| Motoring Discussion > Is there an age limit for truck driving? | Miscellaneous |
| Thread Author: henry k | Replies: 30 |
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New Fri 28 Oct 11 23:17
Is there an age limit for truck driving? - henry k
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www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-oxfordshire-15493561 A 74-year-old cement mixer lorry driver has been arrested after a fatal collision. |
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New Sat 29 Oct 11 00:03
Is there an age limit for truck driving? - Dave_
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Before being granted a provisional LGV licence, a driver has to submit to a very thorough medical... One which I can't pass as I don't have good enough binocular vision, hence why I can only drive up to 7.5t vehicles. LGV drivers have to pass the medical again at age 45, 50, 55, 60 and annually thereafter IIRC. Of course the onus is on the driver to advise the DVLA if any relevant medical condition should occur in between times. A 7.5t driver I used to work with had to give it up at the age of 85 - because the company's insurance would no longer cover him. He was as fit as a fiddle, never put a wheel wrong and could have passed for early 60s. |
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New Sat 29 Oct 11 00:18
Is there an age limit for truck driving? - -
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As Dave's post. My own opinion is that you'll see an increasing number of older drivers at the helm, not much young blood coming into the job, it's still hard and precise work in many parts of the industry. On the other hand they've reduced the age restriction to 18 at the other end... I'll use this thread to pass on something i learned only last week...leaner HGV drivers no longer have to perform a controlled emergency stop, or prove they can go from crawler to top gear and back down to crawler. Even better they are now taught eurosafe driving standard, which is a contradiction in terms if ever i heard it...brakes to slow and gears to go...no using the vehicles engine power to reduce speed by going down the gears approaching anything, use the brakes and block change down as necessary when the junction is reached...do i need to explain why this is ludicrous, no thought not. happy motoring..;) Last edited by: gordonbennet on Sat 29 Oct 11 at 00:18
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New Sat 29 Oct 11 05:25
Is there an age limit for truck driving? - Pat
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>>I'll use this thread to pass on something i learned only last week...leaner HGV drivers no longer have to perform a controlled emergency stop, or prove they can go from crawler to top gear and back down to crawler.<< >>do i need to explain why this is ludicrous, no thought not.<< My viewpoint differs on this one and I'm pleased to see lorry driving taught in line with the modern machinery being used and not clinging on to outdated practises that, for the greater majority of lorries, no longer apply. First the emergency stop: Most non HGV drivers reading that will throw their hands up in horror. Lorry drivers NOT being taught to do an emergency stop? Remember your car test, we were all taught to do one and passed our car tests doing emergency stops. The principle is no different and since you can't drive a lorry without first passing a car test, why go over the same ground twice? Gear change exercise: The vast majority of lorries are now fully or semi automatic whether we like it or not. Personally like GB, I hate them, but and it pains me to say this.... The reason I hate them is that I feel affronted that a gearbox manufacturer thinks they know more about changing gear than I do:) That's honesty for you. If a driver has been trained properly by the manufacturer of the gearbox in question (there are many different types) it is possible to make the auto/semi gearbox do exactly as you want it to, when you want it to. I never wanted to admit that when I was driving for the reason given above, but privately I would use the training given to me, and it worked.....it didn't help my sense of pride though:) Brakes to slow and gears to go: Again, after all those years driving the 'proper' way as GB says above, I could never drive this way BUT, once again it does work with fuel consumption and the facts prove this. Auto boxes and a change in driving habits are here to stay, along with the need to reduce emissions and be fuel efficient, so no matter how much we kick against change, we have to embrace it with an open mind. GB and I remember the days of trying to get a fully freighted lorry up the heads of the valleys without stalling....that needed our skills, sadly all it needs now is an auto box, a bigger engine and an auto pilot to steer it. It's called progress, long may it continue! Pat |
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New Sat 29 Oct 11 10:02
Is there an age limit for truck driving? - Iffy
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Speaking of gearboxes, a bus company owner told me most service buses are auto, but long distance coaches are still mostly manual. The big service bus operators offer to help a prospective driver get his licence, but it's only on autos. That's fine as far as it goes, but when the driver wants to move on, he finds he's not qualified to drive most coaches. They call the auto-only drivers 'stick drivers'. |
