I think my air con needs re-gassing, it does cool the air, but nowhere near as much as it should ( I got into my dads Materia yesteray after mine and his was like a freezer compared to mine ).
So how much should I expect it to cost and am I right in thinking some of them come out to you?
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If you have lost gas you may have a leak so no point in topping up a leaking system. May people will come out and www.yell.com. for your area will get you started. KwikFit do a regass service and no fee if it doesn't fix it so that might be worth a look.
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I think a re-gas costs any where in the region from £20 - £70 depending on where you go
Kwick fit do a re-gas for around £40 with no charge if it does not take.
My Vauxhall dealer are/where offering a Aircon Service for £40
Last edited by: Redviper on Wed 3 Aug 11 at 12:33
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Cheers chaps, sounds reasonable.
My car is 7 years old, not sure how long the gas is supposed to last, I presume it doesnt work forever or there wouldnt be any need for re-gas services in the first place.
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I think on a average they need re-gassing every 4-5 years or so, that's what I've heard.
my 06 Vectra air-con still works but is no-where as cold as it should be, needs a re-gas which I will get done when it gets serviced
My partners 08 Citroen C4, also not as good as it was, just needs a re-gas. both have the air-con used frequently all year round.
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Mines likely never been done but with a holiday in cornwall next month, if the weather is still like this id rather like some ice cool air to sit in, even if teh wife will be sitting there with a blanket and gloves on, sissy. :-)
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When it is humid like it's been here for the last few days, aircon is more than just getting cool air. It de-humidifies the air too.
I had a Passat from 2000-2003 and just before the warranty was up the aircon was not cooling. Took it in and not only did it need a regas, something had broken off. I seem to recall it was a pulley or something - maybe related to the clutch on the climate control system?
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I had a car whose aircon is still working well @ 7 years old without any servicing at all. Used regularly though
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The aircon on my Focus hatch was still working well when I sold it at seven-years-old.
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Got the vectra 58 plate done last month the air condensor had a split on the seam and replaced under warranty, but vauxhall still have me pay the £48.00 for the gas even though it was a faulty part that leaked it out as they say it's a "service item".
It's very cold now and nice in this hot weather.:-)
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The Lancer is not the freezer that some cars are* but a temp probe down one of the vents reveals it can crank it down to 7c, so thats good enough
American cars used to have aircon that could freeze the snot in your nose solid. Nowdays they are weedy affairs.
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>>Mines likely never been done but with a holiday in cornwall next month
You realise that after all this angst about getting it re-gassed is now the equivalent of a rain-dance?
I bet it snows next month!
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>> I think on a average they need re-gassing every 4-5 years or so, that's what I've heard.>>
A check is recommended every two years - it takes about two minutes to check how cold the system throughput gets and whether it needs re-gassing.
A re-gas is normally about £50 but, if a relief valve or similar has failed over the years, then it can be up to three times more than that. Leaks are traced using a dye.
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I spoke to a a chap just now and he said from the symptoms and my answers to his questions, it sounded ripe for a re-gas. £49 all in. Seems reasonable price for the comfort.
The air con clutch was changed when I bought the car as it squealed at idle and teh compressor cuts in no probs.
The aircon actually does get colder over about 10 miles but never really as cold as id expect.
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>>not sure how long the gas is supposed to last
Well my 11yr old Megane has never needed any work to the air con and it still works perfectly. What it has had done is regular pollen filter replacements. Could it be that your pollen filter is clogged up, affecting the air con?
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I think its fair to say my car may well have suffered from not having the air con used for long periods, its 7 years old and still only done 29k, 7k of that since Feb.
Checked, mine doesnt have a pollen filter.
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A car with a/c and no pollen filter - is this normal? I thought the two went together
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Did they have them in the 70's then?
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Wow! I though you said it was 7 years old, not a 70s car!
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He did say it was 7 years old! At 1258 today
Last edited by: Meldrew on Wed 3 Aug 11 at 17:56
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Indeed but the suggestion was that a/c always came with pollen filters. I cant recall much about pollen filters in cars before the mid-90's.
