I had a conversation with a firearms officer, and thought what he said about the cars they use would be of interest.
His force has BMW 530 estates and Discoverys.
None are armoured, although a neighbouring force has two armed response vehicles (ARVs) which are.
Efficient use of resources means the armed vehicles are expected to help out with other duties, so most of his job is traffic.
The extra weight of the guns and associated paraphernalia means the ARVs are slower.
Despite this, he prefers the Discoverys because there's a lot more room inside.
Two or three armed cops in a BMW 530 is cramped, so I was told.
There's a big difference in the top speed, the BMWs will do 140mph+, compared to about 110mph for the Discoverys.
But the officer told me that is largely irrelevant for armed work because arrival times at a job are usually within a couple of minutes of each other.
His force area is a rural one, and they reckon to have a couple of ARVs on duty at any given time.
He - and I - believe it's a different sketch for the big city forces.
He's been to a lot of firearms jobs over the years, but has never needed to fire his weapon.
I've covered a lot of firearms jobs and have a similar experience, I've seen a police officer point his gun many times, but never seen it fired.
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Was it Lancs by any chance?
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I grew up with fire arms police.Dutch police are armed never bothered us as kids .
We where always curious asking about the handguns they where carrying.
Coppers carrying a stick going into trouble strange.
Got once stopped buy traffic police over there,they come out and meet the driver.They don't like surprises.
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I have no problem with armed police in the UK. They know that any incident involving weapons will be closely scrutinised and are only going to use lethal force as a last resort.
In my younger days I have felt most uneasy in other countries (mainly the USA), I am wary of any policeman who puts his hand on his gun when you walk in his general direction. Gung-ho, twitchy, or poorly trained and/or supervised people and guns do not mix well.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Fri 16 Sep 11 at 13:20
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The guy I spoke to was affable enough, but reserved, and clearly not a man given to knee-jerk reactions.
Ideal sort of policeman to give a gun to, I thought.
On t'other hand, I once spent an hour with a group of firearms cops in a police station.
They were larking about, and the larking included drawing their weapons.
They may have been showing off to me, more likely it was pre-match nerves.
But it was all a bit too lively for my liking.
Last edited by: Iffy on Fri 16 Sep 11 at 13:31
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>> They were larking about, and the larking included drawing their weapons.
>>
I doubt their boss was about!
A loaded automatic weapon in its normal safe configuration, bolt forward on an empty chamber, safety on, is as safe as a baseball bat.
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...A loaded automatic weapon in its normal safe configuration, bolt forward on an empty chamber, safety on, is as safe as a baseball bat...
Funny you should say that, because I said to one of them: "I hope that's not loaded," and the reply was along those lines.
The fact they were clearly making me feel uneasy probably made some of them do it all the more.
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I don't know if anyone has seen the BBC3 series 'Young Soldiers' which follows Army recruits - done before but still quite entertaining
www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b014f74k
Anyway just caught it last night, and there was some sort of presentation to which the recruits' families were invited. The soldiers running it were letting the families' kids handle machine guns, RPGs etc. - 46:30 if you iPlayer the programme in the link above. I bet the BBC switchboard lit up :)
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>> The soldiers running it were letting the families' kids handle
>> machine guns, RPGs etc.
Those weapons would not be loaded, The biggest danger would be someone dropping one on their foot.
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>> >> The soldiers running it were letting the families' kids handle
>> >> machine guns, RPGs etc.
>>
>> Those weapons would not be loaded
shame :)
>> The biggest danger would be someone dropping one on their foot.
It wasn't the danger element that surprised me (I assumed there wasn't any), just the fact that they were letting young kids handle proper instruments of death and destruction. Don't get me wrong - I would have loved to be in that position as a kid, and I'd be happy to let my son handle them, but it all looked so very un-PC.
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The military have their own way of doing things.
Different rules - and to an extent different laws - apply the moment you set foot on the base.
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Why would you want to be PC?
This Australian General obviously isn't...
FEMALE INTERVIEWER: So, General Cosgrove, what things are you going to teach these young boys when they visit your base?
GENERAL COSGROVE: We're going to teach them climbing, canoeing, archery, and shooting.
FEMALE INTERVIEWER: Shooting! That's a bit irresponsible, isn't it?
GENERAL COSGROVE: I don't see why, they'll be properly supervised on the rifle range.
FEMALE INTERVIEWER: Don't you admit that this is a terribly dangerous activity to be teaching children?
GENERAL COSGROVE: I don't see how. We will be teaching them proper rifle discipline before they even touch a firearm.
FEMALE INTERVIEWER: But you're equipping them to become violent killers.
GENERAL COSGROVE: Well, Ma'am, you're equipped to be a prostitute, but you're not one, are you?
The radio went silent and the interview ended.
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>> Why would you want to be PC?
>>
>> This Australian General obviously isn't...
Funny, and makes a good point, but unfortunately not true
www.snopes.com/military/reinwald.asp
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>> It wasn't the danger element that surprised me (I assumed there wasn't any), just the
>> fact that they were letting young kids handle proper instruments of death and destruction. Don't
>> get me wrong - I would have loved to be in that position as a
>> kid, and I'd be happy to let my son handle them, but it all looked
>> so very un-PC.
>>
When I was at high school (72-77) the army used to come in once a year with a few toys to show off, you got to play with a 105mm howitzer, FN rifle or some sort of machine gun. Also got to ride around the football pitch in the back of one of those weird 6 wheel amphibious lorry type things, wedge front. I recall it ran over a few kids' school bags, not sure what state they were in afterwards.
