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News on Tyre Pressure Monitoring Systems (TPMS) - 11.07.11
Our friends at the EU have decreed that from 2012 TPMS will become part of the MOT test. What this means is that from January 2012 any vehicle that was originally fitted with TPMS will have to have it fully operative in order to pass the MOT test. Watch this space for news updates on TPMS.
How are testers going to check TPMS ?
Let air out of each tyre in turn and pump it back up ?
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So... another stupid idea, that will become a legal requirement sooner or later.
Why do I say stupid, when it warns you of pressure loss?
Because the system is useless in a case of a blowout, or a severe puncture - pressure loss happens quickly, and any warning is too late.
And it makes people lazy - they don't use a pressure gauge, that means they don't look at their tyres, which in turn means low tread, and damaged sidewalls go unnoticed.....
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Ah, I see, you're one of those people who can't tell that they've got a blowout or severe puncture without either a TPMS or checking the tyre pressures with a gauge.
It's not meant to warn you of that, you plonker; it's designed to detect a gradual loss of pressure in one tyre and alert the driver before a dangerous situation develops. It's on the BMW, it's never triggered, and it means I only have to check the pressures every couple of months or so.
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Alfa, I suggest you know READ wot I wrote!
I am TOTALLY against 'driver aids' such as tps systems.
In fact... it is you who is the plonker - I check my tyres visually on at least a weekly basis, so I am well aware of any problems I may have with my tyres.
Last edited by: swiss tony on Sat 20 Aug 11 at 19:29
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There's a difference between a visual check for condition - which is something that can be done pretty much on a daily basis - and an essential need to know the tyre pressure.
I believe the systems were required primarily for the case of run-flat tyres, where a partial depressurisation is impossible to detect visually before catastrophic damage to the tyre sidewall occurs. I think it's very useful - in fact, I believe it's a compulsory fitting on new cars in the USA too.
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>>I think it's very useful - in fact, I believe it's a compulsory fitting on new cars in the USA too.
I hope TPMs will be mandatory on all cars asap.
My current vehicle is the first that has had lower profile tyres - 50s and I find it impossible to
identify a few psi loss of pressure by just looking at them.
I do regularly check the pressure with a guage as I have no other option.
TPMs would be great for my needs.
In the real world of the vast majority of motorists tyres are ignored. Unless running on the rim, a MoT failure or the rare service notes "dodgy tyres" , most carry on regardless.
I regularly see cars being driven with seriously under inflated tyres.
Hopefully a warning light for tyres would nudge drivers to fix the pressure.
I know it would be additional warning lights on the dash but I live in hope that they are noticed.
Drivers checking tread depth or condition is just a dream for the vast majority - thats wot an MoT is for !!!!!
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>> Drivers checking tread depth or condition is just a dream for the vast majority -
>> thats wot an MoT is for !!!!!
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Shakes head in despair..... I hope you are joking, although working in the motortrade for over 30years, I know there are a lot of people who believe that the MOT is the only maintenance their car ever needs.....
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Put me in the plonker category with Swiss.
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>> Put me in the plonker category with Swiss.
Me too.
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That's a lot of Renaults up the swanee then. Our Scenic had them disabled, and the dealer who serviced it reckoned they were doing several a week, because the Renault system basically doesn't work, never has, and can't be made to.
What a ridiculous plan!
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>> That's a lot of Renaults up the swanee then. Our Scenic had them disabled, and
>> the dealer who serviced it reckoned they were doing several a week, because the Renault
>> system basically doesn't work, never has, and can't be made to.
>> What a ridiculous plan!
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One of the makes I deal with at work, has 'issues' with the monitoring valve corroding resulting in the stem breaking off with total loss of pressure.
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>> What a ridiculous plan!
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Based on the two examples given I would tend to agree BUT I believe (in spite of French cars) that TPMs will get sorted out and be reliable especially if they become mandatory.
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There are two types of tyre pressure monitoring methods though. One uses special valves and measures the actual pressure in the tyres and displays it in the car. The other detects when pressures change and make you aware - using ABS sensors to detect changes I think.
On the Passat with the latter system, there's a button you press to 'set' the pressure. Presumably it then lets you know when it is different. The car has no idea what the pressure really is in each tyre.
The alternative on the Passat is the electronic TPMS with a special valve. The actual pressure of all four tyres is displayed in the multi-function display.