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I thought the two went together but if they don't then they don't and if you can't find one then you have't got one
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Or it could have been fitted with one which has been removed and not replaced !
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Rang the dealer, dont have one, never had one.
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By coincidence I have just got back from having my A/C checked and regassed.
My man says three years is quite a comman gap between regassing but mine went two and a half years.
He did a U/V check for dye leaks and also a gas sniffer but nowt found.
The is a new bit of kit. They empty the system, fill it with a " special" gas that will leak out easier that refrigerant and can be detected by another sort of sensor.
My daughters Yaris is still OK after About 6/7 years.
My man says many far east vehicles of all brands and prices quite often suffer from coroded pipes. European makes are much better.
Pipe replacement is part of his meal ticket.
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>> My man says many far east vehicles of all brands and prices quite often suffer
>> from coroded pipes. European makes are much better.
>> Pipe replacement is part of his meal ticket.
I had to have the condensor and a leaking pipe near the front replaced under warranty when I bought my Avensis, though to be fair it has done a lot of high speed motorway mileage.
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It's best to leave A/C on permanently so that the seals etc are kept lubricated.
As my Jetta was four years old recently I had the A/C checked. It was registering a minimum of 0 degrees C, so didn't need re-gassing.
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>> It's best to leave A/C on permanently so that the seals etc are kept lubricated.
>>
Seemingly a myth perpetuated by you without evidence.
www.car4play.com/forum/post/index.htm?t=6368&m=142004&v=e
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The bloke that checks my A/C has forgotten more about car air conditioning systems than most people in the trade know...:-)
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Blimey, wouldn't use a bloke that forgets stuff.
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Entirely possible, but not much of a recommendation if it means - as it could - that he now knows nothing.
The original Saab 900 had a pollen filter in 1978. Not sure if it was the first Saab to have one, but I don't think many had air conditioning, at least not in the UK.
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Leakage from air conditioning systems is a process which takes time.
You typically have 700 grammes of refrigerant, and a couple of hundred grammes of oil in the system. At reasonable temperatures, the system is always under pressure, even when the system is switched off.
So, if you don't use the system, that doesn't stop leakage from any source - pipe, joint, seal, heat exchanger, drier, or compressor.
If you leave a system unused, there's a good chance that when you come to start it up again, you find it doesn't work - simply because the refrigerant has has TIME to leak away.
When you test a car's air conditioning system prior to refilling with gas, it is not a quick and easy test to make sure that the system will remain viable for more than a couple of years. Typically, a fairly lax vacuum leakage test is done which lasts for half an hour, or perhaps even an hour - not really long enough.
Consider the leakage rates involved - to get a system that will run for more than a couple of years, you're going to find it difficult to measure that leak in the time frame of an hour or so.
I believe this pair of events, namely system inactivity and failure is incorrectly linked as cause and effect, and like so many pieces of automotive folklore it does have an ostensibly credible mechanism at its core.
I have never seen or read any hard evidence for this idea of compressor seal lubrication, and having had a number of compressors apart, I haven't seen how this failiure mechanism could actually be true.
For me, nothing short of evidence will sway me to accept this, and so, I currentyl say it's a myth!
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NC is on the money. I've got spare seals in the garage, unused for 12 years. They're still as good as new.
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>> As my Jetta was four years old recently I had the A/C checked. It was
>> registering a minimum of 0 degrees C, so didn't need re-gassing.
It shouldn't be that low, the system would freeze up. It should be 5c
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Well it hasn't in the time I've had it since last October...:-) I saw the cold air output temperature readout and got the news that it was working fine.
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It cant be 0c at the vents, to get that it would need to be colder further in the vent ducting, and stuff in there would freeze up. In fact I am not sure a car system is capable of 0C as the system is not lagged.
The VW manuals specify 5c
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Well the refigerant boils at something like -30, so in theory it's possible to get down to this temperature. But any condensation on the evaporator will freeze and block airflow. Unless humidity is almost zero, then it will work.
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Yeah - You would need to lag all the pipework, condensation would form and freeze on the exterior of the ducting. The evaporator would freeze and stop evaporating.