EDIT : Alvis Stalwart by the looks of it:-
www.4wdonline.com/Mil/Alvis/Stalwart.html
Last edited by: spamcan61 on Fri 16 Sep 11 at 14:33
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>>and are only going to use lethal force as a last resort.
I sometimes wonder if they should also train in non-lethal use of firearms, but I believe the general plan is if you are going to shoot someone you aim for the chest - large target, high stopping power.
Still remember the poor chap killed by armed Police after a call saying an Irishman had a sawn-ff shotgun in a bag.
Turned out he was Scottish, and it was a chair-leg he was having repaired.
Awful.
**EDIT** - table leg
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Harry_Stanley
Last edited by: Lygonos on Fri 16 Sep 11 at 19:19
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>> I sometimes wonder if they should also train in non-lethal use of firearms, but I
>> believe the general plan is if you are going to shoot someone you aim for
>> the chest - large target, high stopping power.
>>
I am probably way out of date but in my day armed sentries in the UK could use lethal force if their life or the life of someone else was in imminent danger. Also other circumstances which were purely military. (In practice crack a head with a rifle butt, less hassle).
If a policeman thinks you are pointing a gun at him, he is within his rules to defend himself.
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>>
>> Still remember the poor chap killed by armed Police after a call saying an Irishman
>> had a sawn-ff shotgun in a bag.
>>
>> Turned out he was Scottish, and it was a chair-leg he was having repaired.
>>
From what I remember the police were acting on a report of a known criminal carrying a shotgun. The table leg was wrapped in a bag and when the officers challenged him he turned round with the item pointing in their direction.
In the circumstances I would have shot him too.
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>>From what I remember the police were acting on a report of a known criminal carrying a shotgun.
I'm not aware that his identity was known when challenged, simply he had an Irish accent and was carrying a 'weapon in a bag'.
At the subsequent inquiry(s) the Police released previous criminal convictions including armed robbery.
Noone except the 2 officers know for sure what happened.
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>> Noone except the 2 officers know for sure what happened.
>>
I know what happened.
One of the officers involved is a friend, although I've lost touch a bit.
In the end it was proven that there was nothing untoward about this case...nothing whatsoever...not even the slighest hint of impropriety...but it took many, many years.. and the Police Federation asking the Yanks for help...and them saving the officers bacon, through in depth knowledge of situations similar..
...and at least one failed marriage...and untold stress
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>I sometimes wonder if they should also train in non-lethal use of firearms,
>but I believe the general plan is if you are going to shoot someone you aim for the
>chest - large target, high stopping power.
Correct. If the situation is such that you've made the decision to pull the trigger you don't take chances. Non-lethal shots are Hollywood fantasy.
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>> Correct. If the situation is such that you've made the decision to pull the trigger
>> you don't take chances. Non-lethal shots are Hollywood fantasy.
>>
Agree with that.
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Apparently the chap was shot at 15 feet - perhaps the location of the challenge made that necessary,but at that range a sawn-off shotgun is hideously destructive - at 50-60ft it would have been much much less so.
Surely armed police are trained to challenge from a safer distance ?
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The dilemma for armed police officers; Damned if you do, dead if you don't.
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Lygonos,
If you want to know more get a Mod to give you my e-mail address....i'll tell you a bit more that would be inappropriate to post on an open forum.
It will change your view point.
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There is often another side to a story that is not reported. It is fact that the young lad shot dead in Tottenham (Duggan) earlier this year was the nephew of a Manchester gangster. A relative of the gangster was arrested when coordinating the looting in Manchester during/after the riots.
I remember when Manchester changed policy and had armed response teams with weapons in cars and on patrol instead of having to sign them out when needed. I am all for this policy which has been in place for quite a while now.
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I agree that Police need to be armed.
Guns available to carefully selected, vetted and very highly trained specialists locked safe in cars seems to be a good idea as they are readily available.
And the budget to do it properly!!
Arming all police officers is a different argument imho because peoples' "fuses" vary considerably and I wonder if all the current police have the right attitude to carry a gun.
An interesting example of apparently over-zealous policing can be seen here:
www.guardian.co.uk/environment/video/2009/jun/21/fit-watch-kingsnorth-arrests
The woman in question seems pushy but does not deserve the reaction she gets (her interaction with the office starts at about 48 seconds in).
If this officer had a gun or tazer, the outcome may have been unpleasantly different.
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Police have a difficiult task but when I see three big blokes manhandle a woman shown in this film it does rattle me.
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>>An interesting example of apparently over-zealous policing can be seen here:
>>www.guardian.co.uk/environment/video/2009/jun/21/fit-watch-kingsnorth-arrests
Is it still available as it will not play for me.
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>>Is it still available as it will not play for me.
Yes, but it is slow to load.
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...I'll do it now...done...
Secrecy, cover-up, it's all a conspiracy.
Tell us all what you're talking about, or I'm writing to The Guardian.
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A request to exchange e-mails via a Mod iffy. The Guardian will already have been aware.
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...The Guardian will already have been aware...
That's a relief.
Shame the News of the World is not still with us.
They would have known about the emails before you sent them.
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They have there problems across the channel.Man got shot in The Hague apparantley disturbed.He didn't get killed.Interesting the Dutch police use a Walther P5.Also called 9mm Luger.
They had some problems regarding fitting.Some coppers hands where to large and some woman coppers hands to small.Also designed for righthanded people.Clean shot up to 15 meters close up weapon.Weight 795 gram and 18 cm long.
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A chat with a firearms cop - Dieselboy
