In order to knock £100 off the price of a car (i.e to increase their margins), manufacturers supply them with four wheels and a tub of goo and a compressor. A replacement tub of goo (shelf life, what, 4 years?) will cost north of £100 and the old tub thrown away. In the old days, the spare tyre would have been put on the car, and a near-worn one put in the boot. No waste. What's the cost of a lump of steel fashioned into a round lump? £10?
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To be fair to the manufacturers, saving the weight of the spare is very important these days to get the CO2 emission levels as low as possible. In addition, no spare allows more luggage/passenger space.
So, I don't think it is all about cost-savings.
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+1 Mapmaker.
Last edited by: Mike Hannon on Fri 2 Sep 11 at 11:44
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On this years recent hols I was pleased not to have a spare. I took the plastic dividers from the underfloor wheel well and it produced a huge space that took loads of our kit before we even started on the hatch area.
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I'd like to say it's to save weight, but i reckon that's spin.
It saves space?, except in cases like the 207 where they removed the previously fitted spare from it's excellent space beneath the boot carpet and put a huge lump of expanded foam stuff with cut outs for the toy pump and goo kit, thereby creating no space, brilliant.
I think some of it is space saving, but mostly it's down to cost.
Their costs, say £10 for a pump and tub of goo, probably not that much.
Lot cheaper for the maker, no wheel or tyre or wheelbrace or jack to supply, no cradle or securing straps to be manufactured or fitted, no reinforcings needed in the sill area for jacking points in due course, it all adds up.
When punter comes to use the muck and realises he's been had when it fails to plug the split in the sidewall, it won't matter cos they'll already have his hard earned money in the bank, and he'll have to go back for some more goo too, just in case it happens again, kerching.
Answer?...don't buy any car new or used without a preferably full size spare wheel, jack and wheelbrace, vote with wallet.
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The biggest saving is in not having to make tools for, and then manufacture and install, extra parts i.e. the well the spare wheel goes into.
The auto industry is (in)famously cost sensitive - anything that can be done to shave cents off costs will be.
How many cars do Ford, PSA or VAG build in a year? If you could save €10 in straps, wheel braces for every one of them, save another (say) €10 on a space saver wheel and also save the cost of installing wheel wells, that adds up to millions earned between the manufacturers. And how many potential buyers will even look under the boot cover in the showroom to notice the difference?
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>>or wheelbrace or jack to supply,
Yes there is.
>>no cradle or securing straps to be manufactured or fitted,
Different shaped filler for the goo and pumpt
>>no reinforcings needed in the sill area for jacking points
but given a spacesaver (lol) is a paid-for extra, don't think that's a saving.
>>the biggest saving is in not manufacturing the well
But they DO.
>>Answer?...don't buy any car new or used without a preferably full size spare wheel, jack and wheelbrace, vote with wallet.
Pay the extra £150 for the "accessory" spare - which is a useless spacesaver anyway. When you've already paid for the goo. And the new goo will be another £100 in four years' (?) time.
Last edited by: Mapmaker on Fri 2 Sep 11 at 12:11
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Goo is £2 a tin from Asda (Holts tyre weld) when on special. A pump is £5 delivered via Amazon or eBay.
I have both -- i like having the option of the goo, you never know what circumstances you'll be in when you need to fix a flat, but i wouldn't be happy without a full size spare, it's my first choice.
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>> Pay the extra £150 for the "accessory" spare - which is a useless spacesaver anyway.
>> When you've already paid for the goo.
Make the supply of a proper spare wheel part of the deal, supplied without charge, or walk away.
If they can't accomodate a customer they really should be wooing into parting with umpteen thousand pounds, what hope once they've got your dosh and you find you've bought the Friday afternoon car.
I can understand how you feel though, and i would not be paying for something that should aready be supplied.
If i really wanted the car i'd buy it without the spare and source one from a breakers, i couldn't give them the satisfaction of giving them extra money for it.
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My new car will come with a full sized alloy spare wheel and I'd want to keep it in the car. But oddly one accessory you can buy fits in the spare wheel well to hold items in place.
The emissions are one reason I thought not even space savers were in some cars now. But mine with stop-start and regenerative braking has lowish emissions and has the 18" spare alloy in place.