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New Sat 29 Oct 11 10:36
Is there an age limit for truck driving? - teabelly
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Shouldn't the auto only ones be called non-stick?! |
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New Sat 29 Oct 11 10:40
Is there an age limit for truck driving? - Iffy
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...Shouldn't the auto only ones be called non-stick?!... I suspect the reason is the auto shifter is just a stubby electrical switch/stick mounted wherever is convenient, but the manual is a longer stick directly connected to the gearbox. But hey, a stick's a stick. |
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New Sat 29 Oct 11 10:54
Is there an age limit for truck driving? - Zero
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>> Shouldn't the auto only ones be called non-stick?! Frying pan drivers? |
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New Sat 29 Oct 11 12:13
Is there an age limit for truck driving? - njgleeds
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| We always knew them as two pedal jockeys... |
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New Sat 29 Oct 11 13:12
Is there an age limit for truck driving? - -
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I have to answer Pat's pertinent post. The reason lorry drivers were taught to drive in a certain way for many years was because it worked, they were taught to be in total control of a truck at all times, the right gear for the right speed which means when something goes wrong, which it will at some point the driver has far more chance of bringing the vehicle to a safe controlled stop, whatever has caused this problem. Emergency stop in a truck especially an artic in the wet is not the same as proving you can do one in a supermini on your car test. All sorts of things happen, the modern truck will have ABS but it doesn't work instantly in a pulsing way that a car does, air pressure can't apply and release brakes so quickly. Despite ABS there is still the possibility of the vehicle starting a jack knife if the drive axle should lock even momentarily, if the trailer locks up the trailer will start to drift to one side, it's not a regular thing like yesteryear but vehicles do strange things during their service lives. The controlled stop still has valid feedback for a skilled examiner to judge a driver's feel for control. Most new trucks are auto or semi auto, almost all being an automated manual of some sort, every one that i've driven has had the option of manual override. There are times when manual control will be needed, steep hill start indeed very steep hill climbing fully loaded, sometimes the auto cannot cope and speed will fall quicker than the auto can respond requiring a block change down of 3 or more gears to cope with the quickly reducing speed as the vehicle tackles a hill. Only two weeks ago i had a manoeuvering episode where every time i went to pull away the vehicle immediately tried to upchange to second before the truck had got any momentum, the 440hp engine not having the power to pull the 3 axles round in second which it wanted to be in. I had to stop, select manual crawler and force it round before i could resume normal driving, before that the trailer tyres just pulled it back to it's starting point. This same vehicle type i have to take to a very old factory, which means raising the supension all round for clearance and after a tight climbing turn into their gateway i have to tight jack knife it 180' then come back out the entrance gate heading the wrong way up the one way street to get the back end round for the tipping point between telephone lines all this at 44 tons gross. The automated manual box is not suitable for close work like this and this particular delivery is what a novice driver trained the new way might have to cope with, without manual override the box would overheat and shut down for up to an hour...which has happened twice to me with this make of vehicle before now when i've required some work from it, once in snow. These gearboxes are far from perfect, indeed apart from Volvo, who's system is as as good as i've found, they do the same as car automanuals, they hesitate and select an inappropriate gear regularly, causing loss of momentum and excessive revs in equal measure at junctions. Again IMO an examiner should see that a driver has the wit to match engine and road speed through the gears from crawler to top and back down again. Proper use of gears is important. Whatever gearbox is fitted to a modern truck the vehicle will have some form of engine retarder, why are these fitted? To use the power of the engine in reverse to slow the vehicle down, this does two things. One it saves the waste of wearing the vehicles brakes out during normal deceleration, though usually used as a combination with lighter braking to bring the speed down in the most economical and safest way. A truck gearbox is not like a modern car box, they are built for heavy use, the retarder is programmed on an automated manual box to work on every gear until right down to walking speeds when use would be futile and uncomfortable, on some indeed most automated manual gearboxes during braking the vehicle will downchange automatically as you brake, the retarder will be working continually assuming it's turned on. Some are better than others, Volvo's retarder is one of the best imo, being equal to a proper Jacob brake in effort, some others produce little braking but