In the last 18 months I have had 4 tyres with a nail or was spotted as flat the next day. The first was obvious when I came out in the morning it had a nail or something and it was flat - and therefore replaced. The second looked fine and little air had actually escaped and was spotted when front tyres were being checked... not repairable and both new rear tyres fitted. Weeks later one of the rears was deflated and it had a nail (new tyre) and repairable. Recently a front tyre was down after holidays - faulty valve.
Because of my bad luck, and also (1) because one was not even obvious when pressure checked... and (2) the car has self-sealing tyres... I opted for the electronic TPMS.
Like all I probably don't check pressures as often as I should but visually inspect tyres all the time. If the pressure was down I'd spot it.
Last edited by: rtj70 on Sat 20 Aug 11 at 20:48
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>>Like all I probably don't check pressures as often as I should but visually inspect tyres all the time. If the pressure was down I'd spot it.
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I tried visaully inspecting my tyres for loss of pressure and found that was very unreliable.
I was only satified when I used a gauge to give me the PSI reading.
I tried looking at the tyre from above to see if I could detect a bigger bulge than normal at the bottom. Only when a lot of pressure was lost could I seen the effect.
The background is :- Tyres were coming up for replacement but one was starting to loose some pressure. I could not find and damage / puncture so was checking that tyre every day I used the car. Only after several days unused could I detect a flatter tyre and the PSI was way way down when I used the gauge.
A new pair of Kumhos were fitted yesterday and as suspected the shoulders of the suspect wheel wheel had coroded.
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Lowest common denominator as usual.
Some people are drivers, learn about them and take pride and care of their vehicles and try to drive them competently.
Others are users of automotive washing machines, sit in and turn it on, they need all this electronic gubbins otherwise they'd fall off the road at the first serious bend in the wet on their balding underpressure cheap rubbish tyres...the same ones need automatic wipers and lights and assorted driving aids to keep them out of the scenery when the car's new on proper tyres.
The increasing numbers of the second group and corresponding diminishing numbers of the first means ever more carp.
Darwin has been cheated.
Last edited by: gordonbennet on Sat 20 Aug 11 at 21:38
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Aren't you more likely to lose grip in the wet with over inflated tyres?
Back to the original question though - if the MOT will check that the tyre pressure monitoring system then how will it work?
If you've got the electronic variety that measures tyre pressures I suppose it's easy. For the one relying on other sensors like ABS isn't that difficult to do on an MOT?
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I understand that the direct measuring type will ultimately be made obligatory.
Don't really see what the problem is and don't understand all this real driver stuff either. It is perfectly possible to be a competent driver who enjoys motoring without wishing to spend the weekends doing your own servicing and tinkering with the car. The less time I have to spend dealing with things mechanical the better
If modern technology can provide me with a means of accurately checking the tyre pressures every time I get in the car surely that's progress. I doubt whether most people on here currently check their tyres more than once a week, I certainly don't.
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I'm struggling to believe some folks are against this.
We've been using the current method since cars arrived - it's not working. Under inflated tyres are common. Drivers in general just aren't interested in what's seen as a triviality, tyres. Go into any tyre place and ask for the best tyre possible. They look at you like you've got 2 heads... So you won't be wanting our £25/corner ones then? They're only ever asked for the cheapest.
TPMS is not fool proof, but it costs nothing to implement (bar a slight increase in purchase price of the car). I'd wager those of us who do check our pressures regularly will continue to, even with tpms on a car.
Those who don't currently, well maybe they'll take note of the warning from the car. Of course, some are terminally ignorant and this will do nothing for them. That's fine, you're not going to get through to that driver no matter what you do.
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>> TPMS is not fool proof, but it costs nothing to implement
Electronic TPMS which measures and displays actual pressures does cost a few £'s but not many. You need a valve that sends pressure info to the car for starters.
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Yeah I recognised the cost, was meaning more along the lines of you're not going to loose any freedoms or somehow end up with a burden caused by tpms. It's not going to make your car a scrapper if it goes wrong. It's comparatively cheap.
Although thinking about it now, with tpms your car can be identified and tracked just by driving past a small box of cheap electronics anyone with a soldering iron could make. This was demo'd in America, how to identify a car just by listening to it's tpms broadcasts as it drives past each day. So maybe it does infringe on your liberty a bit.
Last edited by: Skoda on Sat 20 Aug 11 at 22:57
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Mine has electronic TPMS. I will still periodically double check pressures myself. But a puncture could occur on a journey. So TPMS has real safety implications.
It's not instead of checking it's as well as. Those that won't check already don't. Same people who wait for a low oil pressure warning light to come on to tell them to top up the oil.