So I think it's to save money.
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When i ordered my Pug 207 in May this year i was given the choice of 3 no cost options, a full size spare, a space saver or a pump and goo.
For me there was only one choice - the first option !
Last edited by: Skip on Fri 2 Sep 11 at 12:56
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Goo sounds like poo for a very good reason, its a rubbish idea.
Nothing wrong with a space saver tho, except it doesn't really save that much space
Last edited by: VxFan on Fri 2 Sep 11 at 13:14
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All very anti goo today. It never crosses my mind as an issue. In the unlikely event it was needed I'd just call a man and get it dealt with.
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To clarify.... in the unlikely even it was needed... and didn't do the job... I'd then call a man to sort it.
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The cost saving for manufacturers is in the range of millions of pounds!
I never liked the idea of not having a spare wheel. My current car has a space saver because I discovered if I want a car with full size spare wheel my choice will be very narrow! 50 MPH limit on a space saver is not great but at least it should serve its purpose.
But I made a point not to buy a car which does not even have a space saver!
There are other things which are in my hate list - namely electronic parking brake, dual clutch transmission, centrally mounted dashboard etc.
But I fear soon a time will come when I won't find a car which ticks all boxes for me :-(
Someone once said if a lie is repeated 10 times it becomes truth. So, after few years, all these awkward designs will become the norm.
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I've had spacesavers for the last 13 years, during which time one question has bothered me. I've never had to find the answer but someone here must have had to put on the spacesaver on a long journey with a full load. So to that person goes the question: where did you put the full-size wheel and tyre that wouldn't go where the spacesaver came from?
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>> I've had spacesavers for the last 13 years, during which time one question has bothered
>> me. I've never had to find the answer but someone here must have had to
>> put on the spacesaver on a long journey with a full load. So to that
>> person goes the question: where did you put the full-size wheel and tyre that wouldn't
>> go where the spacesaver came from?
>>
That IS a major problem with space-savers.
The (non)answer is; in the boot. Sods law is, the puncture will happen, on a rainy day, when you have a boot full of stuff.
The alternative is in the passenger cell.
A woman died because of carrying a space-saver in the passenger cell.
news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/edinburgh_and_east/8600833.stm
Give me a proper car, with a proper spare, any day.
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>>Nothing wrong with a space saver tho
Everything wrong with a space saver. You are limited to 50 miles at 50 mph (iirc). So when you're leaving London at 6pm on a Friday, aiming to be in Edinburgh or Paris for bed, what use is that?
Fenlander, you can call a man, but he'll just recover you to the nearest Kwikfit until it opens at 9am the following morning.
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>> You are limited to 50 miles at 50 mph (iirc)
IIRC just the 50 MPH limit is there, no distance limit
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Agree pretty much all above. Even if the goo seals the hole do I have any faith in it to get me home?
Getting a tow and a tyre replacement is a pain at the best of times. Double that out of workshop hours. And then I holiday on the Western Isles - what chance a tyre fitter at Breanish anytime today never mind on Sunday.
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>> You are limited to 50 miles at 50 mph (iirc). So when you're leaving London at 6pm on a
>> Friday, aiming to be in Edinburgh or Paris for bed, what use is that?
But if you are driving as far as say Paris and you're stuck on a full sized spare - what if you have a puncture on the way? I feel I've said this before on here though. But I'd rather even a space saver to a can of tyre sealant and pump.
On a company car, the last two (Mondeo and now Mazda6) I've had space savers. No option on the Mazda6 but on the Mondeo you could get a full size spare for free. I didn't to avoid the problem of the lease company trying to use the spare instead of fitting two tyres when they are due - they've tried that before now on me.
And with a lease company behind you, I am sure I'd get a tyre changed out of hours if needed. If I broke down I can get a hire car out of hours - a depot would be opened.
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>>Nothing wrong with a space saver tho, except it doesn't really save that much space<<
If your idea of 'space' is the boot of an XJS then it does.
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>>But if you are driving as far as say Paris and you're stuck on a full sized spare - what if
>>you have a puncture on the way?
Then you're very unlucky indeed. In previous surveys on here, the puncture rate seems to be about once every 100,000 miles.