sound good..;) Notice though that the manufacturers want their vehicles to downchange as the vehicle slows, so why are the DSA teaching new drivers not to do this on instruction in manual vehicles, with an examniner to judge whether they have mastered it enough to allow them out. Now we come to brake heat and safety. On a test route with the empty vehicle the chances of descending a very steep hill is virtually nill, similarly there won't be a comparable hill start, this is fair enough but it wouldn't hurt. Two weeks after passing the test the new driver can be fully freighted in the Derbyshire Dales or similar where they will encounter such arduous driving conditions. Descending a long hill will heat the brakes up to astonishing levels, they can take it far better than vehicles of yore but the weights have increased massively too. The point of keeping the brakes as cool as possible is not to save them it's primarily for safety.. Scenario...half a mile steep descent with a bend or junction at the bottom, truck descending at controlled speed, something unforseen happens on the road a few hundred yards before the junction. Driver A has been using the brakes and not fully utilising his gears and engine braking, his brakes are overheated badly. Driver B has been using the engine braking to it's full extent, keeping the revs high for maximum retarding and using the gears appropriately. Driver B's brakes are considerably cooler and the now panic stop has a better chance of succeeding. Driver B has kept something in hand for an emergency. Now the unthinkable happens, the yellow service brake air line decides to burst, Driver A's brakes are already overheating, he hasn't got a hope in hell, someone is going to get hurt. Driver B's brakes are considerably cooler, he stands a far better chance of stopping as his brakes are cooler and he is already in the appropriate gear to provide maximum retard. This is just the safety aspect and not touching on overall vehicle costings which will be obvious. By the way i'll just remind you, not so many years ago British trucks had 3 line braking systems, in the event of a yellow service brake line failure 'tween truck and trailer the driver would use the independent secondary brake handle, the ''dead man'', to brake the trailer, which also applied the tractor front axle only...this helped to alleviate jack knife situations too. In the scenario above driver B would probably have been using the dead man or if he had a Scania of old the trailer brake combined with the engine retarder and kept his tractor brakes almost unused...just in case. Since harmonisation with our european partners this auxilliary braking system has disappeared and there is no secondary braking system to a trailer any more. Sorry to have gone on so long, but we have thrown the baby out with the bath water with this new method. Things do go wrong, not everything is perfect out there, someone taught to handle a vehicle properly has a far better chance of being in control should something dreadful happen. phew..;) |
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New Sat 29 Oct 11 13:22
Is there an age limit for truck driving? - R.P.
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| Thanks gb, excellent post - learnt quite a bit from that. |
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New Sat 29 Oct 11 13:44
Is there an age limit for truck driving? - -
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Thanks RP, i don't know all the answers and there's so much more that could be written. such as when not to use the retarder, in very slippery conditions with an empty vehicle especially a solo tractor unit the retarder can actually lock the drive axle up, A Bad Thing..;) It all boils down to IMO there is still much to be said for seat of the pants feel in truck driving, and teaching drivers to be able to cope with the worse scenario's is better for them and ultimately the rest of us. When i taught transporters i used to have them load the biggest most awkward headache combinations of vehicles that it was possible to get on a truck, my thought's being that once they are on their own they will not come across worse for it will simply not fit on, so they went out on their own competent in their own minds too. |
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New Sat 29 Oct 11 14:12
Is there an age limit for truck driving? - Harleyman
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There is one anomaly with the upper age limit on a vocational licence which will need reviewing. At present, an HGV driver has to take a medical every five years after age 45, up to age 65 when it becomes an annual requirement. This has been the case for more years than I care to count, and is IMO in need of reviewing for two reasons. Firstly, projected lifespan has increased by about fifteen years since that regulation was introduced, and an average healthy male can expect to live to late 70's/early 80's without too much bother. Our active lifespan projection has increased proportionately too. Secondly, it will not be long before the majority of us have to work longer before retiring; I have already accepted that I may well continue to age 70 before contemplating retirement. If I'm still capable of doing that job then I don't see why I should have to undergo increased medical surveillance which could well jeopardise my employment due to increased costs to my employer. I personally do not think that increasing the age limit to 70 is unreasonable given what I've said above, but I'll bet my bottom dollar that this being the UK it'll go the other way, and HGV drivers will end up having an annual medical from age 50 "just in case we get sued". Cynical....... moi? |