Last edited by: Zero on Wed 3 Aug 11 at 21:53
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>>Well the refrigerant boils at something like –30<<
If it’s R134A, at atmospheric pressure it does, but not at the backpressure which should be present in an air-con system.
My Xantia is 12 years old. I’ve had it for the last 8 years, and the service history shows no work on the aircon system since the car was new. I suspect that it has lost some refrigerant by now but I will be testing that when I get a chance by measuring the relevant temperatures and pressures in the system. R134a, apparently, can migrate through flexible hoses and mechanical joint seals. Running the compressor must increase the chance of its lip seal leaking. I don’t run my aircon unless I need it.
I have the relevant data for testing my system, for example at 25 degrees ambient temperature the following figures are quoted:
Low pressure 2,5 bar(g) +/- 0,3 bar
High pressure 21 bar(g) +/- 3,0 bar.
Air temperature at the central vents 5 to 8 degrees C
At the pressures quoted the evaporating temperature of the refrigerant is +5 degrees C and the condensing temperature is 72 degrees C.
I suspect that these operating parameters are pretty typical whatever the vehicle. Zero's vent temperature isn't far away.
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And don't forget one very important thing and that is the accuracy of the measuring device for checking temperature outputs at, say, the car's vents, during any tests.
Accuracy, calibration and reproducibility are always important parameters to take into account with equipment that may not always be treated with care in garages etc.
I bought a digital thermometer, with probe, for less than £20 and came to all sorts of conclusions about my car's vent temps. with the aircon on and one day decided to use the experience of my past career and check the range and accuracy of this thermometer.
Of course now, not being in the lab. I don't have many 'fixed point's I can use for this purpose but I have access to melting ice in, say, a vacuum flask and also to steam/water from constant boiling water. Suffice it to say that at at 0°C or as near as damn it, my digital thermometer was reading high by a significant amount (can't remember exactly) but about 1.5 to 2°C.
I opened up the thermometer's case and managed to tweak one or two potentiometers that brought the reading nearer to 0°C and was pleased with that. The boiling point reading was within commendable limits, for me at least
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Well, the Octy is booked in for a re-gas at Kwik Fit tomorrow morning, as it doesnt produce any cold air at present. Will report back tomorrow with the verdict.
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Cheers Al, I await your report :-)
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Our Clio is 13 this year and still blows cold, it has never had its aircon attended to.
Our 120i is 6 this year and blows cold with no evidence of any work on the system. (likewise of course the 18 month old 123d).
The Mondeo had a re-gas at 6 years old and was not to cold when sold last year at 8 years old so probably had a small leak.
I had a Vectra that dumped all of its gas when only a few months old.
They vary though I do subscribe to the regular-use-is-better argument, as with any device it is likely to be more reliable if used little and often than if turned off for six months and then expected to work fully.
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Nigh on 200k miles and 9 years old my Mondeo was. Still had fully functional AC. Good car that was...Would've been ideal for the dog too, but no, she wanted a Qashqai. Years of life left in that Ford. Pah !
:-(
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>> Nigh on 200k miles and 9 years old my Mondeo was. Still had fully functional
>> AC. Good car that was...Would've been ideal for the dog too, but no, she wanted
>> a Qashqai. Years of life left in that Ford. Pah !
But 'she's' got her own Qashqai. So why sell the old stager? Funny - they rate the Nissan as pretty good in most reviews,and against a Mondeo it would probably win. But not according to some like yourself. I drove a petrol Mondeo Zetec and it was OK but nothing special, although I do concede it did go around corners well. But the seats were all wrong. Of course a TDCi with Ghia X seats might be a different beast altogether.
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Different cars "fit" different people I suppose. The Qq is comfy enough for boodling about in but I'm like a bent hatpin after a whole day in it. I could cross Europe in the old Mondy without a twinge. Never really enjoyed driving sitty-uppy cars. Makes me feel like a meerkat on a bar stool.
Desperately trying to think how to swing this back around to AC re-gassing...