And I suppose only 25% of those result in a failure, rather than a slow puncture.
And I'd guess about only 10% of those are a blow out that cannot be fixed with goo.
So you'd only get stuck about every 4 million miles.
Which I suppose is why you needn't worry about not having a spare. It's pure paranoia from years gone by when cars had punctures weekly as the tyres were rubbish and nobody had tread.
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>> >>But if you are driving as far as say Paris and you're stuck on a
>> full sized spare - what if
>> >>you have a puncture on the way?
Happened to me once as a passenger. We were travelling in a taxi from Leningrad to Tallin late one night (after midnight) in the dead of winter. This was in 1990. Puncture number one happened just outside Leningrad. The driver changed the wheel and we were off again. Puncture number two happened about 2am in the middle of an unpopulated forest. The driver flagged down a passing lorry (luckily, as there was hardly any traffic about) and hitched a lift to the nearest town with the punctured tyre and wheel.
I and 3 others were left with the taxi (a Volga) in the forest. It was around minus 10 I suppose, so not too cold a night, happily. The driver hitched a lift back with the repaired wheel at about 9am, we were lucky he'd managed to get the repair done so quickly. During the night we spent as much time as possible in the car with the engine running and heater on, occasional trips outdoors were met with much howling from the wolves in the forest, preciptating swift returns to the clammy insides of the Volga.
Not an experience I'd be happy to repeat.
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>> Then you're very unlucky indeed. In previous surveys on here, the puncture rate seems to
>> be about once every 100,000 miles.
I must be a bit unlucky - had three flat tyres this year. Done less than 10,000 miles. Two of them were in the same tyre two weeks apart. Second time it was repairable. Third flat was a dodgy valve.
The two real flats were probably related to a house being renovated nearby with lots of workmen, skips etc. Picked up a nail/screw.
But the fact I had two punctures on the same wheel in two weeks (so less than a few hundred miles) means some of us can be unlucky at times.
Also had a puncture last year. But before that the last puncture was August 2002.
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>>Two of them were in the same tyre two weeks apart. Second time it was repairable. Third flat was a dodgy valve.
All three would presumably have been fine with goo?
Last edited by: Mapmaker on Fri 2 Sep 11 at 16:17
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The problem with goo is that if it works and seals the puncture, the driver then carries on regardless.
Meanwhile down below, the unfound nail that entered the tread is happily tearing the sidewall to pieces from the inside with every turn of the tyre as it flexes...further on when the ripped carcass gives out in one big bang?
I started work in a proper tyre repair workshops, i've seen what happens inside tyres when objects pierce them, tyres when damaged need examining and repairing if possible by a professional, not a tyre fitter.
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But the goo is a temporary fix and some places won't fix them when filled with goo. So the first one was not repairable. The second two were. Tyre sealer would have made it a bigger job. Also to find the hole the tyre was fitted and the leak identified with simply spraying with water.
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>> Nothing wrong with a space saver tho
Except that with many cars you're not allowed to tow with the space saver. A bit of a problem if you regularly tow long distance, like me. I even bought an extra wheel on eBay, so have two spare wheels - not as daft as it sounds - I swap the two spares with the two front wheels on a regular basis, and all six tyres wear out about the same time.
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>>swap the two spares with the two front wheels on a regular basis, and all six tyres wear out about the same time
Have you a 4WD? Unless so, then you might as well run with the two spares having (nearly) worn out tyres on them.
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>>>Fenlander, you can call a man, but he'll just recover you to the nearest Kwikfit until it opens at 9am the following morning.
So we book a hotel... it's no big deal for the number of times we've had punctures.... which of course are so long ago I can't remember the last one.
But honestly I don't want anyone worrying on my behalf... I really like the goo arrangement.
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We looked at an 06 Focus with a full-size spare. It impinged on the (already quite small) boot space by more than half the width of the tyre. I sometimes fill the boot right up with kids' bags and duvets, so the Mondeo's big boot with a flat floor concealing a space-saver suits me fine.
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Scenario 1.
One's 18"x225 tyre has a puncture whilst you're on the way say on holiday. Quick as a flash you whip out the spacesaver and put the punctured tyre/wheel where ?
