Humph D a'Bout asked this question recently of his English built Nissan Qashqai, with it's Renault engine,
My previous Nissan Almera was built in England but at least it had a Japanese engine & gearbox,
Many 'Korean' Kia/Hyundai models are made in Eastern €urope,
I can remember when all Japanese cars were Made in Japan,
Does it really matter where your car is built?
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Do you remember the Nissan Cherry Europe - a joint venture with Alfa Romeo - meant to have the build quality of a Nissan with the DNA of an Alfa. Someone misread the memo.
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Yes, I tuned one or two - had the flat 4 engine, ghastly thing!
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At least the Mitsubishi Lancer is Made in Japan :)
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This lot make the bits for KIA's European built cars.
SUPPLIERS :
MOBIS (belongs to Hyundai-Kia)
•MODINE
•BOSCH
•VISTEON
•ARVIN MERITOR
•BLAUPUNKT
•SCHEFENACKER
•SIEMENS
•STABILUS
•TRW
•HUF
•INA
•HELLA
•LANDER
•NGK
•PHILLIPS
•RIETER
•SACHS
•SAINT GOBAIN
•BTV
•CATEM
•KEY SAFETY SYSTEM
•VALEO
•TYCO
•MICHELIN
•GARETT
•JOHNSON-CONTROLS
•HUTCHINSON
Last edited by: Old Navy on Sat 17 Sep 11 at 11:30
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Some makes seem to have left nationality behind. I think of modern Fords as being generically 'European', while Toyotas are more international stil: our Verso was designed in Germany (or is it France?) and built in Turkey with a British-made engine and ancillaries, presumably, from all over - possibly even Japan.
My Volvo was built in Belgium, but still feels Swedish because the design influence shows through. Still has German boot struts and a British-made key with a French name on it, though!
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>>but still feels Swedish because the design influence shows through<<
So is that the answer then i.e it's still a Volvo, even though it's built in Belgium,
and ON's cee'd is still a Korean car, at heart,
How about Humphs QQ - built in England, with a Renault engine, is that still a Japanese car?
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Every time I go to the Orange France radio app on my ipod I get an advert from Toyota for the new Yaris. The words are 'La Toyota - made in France'.
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What I'm really trying to get at, is - does it matter?
I'm pleased to know my Lancer is 'Made in Japan', because I like to think it will be screwed together better,
I remember back in my tuning days that if I came across a Ford Taunus it would have been built better than tha the Ford Dagenham dustbin,
Likewise the Opel Ascona was a better bet than the Vauxhall Cavalier (ditto Astra etc.) IMO,
I suppose it's like my TV - Made in E. €urope, but it's still a Panny at the end of the day.
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Your (and my) lancer is a bit unique these days. I doubt you will find a car on sale new, within the last 5 years that's has as much Japanese content. Its very "old school" Japanese in design and build
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>>Its very "old school" Japanese in design and build<<
Yea! and I like it even more because of that, I was a bit miffed at first to find a quite naff radio/cd player + no 'on board' computer, but the build quality is as good as a Volvo IMO
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I whipped out my Lancer radio (which is actually quite a good one) and put in a Kenwood.
I also had the door panels off to replace the front speakers, surprised to find the old speakers were of such good quality (far far better than those in my old Seat), so good in fact I left the rear ones in situ.
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>> I whipped out my Lancer radio (which is actually quite a good one) and put
>> in a Kenwood.
>>
>> I also had the door panels off to replace the front speakers, surprised to find
>> the old speakers were of such good quality (far far better than those in my
>> old Seat), so good in fact I left the rear ones in situ.
You're getting quite attached to the beast. Thinking of replacing my front door speakers in the Avensis as they are carp. Too much treble from the tweeters set into the door tops, even turned right down. Also a DAB head unit, but I'm holding fire at the moment because there doesn't seem to be much choice apart from one Kenwood (that I like the look of), a Philips, and a few JVC's that look a bit tacky.
Last edited by: VxFan on Mon 26 Sep 11 at 00:38
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My Prius is almost all japanese, with the exception of the Traction battery IIRC.