:-)
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No chance with me around :)
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"At the pressures quoted the evaporating temperature of the refrigerant is +5 degrees C"
Not true, I'm afraid. The compressor is turned off when the evaporator gets down to 5 deg, or the compressor is 'throttled' back. This way the condensation won't freeze and block airflow to the cabin.
R134 was also used in domestic freezers, which will run down to -30 - the boiling point of the refrigerant.
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>>Not true, I'm afraid. The compressor is turned off when the evaporator gets down to 5 deg<<
The figures are taken from the official Citroen aircon test data. +5 degrees is the coldest it is designed to run at. At that evaporating temperature the air temperature at the centre vents should be +8 degrees C.
The aircon will not usually run in an ambient air temperature of 5 degrees or below, but to achieve an air temperature of 5 degrees the evaporator has to run several degrees cooler than the air.
A freezer is designed to hold stuff at about -18/-20 degrees. I would expect an evaporating temperature of about -25 to be used.
R134A, at atmospheric pressure evaporates at about -27. (I haven't the figures at home, I do at work.) Generally it is bad practice to run an evaporating temperature which needs a back pressure below atmospheric. Any leak then means the system sucks in atmospheric air complete with the system killer, moisture. All "separate" systems that I have seen have had at least one low pressure switch installed to stop the compressor pulling a back pressure below atmospheric.
Car air-con compressors are variable output, they have to be to compensate for the variable load and varying speed at which they are run. I would expect the TEV fitted to the evaporator to regulate the system.
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Some car compressors are variable output, but not all by any means. The evaporator temperature is held at 5, but the temperature of the evaporating refrigerant is much lower, -27c. Just like the temperature of an electric fire is much higher than the room temperature.
There are, and have been, numerous ways to maintain the evaporator (not evaporating) temperature in vehicles - cycling the compressor was the main way, but also bypassing the excess was popular some years back. Now it's variable output compressors generally. The TXV or TEV is solely to regulate the flow of refrigerant such that the evaporater isn't flooded at low loads, therby allowing all the refrigerant entering the evaporator to fully vapourise - at -27c
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>>The evaporator temperature is held at 5, but the temperature of the evaporating refrigerant is much lower, -27c. <<
The temperature at which the refrigerant boils depends upon the pressure in the evaporator. If that pressure is changed then the evaporating temperature of the refrigerant changes. If the evaporator was at atmospheric pressure then the refrigerant would boil at –26,22 degrees C. If the pressure in the evaporator was at 1 bar gauge then that temperature would rise to –10 degrees C. It’s the same as water, it boils at 100 degrees C at sea level but that boiling temperature drops at lower atmospheric pressures. At the top of Everest, it boils at 69 degrees C. (about right for coffee but too cold for tea).
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Well as mentioned above (before the thread drifted) I took the Octy to Kwik fit today.
The good news: Good service, my aircon does not leak, and as they could not improve the cooling I will get a full refund to my card in due course.
The bad news: The aircon still doesnt work propertly.:(
Would it be worth changing the pollen filter? If not, its probably time to consult an a/c specialist.
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Its certainly worth taking it out to see what state its in,
Is plenty of air (warm or cold) coming out the vents?
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The air is all warm (or at least uncooled), and there seems plenty. Per the Kwik fit guy the system is doing all that it should, just with no final product. I'll have a poke about for the filter over the weekend.
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>> The air is all warm (or at least uncooled), and there seems plenty.
You may have a problem with the air blending flap which could be stuck in the warm position.
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Looked at an Octy tdi 05 today with a/c inop.Not good news i'm afraid ,the compressor is faulty.A very common problem on late vag models.If only every car was as unreliable as a volkswagen.
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What were the low and hih side pressures when the compressor was engaged?
If the expansion valve is blocked, you can get odd problems.
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Ulp. This is starting to sound a bit dear. I don't know what the pressures were, NC. All the operator said was 'It didn't work'
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The clue is in the name .Kwik- fit not Kwik-fix.
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>> The clue is in the name .Kwik- fit not Kwik-fix.
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Yes, I couldn't agree more.
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Air con re-gas - Meldrew