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So I am correct in thinking the spare wheel on my car will also have a tyre pressure sensor and therefore the position of the wheel on the car is determined by just that and not a code sent my a particular sensor.
iffy will be surprised when I say the tyre pressure sensors on my next car will cost me about £1/month. It would have the standard TPMS but mine will monitor and display actual pressures.
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>> So I am correct in thinking the spare wheel on my car will also have
>> a tyre pressure sensor and therefore the position of the wheel on the car is
>> determined by just that and not a code sent my a particular sensor.
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>> iffy will be surprised when I say the tyre pressure sensors on my next car
>> will cost me about £1/month. It would have the standard TPMS but mine will monitor
>> and display actual pressures.
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Each sensor has its own ID (like an ip address) but has no idea which hub its bolted to.
So if you were to swap the wheels around, you could have a flat NSF, but be told by the system that the OSR is low in pressure.
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Yes - we live in the most spied upon nation in the Western World.
CCTV, ANPR, GPS tracking, smart phones etc., HMRC access to loyalty card data etc.
"They" know who you are, where you are, what you spend, who you talked to, which web sites you visit, what searches you make, what you put in your wheelie bins et al.
In the not too distant future every child born will have a chip implanted so Big Brother can fully monitor your every moment.
Frankly, the mantra "if you have nothing to hide you have nothing to worry about" will not wash any more.
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The MOT as a safeguard of people's life is not particularly effective.
Most accidents (by a very large majority) are caused by driver error.
So, a small proportion are caused by failures of the vehicle.
Of these failures, only a small proportion could ever be detected and put right by an MOT system.
So, the MOT protects us, at great expense, against a small proportion of a small proportion of accidents. [I'm being vague about the figures, but, I'm referring to the Netherlands study I've posted the link to before]
Of the vehicle related faults which do cause a large proportion of the deaths and injuries on the roads, tyre inflation and condition are way out at the top of the list.
Including a system which monitors this situation all of the time, during a journey, rather than in an annual inspection, or in the driver's (extremely variable and not enforced) checking regime is obviously worthwhile.
There are some who are seemingly happy to submit their cars to an expensive, inconvenient, and dubiously effective inspection scheme, but don't want a checking system on their car which has a much greater chance of saving their skin.
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Future cost alert.... the sensors VAG uses have a battery that lasts 8 years. So at some point someone would have to replace this on 5 tyres... and you'll perhaps think you have a problem with the tyre(s) before you know it's the battery.
Not a service item as you'd need to take the tyre off to replace.
Glad I'll have my car for 3 years.
Last edited by: rtj70 on Sat 20 Aug 11 at 23:08
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>> Of the vehicle related faults which do cause a large proportion of the deaths and
>> injuries on the roads, tyre inflation and condition are way out at the top of
>> the list.
And that is part of my argument.
Those of us that DO check our tyres regularly, (pressure, and at the same time condition) no longer 'need' to check the pressure, so the condition check is passed by.
I freely admit to being of the old school, lifting the bonnet to check the oil level, and whilst there, have a look around for the general under bonnet condition, oil leaks, drive belt condition, etc.
Having seen the condition of what were once tyres, fitted to customers vehicles when they are in our workshop, I honestly despair!
We are having extended service intervals, and basic checks covered by in car systems, thus the basic checks are being ignored.
Some cars can go through tyres in under the mileage between services!
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This link is for a discussion and a lot of info on the VW Phaeton system. I assume it'll be similar for my car. Sounds like it also monitors the spare tyre! And not just pressures but temperatures. Sounding better than I thought....
forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?1817987-Tire-Pressure-Monitoring-System-(TPMS)-Design-Function-Operation-and-Troubleshooting
Of course mine might not be as good. Not a Phaeton.
Last edited by: rtj70 on Sat 20 Aug 11 at 23:20
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Thanks for the Phaeton info. Some light reading.
I like the flat tyre warning display. I wonder what the plebs would make of it assuming they can read ?
I also noted the PSI required on the W12 tyres.
When that Lotto winning comes my way a W12 will too.
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The fact the tyre pressure system (electronic) in VAG cars tells you a tyre went down when stationary overnight is something I didn't know it did. But I am assuming the Passat system is similar. Likewise monitoring the spare wheel. But when the spare is a full size alloy, I hope it is monitored otherwise what happens when it is fitted? The car wouldn't know the pressure.