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My Ceed does have an "Oriental" feel to it, Having moved from a MK2 Focus it feels "Lighter", this is due to the controls requiring less effort although they are no less robust. I find the Ceed similar to the feel of other Japanese built cars that I have owned. The Peugeot's, VW's, SEAT's all felt heavier but were no better built.
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>> I remember back in my tuning days that if I came across a Ford Taunus
>> it would have been built better than tha the Ford Dagenham dustbin,
>>
I used to take pride in the fact, I could tell where a Mk1 Fiesta was built just by looking at it.
Basically;
Poor alignment of panels/trim etc UK
Paint defects, but good panel fit Spain
Almost perfect, Germany.
Don't think I ever got it wrong!
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My car is designed in Italy and built in Poland. No idea where the engine is made but I guess it is Poland. The glass is all Pilkington (A British Japanese firm) though I am not sure where the glass is made. The radio is a Blaukpekpt (sp) and the paint is probably made by Crayola.
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I suppose you're really buying into the Japanese management and quality control of everything that goes into the making of the car, regardless of which country it's assembled in.
No bad thing imo from what i've seen of the operation at Burnaston where quality is taken very seriously, if it ain't perfect it don't go, that hasn't been my experience elsewhere where damage has been sent onto the selling dealer for rectification.
I hope the Koreans are following the Japanese in terms of quality, looking good so far (with some worrying reservations), they seem to be taking up the slack with modern replacements for Corolla etc where the Japanese seemed to have lost sight of the ball for a while.
Don't know if that's right or just a feeling, time will tell...if the first Ceed's are still running round virtually trouble free in 7 years time we will know they are the new Corolla.
Certainly earlier cars like Sonata's, Accents etc were and still are good cars in a simply designed competent and durable way, the earlier designs might look a bit odd now but that doesn't detract from their good basic designs, and put them alongside the surviving contempory European equivalents they don't look any more peculiar.
Excellent used buys too thanks to badge led image hungry Brit buyers.
Last edited by: gordonbennet on Sat 17 Sep 11 at 12:34
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Our 2007 (57) Mazda 2 (first generation built between 2003-2007), was based on the Fiesta/Fusion. Built in Spain on the same production line as the Fiesta/Fusion. All Ford mechanicals, electrics ,etc. Although Ford did adopt some of the Mazda quality systems at Valencia in place of their own.
Three problems since new - coil pack needed replacing at 8 months; immediately followed by HT lead (Mazda made us wait 10 weeks for the part til I insisted Mazda UK fit the Ford part); poor tracking at factory led to two new front tyres at 10,800 miles (2 years).
Sailed through it's second MOT in August.
Reliability - the worst Japanese branded car we've owned, although the 'issues' were all relatively minor.
We've had 15 Japanese cars from new including the Mazda 2, and these included:
1994 Honda Concerto - built by Rover at Longbridge; 1998 Nissan Primera SX and 2001 Nissan Primera S - built at Sunderland; 2006 Toyota Corolla - built at Derby; 2009 Toyota Auris - built at Derby.
Issues: Concerto - central locking/alarm switch in door packed up at one year (warranty repair); Corolla - tailgate hydraulic struts replaced at 2.5 years due to water ingress (warranty repair).
From our experience, it doesn't matter where your 'Japanese' car is built, as the same Japanese quality standards are applied during the vehicle's manufacture.
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>>Reliability - the worst Japanese branded car we've owned, although the 'issues' were all relatively minor<<
Ah! - we're getting there see - in my not-so humble opinion, the Mazda 2 is not a Mazda, it's a Ford Fiesta with a Mazda badge stuck on it with some subtle styling differences.
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>> is not a Mazda, it's a Ford Fiesta with a Mazda badge stuck on it
>> with some subtle styling differences.
>>
That's torn it, get packed for the Coventry train, you've been derogatory to the blue oval..;)
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The first generation 2 was a re-skinned Fiesta/Fusion and was built in Valencia for the European market. It was also built in Hiroshima for the Japanese market, and used Mazda 1.3 and 1.5 petrol engines, rather than Ford 1.2, 1.4 and 1.6 petrol engines.