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New Sat 29 Oct 11 17:02
Is there an age limit for truck driving? - Zero
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>> At present, an HGV driver has to take a medical every five years after age >> 45, up to age 65 when it becomes an annual requirement. This has been the >> case for more years than I care to count, and is IMO in need of >> reviewing for two reasons. I see no reason to review it. Ok sure we are living longer, but most people are outliving their sell by date, mostly with impaired mental faculties. I don't want anyone driving a lorry (or bus or coach) past 65 years of age without an annual check up, and it should be applied to car drivers as well. |
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New Sat 29 Oct 11 14:32
Is there an age limit for truck driving? - Manatee
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You undersell it GB. 44 tonnes is 48.5 tons ;-) Has anybody ever made a brake that can't be overheated? In the end you have a maximum of 12 of them to stop up to 44 tonnes. In 1972 (IIRC) I worked for the contractor building the J25-23 section of the M62. One day a lorry, a loaded 8 wheel tipper I think, ran away down this hill a few miles away. g.co/maps/ytj4k You can see the arrester bed now. The lorry ran through the traffic lights at the bottom and into a shop on the other side of the cross roads. People were killed. We took a lorry load of Acro jacks and timber to shore up the building. This is the approach today - g.co/maps/28qb5 with a sign saying "Low Gear Now". Would an instructor today tell you to ignore that? One thing that occurs to me is that when picking up and dropping different trailers, you can never really know your vehicle can you? Presumably some trailers' brake condition is better than others? Last edited by: Manatee on Sat 29 Oct 11 at 14:34
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New Sat 29 Oct 11 15:34
Is there an age limit for truck driving? - -
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That's a sad tale indeed MT, and tends to be ignored at peril by those who rely on modern improvements, welcome though they are, things can and do go wrong. In fact is it the case we who drive cars do so in a manner that necessitates the fantastic brakes of today, which is fine until something goes wrong then it isn't. I've just driven down that hill in the google streetview, it doesn't look much does it except when you realise how many jumps you've made to get to the traffic lights, must be half a mile or more constant descent. Am i right in thinking many of the escape lanes have been removed, i don't think the one at the bottom of the steep hill leading down to Hemel roundabout is still there, but could be wrong. |
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New Sat 29 Oct 11 16:46
Is there an age limit for truck driving? - Manatee
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No it doesn't look much and the hill proper is probably less than half a mile, but the steepest bit is at the bottom almost to the lights so if you're not under control by the last 200 yards or so there's no hope for it. I'll have a look for the Hemel one next week. I hadn't noticed if it had gone, though I don't pass it very day. Last time I noticed it, somebody had definitely been in it! |
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New Sun 30 Oct 11 21:49
Is there an age limit for truck driving? - PeterEA
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| Manatee, 44 tonnes is approximately 43.3 UK tons. 48.5 is the figure for US so called short tons. |
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New Sun 30 Oct 11 22:30
Is there an age limit for truck driving? - Manatee
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>> Manatee, 44 tonnes is approximately 43.3 UK tons. 48.5 is the figure for US so >> called short tons. You're right of course, thank you for the correction. I should have converted 2240lbs instead of trusting to Google. Apologies for the nonsense. |
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New Sat 29 Oct 11 17:28
Is there an age limit for truck driving? - Pat
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I knew that would get you going:) I totally agree with your points about ability to stop an artic safely, however that isn't what used to be asked of you in the HGV test. It was a true emergency stop, exactly the same as in a car. All professional lorry drivers should be able to do a controlled emergency stop because it should always be a 'prepared' stop if sufficient forward planning is used. In a true emergency stop, without any warning then the actions of lorry/car/bike or even train driver will be instinctive and automatic, and controlling the trailer and the load will be secondary. Almost all trailers these days are on disc brakes and being ventilated, the risks of overheating are far, far less than they used to be. This was never taught as part of HGV training or the test anyway, it was always something we all remember as 'experience, peppered with a touch of common sense' The answer to tight manoeuvres in an auto, GB, is to lock it in bottom gear and concentrate on the steering. It doesn't take too many embarrassing situations to realise that is the only way to avoid the problem. A lot of what you advocate above would be classified as advanced driving (or years of experience). Just how high do you set the bar for new HGV drivers wishing to embark upon a career? How high would the cost of training and the test be for that? The DVLA may well have dropped the items you take issue with but it should be mentioned that they have been replaced with a comprehensive test on securing loads using either ratchet straps, ropes, chains and tensioners or fridge bars. Bearing in mind the amount of 'shed loads' we have on our roads on a daily basis this can only be a good move. Pat |