The VW system on the Passat which I know has metal valve stems (my car has them - I've been to see it) is fairly cheap. About £70 I think. Maybe the standard one is more than just ABS? £70 sounds cheap to me. Especially when a car is more than £20k.
Last edited by: rtj70 on Sat 20 Aug 11 at 23:50
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>>Of the vehicle related faults which do cause a large proportion of the deaths and injuries on the roads, tyre inflation and condition are way out at the top of the list.
NC, you've already said that the majority of accidents are caused by driver error, though I don't dispute that tyre problems cause accidents. My own car (in 1978!) was written off by somebody losing control on a bend, though that was because his front tyres were bald not under pressure.
I'm not a Luddite, but I hate all the unnecessary stuff for two reasons. One is that they are just another source of expense and problems, especially on older cars (I can't open the driver's window on my 12 year old MX5 at the moment, and the central locking has failed).
The other is that the main effect of nanny systems is to remove responsibility from the user. As a driver you are responsible.
The people who run around with bald underpressure tyres aren't going to be in a rush to adjust their tyre pressures when the light comes on. They just won't. How many even have a tyre pump or pressure gauge? The guy who services my cars tells me he gets calls from people whose cars have ground to a halt days or weeks after the picture of the engine appeared on the dashboard and they did nothing about it; or they want the metal to metal brakes sorting out because it's MoT time. They are morons, and a light on the dash won't cure them.
If you want to improve road safety, link the TPMS warning to the immobiliser and prevent the car restarting when it's switched off; or install a system that shoots goo into the tyre and reinflates it.
Eye catching marketing, not road safety.
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given that we have managed for over a hundred years without compulsory TPMS, and that deaths (through any cause) are at their lowest ever and falling, clearly proves that such stupidly ill thought out and petty legislation is not required.
Last edited by: Zero on Sun 21 Aug 11 at 09:38
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Manatee, It appears you an I are both on the same wavelength.
As is, it seems Zero.
I really hate such systems BECAUSE it makes people lazy, whist not keeping the idiots in check.
As you said, if people can't be bothered physically checking, an easily ignored light is no better... nor is a display that actually tells people what the fault is, the amount of people who bring cars in, with lights and warning messages on, that are surprised when told about them, beggars belief.....
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>> Eye catching marketing, not road safety.
MoT test, like the closure for alleged health reasons of breakers' yards, is very clearly intended to make cheap motoring more difficult and arduous and get rid of cars still with plenty of life in them to stimulate new and nearly-new sales.
Carphounds.
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>> >>Of the vehicle related faults which do cause a large proportion of the deaths and
>> injuries on the roads, tyre inflation and condition are way out at the top of
>> the list.
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>> NC, you've already said that the majority of accidents are caused by driver error,
Yes, *OF* the vehicle related faults which do cause accidents.....
My point being that if we really want to address the effect of vehicle maintenance on reducing accidents, then, monitoring the tyres is a much better and more practical start than the MOT.
I think that the system which uses ABS wheel speed data is resistant to most Luddite whinges - it uses no significant extra parts, and the main part of its function is some more processing of the wheel speed data inside an ECU. If all vehicle parts were as reliable as ECUs, many garages would be out of business!
Of course, the determined reckless user of poorly maintained vehicles will not change their ways. However, I imagine that the real benefit these systems will give is to prevent accidents in the large sector of car users who are not reckless, but, not enthusiastic maintainers of vehicles - those who fall below the very high standards of the superhumans who populate this forum.
As an example, SWMBO doesn't check her tyre pressures - I do it for her. However, she would stop ring up and ask me if a light suddenly appeared on the dashboard. The TPMS would be checking and monitoring the tyres all the time - it would pick up a tyre failing mid-journey, when even the most super-human wouldn't otherwise know.
So, I suggest that TPMS is, far from a gimmick, actually a sensible improvement. I'm not sure about adding it to the MOT, because the MOT is bloated as it is.
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The MOT is a device to ensure income for testing stations and repair garages.
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>> There are some who are seemingly happy to submit their cars to an expensive, inconvenient,
>> and dubiously effective inspection scheme, but don't want a checking system on their car which
>> has a much greater chance of saving their skin.
Given that these same people cant be bothered to check tread depth unless its pointed out to them annually, I doubt they will bother to check reasons for a warning light.
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I no longer want to prod and poke the oily bits.
I no longer want to prostrate myself on the road exploring my tyre inner wall or its tread.
I no longer want to tie up my exhaust box with wire coat hangers or many of the things I was forced to do in the past.