The second generation 2 (the current one) shares the floorpan and diesel engines with the Fiesta - but is only built in Hiroshima. So commonality between the two cars is a lot less.
Similarly the Corsa shares the same floorpan and some engines as the Punto.
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>>My car is designed in Italy and built in Poland. No idea where the engine is made but I guess it is Poland. The glass is all Pilkington (A British Japanese firm) though I am not sure where the glass is made.<<
I had a replacement windscreen (in France) for a Honda Accord a few years ago. It was stamped 'Pilkington Glass - made in Finland'.
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>>The second generation 2 (the current one) shares the floorpan and diesel engines with the Fiesta - but is only built in Hiroshima<<
At least it's 'Made in Japan' then Auristo.
Interesting 2nd generation Mazda 2 called the e-4WD (only avail Japan) a hybrid car-type system which uses an electric motor to power the rear wheels of the front wheel drive vehicle when needed.
The system is used only as a traction aid, not for increased fuel economy as in most other vehicles, weird.
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>> The system is used only as a traction aid, not for increased fuel economy as
>> in most other vehicles, weird.
>>
Just a cheaper way of providing a limited 4X4 system. No re -engineered gearbox, propshaft etc. Don't forget Japan has some seriously cold weather.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Sat 17 Sep 11 at 13:54
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>>How Japanese is my car?<<
Have you tried shouting random Japanese words at it, and squirting it with a soda siphon!!
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>>Have you tried shouting random Japanese words at it, and squirting it with a soda siphon!!<<
No, but I did threaten it with Hare kari if it didn't pass it's MOT.
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You could have tried Basil's Austin 1100 treatment...
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There maybe a question mark in regard to the Lancer being 'Made in Japan', Mitsubishi have a plant in Barcelona :(
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None at all. The lancer you have is completely Japanese.
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The vin number will indicate where any car was built.
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I like the Lancer used to have the Misubishi Space star 1.6.Got on well with the mechanic who did the servicing.He told me that they had next to no problems with the Lancer,bomb proof engines.
The Ford Focus I have has a French diesel its a lease car.I am in two minds two years from now to by a Lancer new .
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>>I am in
>> two minds two years from now to by a Lancer new .
>>
The new Lancer is a totally different car to Zero's obsolete one.
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>> The new Lancer is a totally different car to Zero's obsolete one.
I prefer the term, time proven and conventional.
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Don't mind conventional someting about Japanese cars.Wouldn't mind a small second hand sports job say Mazda .On the autobahn..>:)
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>> I prefer the term, time proven and conventional.
>>
As my Ceed will become next year with the release of its replacement model. :)
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>>You could have tried Basil's Austin 1100 treatment...<<
I'd prefer Rosemarys J4 van treatment ;}
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Im pretty sure both our Suzuki and Daihatsu are japanese born and bred, a fact not lost on us as neither gives us any trouble.
I dont look upon Nissan as japanese anymore, more as a franco-jap hybrid and looking at the reliability woes of the last Micra, it seems they took all the worst aspects of french cars to inject into a previously ultra reliable model. Good-oh.
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>>I dont look upon Nissan as japanese anymore, more as a franco-jap hybrid and looking at the reliability woes of the last Micra, it seems they took all the worst aspects of french cars to inject into a previously ultra reliable model<<
Exactly! Renault owns 43% of Nissan and they never come anywhere near Japanese brands in the reliability stakes.
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Asian taxi owners/drivers i've met used to swear by Datsuns/Nissans, bomb proof with reasonable maintenance, they'll all tell you the same, once the Primera changed from the original and it's facelift to that odd looking model, the absolute reliabilty for years on end went out the window.
They almost all shifted to Toyota and Skoda.
Same old thing, if it ain't broke....
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Most the taxi drivers I know seem to prefer Skodas to Toyotas now, possibly because they are cheaper to buy. In Manchester a mini cab has to be less than seven years old, after seven years you can't licence it. So many buy 3-4 year old Skodas at a discount price with over 100k on the clock.
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My Yaris was Japan built. There are small parts differences between French and Japan built Yarises... which you discover buying wiper blades or lights.. or some engine components...(sensors)..