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I reckon there's always a spare bit of cubic volume somewhere inside a car.
In 3 years of running a Skoda estate with a 15"x15"x15" bass box in the boot, I only had to unplug the box and leave it behind once - and that was to accommodate a family of two adults and two teenage girls with 2 months' luggage going to the airport. Every other job managed to fit in the car somehow.
If I get a flat in the Mondeo with a full load, I'll just transfer some of the bags into the back seat with the sprogs. Or unclip the parcel shelf.
Last edited by: Dave_TDCi on Fri 2 Sep 11 at 21:31
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My wife had a puncture in her MX5 some years ago (that one had a spacesaver - current one has a little compressor) - devil of a job carrying the wheel home without making a mess of the car. Lucky she had no passenger that day...!
Last edited by: R.P. on Fri 2 Sep 11 at 21:32
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Would makes sense to keep a huge strong polythene bag folded up inside the spacesaver spare wheel for just such an eventuality, the filth on the inside of a front wheel especially has to be seen to be believed.
Don't forget to pop a spare pair of Marigolds or similar in too, that puncture is never at the most convenient time.
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Have a large polythene drop sheet folded up in the spare wheel well. That way you can use it to kneel on as well when you change the wheel.
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I do keep a spare pair of lorry-driver gloves and a hi-vis vest tucked under there, as well as an old towel wrapped round the tools and a pack of baby wipes. Jeez, I'm turning into Ted...
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>> the filth on the inside of a front
>> wheel especially has to be seen to be believed.
I'm surprised that a man of your thoroughness doesn't get under there with a creeper and a toothbrush to do said inside of wheel - I do :)
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>> I'm surprised that a man of your thoroughness doesn't get under there with a creeper
>> and a toothbrush to do said inside of wheel - I do :)
>>
I didn't say my wheels did i C...so nurr..;)
No toothbrush, but i do keep an old sponge in the bucket and feed it through the spokes and wiggle it all the way round.
When the winter/summer sets get swapped the off set are thoroughly cleaned before being stored in the dark garage for the duration.
Electric toothbrush i presume?
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>> No toothbrush, but i do keep an old sponge in the bucket and feed it
>> through the spokes and wiggle it all the way round.
Got one of these
www.cleanyourcar.co.uk/wheels-and-tyres/ez-detail-brush/prod_480.html
The tyre fitter was well impressed when he fitted the all seasons. No gunk to have to clean off the inside of the wheel when sticking the weights on.
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>> Got one of these
>>
A soft handbrush @ £1 from Lidl's does mine...not made of money in Northants yerno...
Can't beat keeping wheels regularly clean though, that heavy brake dust doesn't get ingrained, tyre fitters indeed all mechanics have to deal with some horrible muck under some peoples cars.
Edit, the Parotech wheels on my MB are painted dark grey where the dust normally accumulates, but still keep 'em clean.
Last edited by: gordonbennet on Fri 2 Sep 11 at 22:34
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>> One's 18"x225 tyre has a puncture whilst you're on the way say on holiday. Quick as a flash
>> you whip out the spacesaver and put the punctured tyre/wheel where ?
Might be why the Passat I'm getting has a full size spare. Where else as you say do you put an 18" wheel. Have to hand it to VW that the spare is not only full size but an alloy. And on mine will have a tyre pressure monitoring valve too.
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>> >> One's 18"x225 tyre has a puncture whilst you're on the way say on holiday.
>> Quick as a flash
>> >> you whip out the spacesaver and put the punctured tyre/wheel where ?
>>
Porsche's come with a bag to put the wheel in, and you put it on the passenger seat! Not sure what happens if there's already a passenger there.
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>> Not sure what happens if there's already a passenger there.
Feel tyred I would imagine.
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A spacesaver was a £25 option on the CC3, making it the cheapest accessory on the list.
I opted for the extra space the goo and compressor provides.
So under the floor I have my freebie cagoule (used once), tow rope (also used once, to move a skip), window cleaner and car polish (soon to be replaced by a bottle of waterless car wash), cloths, and a first aid kit.
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How is goo a good idea? - Notdoctorchris