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New Sat 29 Oct 11 19:23
Is there an age limit for truck driving? - PhilW
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Thanks gb and pda - very interesting and informative posts and well worth reading (and not just once!) - I've learnt a lot from what you say- thanks for taking the time to compose them. PhilW |
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New Sat 29 Oct 11 20:45
Is there an age limit for truck driving? - Bromptonaut
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>> Thanks gb and pda - very interesting and informative posts and well worth reading (and >> not just once!) - I've learnt a lot from what you say- thanks for taking >> the time to compose them. >> PhilW +1 with knobs on; input from profesional road users is a huge positive for sites like this. I'm really sorry that the armchair warriors drove mlc and westpig away. Didn't agree with WP on life in general but an insider's reports on how plod is forced to work is massively educational. |
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New Sun 30 Oct 11 11:27
Is there an age limit for truck driving? - Iffy
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...I'm really sorry that the armchair warriors drove mlc and westpig away... No one drove anyone away - their choice. Anyway, I think Westpig is still with us. |
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New Sat 29 Oct 11 19:45
Is there an age limit for truck driving? - Dave_
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>> The answer to tight manoeuvres in an auto, GB, is to lock it in bottom gear and concentrate on the steering Absolutely, when I was shunting the big'uns around my old employer's yard I would use the D(m) setting* - which stood for Drive (manoeuvre) I think. The effect was to keep it in 1st gear and hold the revs below about 1200 (from an 800rpm idle), it took ages to get anywhere but meant it was very controllable and didn't rock and jolt about so much. I was out in the S Wales valleys this week in an Iveco Cargo 7.5t auto with an exhaust brake - the latter came in very useful on three or four 1-mile long descents. The trouble with its automated manual 'box was that as soon as I touched the brake pedal it would change down a gear - a process which took 3 or 4 seconds. The service brakes weren't all that, so the outcome was: Press brake, instant downchange so no engine braking for 3sec, engage 5th gear plus exhaust brake so 2x the deceleration, then another gearchange with complete lack of engine braking again, then harsh deceleration in 4th, then coast during another downchange and so on. Very jerky to slow down in, and quite tricky to predict the lorry's final stopping position on the road as the exhaust brake effect became stronger in the lower gears. I appreciate (as GB says above) that with time I could learn my way around its quirks, but having driven 2000km+ in it over the last couple of weeks I'd still be embarassed to give someone a lift, because of the fragmented nature of its progress through traffic. *Mid-00's MAN TGAs with D(m), D, N, R, R(m) positions on the gear selector. I feel like I should be posting this on the PDA forum, but I think I'd be telling them something they already know over there :( Last edited by: Dave_TDCi on Sat 29 Oct 11 at 19:46
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New Sat 29 Oct 11 22:46
Is there an age limit for truck driving? - -
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That truck sounds a barrel of laughs Dave, did it have manual override and did it help at all? I had to use the same make's artics earlier in the year. They have a hill hold facility which is great unfortunately when you come to an uphill junction the automated manual takes so long to re-engage that the hill hold releases before the transmission can take up drive...ho ho very clever. The same truck you have to tilt the cab to put engine oil in which it drinks, assuming the electronic dipstick is telling the truth. Don't go looking for a gear selector either it's three normal switches up on the dash for D N R, press once or twice for A or M, there that's clear as mud innit..;). Doesn't matter though, you don't go too far as you spend half the day checking the truck to see if the numerous false alarms on the dash actually translate to a problem. barge pole. |
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New Sun 30 Oct 11 08:22
Is there an age limit for truck driving? - Pat
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Dave, just a thought... If there's a manual gear selector in there somewhere (which I think there is), try taking the down change before applying the brakes. That should smooth progress out a little bit and improve your chances of stopping for female hitchhikers:) Pat PS: IVECO = It Vibrates Everything Comes Off Unofficially = Ignore all warning lights to make any progress!! Last edited by: pda on Sun 30 Oct 11 at 08:26