But as above, apart from a few teething issues some 8 years ago (gearbox shaft machining), quality is now virtually identical..The QC systems are the same and are adhered to. - from design to build.
Renault exported their QC system and cost cutting to Nissan.. We all know from the Mark2 Scenic/Meganne just how robust those systems are.. not..
But a lot of problems are dealer issues.. many dealers round Stoke on Trent are small and I would imagine Renault support is not a patch on Toyota's.. Similar in much of the UK I would think..
Last edited by: madf on Sat 17 Sep 11 at 21:55
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>> My Yaris was Japan built. There are small parts differences between French and Japan built
>> Yarises... which you discover buying wiper blades or lights.. or some engine components...(sensors)..
My mums Yaris is French built. But the build quality seems to be very good, certainly nothing has gone wrong, although the gearbox whines a bit, which at first I found worrying, but you soon forget that and all the other noises (no soundproofing - the money is spent on the important bits) and just enjoy driving it, it's a fun little car.
One thing that is different between the two though is the handbrake on the French cars is not the conventional set up as on the Jap cars which according to car mechanics mag can de-adjust itself, giving a high handbrake lever position. Hasn't happened to hers yet.
Madf, what revs is your diesel turning over at 70mph, and how does it drive generally? I'd be interested to know, as I've driven a 1.0l courtesy car (must be close to 4000rpm) and mums 1.3l - this revs at 3500rpm and is much peppier through the gears. Feels comfortable at legal speeds as well. The 1.0l is a bit noisy.
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Corax said:
>> Madf, what revs is your diesel turning over at 70mph, and how does it drive
>> generally? I'd be interested to know, as I've driven a 1.0l courtesy car (must be
>> close to 4000rpm) and mums 1.3l - this revs at 3500rpm and is much peppier
>> through the gears. Feels comfortable at legal speeds as well. The 1.0l is a bit
>> noisy.
>>
Aprox 2200rpm at 70mph.
Mine is a 2003 Mark1 facelift with the teardrop headlights.
Basically it drives as HJ's road test.. It's a like a slightly noisy petrol engine with a power band from 1800rpm to 4,000rpm. Very relaxed, handles well (keep the front tyres pressures at 34psi - 2 higher than recommended).
Corners well. Comfortable. 57 mpg around town/short journeys.. 64 ish long runs.
I have the T Spirit with Aircon and driver's seat height adjustment and sunroof.. a nice package.
Downsides: wind noise over approx 75mph. Bouncy ride over bumps in road and potholes around town. Cruises happily at indicated 73 - real 70mph. Great up hills.
Acceleration. Slight diff and turbo whine - not obtrusive and unchanged last 6 years.
Extremely relaible. Arb bushes and front disks# and pads plus servicing.
# first two owners lived near sea- Southport.
Son has a 1.0. Diesel is much faster .
Last edited by: madf on Mon 19 Sep 11 at 13:32
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>> Basically it drives as HJ's road test.. It's a like a slightly noisy petrol engine
>> with a power band from 1800rpm to 4,000rpm. Very relaxed, handles well
Thanks madf, excellent info.
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>>They almost all shifted to Toyota and Skoda<<
And what better recommendation gb, always ask a pro! - in Tenerife all the cabbies drive Benz (as you call them)
Dunno about nowadays though.
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always ask a pro! - in Tenerife all the cabbies>> drive Benz (as you call them) ]]
There's a very old established taxi company in the county, i used to drive for them weekend nights when needing extra dosh raising the kids.
Not rank type stuff, a bit higher profile if you follow, very professional in their methods, you can always spot their cars in the distance, spotlessly clean and driven chauffer style, swift but ultra smooth and very safe.
My DiL uses them for business airport runs, without fail they arrive on time every time..to the minute, knock on the door, carry her bags, open and close the rear door, and she sleeps soundly during the journey either way...something she was unable to do with other companies.
Anyway they use Skoda Superbs, spotlessly clean in white they look the part, but also run a few MB E Class, i noticed one of the MB's laid a bit of black smoke down when one of them came past on the A14 under power couple of months ago.
The very car happened to be in my MB indy when i called later that week, my indy was programming in 2 new injectors and generally servicing the car, which looked well but under the bonnet it looked pretty well used.
