network...
>>
Apparently they are closing many of the larger Renault-owned city centre dealerships to save more money. I guess this willl include the massive Renault West London in Acton, where they used to assemble Dauphines many moons ago. Whenever I went there I was always amazed that a garage so big could be so quiet.
When they first said they were going to focus on EVs I feared for their future, and the lack of investment in main-stream models as a result of the EV investment seems to be bearing (rotten) fruit.
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>> I wonder if the withdrawal from the UK has something to do with the cost of RHD conversion ?
I could see that for future models but the ones being axed had the development work already done. So I'm not sure that argument holds.
I wonder what the sales figures have been like recently. Anyone checked?
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Take a look at howmanyleft.co.uk and search on Laguna. Then select combined statistics.... then click for the New Registrations graph.
... I think the downward curve tells a lot of the story. I think VW sold as many Passat CC (a niche car) in 2010 as Renault sold Lagunas (the equivalent of a Passat).
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>> Take a look at howmanyleft.co.uk and search on Laguna. Then select combined statistics.... then click
>> for the New Registrations graph.
>>
ooh that's a handy function. Just did the same for the Espace, same trend.
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30,000 to 3,000 in just 8 years - says it all.
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Well, out of interest I tweeted Citroen UK to ask how many C5's have been sold. Didn't really expect an answer, and in fact expected to be told its commercially sensitive, but to my surprise (and their credit) they came back and told me that over 15,000 of the new model have been registered in the UK.
Mondeo appears to have sold around 100K in the same period
Espace managed 504 in the last year compared with the galaxy which managed 7392 in the same period
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>> Espace managed 504 in the last year compared with the galaxy which managed 7392 in
>> the same period
>>
Plus another 12,000 S-Maxes last year. Total large Ford MPV sales are almost 20,000, against which Renault managed only 504 Espaces in a section of the market that they created. As recently as 2005 Renault sold nearly 4,000 Espaces. I suppose the Grand Scenic is partly repsonsible for this drop, but having been in both the G-Scenic is a fair bit smaller. Ford also has its own Grand C-Max as a rival for the Galaxy and S-Max.
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>> Another Renault I liked was the 9 - neat, small saloon.
>>
I was in the showroom of GT Cars in Nottingham when the first 9 arrived there. Looked round it; as you say not a bad looking little car and in common with most Renaults of the era, reasonably well appointed.
Happened to lean on the front wing whilst talking to our sales manager, and it gave way under me; not rust of course but the metal was paper-thin, a fact I'd noticed when putting parts away. Didn't seem to make the car any more prone to rot (you still see the odd one about) but it did put me off a bit.
Strangely enough, the one new Renault of that era which I did think might sink without trace - the Trafic van - carried on for years, along with its bigger Master brother. In fact I'd go as far as to say they were a quantum leap in van design. Mind you, Renault light commercials were by no means the worst, the little 4 Fourgon with its useful "hatch" above the rear doors was deservedly popular. Once you'd mastered the push-pull gearchange, and got used to the fact that the handbrake worked on the front wheels, they were good fun to drive.
Last edited by: Harleyman on Tue 20 Dec 11 at 20:46
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Local dealer in our town shut up shop a few weeks back - they have 2 locations - one a skoda dealer and the other renault.
They have moved the renault dealership to the same location as skoda. Wonder if they had a heads up?
I would have thought that their dealership was profitable - lots of little old ladies buying a new clio every couple of years and yummy mummies in new scenics
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noticed this morning that my local renault dealer has closed shop. was a good position i thought in a line with ford, jaguar and aston martin as neighbours
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...with ford, jaguar and aston martin as neighbours...
Might have suffered a little in comparison.
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Our local dealer started selling Kia as well a couple of years ago, perhaps a wise move. Though while a few Renault's would appeal no current Kias do.
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Kia or Renault? That's a tough choice
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Cant think of a Kia that I would prefer over the equvilent Renault ...
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>> Cant think of a Kia that I would prefer over the equvilent Renault ...
Although the Kia Cee'd wouldn't be my first choice as compact hatchback, I would definitely taken one in preferance to a Megane. Also take a Pro cee'd rather than a Megane Coupe, despite the crap name.
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Kia Optima looks like it might be interesting. The seven year warranty might shake Ford into offering more given that the insignia now has the new lifetime warranty. Makers the Mondeo 3 yr/60K look stingy
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If a certain Renault dealer goes mammaries up I will dance a celebratory jig around the smouldering commercial ashes of their pathetic excuse for a service based business.
Not that I'm without sympathy you understand...
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Can't say I've liked any Renault that much since the Twingo first appeared back in 1992 (?). Thought that it looked really funky and modern. I had a Renault 5 Campus back then, also a fun wee car, all the better for being the base model. Ah memories!
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Wouldn't care if Renault didn't sell anything in the UK at all. The reasons that I don't like them are:
Flakey Design
Reliability issues
Electric Gremlins
Nondescript interiors
Carp Dealers
Horrendous Depreciation
And if you put all those together, you get a seventh reason. ;-)
Last edited by: Londoner on Thu 22 Dec 11 at 00:51
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Even to the neutral bystander, it's fair to say that there are plenty of obvious reasons why KIA/Hyundai have run rings round them the past couple of years.
What's the betting Renault will be merged into PSA as a last ditch attempt to protect French jobs by the French Government in 2012/13..?!
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>> Even to the neutral bystander, it's fair to say that there are plenty of obvious
>> reasons why KIA/Hyundai have run rings round them the past couple of years.
>>
I'd take a Renault any day, at least they have character.
>> What's the betting Renault will be merged into PSA as a last ditch attempt to protect French jobs by the French Government in 2012/13..?!
>>
I would guess that Renault are bigger than PSA internationally with there part ownership of Nissan etc.
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>> I'd take a Renault any day, at least they have character.
>>
Me too.
Renault won't merge with PSA. One is effectively state owned, the other is a private company, plus there is too much overlap in the product, and would require big redundancies, which the unions wouldn't wear.
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>> I would guess that Renault are bigger than PSA internationally with there part ownership of
>> Nissan etc.
>>
>>
PSA group sales of 3,188,000 units
Renault group sales of 3,195,810
7,276,398 vehicles sold worldwide by Renault and Nissan in 2010
Interestingly though PSA's revenue for 2010 is 56.1 billion, but Renaults is 38.9 billion - not sure why the big difference
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Just shows how much Renault have had to discount!
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>> Interestingly though PSA's revenue for 2010 is 56.1 billion, but Renaults is 38.9 billion -not sure why the big difference
>>
Engine collaborations with Ford and BMW.
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>> >> Interestingly though PSA's revenue for 2010 is 56.1 billion, but Renaults is 38.9 billion
>> -not sure why the big difference
>> >>
>> Engine collaborations with Ford and BMW.
>>
And Daimler-Benz.......
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and ultra cheap Dacias....
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Renault's warranty claims are deducted from Turnover...
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...and ultra cheap Dacias...
I've seen a couple of newish-looking Dacias recently.
One was a hatchback, and the other a Berlingo-type glass van.
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Actually, on reflection, if they need any help, I've got an axe...
I could do the Espaces for them. Be my pleasure.
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Renault axes model lin-up - Hard Cheese