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New Sun 30 Oct 11 12:47
Is there an age limit for truck driving? - Dave_
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If I downchange from 6th to 5th at above about 70km/h without braking straightaway, it changes straight back up to 6th again! The gearchange points seem to be set with economy in mind rather than aiming at making progress on the road (my figure of 19.9mpg brim-to-brim would bear this out). If I keep my foot planted on the kickdown button, the acceleration from rest is more sprightly, but again with yawning great gaps during the changes in ratio (and some wheelspin away from the lights in the wet!). The gearbox programming is probably OK for an artic but it simply isn't suited to a 180bhp puddle-jumper, especially when not carrying much weight. As GB says if you press D again it toggles between "Auto" and "Semi", which allows manual changes using the right-hand column stalk. As with most AMs though, it will still change gear when it thinks you should have done, and invariably won't when you want it to - it left me screaming away in 1st halfway through a right turn across a dual carriageway at one point :( I'm sure the auto 'box provides benefits in running costs, clutch wear etc but the fact is I can't drive it as smoothly as I can a manual. |
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New Sun 30 Oct 11 20:09
Is there an age limit for truck driving? - Dave_
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PS I looked up Scania, it said Swedish Carp, Always Needs Immediate Attention... I don't believe everything I read on the internet ;) |
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New Mon 31 Oct 11 11:40
Is there an age limit for truck driving? - Kithmo
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>> I'll use this thread to pass on something i learned only last week...leaner HGV drivers >> no longer have to perform a controlled emergency stop, or prove they can go from >> crawler to top gear and back down to crawler. >> >> Even better they are now taught eurosafe driving standard, which is a contradiction in terms >> if ever i heard it...brakes to slow and gears to go...no using the vehicles engine >> power to reduce speed by going down the gears approaching anything, use the brakes and >> block change down as necessary when the junction is reached...do i need to explain why >> this is ludicrous, no thought not. There's no wonder they don't like to stop/give way at roundabouts and come thundering on then. Last edited by: Kithmo on Mon 31 Oct 11 at 11:41
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New Mon 31 Oct 11 15:56
Is there an age limit for truck driving? - -
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>> There's no wonder they don't like to stop/give way at roundabouts and come thundering on then. >> Sometimes i daresay you get that impression and it might be the case of bullish driving in a tiny minority of cases, unfortunately driving standards in a big vehicle sticks out like a sore thumb where similar in a car would only affect one or two and remain unseen by the dozens who will observe the truck even if unaffected themselves. The problem with these automated manual boxes is they will hesitate and select an inappropriate gear more often than not at junctions roundabouts etc, so you have to develop a knack for sticking your foot down to get underway again several seconds before you know you can if that makes sense, otherwise it's painfully slow start off, slower than most would ever imagine. Pulling out on a busy roundabout in one of these things is frustration in bucketfuls, we don't want to cause mayhem i assure you, we didn't design or want the thing to pull away with all the acceleration of a supertanker from rest. Overriding the auto function helps IMO so long the vehicle lets you (Dave's experience alone tells you it doesn't in all cases) as at least you will be in the correct gear and under power much faster again, it doesn't unfortunately speed the lethargic gearbox up in actual gear selction, one make of truck i can make faster changes in manual but only by selecting the H or power/performance option whilst in M, usually reserved for auto. Pat will know which make and how to do it, and it still works on the later 2 pedal variants.;) The problem with overriding the auto is that you have to do it nearly if not all the time in order to learn the correct gear to road speed match, it's not something you can do twice a day and hope to perfect it, remember you've usually got 12 gears to play with. I imagine car automanuals are much the same if you want smooth quick junction performance you have to DIY, is that the case? |
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New Mon 31 Oct 11 16:10
Is there an age limit for truck driving? - -
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One thing i forgot to mention, if you fail to indicate your intentions of turning right approaching or on a roundabout, don't be surprised when the truck driver who will without doubt not be Mystic Meg pulls out assuming that you are going straight on. And remember to point the finger of blame of any perceived fall in standards at the people who turn left at a junction or roundabout without indicating too, they are the ones who help to cause huge build ups at busy intersections for their selfish bone idleness. |
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