It appears the car in question is just about to click over 400k miles and both the W211 E220d's have been virtually trouble free, same as the previous W210 models, however my indy does service things proper like, that must help.
The MB's are manual, so i assume MB must still offer a taxi spec, as privately owned manual E Class are almost unheard off.
Couple of weeks ago i noticed a brand new W212 outside their premises, so still sticking with the Benz.
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My German lady friend had a c1983 230CE, covered 250,000 miles in it on GTX - purrfect condition when she sold it, bought a 250 'Elegance' to replace it, nothing like the old beast though, both petrol BTW.
Nice cars ~ tinyurl.com/5vb3n4e (ebay)
Last edited by: Dog on Sun 18 Sep 11 at 12:17
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>> This is a better one ~ tinyurl.com/622uzcl
>>
Nice cars those
This is the same as mine, which is ruby red (very dark metallic red) with mushroom leather.
tinyurl.com/5s95fdg
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>>This is the same as mine, which is ruby red (very dark metallic red) with mushroom leather<<
Nice gb, are they as bullit proof as the Fraus old 230CE though?
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>> Nice gb, are they as bullit proof as the Fraus old 230CE though?
>>
Yes and no, they are a strong car and drive much better than the 123 series, though the saloon and estate (had the three box set together at one time) feel sturdier, probably lack of B pillar, i imagine the convertible feels even less hewn from granite, but haven't had one...yet.
It's 15 years old now, i've had it 9 years.
It's had some problems which shouldn't really have happened but these years are prone, engine wiring loom degraded which unfortunately shorts out the coils and takes the ECU with it..that would have been a £2.5k repair at MB, but my indy sorted it (i got the ECU repaired and that's a tale in itself, many dodgy sites offering not much except a nice website) for about £1200 including the ECU refurb, though that included 3 new coils too.
The 320's don't have replaceable front bottom ball joints so new wishbones are in order @£225 a side!!! for genuine...i managed to find Lemforder for £125 a side.
It's had springs all round, and though not particularly showing as spent i had new dampers all round as i'm a fussy blighter ( and drive a bit too enthusiastically sometimes) and could feel the dampers weren't giving their best any more.
Main mechanical end electrical parts have been sound, it still goes like hell, the engine is virtually silent till you boot it when it gives a lovely and addictive growl.
Indicator, wiper, dipswitch, horn (only one column switch does it all) switch @ about £75, OVP relay similar price, that's about it really in failures.
Reline and redisc as necessary, fussy me.
Yes thinking about it it's been a good car, but not as good as a Lexus IMO, GS450h of which i'm very tempted...silly boot but then so's mine with an 80 litre LPG tank sitting in it.
To run one of these you either need to be damned good yourself, or have the backing of a first class MB indy specialist...i'm lucky enough to have just about the best in the country on the doorstep, well 15m away....if you need to use the MB dealer you need the pockets of most of the other posters...:-)
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That lot sounds scary gb, think I'll stick with the Lancer :)
My German friends 230CE was bronze with cream leather, I drove it to Hannover (near there) from Cornwall non-stop! going through France, Belgium, Holland, then turn right into The Fatherland, then we 'hit' the Baltic, along into Poland, Czechoslovakia, then back into Dresden,
The old Benz never missed a beat and was very comfortable all the way, she sold it to an Israeli (from London) in the end, he tried to knock the price down due to some rust in the sunroof area, but I told him NO! - so he paid up :-)
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>>drove it to Hannover (near there) from Cornwall non-stop!<<
Correction - I drove from Hastings to Hannover (silly old sod!)
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Bulld to last the old Mercs.
Like their German Frauline's Dog.>;)
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>>Built to last the old Mercs, Like their German Frauline's Dog.>;)<<
Vorsprung durch Technik!
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Vorsprung ok the Reperbahn.Hamburg Dog.-00.)
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You've certainly seen some life Dutchie, I'll wager ;}
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I have Dog relaxing for me now.Retired,had a natter with my cousing Luppo today hope to see him in October we'r going to have a look at his littlle sailing boat in Delfzijl.Then middle October the boat will go in storage for winter he treats it as his baby the boat is 20 years now and still as new.Regarding live you've seen plenty Dog >;)Got my orders taking missus to church to keep me on the narrow and strait.I be going to our son having a coffee.