I prefer to get my man to do those things.
I am happier sitting in my leather chair behind the wheel watching thr fairy lights and trying to guess what they mean.
I still hanker after the Citroen SM approach to the situation. If the fault is critical illuminate a BIG red red disk in the middle of your view with STOP writ large.
Oh!, on second thoughts perhaps it would just elicit the question " Stop what?" or even an emergency braking. ( with braking assist of course )
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>> an easily ignored light is no better
What if the 'warning light' is a text display saying you have lost tyre pressure? Or saying you have a flat tyre? And what if the system also monitors the tyre pressure in the spare wheel for you?
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>> >> an easily ignored light is no better
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>> What if the 'warning light' is a text display saying you have lost tyre pressure?
>> Or saying you have a flat tyre? And what if the system also monitors the
>> tyre pressure in the spare wheel for you?
What about when its given you the 5th wrong warning of the month? what about when you look at the car and the tyres look ok, what about when you dont know how to fix it and just carry on driving.
Far fetched? all commonplace. NOTHING has less credibility on a car than tyre pressure warning devices.
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Some new trucks have more warning lights, indeed text messages than you can shake a stick at.
Several same make rental trucks 08 plates earlier this year gave spurious warning messages at frequent intervals.
Not once did these warnings correspond to real failures or problems.
The crying of wolf every few minutes failed to gain a response from the bloke at the helm after a while, he carried on doing it the old way with his mk1 eyeball and wits instead.
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>> What about when its given you the 5th wrong warning of the month?
Surely that's a trip to the garage? They're not impossible to fix. Not every dealer takes the Renault approach above and turns it off.
There's a flip side to this. There's a well known issue with VAG cars and a very large batch of problematic ESP control units. VAG more or less have you over a barrel with this one out of warranty (it's ~£1600 in parts IIRC). I'd say the primary reason they haven't had to handle this one properly is ESP is not currently a legal requirement and the ABS remains functional. VOSA are currently left to sit on their hands despite many reports and an attempt to intervene.
>> what about when you dont know how to fix it and just carry on driving
Not a fault of the system. With it being an MOT requirement, the longest you will be able to do this is 1 year. Currently you can just ignore it all you want. I admit i don't particularly mind if Jimmy Ignorant has a blow out but i do if he careers into my lane. EDIT: It's not unreasonable to say "hey, you've got a car, you're expected to maintain it ensuring it meets this criteria to use it on the road".
>> all commonplace
Yep you're right. Surely a reason to introduce this - the car would HAVE to be fixed in the case of problems.
>> NOTHING has less credibility on a car than tyre pressure warning devices
They aren't perfect. They're only a step forward in some areas but crucially there's no step backward involved here.
Last edited by: Skoda on Sun 21 Aug 11 at 11:55
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>> >> What about when its given you the 5th wrong warning of the month?
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>> Surely that's a trip to the garage? They're not impossible to fix. Not every dealer
>> takes the Renault approach above and turns it off.
No chance mate, given the fact they are wholly unreliable (yes all of them) there is no way i am toddling off to the dealer once a month to get the damn thing fixed or reset.
I bet no-one, including the people who thought up this rule, has any figures at all proving a safety benefit, that stand up to scrutiny in any way shape or form. Further I bet the driving force force/lobby behind this was the manufacturers. Any money you like this is driven by them, after more money from maintenance. They are guaranteed, yes guaranteed a service visit income every year, for a device that is up the spout for the other 11 months of the year.
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Just to bend this a little, given that Construction and Use regulations in this country differ from European standards, since when did the EU have the power to determine what is and what is not checked in our MOT testing standards? I don't recall this happening before?
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>> since when did the EU have the power to determine what
>> is and what is not checked in our MOT testing standards? I don't recall this
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I had the same thought Z. EU competence tends to move in only one direction but I couldn't recall any hoo ha in the press about this issue.
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Not familiar with EU Directive EC/2009/40/EC then?
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>> what about when you dont know how to fix it and just carry on driving
>> Not a fault of the system.
>> With it being an MOT requirement, the longest you will be able to do this is 1 year
Many people already treat ABS lights and airbag lights in the same way. It's usually only dirt in a multiplug connector anyway, it's finding which one that's the awkward part.
Last edited by: Dave_TDCi on Sun 21 Aug 11 at 12:23
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It would be more effective to test the driver's blood pressure rather than the tyres'.
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Tyre pressure monitors a new MoT Item- - swiss tony