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I like boats Dutchie, I'd like to spend the weekends about 1 mile off shore :)
We hired a 30ft cabin cruiser on the upper Thames a couple of times - great fun!
Luvly place to live down here in Cornwall Dutchie - our neighbour leaves marrows, runner beans, tomatoes, apples outside the gate, I made some marrow soup last week and yesterday I made an apple pie! ansome it was,
I gave Betty half, she's a Farmer in her 70's, had a hard life - like you!
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confusious say " dog born in stable will never be a horse"
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Where a car is actually built doesn't really matter. The critical parts of assembling a car are now done by robots, and the manual assembly tasks are almost completely unskilled. Skilled assembly tasks have, for good reason, been largely designed out.
As an example, every suspension and subframe bolt underneath the Toyota Carina was machine tightened in one operation, with computerised monitoring of each drive spindle to ensure correct torquing - this was over 15 years ago! When correctly tightened, the machine applied a dab of paint onto the bolt head. The only human involvement was a visual inspection further down the line to see that the paint marks were all there.
Despite having been deeply and technically interested in most aspects of the design and build of motor cars for the last 30 years, I've never seen any technically respectable document which talks about "build quality" - it's an invention of the press.
There are, of course, measures of ride quality, of NVH, of sound quality, etc., but, build quality is a bit of a hoax.
What really matters is who defined the requirements that the car needed to meet in its development, what level of development testing is required at each level of integration (component, sub-assembly, assembly, vehicle), and what design philosophy is followed.
i.e., the die is cast long before the first car even begins its path down the assembly line.
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"What really matters is who defined the requirements that the car needed to meet in its development, what level of development testing is required at each level of integration (component, sub-assembly, assembly, vehicle), and what design philosophy is followed."
Agreed.
And the placement of components and layout is so important for servicing.. and long time durability. Think Passat pollen filter water leaks and impact on floor mounted electronics and connections.
Or MB 16valve petrol engine design (valve recession) or glowplugs/injectors welded into diesel heads with carbon...
Last edited by: madf on Mon 19 Sep 11 at 13:38
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I have a certain amount of sympathy for the designers of modern diesel engines - it's not just MB who have trouble with snapping glow plugs!
For emissions, high pressure direct injection is pretty much mandatory
For good combustion with direct injection, a centrally mounted vertical injector is the best location
For good heat transfer, an aluminium head is required.
To get good breathing with a central injector, 4 valves per cylinder is required.
It's now getting quite crowded near the centre of the cylinder, and the glow plug ends up being long and thin to reach the area near the injector from the edge of the head.
Sealing the injector is a subject that has been a problem for many years - I can remember having great trouble with injectors getting too hot in AEC engines. The thermal contact between the end of the injector and the cylinder head is vital. There is always some soft material specified there - typically copper or aluminium. The heat shield deforms under installation loads, and conforms to both injector and cylinder head. This soft seal is then subject to some fairly harsh changes in load due to thermal stresses. The aluminium cylinder head expands more than the long steel injector body. The soft seal needs to be able to seal and to deal with the varying load every thermal cycle. No wonder they leak!
Having said that, the injector clamp design on MB CDI engines is a bit poor - the internal threads in the head should have been fitted with hard steel inserts from new. In this aspect, automotive practice - leaving female threads in parent aluminium alloy differs from aerospace practice, where inserts are usually specified.
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Very informative Number Cruncher you know your bussiness.
Took my car in this morning the Ford mechanic forgot to reset the computer gizzmo.
Light kept coming on that the car needed a oil service.Having a natter with the Mechanic about the engine and such.The car a Ford Focus T.D.C.I.he showed me all the electronic bits in the engine which can play up.
Also the Turbo problems which can occure due to a small feed pipe getting blocked which ruiness the turbo.The mechanics suppose to service this pipe (clean it but very difficult to get done.)Thats why its problaby left.
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How Japanese is my car? - R.P.
